In another forum on this site, the following question was posted to me. Given its unrelated nature to the Matrix. I have moved the discussion here. Follow it if you like; don't if you don't.



As I have posted in another area, the handshakes (we call them grips or tokens) are one of the methods by which we identify each other as Masons. These are our only "secrets". I am sure other fraternities, Alpha Phi Alpha for instance, have methods by which to distinguish other members of their fraternity, especially since many college fraternities have taken some of their structure from Freemasonry. Our grips and passwords are one of the very few things I will not divulge to a non-Mason.



This is, of course, a common question. I don't know how this would be handled. My guess is that most lodges would not accept someone who held this belief. I would further guess that such a person would not petition for membership in a Masonic lodge in the first place alleviating the whole issue. ;)

However, that having been said, each lodge determines its own membership by ballot, usually requiring that it be unanimously favorable. And given that there are 6 million Masons in the world, I suppose it might be possible to find some small number out there that would fit such a description. If that person is out there, I haven't met him.

On the other hand, some religious faiths consider Freemasonry to be Satanically inspired in its entirety. Since I don't accept the existence of "Satan", I certainly don't accept that interpretation, either.

G.A.O.T.U.

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Do freemasons believe in God, or just a supreme being?Do you guys read the bible?Just wondering...;)

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Please igore bongsan G.A.T.O.U and please continue with your thread. It looks as if he is now banned anyway. Being brought up with a Catholic background, and having a mother who is one of those evangalistic Ministers, I have no insight into your religion, however, the secret hand shake would be like calling another Morman an Elder, would it not?


UT

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UT, Freemasonry is not a religion. It has many religious aspects, like opening with prayer. There is always a Volume of Sacred Law open during lodge meetings.. However, the specific book (e.g. Bible, Koran, Torah, etc) may vary depending on the geography of the lodge.

Freemasonry is a Fraternity. Its members all profess a belief in Deity. One's specific beliefs need not be more defined than that. While the vast majority of Masons are Christian, one lodge I belong to has Jews, Moslems, Buddhists, Hindus, Taoists, Deists, and maybe a couple of other faiths. I have met other Masons who are Wiccan, Shinto, and maybe others, too.

Freemasonry's teachings are not dogmatic. They are simply symbolic, using the working tools of ancient operative stonemasons and the building of King Solomon's Temple as its main metaphor. These symols can then be used to go back to one's religious faith and see them from a different view point.

The "handshakes" and other "secrets" are simply means of identifying each other as Masons.

G.A.O.T.U.

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This is probably a stupid question, but...............

Since Freemasonry is not a religion, and includes as it's members people of all backgrounds and faiths, is it just more like a club than anything else? I know that's over-simplyfying it a bit, though.

And would you mind divulging on the Freemasonry teachings a bit? Of course I've heard of the group, but I've got no idea what the dogma actually is. How do you define a Freemason? (Not as is 'identify', but why would you be a member rather than simply stick to your original, basic religious beliefs? Sorry, not worded very well)

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Freemasonry always works on a fraternal, moral and philoshophical level. Inasmuch as it is a fraternity, it is a "club".

Its teachings are moral and philosophical. See below.




On a moral basis, it fosters the ideas of faith, hope and charity, otherwise worded as Brotherly Love, Relief and Truth.

There are a number of reasons that (predominantly) men join Freemasonry. For some, there is a strong family connection. For others, it is because of friends or co-workers.

Some are attracted by the charitable work. Masons in total give $2 million every day to charity.

Others enjoy the fraternal aspect. While there are lodges that admit women or a mix or men and women (these are very much a minority and are parts of jurisdicitions that are not considered "mainstream"), Freemasonry is mostly a men's organization. The abiltiy for men to gather in a private place and simply be among "like-minded" men is attractive to many of our members.

Keep in mind that I used the word private, not secret. Our lodges are private just like your home is private. I have no business being in your house unless you invite me in. If I am not invited, would that suggest that you are doing something "secret" and "wrong"? No, it just means it is not my business.

I tend to enjoy the philosophical elements most of all. I truly enjoy symbols and esoteric thought. This is one of the reasons I liked the Matrix movies, especially M2. I like the fact that the W's have been able to weave many of the traditional and ancient philosophical threads into their movies, even if they have been juiced up a bit for the contemporary person.

By and large Freemasonry is a throw-back, as well. Its pursuits of Wisdom, Stength and Beauty seem anachronistic in today's world. The study of the Seven Liberal Arts and Sciences (Grammar, Rhetoric, Logic, Arithmetic, Geometry, Music and Astronomy) seems equally out of date.

However, I would disagree. I think these enduring ideas and concepts have more to teach the "modern" person than most would admit. Concepts like honor and virtue are in very short supply nowadays. But they are popular. I think that was one of the reasons The Gladiato was so popular ("Strentgh and honor!"). I know I don't always live up to these ideas but they are there as an ideal.

One of the reasons that Freemasonry can be an important adjunct to religious faith is that it absolutely recognizes that there are duties we need to attend to in the "real" world. Freemasonry teaches nothing about "salvation" and how to reach "heaven". Its broadest religious concepts can be identified as:

-There is a Supreme Being/Intelligence or First Cause
-There is some form of existence after death
-We ought to take care of each other while we are here

None of its teachings are dogmatic, meaning that it is absolutely up to the individual to discern the meaning for himself and apply the ideas to his life as he understands them. There are certainly Masons who would not agree with my interpretation of the three main concepts I just outlined, but that is their interpretation to make. No Grand Master can force his opinions onto anyone.

There are few places in today's world away from it all where we can have these kind of philosophical discussions and meet each other as people rather than according to our profession, religious faith, etc. Lodges can be places where our members can explore these big questions.

I like the Matrix movies, as well as this forum, because they have caused some people to explore some of these same themes. The main difference is that in these internet forums, we are all pretend people hiding behind user names and avatars. That is the nature of modern society. Lodges are throw-backs to when people actually met each other face-to-face and got to know one another.

G.A.O.T.U.

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Many Catholic leaders have written that Catholic beliefs are incompatible with Freemasonry. That is their interpretation to make. I know quite a number of Catholics who are Masons. And some of them are quite knowledgable in Catholic ideology as well as Freemasonry.

Cardinal Law, who recently resigned amid scandal in Boston, has written of the issues of Catholics and Freemasonry. I will point you to the following url for more information.

http://www.catholic.net/rcc/Periodi...9-96/11/11.html



Freemasonry is silent on this subject. Freemasonry neither includes nor excludes Jesus. It neither includes nor excludes Mohammed, Buddha, Lao Tzu, Ahura Mazda, Zoroaster, Mithra, etc (not that this list is comprised of "gods").

It is primarily for this reason that strongly dogmatic Christian religions, in particular, condemn Freemasonry. Masonic lodges have Chaplains. They say a prayer at the beginning and the end of lodge meetings. It is inappropriate for him to include the name of any particular Deity. Instead, we use a generic term, the Supreme Architect of the Universe, or something like it (Grand Geometrician of the Universe, etc.).

It is inappropriate for the Chaplain to use such a specific name because to define one name is deny all others. Since our members are of many faiths, this would insult all others and interfere with the harmony of the lodge.

I am not a Christian in the sense that I believe that Jesus was "God". I think if more people followed what Jesus called the "greates commandment" rather than arguing over whether he is or isn't "god" that the world would be a much better place (see Matthew 22:34-40).

I am not sure I understand the second part of this question, the one contained in parentheses. Are you asking if Freemasonry teaches that we can become "god"? If that is your question, I would say "no" but I would also refer you to 1Corinthians 3:16 (Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?)

It is my interpretation that Masonic symbolism can be interpreted as indicating the Man is a unique being that can reconcile the Material with the Spiritual.



You can read books about being in love. You can read poetry or watch romantic movies. But until you have been in love, you know nothing.

Masonic ritual is designed to be experienced. Similalry, even if you read the words of the rituals from Duncan's Ritual you will lack the frame of reference. Masonic ritual is a series of physical experiences (not hazing, mind you) that are designed to provide a deep and lasting impression that hopefully instills in the candidate an interest in investigating the various meanings of the degrees.

The initiatory experience is very much like Morpheus' admonishment to Neo to "wake up". We simply do it without the red pill.




Are you asking me if Freemasonry contains a theosophical element a la Madame Blavatsky? This is not an easy question and the answer is convoluted.

Do I think that there is a "secret" that has been passed down directly from the ancients through today and Freemasonry has been one of the stewards of that "secret"? No, I don't.

However, I am a big picture person. I tend to look for patterns and trends. I investigate the detail enough to see how things fit into that pattern and then I tend to dwell on the big picture piece again.

No one knows exactly where Masonic ritual came from. It may have come from some ancient lineage, or it was written de novo somewhere in the 1500's or 1600's. If it was newly written in this more modern period, chances are that the author(s) reached back in time to find many ideas and put them together in a fairly coherent system of philosophy.

So for me, after you peel away the dogmatic elements of philosophies and religions, you end up with most traditions saying pretty much the same thing. To me, that fundamental meaning is embodied in the following symbol:



This picture is not directly a Masonic symbol. To make it an actual Masonic symbol, you have to strip off the numbers and text. The underlying symbol is the 47th Problem of Euclid, otherwise known as the Pythagorean Theorum It is, to me, the quintessential Masonic symbol and, to me, contains all of its lessons.

G.A.O.T.U.

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that was really interesting.

thus i would recommend to anyone interested in the subject to read more about the interpretations about freemasonry, since you don't want to talk about the enlightement, "christ state", or whatever you call that and the definite conflict with views of the catholic church.(but that is a sensible subject on which i know you are not allowed to discuss, so i fully respect your decision)

btw,i don't believe in any religion but that doesn't mean i'm not interested by the subject, i wonder how shintoism could have fit into that.

thanx again, that was really my read of the day.