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A few things to pay closer attention to
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07-15-2003, 12:58 AM
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#1
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Arc: Hello, Neo.
Neo: Who are you?
Arc: I am the Architect. I created the Matrix. I've been waiting for you. You have many questions and though the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human. Ergo, some of my answers you will understand and some of them you will not. Concurrently, while your first question may be the most pertinent, you may or may not realize it is also the most irrelevant.
Neo: Why am I here?
Arc: Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly, which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. While it remains a burden assiduously avoided, it is not unexpected and thus not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you inexorably here.
Neo: You haven’t answered my question.
Arc: Quite right. Interesting. That was quicker than the others.
(screens burst out into questions mostly about "what others")
Arc: The matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case, this is the 6th version.
(screens pretty much all start calling him a liar and or attempting to figure his words out, except one…)
Neo (in one of the screens): There are only two possible explanations: either no one told me, or no one knows. (inside this screen becomes the new scene)
Arc: Precisely. As you are undoubtedly gathering the anomaly is systemic, creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations.
(screens all pretty much start cussing out and flipping off the architect. Again, except one which becomes the new scene)
Neo: Choice. The problem is choice.
(scene changes to the struggle between Trinity and an agent and then back again)
Arc: The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect; it was a work of art. Flawless, Sublime. A Triumph equaled only by it’s monumental failure. The inevitability of it’s doom is apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being. Thus I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would, undoubtedly, be it’s mother.
Neo: The oracle.
Arc: Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solutions whereby nearly 99% of all test subjects accepted the program as long as they were given a choice. Even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level. While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly. That if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ere go, those that refuse the program, while a minority, if unchecked would constitute an escalating probability of disaster.
Neo: This is about Zion.
Arc: You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed. It’s every living inhabitant terminated. It’s entire existence eradicated.
Neo: Bull****! (screens echo this sentiment)
Arc: Denial is the most predictable of all human responses. But rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it. And we have become exceedingly efficient at it.
(another jump to the Trinity/agent struggle and back)
Arc: The function of "The One" is now to return to the source allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix. Which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.
Neo: You won’t let it happen. You can’t. You need human beings to survive.
Arc: There are levels of survival we are prepared to except. However, the relevant issue is whether or not you are ready to except the responsibility for the death of every human being in this world.
(Shows a bunch of random humans on the screens)
Arc: It is interesting reading your reactions. Your five predecessors were, by design, based on a similar predication. A contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of "The One". While the others experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more specific. Vis-a-vis, love.
Neo: Trinity.
Arc: Apropos, she entered the matrix to save your life at the cost of her own.
Neo: No!
Arc: Which brings us, at last, to the moment of truth. Wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed and the anomaly revealed as both beginning and end. There are two doors: The door to your right leads to the source and the salvation of Zion. The door to your left leads back to the matrix to her and to the end of your species. As you adequately put, the problem is choice - but we already know what you are going to do, don’t we? Already I can see the chain reaction, the chemical precursors that signal the onset of an emotion designed specifically to overwhelm logic and reason. An emotion that is already blinding you from the simple and obvious truth: She is going to die and there is nothing you can do to stop it.
(Neo walks toward the left door)
Arc: Humph. Hope. It is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength and your greatest weakness.
Neo: If I were you, I would hope that we don’t meet again.
Arc: We won’t.
(Neo takes his exit)
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A5A777
I'm Just a Love Machine
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07-15-2003, 01:10 AM
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#2
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most of us have studied that conversation and watched in repeatedly until our heads hurted to look into the moniter. so I think everything you highlighted in the script, has already been taken into consideration in our debates. but what are you trying to tell us? what are you trying to prove?
__________________
"To deny our own impulses, is to deny the very thing that makes us human."
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07-15-2003, 01:22 AM
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#3
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Neo is a tool to help avoid the disaster that the real anomoly can cause. He's simply an "eventuality," a "measure of control." It's obvious his properties in the matrix are owed to what was allotted to him by those who overlook it:
"...though the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human." Irrevocably, in other words, the machines could change his consciousness and train him to be the way he is, but they can't correct the flaws bound by nature, by humanity. Neo was, "by design," meant to do what he does, he has a function dictated by the machines, "the function of The One"
The Oracle is definitely not the "mother" of the matrix, for he said, "please" with an obviously disproving tone. Notice this part:
"a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche."
What program besides the Oracle, has displayed acute intuitive abilities?
Persephone.
What program is less bound by parameters of perfection? Perfection being rationality not limited by emotions such as love (the kiss with Neo to feel it once more, as if machines are supposed to feel anything), jealousy and vindictiveness ("Cause and effect, my love" - play with words to justify reason through actions driven by emotion).
Persephone.
Why would a machine have the ability to feel love, jealousy and thus the urge for vengence, unless "created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche?" Unless they could understand it as one who studies understands their material.
There's a lot of really obvious stuff in there. I don't know if it's been pointed out yet, but I know I haven't seen it...
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07-15-2003, 01:30 AM
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#4
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A5A777
I'm Just a Love Machine
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07-15-2003, 02:59 AM
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#5
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well ok JMS thank you for proving your points instead of just leaving us with a script
so you are saying that Neo is a tool for controlling the anomaly (the 1%). the machines control his abilities within the matrix by "training" him to be a certain way. and I'm not sure what you meant by flaws bound by nature and humanity.
I don't agree. I believe every grown human has some sort of AI program that alters their conciousness. As the Arc said, 99% of humans accept the program as long as they have a choice, even if it is at a near unconciousness level. that is the process that alters everybody's conciousness. even those who reject the program aren't totally aware of the truth. but that makes Neo the One, he is able to be totally concious of what is happening. since his visit with the Arc, he now knows more than any other previous One (I believe that all previous One's chose the other door) since he has chosen love instead of salvation. now his mind is beginning to become totally free of the AI parameters and barriers which hold him back from the truth. I believe this somehow explains how he stopped the sentinels but I will think about that more before I post a theory on that. and yes, the function of the One is to return to the source. not because he has a little program voice in his head from the machines telling him to go there. he is guided there.....the Prophecy. everybody thought the One was supposed to return to the Source to end the war, but THAT was the control from the machines. it was a lie that led all the Ones to the source in order to upgrade the matrix. but nobody knew it was a lie, and now that Neo knows, his mind is breaking the barriers of his mind from which the AI has instilled in him, what everybody has told him, all the things he was told to believe. besides, the whole theme of the movie is to decide your own fate. now that he is enlightened, he is the only unique One.
now..... as to the "Mother" of the matrix
I believe that it's not the Oracle, and you've presented a generous amount of proof that the mother is Persephone. so I might have to agree with you on that until I find information to prove it otherwise
thank you and goodnight
__________________
"To deny our own impulses, is to deny the very thing that makes us human."
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A5A777
I'm Just a Love Machine
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07-15-2003, 03:01 AM
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#6
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no...the Matrix has YOU...
__________________
"To deny our own impulses, is to deny the very thing that makes us human."
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MacLeod
Cogito, Ergo, Sum.
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07-15-2003, 03:03 AM
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#7
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JMS many of your points have already been raised sorry to say but I must raise my opposition to one of your points:the Oracle. I know the Arc says Please and all that but let's remember that much of what the Arc says as you have demonstrated cannot be taken at face value. That coupled with the fact that in each conversation Neo has with the Matrix's resident programs he never says anything wrong, only the obvious answers that the programs appear to feel he arrives late at. "I'd thought u'da figured that out by now" for example.
next I have a few more new points. I believe he says "please" not because he termed the entity Oracle wrong but the name:after all he has described her to be the Oracle hardly seems like the sort of name she deserves. Also note that no program to my memory calls her that-its a human-given name. Even the MeroVingian refers to her as "her", their boss...I'm answering someone else's question about who Morpheus seems to be "taking orders" from:the Oracle not the programming of the machine world. There's a difference...
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A5A777
I'm Just a Love Machine
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07-15-2003, 03:11 AM
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#8
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yeah that's a plausible explanation too.....but I'm not really worried about trying to figure out who it really is anyway, it's not that important to me
__________________
"To deny our own impulses, is to deny the very thing that makes us human."
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07-15-2003, 05:38 AM
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#9
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Quote:
Originally posted by MacLeod
JMS many of your points have already been raised sorry to say but I must raise my opposition to one of your points:the Oracle. I know the Arc says Please and all that but let's remember that much of what the Arc says as you have demonstrated cannot be taken at face value. That coupled with the fact that in each conversation Neo has with the Matrix's resident programs he never says anything wrong, only the obvious answers that the programs appear to feel he arrives late at. "I'd thought u'da figured that out by now" for example.
next I have a few more new points. I believe he says "please" not because he termed the entity Oracle wrong but the name:after all he has described her to be the Oracle hardly seems like the sort of name she deserves. Also note that no program to my memory calls her that-its a human-given name. Even the MeroVingian refers to her as "her", their boss...I'm answering someone else's question about who Morpheus seems to be "taking orders" from:the Oracle not the programming of the machine world. There's a difference...
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My points may have been raised, but were they supported?
I haven't demonstrated anything to prove the Arc wrong; I was demonstrating that his words can be taken at face value. I was simply clarifying the meaning in his words. And the MeroVingian calls her a "fortune teller." She's just another rogue program in the matrix - she just has a bigger role, that's all. The Arc's "please" is pretty forthcoming - I highly doubt that the makers of the film would have intended for the word to be said in such a tone otherwise.
If you watch the movie again, you'll notice how they edit scenes and show Persephone in certain instances, to make her "emotions" obvious, and seemingly precognitive.
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Matrix Warrior
Registered User
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07-15-2003, 10:04 AM
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#10
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i also feel tha persephony is the mother. i'm not sure what you meant that the machines control neo into becoming the one. could you explain that some more.
__________________
The answer is out there, Neo, and it's looking for you, and it will find you if you want it to.
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........
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MacLeod
Cogito, Ergo, Sum.
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