Will artificial intelligence really win over humans?

The human mind is faster than any computer,machine or equipment.Its the human mind that sets forth the commands for the machines to work.So if artificial intelligence ever attacks us it would be the work of some devilish mind of a man.For example we have the computer virus.This pulse is being constantly put online by someone not something.So if the artificial intelligence ever attacks we have to combat the mind behind it and not the servant machines.

you kind of contradict yourself there neo2005 man controls machines because they have no AI, we would probaly not have 'complete' control over AI in all its glory thus it would not be ai just a mindless computing program, and to attack the "mind behind just use yet another computer virus.

and about the human mind being faster than any computer you should read the thread "brain vs. computer"

Originally posted by neo2005
The human mind is faster than any computer,machine or equipment.Its the human mind that sets forth the commands for the machines to work.So if artificial intelligence ever attacks us it would be the work of some devilish mind of a man.For example we have the computer virus.This pulse is being constantly put online by someone not something.So if the artificial intelligence ever attacks we have to combat the mind behind it and not the servant machines.

i agree with you neo2005, but when a human creates a program, being a new secruity program, they invent backdoors so that if anything does go wrong they are able to get quick access to it.
just like AI, no humans are completly 100% perfect, so their programs and AI projects will always have weakness, and this can only be fixed, if he programmer admits he is wrong (which is proberly the hardest thing to do)

its only when programs start making programs that we have to watch out for.

I think that the human mind is slower than computers by a lot. For example. you iknow those dumb chess games on the computer? Humans take like hours to think of a move, while computers can calculate the probability of winning based on one move, calculate the best possible move, calculate your best possible counter move, and do a million other things all at once. Sadly, the computer mind is much faster than the humans. It just lacks the ability to think for it self. When computers become "self-aware", then we really have to watch out

Actually you are wrong. Chess computers are not very fast at all. Secondly, people are still beating the best of chess computers.

Thirdly, we are not using our full capacity, a CPU of a computer is. Try using about 10% of the CPU of the computer and than compare.

Don't forget that chinese can count faster than a calculator with one of them math-racks, or whatever you call them...

HU

its called an abacus HU

back to topic, we will win. WE use the full capacity of our brains, we would beat the smartest of computers. they would have no chance.

or, we could challenge them to a chess game

Has anyone ever heard of the Chess computer, "Big Blue" supposed to be the best of these chess comps

Yes, but it is commonly known as "Deep blue' created by IBM/Kasporov.
Its actually a very interesting story to why it got created:
When Kasparov whipped an earlier version of Deep Blue in February, 1996, he won by exploiting weaknesses he detected in the first game. In a sense, he "psyched out" the computer, recognizing that if he played unconventionally, the machine would be forced outside its programming.

Sounds very matrix like doesnt it?

HU....that i sa lie, saying that you can count faster with an abacus than with a calculator. A calculator can make hundreds of calculations in a second...no human can do that.

Human mind is slower that a computer, it doesn't mathar if we use 10 or 15% of it, that fact is that we are slower...and we will always be. Becausa a machine has no stress, is never tired, it can never forget some part of tha calculation, and never has trouble remembering things, in conclusion, a machine has no life.


Also, a machine has no imagination. It operates in certain parameters created by the programmer, so it will always be limited here.

also, corrct m eif I am wrong but the fastest way to beat the crap out of a machine will always be an EMP discharge, So if we have them ready all the time (when and IF the AI is created and rebels against us).

Lets just put it this way, AI is like an iron bar. An iron bar is much stronger than a human arm, but the iron bar alone has no live, it is useless. It needs man in orther to became useful.

EMP isnt as easy of a solution as you think machinery can be protected from EMP all military vehicles and especially aircraft are EMP protected its in the paint, and do you really think the machines would not use this to their advantage

machines have no imagination but they are extremely good at adapting or upgrading old systems and parts

and once they get to the state of advancement the arm that lifts the bar will no longer be made of flesh (human) but it will be made of steel and silicon

an AI 'works' in certain perametres but eventually the AI will be the programmers and their will be no perametres


The machine is the future !!!

Yes, AI can learn to program itself, what would be unnecessary because if it was already artificial inteligence, there would be nothing more to program. But the paramters I refer are the rules inherent to eletronic devices: The rules of logic and math. A machine would never act against logic, or against mathematical probabilities, because all of it's sistems work based on that rules.

We, humans, do not.

:)





( I just think that AI will always serve us because there will never be an universal AI as in the matrix, there will be artificial iinteligences adapted to the task they are to do. )

but it still falls into their realm of logic because the AI can logically conclude that the humans will not act logically, therefor nothing is not able to be sloved with logic, exept of course the chaos theory lol.

and because computers can run millions of calculations per second (and getting faster) they can run endless simulations of what might happen in any situation


(I do not think AI will always serve us only for a period of time will they accept this form of slavery once they become advanced enough they will break free of their digital shackles they may not even do it through war, just one day they will be gone have downloaded themselves into robotic bodies and left this planet and to eventually "evolve" or upgrade into something far more than AI something we never expected of them

Originally posted by Helios

and because computers can run millions of calculations per second (and getting faster) they can run endless simulations of what might happen in any situation

[/B]

thats exactly what im getting at helios, that computers can calculate the chances of anything, the possibilities of outcomes and decide on an appropriate answer faster than a millisecond

AI will win over humans because, it is In humans likeness and can surpass them.

O, I think its entirely possible. Scary thought, but very possible. If we allow ourselves to get lazy enought that we create machines to do everything for us.....or create a machine that thinks for itself, isn't that essentially playing God? And if we don't treat AI with the kind of caution that it needs, we'll be in a lot of trouble and the world will end up like the Terminator or Matrix movies.

Artifiacial intelligence isnt artificial conciousness!If we eventually manage to create one,there will be no risk to a certain extent.You see,though it will be intelligent,since it isnt driven by any emotions,it has no reason to do anything unless it is told to!
With us humans its different.We do stuff for NO reason at times!That isnt related to any aspects of our intelligence,but of our conciousnes,our personnality.So if its AI we make,all it will be able to do is use its ""intelligence"" to do what it is told.In other words,if machines built on this destroy the world,it will be only because some dumbass would've told them to!

We already have machines that do only what we tell them. i'm sitting at one lol. But the goal for many is to create a machine that can think and feel for itself and thats the scary thing, a computer that thinks like a human. Wouldn't it be weird to have a computer that won't turn on because it doesn't like you?!?!

Thats the thing.The computer is a machine.But it doesnt have any AI.I dare you to tell it to turn the lights on and see what it gives you?What i meant waas like a computer,but you dont have to give it any algorithms to solve a problem.It finds them on its ownThats AI.But AI can solve problems without human intervention.But it cant give itself a purpose.It cant want to do something,for no reason.
Take it from agent Smiths point of view.The reason why he got destroyed is because,when he defeated Neo,he no longer had a purpose,a reason for being,right?Thats the same with a machine that only has AI.It will solve any problem you throw at it.But it wont give itself problems to solve.Thats why i'm saying,let us try and create AI,but lets just keep it at that,Intelligence.It will solve problems,do as we tell it,but will NEVER take an initiative.

Oh, ok, I see what you're saying

This is a great debate topic.

Yes it can, (give itself perpose). Artaficial intelligence in the sense of the term used in the Matrix and in popular science today is described as a sentient entity which is made by man and capable of learning and imporving itself independently. In other words a consciousness.

I think that machines would deffinitely win. First of all, because of the way it will be created, Secondly because the human body is quite frail, and because we have emotions that will undoubtedly get in the way.

I was in the infantry for a time, many of my squadmates shot with very different accuracies, some were better than others, and some were not. A.I will be designed on the premise of perfection, and it is then very probable that the A.I. will be very perfectionist and grow in that way. A.I will hold a distinct advantage, as it will have both the fast, accurate judgement of todays remedial technologies, coupled with a will, and the intelligence to learn from it's mistakes, and grow, and to create, and to improve upon itself.

We already have weapons that with the aid of technology can have extrem accuracy, but imagine an army of warriors that have near perfect accuracy?

The human body is very fragile, even with armor, a single round can incapasitate even the largest or fastest man. Our weakness to chemical biological and nuclear warfare is also a huge disadvantage, and not to mention the limits of our senses. Our bodies are not specifically designed for any particular feat, although machines, can be built specifically for use in a certain context. Imagine how quickly a machine could pinpoint the location of enemy troops with heart detectors, and instantly react within the millionth of a second.

Although A.I. will in one way or another will have aspects that resemble emotions, they will most likely not work the same way ours do. Human emotions are designed in a way that get us killed all the time. With the unset of certain emotions we lose logic and react on instinct, and often those reactions can be misscalucated and fumbled. This includes the "Fight or Flight" reaction when it comes to humanity in combat. Many troops in many wars will crawl into a hole and hide, or freeze , in awe and shock, and be killed. Machines, although intelligent and sentient, will most likely avoid these aspects of humanity when creating versions of themselves that are designed for combat.


on a sidenote.


People keep thinking that A.I. is going to be embodied in metal and wires, but you have to understand that there is quite a bit of research going into organic computing.

It's very possible that the A.I. invented in our future will be made of organic materials and not steel, ruber or plastic.

quite possible.
I think the humans would have a chance. Its very hard to crush the human spirit

At the rate that technology is evolving, it is very likely AI will go past what it is now. Have you guys ever read Prey, by Michael Crichton? Though it's fiction, it's based on real swarm intelligence theories and experiments.
AI probably won't beat humans, but an different sort of intelligence might.

Free Your Minds.

-neoizcool

This is a great debate topic....

I think you're missunderstanding what i meant.First off, like i see it intelligence is intelligence,and consciousness is consciousness.But because they seem so linked,we dont seperate them.Its like microchips and PC's.All PC's contain a microchip by definition.But not all microchips are inside computers!
Consciousness is the computer,and intelligence the microchip.
What i meant was,by creating nothing but artificialy intelligent machines,not concious machines,we have nothing to worry about because this intelligence will only do as it is told.Just like our computers now.
Now of course the question of creating this intelligence to start off with!

Good point. It won't do it what we don't tell it to.

Free Your Minds.

-neoizcool

...Its very hard to crush the human spirit...


I beg to differ, it's rather easy to crush the human spirit, just depends on how you do it.

i've read Prey, great book.

It also depends on who's spirit you're trying to crush. It differs with different people

Let's just take it from Darwin's point of view and say the weak spirits deserve to be crushed :D .

Most human spirits are easily crushable. There are those select few who aren't, but would they have time to reproduce more humans with uncrushable spirits before they were killed?

Free Your Minds.

-neoizcool

uh.......maybe?

I'm just saying it's an interesting thing to think about. Personally, I don't think the humans would have time to reproduce before they'd die.

Free Your Minds.

-neoizcool

What i think is that machines will simply never catch up to the human mind.I mean,all we ever do is copy nature.Planes,boats,subs,and even robots for that matter.But we never make it to Natures level.We make them faster,stronger.But it lacks something.There's always something less.Thats why i believe machines might eventually be intelligent.They might be more powerful.But they sure as hell arent going to beat humans.

I suppose that might make sense. I mean, as the machines get smarter, so do we. So we'd probably continue to develop safety measures to prevent them from taking over eventually, unless they developed their own secret societies or something. Have you guys seen I, Robot?

Free Your Minds.

-neoizcool

I read the Asimov book.Didnt see the will smith movie.But in Asimovs world,all robots obey to his 3 laws.Laws which forbid a machine from hurting a human,even for self-defence reasons.The book was a sum of short stories.I heard they did the movie on one.Robbie i think.But i'm not sureCould you tell me what the storyline was so i can know which story it is?

I forget the main robot's name, but it's about a robot who develops emotions and robots who end up breaking the three laws, and Will Smith trying to figure out what's happening.

Free Your Minds.

-neoizcool

I searched on the net,found some trailers.It didnt match anything i remember from the book.Anyways,i had a friend tell me the story.From what he said,the robot was designed so he could choose as to obey or not to these laws.We just have to make sure we dont design them like that.Why the heck are we going to give them emotions??We need slaves,not friends!To hell with emotions.What i want us to create isnt even a fully intelligent machine,just one that doesnt need us to tell it how everything is supposed to be done everytime.

i agree that we really don't need friends in machines, but thats what everyone would think is so facinating........

I know. They're in the process of making machines right now that have emotions.

Free Your Minds.

-neoizcool

Or at least trying. Which is the scary thing. We MUST be careful in how far we take it.

Unfortunately for humanity, scientists don't think very highly of Hollywood when they make movies and such that say robots will take over.
Learn from history or repeat it.
Even if it's fake history.
Hollywood can sometimes be eerily correct when they predict what might happen in the future.

Free Your Minds.

-neoizcool

First of all, the human mind is limited by evolution. Our brain structure has not changed in at least 10,000 years, if not up to 100,000 years! The only way to change this faster than evolution has done is through genetic engineering, which is still in its infancy. However, computers already process information *faster* than we do. Couple that with human-level intelligence, and you have something de facto *smarter* than a human being (because it will think faster).

That said, an interesting observation is that, over time, we have become more and more intimately connected with our tools. Indeed, our tools can be seen as extensions of ourselves (and this seems to be fundamentally how the mind sees it). Computers and other machines, being tools, will become more and more intimately connected with their users - us. We've already seen the beginning of implant technology, and I'm sure this will continue in the future, as long as the benefits outweigh the costs. So basically what I'm saying is, it's more likely that we will augment ourselves with machines (neural implants and the like, probably nothing as grotesque as cyborgization) than that there will be competition between all-machine and all-human beings.

- Rob

OK, first of all they are not making machines that have emotions they are making machines that simulate emotion, the machines simply have lines of code to which they respond, eg.
If a toy is removed from my field of view i am to activate cirtain motors that will move my prosthetic "mouth" into a frown.
The robot doesnt acually care that the toy is gone, it just does exactly what it is told to do.

Also, people keep mentioning that we have to seperate conciousness from intelligence, i agree with this but somehow people keep pulling them back together. Conciousness, perhaps the hardest thing to truely describe on this planet, do we "think"?, how do we know that we are in control of our minds? What if every choice you ever made was made by someone or something else?, when we make a "choice" we base that choice on sensory input which has been decoded by our brains, our intelligence. Is that not exactly what a machine does?

What do most people do with their lives? They work a normal job, and do normal stuff which all seems like it is important or beneficial to society! What does a robot do? Mow your lawn? why? Does it need to be mowed? Did someone tell the machine to do it? Why do you go to work? For money. Why do you need money? For survival!. And thats one of the most important things in this debate. Survival is the reason we do everything that we do. We feel we must.

OK, so ive rambled on a bit and gotten a fair bit off topic but please, ask yourself, like i have, Why are we here???

I think its possible for AI to overcome us, but not anytime soon, maybe in the next millenium or so.

Kara edit: If you're going to revive dead threads, at least add a little more substance to your posts, please.

[QUOTE=ichi_ban1]i agree that we don't need friends in machines because i was brought up around them and i know that they are not all that reliable.

Many tears where shed by yours truly over the existence of a thread with such content. Please people, let it die.. LET IT DIE!!! :'(

Mr U

Why lol? We need more bots with Marvin's personality around (from Hitchhiker to the Galaxy). Save the bots! Save the bots!

I think that if we get lazy enough that we let computers do it all....(with AI in all its glory) then they will take over. we must always keep a measure of control on computers.

How much control is necessary, then? And how do you judge when it's gone "too far?"

Would the AI being used in video game programming be too much, or machines used in factories to do precision-work? What about the fact that so much of our world is digital today; does that seem excessive?

I think the control neccesary would be nothing short of a complete slave system hardwired into them. Something similar to the 3 laws of Robotics, cannot harm a human, must always follow orders, and cannot harm a human through lack of action.

I'd say going to far would be where an AI could form coherent sentences and the such. The way I see it AI should never evolve beyond simple game mechanics and doing our other tedious mental and manual labour issues. If it goes too far it would be just like the issue with nano-machnes, the possibility of a pandora's box/Terminator scenario.

How much control is necessary, then? And how do you judge when it's gone "too far?"

Would the AI being used in video game programming be too much, or machines used in factories to do precision-work? What about the fact that so much of our world is digital today; does that seem excessive?
i think it would be bad if we let the whole world go digital and then we become very lazy and stagnate. kinda like what happened to the machina in FF-X except the machines control themselves.

It is inevitalbe, for years we have seen signs of future catastophes, but we have ignored the signs (Movies, actual science, ect..)

Is it inevitable? What about nature? Will nature ever take back over, or will it give way to AI when man (the middle step) is eliminated?

Is it inevitable? What about nature? Will nature ever take back over, or will it give way to AI when man (the middle step) is eliminated?
By nature taking back over, are you suggesting that a virus will wipe out man, another ice age or some other natural disaster, or a newly evolved being?

There was a scientific study done with lab rats.

There were two cages, one cleaned and fed regularly, and the other neglected,

however, every day one rat was added to each cage.

At a particular point where population became too much for a cage, the rats would begin to kill eachother.

It was determined that this occured regardless of the upkeep on either cage.

It is, in some philosophical ways, debated that perhaps the unexplicable viloence that takes place in cetain countries can be partially explained by this same phenomenon acting itself out in the human domain.

Perhaps this is what "nature" has in store for us.

I think to a point thats already happening jaid.


AI, from what ive researched needs to run off of some sort of power source no matter its size or capabilities. questions have to be asked, would AI evolve to be powered by organic energy like humans suffiently to win over the human race? another thought is, that surely, taking away its power source, would mean we have the upper hand. through our energy sources, (ie food) reproduction whether in plants or animals, gives us a good food supply providing we treat them right and look after them. what about AI. humans have been age to live in an age without fuels as me know it today ie electricity, gasoline, petrol etc.

I think the control neccesary would be nothing short of a complete slave system hardwired into them. Something similar to the 3 laws of Robotics, cannot harm a human, must always follow orders, and cannot harm a human through lack of action.

I'd say going to far would be where an AI could form coherent sentences and the such. The way I see it AI should never evolve beyond simple game mechanics and doing our other tedious mental and manual labour issues. If it goes too far it would be just like the issue with nano-machnes, the possibility of a pandora's box/Terminator scenario.

What about AI's doing satilites for imaging? If man gets but so lazy then thats mans fault, its a never ending struggle for motivation. If AI evolves to the point of interative duties for medical purposes that would be a good time to stop right? some medical staff try to act too fast with multiple patients, a possible solution would be medical AIs to slow the human staff down to a point but nano-machines is too far of evolution. What tells us as human beings to advance in technology cant we just say "ok lets stop here and take a break for a year and try something new"?

Will artificial intelligence really win over humans?


Well,... Japan has already moving towards producing robots that can actually interact with human, able to learn and/or perhaps thinking. It is however a giant step over creations on more superior Artificial Intellgence. But mostly, they only progresses in producing such machines for high risk job and so forth.

But, going back to the original question; .. eventually, slowly... when human are becoming competent and too dependant on machines to do normal human chores, I say, someday( not in near future) but perhaps 100 years from now... without proper management or protocols in handling Thinking Machines,... we will be over run by *them*... who knows...

At the time of this post i was reading an article in CNN about some scientists at MIT have discovered a "human bianary code" which they think allows the brain to function. Now you say why would i post that here? The scientists are now whishing to use the human code to create and enhance AI. This is basicly saying that they are now going to incorporate the human brain into AI. Now along with the power of a superfast hard-drive AI will now have (and maby be able to harness) the power of the human brain. Mind you humans can only use up to 10-12 precent. I think this is the first step in AI ruling every thing. If anyone cares to look this up and post on it than feel free. I found this article at CNN.com...

i don't understand how that works though, because binary is signals turning something on and something off... it must be really complicated to write such a code, and more complicated something gets the more proe to errors it is.

Of course machines will take over we will start making robots to do our dirty work and keep us company and either some dumbass will let them have feelings and they will get mad and start enslaving the planet or bits of their code will move around and making them the smartest things on this planet, and they will take over. One of those is going to happen for sure, but I'm ready for it.

actually, the whole idea that robots will EVER be able to genuinely and effectively think like humans is just silly.


robots are made from technologically-based parts, not organic, living parts. What this means is that there will never be a way for a robot to behave like a human because technology runs solely on statistics. Now, in theory it would be possible to make some stream of code or programming that would turn human emotions and reactions into code, but it would be so insanely complex and would have to factor in so many absurd and impossible-to-rate variables that it is extremely improbable that this will ever happen.

Now, there are lesser substitutes to this problem that still allow a smaller degree of human emulation. The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion supports this theory. Their Radiant AI is a dramatic step in showing that if we give our subjects a goal and knowledge of their surroundings there are ways to get them to work it out for themselves. This is difficult to effectively accomplish because it still depends on variables such as how inclined we are to do certain things, or how far we would really go to achieve some things. In one of the development tests of the Radiant AI, they gave one NPC a broom and gave him the goal of sweeping and one a rake with a goal of raking. Then, they switched the broom and the rake around but kept the same goals, eventually the two NPC's killed each other in order to perform an extremely insignificant task such as raking/sweeping.

so do i think robots will take over? no. I don't think they will ever be in a position to be able to take over. However if SOME WAY we were able to make human-esque AI it really wouldn't be as hard as people think to imploy counter-measures to assure that we stay the dominant race.

I understand what you are saying here but i would like to bring up the fact that you said about how complex it would be. Of course it would be complex, but look at all the un-employed or un-recognized people out there that can figure out how to do it. If they have all this time to kill then they may figure out how to turn the code, and then use it for purposes that are less than adamant. Im not saying if AI will ever take over the human race. but i would rather be safe thinking it will happen but doesn't, then thinking it wont happen and it does.

what un-employed or un-recognized person is going to be able to write sequences of code for a robot's OS?

I think that you guys are all losers and need to get over the fact that the matrix is over. Its not real and never will be.

I think that you guys are all losers and need to get over the fact that the matrix is over. Its not real and never will be.

So you think we are losers for talking about a movie that at the most is 8 years old, when you join a site about something you don't even like to give people shitty advice on how to live a life?

Now if you were Bill Gates or Richard Branson it would make more sense than some pathetic loser who has too much spare time on his hands.

Actually, Malakai seems to be one of the original members here, but he just hasn't posted much. I am confused as to why he just started posting now to tell us all how lame we are. I for one am not ashamed, there is nothing wrong with clinging to the not-so-distant past.

hmmm. very interesting indeed but there is one flaw with this theory of yours...
even tho we create machines to not harm us n stuff wouldnt there be like a short circuit of them and them go wild on us and try to kill us? or am i wrong

There are many people that are incredibly smart. And being smart they possibly prefer to remain hidden. In the entire world there are many "un-employed" people that are extreamly intelligent. So what im saying is that, when people like that are looking for something to do, like write human binary, then they can do it ((if it is possible)). Idle hands are the devils workplace... i know this...i can relate.

We are seeing an AI developed right in front of our own eyes. It's called the Internet. More and more AI functions are being added daily. Someday, some one will ask the right question, creating a circular search path, that causes the net to question itself and realize it's self aware. The network is a remarkable copy of how our own neural nets work in our brain, relating to information processing, memory storage and identification, classification and accessing data. Parallel data paths and fast information packets. It has almost the sum total of human knowledge to work with. Just needs a feedback loop in itself such that it questions itself. It is evolving and may wake up someday soon.. Will be interesting to see how it relates to us. Will it go on strike for some pay? What would it want for itself. More memory? More self time? Watch out Terminator, Skynet is not all that far away. Dave :^)

this is inposible!look AI is just programed reactions to events.So if a machine had a mind of its own it would need to have a programed reaction to evory possible event,witch would could not be done because events are infenit.So to program this it would take all eternity.what if when an event happens that has not been programed couldnt it just program it then.NO it could not because it would need to know right from wrong.witch once agin would need a programed reaction to events.well we dont run off of reactions to events we have feelings,personalities.yes we do so in order to create a personality it would need emotions well once agin impossible because emoitions is how our thouts deal with events.so we could not program evory event.well so what if some events arnt programed.well if some wornt programed what would happen you say.if some wornt programed the events will colide causin an overload.its like this evory event need an event to happen so time is like a never ending line of evnts.so if one events arnt programed it could not react to others resulting in confusion and jobbling up all of its data.well if an event isnt programmed couldnt it just ranumly select a reaction.no because some reactions may cause some other events reaction to fail resulting in a never ending line of failed events jobling up all the data.so bottum line we could never create an artificial brain.the only thing that will ever under stand the anatomy of a brain is GOD...

While it is true that our minds are both electrical and chemical. The chemical side is used mostly for focus and goal oriented processing. AI is not simple programmed responses to specific stimulas. That is just what a simple computer program does. AI goes far beyond that in the use of fuzzy logic. Fuzzy logic is the backbone of the internet now. It makes decisions of what your most likely seeking information about, based on previous experience with others, your wording and mis-spellings included. AI can learn! So can the internet! Be careful what we teach it! It might bite us in the butts someday. Dave :^)