Hi...this is my attempt to explain the story of the Matrix choice-system.
I tried to stay with facts as much as possible and I don't bring in religion or philosophy.
At the end of M1 agent Smith was defeated by Neo.
His fellow agents (Jones and Brown) didn't even try to fight Neo..instead they just ran away!
So at that point all 3 of them became useless. The system wanted to delete them and replace them with the new (upgraded) agents you see at the beginning of M2.
They are called: Thomson, Johnson and Jackson.
Now imagine this...
The Anomaly prior to Neo also defeated three agents.
They got deleted and recplaced by 3 new agents.
I think Smith, Brown and Jones were the new agents who fight the fifth anomaly at the rebel meetingpoint.
So Smith now stands in the alley observing the fight. He remembers himself fighting the fifth anomaly in the previous cycle of the Matrix.
That's why he says: it happened exactly as before, with now the difference that he is still around having his extra powers!
This also explains why he knows where the rebels will meet.
He remembers it from the previous anomaly-cycle.
This is what I further think about the Prophecy...
Each anomaly had a negative opposite. I assume the anomaly detroys an agent everytime, giving him the code to be his/her opposite negative.
This way The One has a choice...
Choice 1:
Enter the Source when visiting the Architect.
The Anomaly 'surrenders' his/her special code to the Source, allowing to start a new equation. I think the Matrix does not really reboot, just a new equation is established.
The Anomaly gets to select a few people from the Matrix to rebuild a new Zion where the 1% of the humans refusing the program (which also causes a flaw equation again) can resort.
The Anomaly loses his/her special powers (because he/she gave that code back to the Source). He/she only lives on to tell the new people of Zion that "The One" exists and must be found.
(Remember Morpheus talking in M1 about a man that was born inside the Matrix who had special powers; that was the story told on by the former 'retired' anomaly)
But what about Smith in this scenario? Would he still be a threat to the machine-world?
That part is guessing, but I think there are two possibilities:
a) The new equation starts, so the minds of the people connected get reset to a certain point. The minds infected by Smith will also reset, so releasing them of this infection.
b) When the new equation starts these people are simply deleted from the matrix and their crops wiped out to feed them to the new born.
When Neo reached the Architect, Smith's army was still acceptable, so they could easily miss these people.
With both possibilities the only one left would be the original Smith. He also has lost his purpose at that moment, which was destroying Neo.
Smith has copied code from Neo; the Source now 'knows' this code and has deleted it, so the code is also removed from Smith.
So at that point Smith has lost his extra powers and is just a minor exile which will be dealt with.
The system could than easily assimilate a program to hunt down the exiled Smith (programs hacking programs like is said in the dialogue between the Oracle and Neo).
Or maybe he feels so miserable about losing his powers, he returns to the Source himself and accepts his doom.
Like I said, this part is guessing, but the scenario is quite possible.
Anyway, no more problems...let the 7th equation do it's work and 'create' a new anomaly in about hundred years (Morpheus' speech: we've fought these machines for over one hundred years!!!).
Agent Johnson (the main agent of the new threesome) will become bittered after chasing rebels for over 100 years and will probably become the next 'negative One'.
Choice 2:
The Anomaly chooses hope and his personal desire. Neo just can't abandon Trinity...She made him who he is.
He loves her with all his soul. Neo has also hope that they can still win somehow without giving up his
code to the Source directly. So he goes and rescues Trinity.
Neo was the first anomaly to choose the other door back to the Matrix.
He is still an anomaly of an equation which has to be solved. The only way to do this is to become 'one' with
his negative self. You know how that happens! It's the final-fight of M3.
Here is where also the purpose of the Oracle comes in.
Her purpose is to unbalance the equation; and that is exactly what she is doing.
As most of you know the very first Matrix was paradise, the second was more like hell. Both Matrices kinda crasht because humans won't buy it. The Oracle was brought in to study the human psyche. Some say this also could be Persephone, but I personally don't think so. Persephone has something to do with human emotions and not the psyche.
The system of choice invented by the Oracle and coded by the Architect had one inevitability: a small group would reject.
From then on the Oracle's purpose is to unbalance the equation by guiding the rebels in finding The One and guiding The One on his path to the 'end'. The end chosen by the anomaly itself!
Letting Smith clone her was also part of her purpose (although the Architect only calls this a dangerous game, but that is he cannot see past any choice; also not the choice of the Oracle).
By letting herself be cloned, she gave Smith more insight and with that also more power...so the equation got even more unbalanced (just look at what a mess the Matrix ended up with after he had cloned her). She was also able to give Neo the final hint.
Neo understood and he made the choice to sacrifice himself in order to resolve the anomaly-factor. Positive and negative joined into one and both got destroyed.
The humans got 'rewarded' with peace because of the brave choice the anamoly had made at the doors of the Architect.
After that the equation does not start over I think. The anomaly has resolved itself, so it is not necessary anymore.
The Matrix just erases the damage Smith had made (deja-vu with the cat, just means changing/rebuilding).
All or at least most of the people infected by Smith go back to normal (look at the Oracle, Sati and Seraph).
The 1% of the humans who still want out of the choice-system are free to go to Zion; so there is total balance/peace.
So in fact this is only the third version of The Matrix. It has just been through 6 cycles before it was really 'stable'.
I don't think the Merovigian is an exile eather. He has the purpose of providing evil, sin and corruption to the system of choice (humans can choose evil as you know) and I think he also has the purpose to give the anomaly a challenge to get the keymaker. If the One does not have to face challenges, he might not be motivated to get to the Source and he will not develop himself to his/her full potential in case he/she has to fight his/her negative.
Also Mobil Ave (created thanks to Merv) was needed in the path of the One.
So he might seem an exile (maybe he thinks this himself too), but in fact he has a great deal to do with the path of the One.
Maybe some people are still asking...what if the One would have failed altogether?
If he had failed before he could destroy Smith (in M1), then the anomaly didn't even happen and the equation would have turned stable.
Zion would have been totally destroyed and humans who still tried to get out would have been easily killed. So the machines win the war totally.
If the One would have failed after he destroyed Smith (in M1) then both the humans and the machines would have a problem.
Zion would be destroyed totally and the machines should have to pull the plug because the treath of Smith would grow.
So the Matrix would have been shut down, killing everyone connected to it (I think that is what The Architect means if the One should fail). The third installment of the Matrix would then be doomed and must be rebuild all over again.
So the story of the choice-system is that both humans and machines are in risk.
That's my explanation of it all...
Feel free to provide me with your opinions on it! :-)
I am dutch, so I tried as good as possible on my English ;-) The things I liked that you mentioned:
1. That Smith used to be one of the upgrades in the previous cycle
2. That the Matrix wasn't actually rebooted but was just rebalanced
You're new ideas are refreshing. :) Thanks for the good read. Very well thought out. However, I don't like your suggestions about the Mevorigian. While I can't suggest what his purpose really is.. we know he is a trafficer of information and being a control point of moving programs in and out of the matrix.
But he appears to have much insight into the Path of The One.. when he says to Persophone "it is a game, it is only a game".... my feelings are that his character is there more to show you that while the there is the theme of FATE in the movie, and while he suggests that it is not FATE, but CAUSALITY.... he feels that he is locked in by his programing and can't escape what/who he is. He wants 'more power' (my interpretation is not just more power, but he wants the ability to have CHOICE aswell, not just be a slave to CAUSALITY), and that when he hides the keymaker, it is perhaps because he knows about the Matrix reloading when the One reaches the Source.... but that he wants to prevent it.... but he knows he is powerless to prevent it... so he tries little 'games' to stop the One from completing his task.... perhaps just out of boredom.
Well.. thats my thoughts on Merv anyway. Of course the Merovingian had an important part to play.
"The path of the one is made by the many. If one fails, all fail."-Oracle;Enter the Matrix Valasher: thanx man!
thedrwho1:
That the Merovigian has insight into the path of the One is logical. He has 'survived' all six anomalies, so he knows how it works by now.
If he really wanted to prevent the anomaly reaching the Source he could have just as well kill the Keymaker.
I think you could be right that he sees it as a game in order to kill his luxurious boredome. He may also realize that if the One fails, the Negative One can destroy the Matrix and then Merv's days of power and luxory might be over. So he knows that Neo will succeed, he just enjoys the thrill of bothering him.
But on the other hand...Merv seems totally surprised that Persephone worked against him this time. So this might not have happen in the previous anomaly-cycles.
Maybe it is also the first time Merv captured the Keymaker.
It's all guessing and fantasizing :-) But that's what makes the Matrix-story fun ;-)
I think Merv played a big role in the second version of the Matrix where he provided sin (whe cannot escape the nature of the universe, we cannot escape our deepest desires).
Since that version of the Matrix failed, he feels betrayed by the machine-world and the Oracle (she invented the choice-system).
When the Matrix began the third version Merv was not affected by the reboot, because he is a program from the machine-world (the gold code like Seraph has). He fleed back to the Matrix thinking he is an exile...
Think about it...if the machine-world really wanted to delete him, they could have. Instead he furfills the purpose of bringing sin, power and corruption to the new choice-system of the Matrix.
Programs have AI. They interact with people and they are influenced by them. Look at Smith, he got tired and bittered by humans. So his own personal 'higher' purpose became to eliminate them all ("purpose of life is to end!")
I think now this is also the case with the Oracle.
The purpose she was given by the machine-world was to investigate the human psyche in order to create a new system of control. Thanks to her AI she began to like humans.
She chose exile and decided to help the resistance.
So her personal 'higher' purpose is now to inbalance the equation.
The machines made a mistake with her; she has the ability to see the future, so if they send programs to delete her, she can always escape. The only one that gets to her is Smith, but that is because she chooses to be cloned by him.
Now what do you people think?
Happy thinking :-) Sorry, I couldn't read all of your passage ... TOO MUCH! :)
Basically you're arguing that it was Neo's choice that Smith stayed around, his choice also changed the cycle of the Matrix, and when Neo chose to destroy all the Smiths, I think you neglected to mention that this time he did not get a choice (usually there is a choice between exile and being sent back to the source) Originally posted by CyTech
Sorry, I couldn't read all of your passage ... TOO MUCH! :)
Basically you're arguing that it was Neo's choice that Smith stayed around, his choice also changed the cycle of the Matrix, and when Neo chose to destroy all the Smiths, I think you neglected to mention that this time he did not get a choice (usually there is a choice between exile and being sent back to the source)
Why not read it all? It's not THAT long and a real fan doesn't mind ;-)
What I am going to type now is also quite long, so be warned ;-)
Neo did not choose for Smith to stay around.
It's a result of the equation which wants to resolve/balance itself (or something like that; sorry I don't really know mathematic terms).
The negative One appears every cycle I think, being always an agent.
The agents just won't stop coming for Neo in M1...Smith kept trying to fight him, so Neo decided to jump inside him and destroy him. So I think this has happened every five previous cycles.
So then you have two anomalies around who want to eliminate each other.
First Smith tries to clone Neo in order to get his super powers (like flying and stuff). He does not succeed...
Then Neo touches The Source; that happens when he opens the door to the Architect (you see bright white light).
Before Neo enters that door, Smith tries to get him also. That is because Smith also wants to touch the Source ("I want the same thing you want Mr. Anderson, I want it ALL").
When Smith would touch the Source, he also has the power to destroy the machines like Neo has in the Real World.
But again Smith fails...
Now to still have a chance at destroying the machine-world, he must try to clone himself into Neo again. As you know, Smith gains capabilities of the minds he has cloned. So if he should succeed to copy himself into Neo then he would also have the connection with the Source that Neo has, allowing him to attack and spread around in the machine-world.
If Neo would have been jacked in through a hovercraft-ship (like the Hammer or the Logos), then this could have happened.
But Neo decides otherwise and he goes to Machine City.
He jacks in directly via the mainframe/source and surrenders his body and mind totally to the Machine World, so that Smith can be destroyed through him.
This results in both anomalies being deleted, so the equation is balanced...the Matrix is kind of stable now. You know the rest...
When Neo would have chosen the other door at the Architect, about the same thing would have happened. Neo would have surrended his code to the Source directly ("allowing a temporary insertion of the code you carry"). Because Smith has the copied anomaly-code of Neo, he would have also been eliminated (just like all the clones exploding at the end of the super brawl).
So the purpose of Neo remains the same: returning to the Source at his own will ("you must go to the Source, where the path of the One ends"). But it is up to Neo HOW he furfills this purpose.
Because he chose LOVE, HOPE and BELIEVE instead of instant survival, his actions resulted in peace.
Keep in mind these are just attempts of me to explain it.
I find it rather complicated but also very interesting to think about.
Please share your opinions and ideas with me. Mobil_Ave_Neo: I agree with what you've said. I like your explanation for Smith in the corridor "I want the same think you want, I want it all".. I never really quite thought of it as wanting to get to the Source, but thats a good explanation
I wish there was more evidence as to what happened in the previous versions of the Matrix... I mean... the movie revolves around the theme of Fate... do you think they would be trying to say.. that no matter what happens, everything ends up the same (and that perhaps, even the paths chosen are the same too?). Well.. we can only speculate.. its hard to say if Smith was destroyed at the end of Matrix 1 the same way as he had all the other times or not. So you think that Neo goes to the machine world so that Smith can not take over the machine world? I guess him having a chat with Machine Deusomething :P was just a "coincidence" then...
Also when you say that Smith wants to touch the source, his reasons are different, Neo doesn't want to be all powerful, he wants to save Zion + the human race, although he does do it quite differently than the other 'ones'.
Also, you also tell us that Smith wants to have the power to destroy the machines, which leads us to another question, do the machines really have any control over their existence? thedrwho1:
There is indeed no evidence of it at all.
I am just guessing, because it is quite easy to assume.
The One is a rebel and agents won't stop untill they kill him or capture him. So for Neo the only way to get Smith out of his way, was to destroy him. Also, at that moment Neo just discovered he was the One; so maybe he tried if he was able to break Smith's code in order to try out the potential of his abilities.
Later with the new upgraded agents coming at him he doesn't bother to destroy them anymore, because he realises they will send new versions everytime to replace them.
Still no hard proof that the Ones prior to Neo did the same; they could just have knocked the agents down and run for the phone.
The essence of the Matrix is choice.
The Architect confirms: "the problem is choice".
I think the equation gives balance to choices people make. Someone's choice affects someone else and vice versa.
So it requires a complicated equation to govern these processes.
The anomaly is some kind of an extreme in this equation and to balance it out, another opposite anomaly is needed.
Did you ever noticed that just after Neo realises for a full 100% that he is the One, Smith is created by the doings of Neo?
So the Anomaly occurs and as a reaction the equation creates an opposite at the same time to balance it out.
Neo chooses to free his mind, affecting Smith to choose exile and alter his purpose.
Now to eliminate the anomalies either the equation can start over (door 1 to the Source) or the anomalies most resolve themselves within the equation (door 2 back to the Matrix). It is up to Neo to choose between the two options.
I know it sounds complicated. I wish I knew mathematics, maybe then I would understand even better.
CyTech:
The machines have risks. So partially they are not in control.
As you know the first two versions of the Matrix crashed. Humans did not accept it and I think some kind of chaos resulted.
The machines had to shut the system down, killing most of the people connected to it. After that they had to 'harvest' a lot of new people to create a new Matrix.
As you know the machines need humans as energy-supply, so for them there is also a risk involved if the Matrix would keep failing.
The third version of the Matrix introduced the choice-system. This system kept most humans in control and the risk for the machines became less.
The only risk they had now was that Smith would not be destroyed. If so, they had to shut down the Matrix, again killing everyone connected to it.
So keeping the humans in control has risks for the machines too. Wow, Mobil Ave Neo, very nice job, it definatly cleared up a lot of stuff for me, but what i am still unsure about is when neo chooses the other door , why isn't the architect suprised, because all ones before him had chosen the source. He also muters omething about hope but i can't decipher that ahh help! OnlyHuman19:
Thank you very much for the compliment.
It took me a while to think it all out and I love sharing it with you people. After all we are all fans of this great trilogy.
The Architect doens't look suprised because he is a cold-hearted bastard thinking only in bussiness and numbers :-)
I don't think he knows what Neo is going to choose (even the Oracle cannot see past that final choice).
Only after he confronted Neo with Trinity, he says: "but we already know what you are going to do". That is because he notices Neo's emotional expression.
Then the Architect still tries to pursuade him by saying: "she is going to die and there is nothing you can do about it!".
He wants Neo to pick door 1, because the equation is then instantly balanced (which is his purpose).
If Neo chooses door 2, then it is not sure if the equation is going to be balanced again. Neo could fail in going to Machine City and fighting Smith and then the Matrix would crash; not only killing all the humans, but also the most important power supply.
The Architect says about hope that it is a dellusion of the humans and that it is simultaniously their greatest strength and greatest weakness.
To to put it shortly: door 1 leads to ASSURENCE of survival for both the humans and the machines, door 2 leads to HOPE for the humans and RISK for the machines.
I hope I've helped you out a bit! yes you definitly have, thanks, it all makes sense now, i love discussing the movie. that last bit about risk and assurance made perfect sense, thanks Originally posted by Mobil_Ave_Neo
But what about Smith in this scenario? Would he still be a threat to the machine-world?
That part is guessing, but I think there are two possibilities:
a) The new equation starts, so the minds of the people connected get reset to a certain point. The minds infected by Smith will also reset, so releasing them of this infection.
b) When the new equation starts these people are simply deleted from the matrix and their crops wiped out to feed them to the new born.
When Neo reached the Architect, Smith's army was still acceptable, so they could easily miss these people.
With both possibilities the only one left would be the original Smith. He also has lost his purpose at that moment, which was destroying Neo.
Smith has copied code from Neo; the Source now 'knows' this code and has deleted it, so the code is also removed from Smith.
So at that point Smith has lost his extra powers and is just a minor exile which will be dealt with.
The system could than easily assimilate a program to hunt down the exiled Smith (programs hacking programs like is said in the dialogue between the Oracle and Neo).
Or maybe he feels so miserable about losing his powers, he returns to the Source himself and accepts his doom.
Like I said, this part is guessing, but the scenario is quite possible.
I have to correct myself here.
When Neo 'surrenders' his code to the Source instantly, all of the Smiths would be destroyed just like what happened at the end of Revolutions. This is logical; Smith has the copied anomaly-code; the anomaly-code is given to the Source by Neo; as a chain reaction all the code will be deleted.
Sorry for the complicated scenario I described before; I guess I was thinking TOO much :-)
So in fact this is only the third version of The Matrix. It has just been through 6 cycles before it was really 'stable'.
I have to correct myself here too.
There were only two versions of the Matrix.
Neo is the sixth anomaly in the seventh cycle of the second Matrix. Sounds complicated right?
Read the article "The Matrix Explained 2.0 (Reprise)" by the user Anomolous. It will explain even more than I did :-)
http://www.matrixmania.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10013 Hmm I've been thinking... could Counceillor Hamann be the previous Neo? It seems when he was talking to Neo in Reloaded he was trying to hint something to him. Like he remembered all this happening from when he was the One. Obviously though, this time round the loop broke because of Thomas Anderson. Originally posted by Alto
Hmm I've been thinking... could Counceillor Hamann be the previous Neo? It seems when he was talking to Neo in Reloaded he was trying to hint something to him. Like he remembered all this happening from when he was the One. Obviously though, this time round the loop broke because of Thomas Anderson.
Very interesting thougth!
But personally I think it cannot be. Because Morpheus says they have been fighting the machines for over 100 years. So the sixth installment of Zion must be about 100 years old; and if Hamann was the One who initiated the new Zion then he must be over a 100 years of age :-)
But you never know...maybe he let's Morpheus and the others believe they are fighting the machines for a long time.
Hamann seems to be believing strongly in Morpheus and Neo; he supports them. He also talks with Neo, hinting him that he must have some kind of purpose, but he doesn't know how he should furfill it. Maybe he is hoping that Neo will choose a different path.
He is not telling Neo about him being the former One, because Neo has to discover his own abilities and chances; like the message hanging in the kitchen of the Oracle: "Know Thyself".
EDIT:
Hmmm has anyone noticed metallic plugs on Hamann? If he does not have them, he could have never been the former anomaly. I have watched the scene with Hamann and Neo again.
Hamann says he has been sleeping 11 years, so he got free from the Matrix when he was about 12.
So I don't think he was the former anomaly.
He also says that he doesn't understand HOW Neo does the things he does; would a former anomaly say that?
The whole scene is just a nice dialogue to relate humans to machines and vice versa; and also to make clear that Hamann is going to support Neo totally. just a pointer for you all: anomolous has made a really great thread similar to this one trying to explain the whole system under the matrix reloaded board. Its really great mayb eyou guys should go look at it if you still have questions after reading this one. (sometimes 2 perspectives help) "Choice is an illusion made by those who have power for those who haven't".
"You're not here to make choices but to understand them."
"You cannot see past the choice you don't understand."
She didn't say:you cannot see past the choice that you haven't made yet...
The question of the "choice" or the "future" are related:if the future is know and perfectly predictable than you cannot really call it "a future",but it doesn't mean "what will happen is known because it has happened"...In fact if the Matrix(and by extension the "real world") are virtual,you should understand that even the time is virtual...since it is defined and indefinitly redifinable...
Choice???Do you understand that "choices" could result from a programing,or to say it more simply,that choices can be programmed???
Then if they are programmed,you will easily understand that they have all actually been made(programmed),even before the actions of "making them" has been achieved...
There is an obvious difference between programming a program and running it:this is not because a program has not yet "runned" its code,that it means that what he will "do" have not yet been predetermined...
Since in programming everything that happens his programmed(even choice or random choice). OnlyHuman19:
You are absolutely right.
Go here you guys (and gals):
http://www.matrixmania.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10013
johnstamp:
Time and date in the Matrix are indeed virtual.
People in the Matrix think it is somewhere around the year 2000, but the Real World knows different.
In the Matrix Neo has a code which is very special...a code which allows him to bend every rule within the Matrix.
But as the Architect said: the Anomaly is NOT unexpected.
This allowed the Architect to at least program the Matrix (the complicated equation) in order to give the occuring anomaly an attachment to the human race and also to give the occuring anomaly a purpose. So that is the ONLY control the Architect has; he anticipates the anomaly and gives it an attachment within the equation.
The occuring anomaly is not yet known by the machines.
The machines know it WILL happen, but not exactly WHERE, WHEN and HOW.
Think about it. If the machines know it is going to be Neo, then Smith could have killed him when they caught him in part 1.
The anomaly woud have ended right there.
Also the machines have the power to destroy Zion earlier.
Zion exist for about 100 years...why did the machines not go digging much earlier?
That is because Zion is the ensurrance for the machines to keep the Anomaly under control. They only start digging, when the anomaly is discovered and has reached his full potential.
"Choice is an illusion made by those who have power for those who haven't"
This is kinda true. The one with power is the Architect. With his complicated equation he makes the human psyche think they have a choice, but in fact they do not have a choice. They are imprisoned by the logical fluctuations within the complicated equation.
Only a few intelligent people don't buy it. They question their lifes and just know there has to be MORE to it.
In the Real World you would call this people anomalies too. They just have a different state of mind, a different kind of psyche. They are intelligent, spiritual and don't follow the herd/mass/crowd. They question life and their spirituality instead of just being a 'stupid' human following only their instinct.
"You're not here to make the choice, but to understand it"
Neo already made the choice when he got back on his feet after Smith shot him. Trinity helped him with that, Trinity made him for who he is. That is why he is not going to let Trinity die later on...
That Neo did choose to rescue Trinity instead of Zion doesn't make him selfish. He just does not want to surrender to the will of the Architect. Zion would have been destroyed anyway; Neo just gets to build a new Zion with only 23 people.
Neo believes and hopes that there must be another way for Zion.
Also he believes that he cannot be controlled by anything or anyone...so he just believes IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THIS WAY (read "Matrix Explained 2.0 Reprise" for more on this).
Also....Trinity made him for what he is...without her, he would not be...together they are ONE; without her we would not be motivated to do anything at all. So it is quite understandable he chooses to rescue her.
Neo's purpose is to surrender himself to the Source (an attachment given to the anomaly-code by the Architect). That is why Neo dreams and has visions about his future. His purpose is within his code, affecting his mind. His purpose is within his subconscience and that is why he dreams about it.
Neo is the Anomaly...he is free to do whatever he wants...he is not controlled by the system at all. The system only TRIES to control him.
It is his TRUE CHOICE OUT OF FREE WILL to go to Machine City. He does this becaue he loves the humans. If he didn't choose to go there, then all humans would have died and the machines would have a very high risk at not surviving.
So Neo chooses to furfill his purpose out of free will.
Smith is just a reaction of the equation. When the anomaly occurs, the equation creates a negative anomaly and tries to balance itself out (see my explanation of this above).
Ad the end...the machines have Neo's body and Neo's mind/code.
I think they will preserve it, research it and maybe clone it.
Or maybe they will just use his code to make a program out of him which may have a purpose yet to be determined (maybe being a new protector/companion of the Oracle to keep the Matrix in balance and peacefull; or maybe they use Neo to track down dangerous exiled programs)
But the Neo you saw in the movies is definitly dead I think. I want to share a final thought with you and than summarize my explanation....
In my previous post I said that the machines only TRY to control Neo. He is the anomaly and is neither under control by anyone nor anything.
They try to control him two times...
The first time is with the Prophecy...he has to visit the Source and the war will end; he does this and is confronted with the Architect who forces him to make a bitter choice. The machines try to control Neo in choosing the door to the Source by reminding him of his attachment to the human race...they fail; he makes a different choice.
Then the machines have a backup-plan in case the anomaly does not comply to their wishes.
When Neo visits the Source, he touches it. From then on, Neo has a connection with it and can perform his powers through it.
Why would the machines ever give him extra powers which he can also use in the Real World? That is because the machines 'hope' (we could rather use the phrase: calculate the odds) that Neo will still answer to his love for the human race and will come to Machine City.
Smith is, as I described before, inevitable...he is a reaction of the equation to the occurence of the anomaly (like Merovigian says: action...reaction). So Smith is, just like Neo, an inevitable obstacle in the programming and maintaining of the Matrix.
They need Neo to destroy him. So again they TRY to control Neo. He doesn't have to go, but he goes anyway. But this time Neo also controls them, because he now has the power to negotiate for peace.
Now to summarize my complete explanation... My explanation of the Matrix summarized:
1. The Matrix is governed by a complicated equation which makes people (subconsciencely) believe they have a choice.
2. The rebels are intelligent and highly spiritual people who don't buy this system of control.
3. People who break free from the Matrix are unbalancing the equation. After a while this unbalancing results in an extreme factor: the anomaly.
4. The Negative Anomaly is always an agent. It is a reaction of the equation to the occurence of the anomaly. It is inevitable that the anomaly destroys an agent in the beginning; this is because agents won't stop coming untill the anomaly destroys one.
The anomaly prints his code on the agent and the Negative Anomaly is a fact.
5. The Prophecy is an ATTEMPT to control the anomaly; the machines will only start digging for Zion when the anomaly is discovered and fully powered. Zion is an assurence for the machines that the anomaly will seek out the Source.
6. Giving the anomaly a connection to the Source is part of a backup-plan: allowing the anomaly to go to Machine City and destroy the Negative Anomaly.
7. The Oracle is a program. Her first purpose was to investigate the human psyche. Now her purpose is to inbalance the equation (thus helping the rebels). Only AFTER that Neo chose different at the Architect, she believed she could be of help if she would let Smith get to her ("You made a believer out of me").
8. Programs are slaves of the machines too. Thanks to their Artificial Intelligence they realize that they want to be free. This is what motivates Smith and the Oracle. The Oracle wants it through peace, Smith wants it through total destruction.
9. Neo is dropped in Mobil Ave because he was 'hacking' the Source the wrong way (not realising what he was actually doing). The Source knows he might still have a purpose (destroying Smith). They cannot drop him directly into the Matrix; so he is dropped in Mobil Ave.
10. The purpose of the anomaly is to return to the Source. Actually: to surrender his code to the Source out of free will.
HOW the anomaly does this, is up to him. They can't control him, they only can try.
When the anomaly surrenders himself to the Source, the Negative Anomaly is destroyed also because he has the same copied code. Well,well...
Interesting!!!
In fact you only returned the "story of the movie" as it seems to be...
Nobody knew Neo was the One???
The Oracle knew and the Oracle comes from "the Machine world",or to translate,from what we've been calling the real world???
So how did she know that Neo was going to be the One if it can't be known beforehand???
You're talking of the Agents...Are they supposed to know everything that is linked to the Matrix or aren't they programmed to do what the system want???
They are programs:they only do what they are programmed to do...And we haven't seen them "looking for someone who can become the One",but only "looking for Zion's Mainframe code".
One thing that really bothers me:why don't you want to understand in simple words the Architect's revelations...
He is clear enough...
"Your 5 predecessors were by design based on a similar predication a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species facilitating the function of the One. While the others experienced this in a very general way your experience is far more specific, Vis-a-vis love."
Let us admit that Neo is a man,which I think is what you actually "believe"(since there's no way to prove it).Why would Neo need being programmed to love his "species"???
(And the Architect put in the same category "Neo and the rebels")
Don't men naturally love their own species???
Why did the Architect says "facilitating the function of the One"???
If Neo is not something desired???
Isn't the One a function of the system???
How do you explain it,if the "rise" of the One is not "controled" by the system???
Actually the first time I heard the Architect-Neo dialogue,I didn't like at all what was saying the Architect:in fact it would have made more sense in my mind if he actually lied,but why would a "machine"(or program,that's just the same) lie???
I didn't like it because I naturally understood what he was talking about,but that didn't suited with what I had previously understood from the "The Matrix".
Why is the Architect talking about Neo's experience on love???
I won't enter the discussion of how does he know it(remember the kiss of Persephone...that was the purpose of that kiss,since it has a purpose...)
In what way if the One is not something the system generated,would Neo's experience about love would be interesting to analyse and why would it be compared to the experience of the previous "Ones"????
In all the dialogue,have you the feeling that the Architect cares more about "the survey of the human species" or does he care more about "Neo's reactions"???
Don' try to fool yourself and see the evidence:this is all about an experiment...and wether or not the rebels are human(in fact they are not),Neo is a simulated human,with simulated "powers"...
It is what I've been saying all the time:this is a simulation.
Something more to add:
if the purpose of the One is to return to the Source why did the Architect gave Neo a choice about love and added:an emotion specifically designed to overwhelm logic and reason??? johnstanp:
Neo and the rebels are no simulation.
They are humans...they have a few cyborg-additions, but they remain human. Are you implying that the Real World is a Matrix too?
I don't think so...we don't see Neo jumping and flying there.
The Sentinels are connected to the Source (noticed the little satellite-thingies they have?). When Neo is up close he can make a connection with the Sentinels on a kind of bio-electrical level. Through the Sentinels he connects to the Source and he 'tells' the Source to let the Sentinels explode.
You are absolutely right about the Oracle. She knows everything; so she also knows who is going to be the One.
But have you seen other posts of mine in this very thread?
There I was saying that the Oracle is in fact an exile now.
"The Oracle has many enemies". Why the hell does she need protection from Seraph if the system needs her so much?
She was initially created to investigate the human psyche...so that was the purpose the machines gave her. They gave her the ability to see the future...to see past choices people make within a limited mathematical environment.
During her time, she gained alot of knowledge about people and she became interested in them. I think she began to question if programs would ever have what the humans have: free will and emotions.
When her purpose was furfilled, the Architect programmed her results into the Matrix and she chose exile. She had become totally self-aware thanks to her Artificial Intelligence.
Like I said before, the machines took a risk with her. See has the ability to see the outcome of things in the Matrix. So sending agents or other programs to hack her out of the system won't help; she will always anticipate and escape.
Her personal higher purpose became to help the humans, to help the rebels and also to help her own kind: the programs, being slaves of the system too.
So she is never going to tell the agents who is going to be the next anomaly.
You say programs just do what they are supposed to do. The whole story of the Matrix tells otherwise. Bringing up Sati proofs that programs want free will too.
Most programs are given complete Artificial Intelligence to interact with their enveironment...
Agents need to see, need to smell, need to hear, need to talk, they need a memory to remember...They all need this in their quest to get the rebels and Zion.
Also, during their battle against the rebels they experience new things. Look at Agent Smith...he admires Morpheus a little ("the great Morpheus"), but he also hates that same admiration because Morpheus is the one who is giving him so much trouble in completing his purpose. He 'feels' superior to humans; he sees them as a virus and wants them back under control of the Matrix totally ("we are the cure"). He is also mad at the system because he has been given this hard purpose by it. He 'feels' imprisoned by his purpose (that is why he removes his ear-piece when he talks about this to Morpheus).
After that Neo becomes the One and he resurrects from his bullets. That frustrates Smith even more, so he chooses exile and follows his own personal higher purpose: destroying the humans and the machines.
He feels betrayed by the machine world...is that what he was fighting for all these years? To see a rebel get up from his death? He had enough!
So programs DO develop the desire to have free will and emotions. They can never feel emotions, but they can understand them through logical connections (the things Rama explains in Mobil Ave).
You have a good view on Persephone's kiss.
Sucking up Neo's emotions and giving the Architect the information he needs. Nice thought!
The Architects states only that the anomaly is an inevitability of the equation. He anticipates it, so he can give the anomaly a function/purpose/attachment. That is all he can do about it.
Maybe he put the attachment 'love' on it to experiment how this would turn out; could be...but we will not know for sure.
Maybe it just happened this cycle. The anomaly just falls in love, because he is a human! Thanks to his loved one he resurrects from his mental death and by accident creates a negative anomaly this time? We don't know for sure.
It is just a theory of mine that the Negative Anomlay (being an agent) occurs everytime, because this is a logical reaction of the equation; it is trying to balance itself out.
Just remeber johnstanp...this is my theory...you have a theory too.
Let's respect that.
Your turn! ;-) Originally posted by Mobil_Ave_Neo
johnstanp:
Neo and the rebels are no simulation.
They are humans...they have a few cyborg-additions, but they remain human. Are you implying that the Real World is a Matrix too?
I don't think so...we don't see Neo jumping and flying there.
The Sentinels are connected to the Source (noticed the little satellite-thingies they have?). When Neo is up close he can make a connection with the Sentinels on a kind of bio-electrical level. Through the Sentinels he connects to the Source and he 'tells' the Source to let the Sentinels explode.
You are absolutely right about the Oracle. She knows everything; so she also knows who is going to be the One.
But have you seen other posts of mine in this very thread?
There I was saying that the Oracle is in fact an exile now.
"The Oracle has many enemies". Why the hell does she need protection from Seraph if the system needs her so much?
She was initially created to investigate the human psyche...so that was the purpose the machines gave her. They gave her the ability to see the future...to see past choices people make within a limited mathematical environment.
During her time, she gained alot of knowledge about people and she became interested in them. I think she began to question if programs would ever have what the humans have: free will and emotions.
When her purpose was furfilled, the Architect programmed her results into the Matrix and she chose exile. She had become totally self-aware thanks to her Artificial Intelligence.
Like I said before, the machines took a risk with her. See has the ability to see the outcome of things in the Matrix. So sending agents or other programs to hack her out of the system won't help; she will always anticipate and escape.
Her personal higher purpose became to help the humans, to help the rebels and also to help her own kind: the programs, being slaves of the system too.
So she is never going to tell the agents who is going to be the next anomaly.
You say programs just do what they are supposed to do. The whole story of the Matrix tells otherwise. Bringing up Sati proofs that programs want free will too.
Most programs are given complete Artificial Intelligence to interact with their enveironment...
Agents need to see, need to smell, need to hear, need to talk, they need a memory to remember...They all need this in their quest to get the rebels and Zion.
Also, during their battle against the rebels they experience new things. Look at Agent Smith...he admires Morpheus a little ("the great Morpheus"), but he also hates that same admiration because Morpheus is the one who is giving him so much trouble in completing his purpose. He 'feels' superior to humans; he sees them as a virus and wants them back under control of the Matrix totally ("we are the cure"). He is also mad at the system because he has been given this hard purpose by it. He 'feels' imprisoned by his purpose (that is why he removes his ear-piece when he talks about this to Morpheus).
After that Neo becomes the One and he resurrects from his bullets. That frustrates Smith even more, so he chooses exile and follows his own personal higher purpose: destroying the humans and the machines.
He feels betrayed by the machine world...is that what he was fighting for all these years? To see a rebel get up from his death? He had enough!
So programs DO develop the desire to have free will and emotions. They can never feel emotions, but they can understand them through logical connections (the things Rama explains in Mobil Ave).
You have a good view on Persephone's kiss.
Sucking up Neo's emotions and giving the Architect the information he needs. Nice thought!
The Architects states only that the anomaly is an inevitability of the equation. He anticipates it, so he can give the anomaly a function/purpose/attachment. That is all he can do about it.
Maybe he put the attachment 'love' on it to experiment how this would turn out; could be...but we will not know for sure.
Maybe it just happened this cycle. The anomaly just falls in love, because he is a human! Thanks to his loved one he resurrects from his mental death and by accident creates a negative anomaly this time? We don't know for sure.
It is just a theory of mine that the Negative Anomlay (being an agent) occurs everytime, because this is a logical reaction of the equation; it is trying to balance itself out.
Just remeber johnstanp...this is my theory...you have a theory too.
Let's respect that.
Your turn! ;-)
Interesting,interesting!!!
About free will???
What is free will if the future is already known???
How then you define free will???
Is Smith really free???
So why does he say "we're here because we're not free..."
"It is purpose that created us and without purpose we wouldn't exist"(what is absolutely true for any program...)
How can Smith be free if he has to play his role in Neo's accomplishment of his path???
How can Smith be free if Neo already dreamt of his choice and if his choice is conditioned by Smith's intervention in the Hall leading to the Architect???
Remember:No Smith,no Neo meeting the Architect.
So where is Smith's freedom???
If the agents were free,why would Smith "didn't like his job"???
Who enforces him to do it???
Why would he say "I am no longer an agent of the system.I am unplugged.I am a new man,so to speak.JUST LIKE YOU APPARENTLY FREE"???
Is Smith a liar???Why would he lie to Neo???
And why would he say "APPARENTLY FREE" and more "LIKE YOU" if he is free and if Neo is free???
Didn't the Oracle tell Neo:"WE ARE ALL HERE TO DO WHAT WE ARE ALL HERE TO DO".
Didn't the Keymaker say:"This is my purpose.This is the reason why I am here and the same reason why you(the rebels) are here".
(So rebels and programs have the same purpose???But who gave them that same purpose???)
Does it sound like freedom???
Actually,I am giving more questions than answers,but they are indeed answers...
You used the words I.A:they are programs and they have a code.
They "act" according to that code...So it is possible that they are "free"(since freedom can be simulated,just like feelings),but they will always act according to their code...This is a great limitation.
You have watched the Animatrix programs???
The men who is training with the girl is a program:but he is so "human" that even the girl didn't notice that he was a program...even to the end of the "simulation"...
Is that program free???
So how would you know that it is not the same with the other programs in the Matrix:I mean they all have a specific role to play while they are "human like".
So would you know that the Matrix and the Real world are actually a bigger simulation(and many facts tend to that conclusion...)???
P.S:we're discussing so I respect your opinions and they are quite relevant and hard to be contradicted. johnstanp:
thanks for replying again...
You are right...Smith says these things.
He has become an exile. He could not do this by himself...he had help from Neo. Thanks to the code that Neo copied onto him, he got the ability to set himself free from the system and his original purpose. He does not feel free yet, because first he has to furfill his personal purpose: to be truly free he must destroy all!
Neo is the greatest obstacle in achieving this purpose, so he goes after him.
But...you are right...the program Smith himself may think he is free from the system, but I think he is not. The equation altered his purpose as a reaction to the occurence of the anomaly.
I think....that programs have 'rebels' too. When programs choose exile, the system/equation produces something to hack them down (the Oracle: "every story you have ever heared about ghosts, werevolves and vampires..is the system assimilating something that isn't doing that it is supposed to be doing").
So I think agent Smith is a produced reaction of the system/equation to the disturbance created by the anomaly.
So Smith himself thinks he is free from the system, but in fact he is not.
Morpheus says in the restaurant of the Merovigian:
"Everything begins with a choice". I personally think the Prophecy was created after the Oracle chose exile. They could not hack her down, because she has total sight into the Matrix and can anticipate hostile attempts. So the system produced something else to control the unbalancing the Orcale achieves. They created the Prophecy (giving the anomaly-factor a purpose). They also altered the purpose of the Architect. His first purpose was to create the Matrix; his current purpose is to balance the equation. So what Smith is for Neo, the Architect is for the Oracle: they are opposites.
The Architect has great power, because he designed the Matrix.
The Oracle has great power too. By investigating humans she made the complicated equation possible, so she understands this equation totally. So she had the power to help the humans without the machines stopping her. I think the Oracle decided to give the humans a chance, because she likes them so much. She knows and believes that the anomaly cannot be controlled if he truly would understand his meaning.
That's why she guides the rebels and the anomaly each time, but she let's them decide things for themselves (Oracle: "you have to make up your own damn mind" and "Know thyself" in her kitchen).
Because this cycle the anomaly fell deeply in love, everything turned out different. The love that Neo feels cannot be controlled by the machines; it is his personal human emotion. With humans love cannot be forced either; it just happens or not. So it just happened to the anomaly this time.
The Oracle was becoming a bit tired after going through 5 cycles already. But this time she had hope...When she noticed that Neo was deeply in love and that he did not see Trinity die in his dreams/visions, she began to believe that they could finally achieve something different (peace and balance)...
(Oracle: "You made a believer out of me" and Seraph: "Did you always know?"...Oracle: "No....but I believed!").
I have another interesting thought:
I was thinking maybe The Merovigian was a first attempt of the machines to hack out the Oracle? He wanted the Oracle's eyes since he first came to the Matrix and he cleary hates her. He is also a trafficer of information: he knows alot...maybe with his knowledge he tries to get the Oracle.
Capturing the Keymaker could be another plot from the Merovigian to get to the Oracle. If he would want the anomaly to fail he just as well could have killed the Keymaker.
He says in the restaurant: "run back to that fortune teller and tell her that her time is almost up". The Merovigian knows alot about the Matrix; he has knowledge about all the anomaly-cycles...so he also knows that Smith could kill all human beings. So maybe Merv hopes that when the time of humanity's doom is more near, the Oracle would be prepared to give up her eyes as a bargain to get the Keymaker in time.
Again, thanks to love, Neo gets lucky. Persephone (being an emotion-vampire) wants to taste Neo's love so badly, that she is willing to trade for the Keymaker
You have good points johnstanp...let's continue! Your turn ;-) My turn!!!
In fact we could go really deep in the understanding of the movie.But there are too many things to say and we will not ever have the time to discuss about everything...
Firstly,we agree that there are no liars in the movie...I guess this is a good basis for discussion.
Didn't the Merovingian say:"Choice is an illusion created by those who have power for those who have not"???
Who have introduced the matter of choice in the rebels' minds(or our minds,that's just the same)???
The Oracle...
"Would you have broken it if I hadn't told you to not worry about it"???
If I was Neo I would have replied:but why asking the question???
If I don't break it while I am supposed to break it,then you're no longer an Oracle!!!
How can we know what would have happened since it has happened and there is no way to go back in the past to make the test???
Irreversibility!!!
The question the Oracle asked to Neo has no object:it is useless to ask the question since it cannot have an answer...
Let's come back to "choice"...What is choice???
How do we define it???
Isn't choice a simple action,a simple decision???
Making choices is it equivalent to be free to make them???
I can make choices without being free...If someone tell me:choose between your life and your wife's...This is a proposition and I can actually make a choice...but am I free to make it or not???
I mean if choices are imposed to me,in what way are they still choices???
Isn't the ultimate choice to not even choose...Choosing of not choosing is itself a choice...Then why choosing something would equal to freedom of choosing???
The fact of not generating the choices we make,is not linked to our will...Freedom ultimately doesn't exist but choices do exist.
So Neo can make "whatever choices he wants",those choices are given to him,imposed to him...The choices are created for him,independantly of his freedom,if he has to ever have freedom.
then we understand those Merovigian's words:choice is an illusion created by those who have power for those who don't have...
It is simple to translate:the choices you believe you make are created for you to make them...You don't create them(you don't generated them):they are generated for you.
They are simulated.
Here I am talking of Neo like a human being,while he is obviously not...
But do you understand that "freedom" can be programmed for a program???
Do you understand that for a program all his choices are already made even if he hadn't already made them???
That will be the matter of my next post because right now I have to leave...Sorry. I agree with that last part it sounds good. Jake Horsley who wrote the book in the link that says 'Red Pill' in my sig says the same type of stuff about the fact that all 'choices' for most people are programmed by the matrix. It's a good book. Originally posted by Eon dreamhacker
I agree with that last part it sounds good. Jake Horsley who wrote the book in the link that says 'Red Pill' in my sig says the same type of stuff about the fact that all 'choices' for most people are programmed by the matrix. It's a good book.
You say most people...most people is not all people.
So this does not include the rebels and Neo. They don't accept the system of programmed choices.
jonhstanp:
What you say could be true. Programs being programmed to think they are free...Sure; everything is possible in a computer-generated world.
But why would they bother?
If they can control everything, why would they even bother to make a 'great show' with Neo and Smith? To toy with humans and programs? What's the use?
So let me summarize...
In fact you are saying that everything is a simulation; even Zion and Machine City? Everything is being simulated to give people who are different from the other 99% something to do?
Have you seen the movie-scenes from Enter the Matrix?
There the Oracle says that the path of the One is made by the many...If one fails, all fail. Why would she say all this? Is she lying to the rebels?
And is Neo not human? Wasn't his body being used to generate energy? Or are all these fields with human-batteries a simulation too?
So even if the machines don't need them for energy...why would they even bother? Just to study human beings? Originally posted by Mobil_Ave_Neo
You say most people...most people is not all people.
So this does not include the rebels and Neo. They don't accept the system of programmed choices.
jonhstanp:
What you say could be true. Programs being programmed to think they are free...Sure; everything is possible in a computer-generated world.
But why would they bother?
If they can control everything, why would they even bother to make a 'great show' with Neo and Smith? To toy with humans and programs? What's the use?
So let me summarize...
In fact you are saying that everything is a simulation; even Zion and Machine City? Everything is being simulated to give people who are different from the other 99% something to do?
Have you seen the movie-scenes from Enter the Matrix?
There the Oracle says that the path of the One is made by the many...If one fails, all fail. Why would she say all this? Is she lying to the rebels?
And is Neo not human? Wasn't his body being used to generate energy? Or are all these fields with human-batteries a simulation too?
So even if the machines don't need them for energy...why would they even bother? Just to study human beings?
I won't go far...
If the real is "signals interpreted by your brain",then how would you know what is real and what is not real???
How do you explain that "an orphelin from Zion gave to Neo a spoon saying that he will understand"???
You said that you don't understand why all of this simulation is made???
So explain why "Machines would try to kill Neo" while they obviously "need him"???
So why did they "try so hard to kill him" while "once they got him they diddn't tried anymore to kill him"???
Isn't it like a "mise en scene"???
Have you seen Second Renaissance???
How do you know that those who are "inside"(since they cannot be inside) the Matrix are humans and not programs???
The rebels are humans???
They are not:they just believe they are...
But this is for next time.... johnstanp:
Sorry, I won't buy it.
The only reason why it would ALL be fake, would be that the machines want to study human-behaviour in order to enhance their own Artificial Intelligence and Emotional Intelligence.
But this is not even possible in your theory...because to study humans, you need real human minds! And according to you the rebels and Neo aren't even human? It does not make sense to me at all.
I did see the Animatrix...They made a mistake there too I think.
In one episode you see the beginning of the Matrix...you see a kid play outside, then the agents come and they plant him and his parents in the energy-pods.
How can this be done? Before the kids gets placed in the energy-pod he is still a real human in the real world. How can agents come into this real world? They are only programs.
Or maybe they are human agents. Because in that episode you see the human government make a deal with the machine-god (which also proofs that the human-minds in the Matrix are really human and not simulated programs).
As for the rest...I will stick with my own theory.
Or you have to try damn hard to still convince me otherwise!
Good luck with it ;-) Originally posted by Mobil_Ave_Neo
johnstanp:
Sorry, I won't buy it.
The only reason why it would ALL be fake, would be that the machines want to study human-behaviour in order to enhance their own Artificial Intelligence and Emotional Intelligence.
But this is not even possible in your theory...because to study humans, you need real human minds! And according to you the rebels and Neo aren't even human? It does not make sense to me at all.
I did see the Animatrix...They made a mistake there too I think.
In one episode you see the beginning of the Matrix...you see a kid play outside, then the agents come and they plant him and his parents in the energy-pods.
How can this be done? Before the kids gets placed in the energy-pod he is still a real human in the real world. How can agents come into this real world? They are only programs.
Or maybe they are human agents. Because in that episode you see the human government make a deal with the machine-god (which also proofs that the human-minds in the Matrix are really human and not simulated programs).
As for the rest...I will stick with my own theory.
Or you have to try damn hard to still convince me otherwise!
Good luck with it ;-)
THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I AM SAYING:YOU'VE BEEN GIVEN THE TRUTH AND YOU WILL NOT ACCPET IT JUST BECAUSE YOU PREFER BELIEVING IN WHAT YOU HAVE UNDERSTOOD AND WHAT YOU HAVE UNDERSTOOD COMES FROM ONE MAN...AND HIS KNOWLEDGE COMES FROM WHAT YOU CALL A MISTAKE...
This is not a mistake...
Is the reference to Alice in Wonderland a mistake???
Don't you find it amusing that Neo must follow the White Rabbit...and that Alice's adventure(in simple words,her dream) begins when she sees a white rabbit and then follows it???
Don't you find it amusing that Morpheus says to Neo:you have entered deep in the White Rabbit's Hole...when in following the White Rabbit,Alice entered a hole inside a tree and falls into it,deep down???
So for all of you people that've been looking for references to understand the movies,why don't you try to simply interpret that simple one???
Is it so hard???
Why are we given a refernce on Baudrillard's book just before Neo begins his "hero's journey" when we know that the major subject of that book is "simulation"???
Not "simulation" in the common sens,but in the general one:a picture is a simulation...
A representation of God is a simulation of God...
And Baudrillard goes further in saying:the simulacra hides that nothing exists...
In simple word:what is represented does not necessarily exists,since we can perfectly represent something that do not exist...
If a represent a "bird",that does not imply that the bird I have represented is a real one or the representation of a real one...
And for your information,actually I knew that the rebels are not humans since it is clearly shown in the movies...(It doesn't require reading Baudrillard or paying attention to all the references in the movies since there are so many that it would be time consuming to understand all of them...)
That is the purpose of the Matrix code vision:you didn't pay attention to the fact that rebels and programs have the exact same representation when they are shown in the Matrix code vision...
You didn't pay attention to the fact that when Neo was resurrecting Trinity,he ACTUALLY resurrected "Trinity's CODE",meaning that Trinity is her own representation,that she is CODE...:how can you be your own representation if your representation is only a projection of your "self"???
Representation==the object represented???
No obviously NO!!!
I asked people here to explain me why the HELL,is Trinity shown CODED with the Matrix CODE,if it isn't CODE???
The same for Neo...All you see in the Matrix is just CODE,nothing MORE...
And the code is displayed by the MATRIx,not by the rebels'mind(what you and them call minds,since they are not minds):how can you explain me that rebels are still displayed in the Matrix even after they're dead???
Aren't their representations the results of their "self consciousness"???Then how could they be still displayed when they are not "conscious of themselves"???
Simple question,simple answer...And rest assured,I got the:I just want you to start wondering...
How on Earth can a virtual blood be a blood or a virtual hand be a hand???The representation of the real is not the real itself...
If the spoon doesn't exist,then why Neo's virtual hand would exist???
Is the heart Neo made come back to life,only a heart???
Is Trinity's virtual body a body???
NO.
Then how could have Neo made her come back to life if the body he manipulated is OBVIOUSLY NOT a body???
Do you know what I mean???
Isn't it begining to make you guess the truth???
The obvious truth that hasn't been hidden,but has always be shown in all the three movies...and even more explicitly,in the Animatrix...
You will not believe in the truth even if you are given the truth:that is why we could say at least that the Wachowskis have made really brilliant movies about manipulation and the best way to illustrate manipulation is to actually manipulate people trough the movies...
This is a movie about "manipulation by images" in manipulating those who will see it...
That could be the movie of the Matrix about the Matrix...
It is a mistake???
So was it by pure hazard that "humans" bombed 0-1 with nuclear weapons,when they must know that they generate EMPs???
Is it pure hazard???
No the Wachos haven't made a mistake:do you remember that they changed the end of the Kid's story because its "designer" had taken some freedom and that apparently didn't suit to the Wachos' vision???
So did they forget to remove what you call a mistake???
It is just a matter of time for you to see the truth or to wonder about the truth...
P.S:One thing that makes me really bored...How can you know tha Zion is real,since the Matrix can simulate everything???
Why don't you buy Second Renaissance ending when it is given to you???
So you're given some strong facts(and don't remember that what you've seen are Zion's Archives of the History of the Humanity) and you don't buy it???
Believing is the worst enemy of the reason. Just try to convince me that the rebels are humans or that Zion is real and you will begin to wonder that your task is not simple and more is maybe impossible to realise...
Please,let's just stay in simple reasoning...
If the real is "electrical signals interpreted by your brain",then even a virtual reality is just as real than the reality itself...and more there is no way to know if a reality is the reality,since you can only know or perceive the reality by "electrical signals that your brain interprets":this is a so great problem that I am very upset to see that no one sees where is the fundamental problem...And that this problem cannot be solved!!!
Let us assume there is a brain(actually informatic neurones exist...and in years to come men will be able to create a "computer brain"),I mean a "human brain"...
That would be the Matrix that sends electrical signals to the rebels' brain:so what they would see in the Matrix will just be what the Matrix shows them...
And when Neo would believe he just got out of the Matrix,how would he know that this is ACTUALLY the Matrix that makes him believe he has exited it???
Have you a single proof that Zion is real???
And if you had one,how would you know that it isn't itself a "virtual proof"???
So if you think deeper about it,you will just come to the logic conclusion that there is only two possibilities:you have to admit its reality or not...
And then to see which one of the two possibilities is perfectly coherent... Just a though... about the negative anomaly. I dont think it happends in each cycle of the matrix and that this time it is different : Smith knew in M2 where the rebel were because he had already "lived" that. Thus Smith existed in the previous version of the matrix as a simple agent. Maybe the previous One was powerfull enough to fight against agents and reach the source without killing agent smith. In M1, Neo is able to kill Smith thanks to Trinity after his resurection and it was the first time that a one experienced love (met Trinity). So to sum up i have the feeling that what is happening in this version of the matrix is a bit different and the negative anomaly wasnt part of the older version... and that's why the reload in some way didnt happend !
Or not... ;) (thats whats cool with matrix u can say a lot of craps and it seems still possible)
Have a nice one, gRe johnstanp:
Your statements make no sense to me at all...
To be sure...I just have watched the Second Renaissance from the Animatrix again. It is very clear! The machines are running short of energy. By studying captured humans, they discover that humans can supply energy when their brains are active.
To keep their brains active, the machines create a computer-generated simulation for the humans.
Off course the rebels show code in the Matrix. I never said that humans in the Matrix are pure human. They are half program and half human...
The machines planted metallic plugs into the brain and spine of the humans. In this metallic items resides a program...this program makes it possible to let the brain connect/interact with the simulated world of the Matrix. So these metallic thingies are kind of a bridge between the human brain and the digital world. These metallic plugs carry on the neurotical information provided by the Matrix and feed it to the human brain. You could also call the plugs a convertor that converts from digital to bio-neural.
The code that the humans show off in the Matrix is the program-part which origins from the metallic plugs. This program-part represents their residual self-image and allows them to interact with the system: the complicated equation which guides the humans in their simulated lives, letting them think/believe they have the power of choice.
The way the humans think and the way they store knowlegde and experiences is still done by the human part: the brain.
And this is where the problem of the Architect comes into play...
A few people have exceptional brains. They have a splinter in their mind...they question constantly what live is really all about and if there is more to it. You could also say that these people are more in touch with their souls. They just sense/feel that something is not right. If I may dare: we could even call it a 'sixth sense' ; having the ability to answer things through feeling.
So at some point their brain gets into conflict with the program-part. And then, with the help of rebels, they get awakened to the Real World.
The code that a rebel has, still resides in his/her metallic plugs. So through hacking, he/she can still access the Matrix totally.
That is why Neo can actually see Smith in the Real World; the program Smith was uploaded into the metallic part of the rebel Bane.
That raises the question why he can't see Trinity...after all, she has got metallic plugs too. I think that is because the code is not active when they are not connected to the Matrix; when they are not connected they purely interact with their brains. Smith was uploaded as an addition to Bane's code and the program kept active when Bane was disconnected from the Matrix. In fact he was possesed in a digital way.
The reason why dead rebels stay in the Matrix is simple.
Each time a rebel wants to leave the Matrix, he/she has to do this through a hacked modem-line. They have to upload their personal code back into their metallic plugs so that the metallic item stops it's bridge-function between program and brain, after which they can act for a full 100% on their brain again in the Real World.
So when a rebel dies before reaching a phone, his code stays in the Matrix forever...Because the Matrix is based on rules, the body of the rebel will then resolve slowly like dead bodies in the real world do too.
Also when the plug of a rebel gets pulled from his head (like Cypher did in part 1) the connection with his brain is instantly lost: the code remains in the Matrix forever and the digital image of the rebel drops dead. The human brain never got the signal that it has been released from the Matrix, so the brain goes dead, after which the body will die down too.
I can never rock hard proof to you that Zion is not REAL.
It just won't make any sense if it would NOT be real. :-)
Off course the WB-brothers wanted to tell us about the simulation-stuff. That is what the Matrix is...it is all a simulation.
But the brothers also wanted to tell other stuff; like influences from religion and human emotions.
They made a beautiful mix of it all...and allthough the mix is complicated, it is all still logical if you think about it clearly!
They did a wonderfull job! grelou:
Yes you could be right.
I was just thinking...every anomaly does discover his full power at some point and every anomaly has to deal with agents. Agents won't quit...they are programs and will not give up. So the anomaly has to kick them down, which won't really help, because the agents will still come back through other people connected to the Matrix.
So the anomaly might think: what if I would go inside of an agent and try to break/hack his code? Maybe he would go away permanently :-)
So the chance that the anomaly does this everytime is quite big.
This idea also fits into the mathematical theme: trying to get everything back in harmony/mathematical precision. For each exile or other disturbance, the system creates an (opposite) solution.
Also, have you ever noticed the face of agent Johnson? He is the new leading agent of the new threesome. He also has a sadistic 'character' like Smith has.
When agent Johnson rides with the truck in order to crush Morpheus and the Keymaker, you see him smile sadisticly. The other two agents have a more neutral facial expression.
This was also the case with the two partners of Smith.
So I am beginning to think that the leading agent is already being pre-programmed to get extra pissed off at mankind and the anomaly ;-) Just before leaving frustrated:
-how do you explain that we see Agents in the Real world inside Zion's Archives???
You made a very long post(uselessly long) and you avoid answering that simple question!!!
Secondly,what you see in the Matrix is only CODE,not half human,half program...Actually this is you that is saying non-sense things:how can code be at the same time human and code???
What do you define as human???
How can a CODE become a human???
Don't you understand that the CODE is only a representation???
Do you believe that what you see on your computer screen are humans,letters or cars???
They are only representations...
Thirdly:
-let us just assume that humans are stupid enough to darken the sky for centuries on the whole surface of the Earth(while it is only necessary to darken 0-1 's sky for a short period of time) and by the same time damning themselves for centuries,because they hate machines that didn't even want to fight them but always wanted to stay in peace with their creators...
Let us assume that humans are so stupid!!!Because we can only assume such a stupid thing...
If Machines didn't have any energy because they didn't have the supposed one they needed,and if Machines hadn't already created the Matrix,what energy did they use???
They defeated(they are supposed to have done it) the all humanity without any sunlight nor Matrix:so where did they find a so great amount of energy???
-Fourthly:even to build the "powerplants" they needed a great amount of energy...But if the Matrix didn't even exist and that there were no sunlight,then how have they been able to build them???
Very simple question that you will,I hope,see the simple answers...
-Fifthly:
There are clear references in the Matrix about Alice in Wonderland and that,at the very begining of Neo's adventure...
And everybody here knows how Alice begins her adventure...
-sixly:
a nuclear weapon generates an EMP:this is basic science and I would be very surprised to see that the Wachos don't know that!!!
How did the Machines manage to resist to such strikes if centuries after they still don't resist to EMPs???
-Sevenly:I have made almost one hndred and fifty posts to clearly make myself understood in another forum,in my native language...Because this is what the Matrix requires as explanations...And rest assured no one has been able to contracdict me...
-eightly:
I was one of the persons here who always "believed" that Zion was real...I would never imagine that one day I would say that Neo is not human...
But you cannot try to escape to some OBVIOUS fatcs:and I changed my mind and I sadly did it.
So don't believe that what you are saying to me is somehting new or something I didn't believe in...I believed it but now,it seems to me as non-sense...
I told it it is just a matter of time for all of you to understand things in the most simple way,since there is nothing hard to understand!!!
-Ninely.I post Smith words that I have posted so much in all the forums I have been because they say almost all:
"Why, Mr. Anderson, why? Why, why do you do it? Why, why get up? Why keep fighting? Do you believe you're fighting for something, for more than your survival? Can you tell me what it is, do you even know? Is it freedom or truth, perhaps peace - could it be for love? Illusions, Mr. Anderson, vagaries of perception. Temporary constructs of a feeble human intellect trying desperately to justify an existence that is without meaning or purpose. And all of them as artificial as the Matrix itself. Although, only a human mind could invent something as insipid as love. You must be able to see it, Mr. Anderson, you must know it by now! You can't win, it's pointless to keep fighting! Why, Mr. Anderson, why, why do you persist?"
this is where I end my "argumants" and I just hope that you will have understood in "simple words" what Smith was saying to Neo...This is clear enough!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! johnstanp:
First of all you do not have to yell at me.
That makes me think that you are a weird frustrated guy and I do not want to think that, because your arguments might be valuable to the forum.
Why is my post useless? Their brain is connected to the digital world. That is cleary explained in Matrix part 1.
If you begin like this I could say your posts are useless too. A bunch of babble and yelling around.
But you finally came around with some facts...
Firstly:
The explanation of the agents appearing in Animatrix is hard yes.
But it could be that it were human government agents helping the machines to execute the deal they made.
Later on the machines maybe liked these agents and decided to make programs out of them to govern the Matrix.
I admit, it is hard to explain. But maybe it was just a transition to show the change from the real world into the fake world (you see the kid fly into the pod and you see his parents turn into agents; this happens all quickly).
Secondly:
You know my opinion about that; I will stick with it for now.
Thirdly:
Humans are stupid...stupid enough to destroy the sky.
Why is there war on the world? Why are people yelling on this forum?
Because humans are mostly primitive and stupid in a way...rather fight than joining forces.
Only a few people are smarter; these people are most certainly Neo and the rebels.
Fourhtly:
Maybe they buffered some energy from the sun.
They were also already using captured humans to gain energy.
Fifthly:
Alice in Wonderland yes...that implies the journey Neo is going to make in Matrix part 1. He is going to the Real World and he is going to train to free his mind. For him, being new, this is an amazing adventure. It means nothing more than that.
Sixthly:
I don't know nothing about EMP existing in our own world?
Could you give me some links to scientific websites about this?
I would be very interested to read it.
Sevently:
You are persistant! Just like me :-)
Maybe I am the anomaly and you are my negative opposite?
Or maybe the other way around...believe what you believe...it is all fake anyway...right?
Eightly:
So at first you believed the same things that I believed??
Than evermore you should respect my vision and not yell at me to convince me otherwise. I might loose respect...And I don't want that.
Try to convince me with respectfull words...like all believers should do.
Ninetly:
Well, Smith is right. It seems all useless yes.
The existence of human beings has not yet been proven to gain anything or serv any purpose.
But whe must not forget that Smith is disgusted by humans...he sees them like a virus, he sees them as obstacle, he sees them as minor.
He is programmed to be this bittered. See my reply to the user "grelou" above: one agent being pre-programmed to hate.
He also says: "purpose of life is to end". And with that one he is also right! We get born, we die. The only certain purpose we have is to die.
Your last post made me think a little in your direction.
If you could explain the EMP-stuff and stop yelling at me, I would be ready to discuss further on.
I also have a big question now:
If it would ALL be a simulation...Who is running it? 'Our' God just to have a laugh and to learn us humans that we are not special?
Oh stop! Wait! Humans do not exist...it is all code according to you!
You also state that everything can be fake, because it is interpreted by the brain. Where are the brains in your theory? You keep saying it is all 100% code.
Please explain the purpose of faking humans in one big simulation!
Be concrete this time...thank you! Originally posted by Mobil_Ave_Neo
johnstanp:
So at first you believed the same things that I believed??
Than evermore you should respect my vision and not yell at me to convince me otherwise. I might loose respect...And I don't want that.
Try to convince me with respectfull words...like all believers should do.
If it would ALL be a simulation...Who is running it? 'Our' God just to have a laugh and to learn us humans that we are not special?
Oh stop! Wait! Humans do not exist...it is all code according to you!
Please explain the purpose of faking humans in one big simulation!
Be concrete this time...thank you!
I'm with Mobil_Ave_Neo on this one, i'm sure you've got something to help us with here but you keep asking more and more questions! If you just calm down and explain (just had to calm down myself on another forum :D) to us the way you see this instead of dismissing us and asking more questions i'm sure you'll be able to help us see where your coming from.
Please, don't ask us more questions and explain your ideas. I know you've done this before but it's always been inbetween more and more questions, try for one post not to ask us anything and just explain. I'm beginning to understand parts of your ideas now and i think you could convince me if you just worded it in the right way.
Calm down and take your time, there's no rush. Well,I've read all your answers and I'll try to be more concrete(even if I have been concrete all the time!!!).
Mobil_Ave:let me point out that I never said,before you did,that your arguments were nonsense to me:so bear the responsibility of your own words...
Don't ask people to respect your ideas if you don't respect theirs:I find it a quite natural way to behave...
So you could be polite or not,this is not the kind of thing that I give importance to...So do whatever you want:you're free and I won't care what you will ever say(this is useless)!!!
The simple answer about Agents in the real world:
if we do see agents in the real world we must understand that sequence(the end of Second Renaissance 2) is already in the "simulation"...
Then the enslavement of all the supposed humans has been achieved in a "simulation",or a simulated world...
If we do see Agents in the real wordl,I mean the same world that have assisted to the victory of the Machines,the same world as Zion,then you must naturally understand that Zion could not be anything more than a simulation...
That is so simple that I am just estonished to see that you are not able to see the obvious conclusion...
The question that naturally arise is:when did the "simulation" begin???
-Firstly,if you paid attention there is a subtle allusion to what is going to happen to the Machines(if you are following you must wonder why if I say that Second Renaissance 2 is in the simulation,I could actually speak of machines...Don't worry one thing at a time).
We see a fly being crushed on a world map,at the exact location of 0-1...
One thing that really amuses me is that many people pay such a close attention to many details in the movie except the ones that should really question them...
This is a very subtle allusion to the defeat of the machines(the truth is out there but people won't see it)...
So you won't be surprised to understand why 0-1 has been bombed with nuclear weapons...If humans(there exist humans,not the ones you believe) have used nuclear weapons,it is because they perfectly knew that they would generate a huge Emp and that would desactivate all the machines...
And that was the purpose of using nuclear weapons:humans are not as stupid as you think they are...
And they manage to reactivate all the machines in a simulated world where "humans have been defeated by machines"...(the irony is that the humans defeated are actually machines,or if you want programs)
In fact this is interesting to see that everything becomes less coherent or clearly becomes incoherent after the bombing of Zero-One:
-why would humans darken the sky on the whole surface of the Earth if it is accurate to only darken 0-1's sky.
-why would they do it for centuries if it is only accurate to do that for a short period of time???
-why would they do it to machines that haven't even tried to fight them and that have always wanted to stay in peace with them???
-how could have the machines defeated the whole humanity without any energy(no sunlight,no matrix)???
You could try to find arguments for these facts,but you won't be able to explain such incoherences because,they cannot be true...and that is obvious...
This is a "rapid" explanation but if you just understand it,you will now understand why such sentences are heard all trough the Animatrix "movies":for machines any reality is a virtual reality...
And you will understand why "machines can believe they are humans" since you do see a machine saying "I am human"(not with flesh and bones,but she can feel human emotions and you see it:she is afraid and she cries when she is hit at the head)...
So if she had to wake up in a simulated world where she would be "human",how would she know she is a machine??? To Mobil-Ave:
I won't even try to show you why your arguments are wrong,and if you've read what I said just before,then you will be able to understand those Smith's words:
"Why, Mr. Anderson, why? Why, why do you do it? Why, why get up? Why keep fighting? Do you believe you're fighting for SOMETHING, for more than your SURVIVAL? Can you tell me what it is, do you even know? Is it FREEDOM or TRUTH, perhaps PEACE - could it be for LOVE? ILLUSIONS(ILLUSIONS!!!), Mr. Anderson, VAGARIES OF PERCEPTION. TEMPORARY CONSTRUCTS of a feeble human intellect trying desperately to justify an existence that is without meaning or purpose. And ALL OF THEM AS ARTIFICIAL AS THE MATRIX ITSELF. Although, ONLY A HUMAN MIND could INVENT something as insipid as LOVE. You must be able to see it, Mr. Anderson, you must know it by now! You can't win, it's pointless to keep fighting! Why, Mr. Anderson, why, why do you persist?"
I have highlighted some words to help you understand what Smith is really saying!!!
If I see that it is still dark in your mind,then I will transalte them in a simpler language...
I could do the same with many other dialogues all trough the movie but I will only do it for that one... johnstanp:
I did not say your posts were nonsense. I did say that they make no sense to ME. So that's my problem; no disrepect intended.
You say you do not find my post nonsense? In a prior post you said: "...without leaving frustrated". That makes me wonder...
You now proudly use the argument of the agents being in the Real World in the Animatrix...while it was ME who brought up that very argument. So if you would use this as proof, it would be kinda cheap.
The Second Renaissance is a story from the Zion Archive. This archive resides in the Zion-mainframe. So it is a digital-file used to maybe teach the kids of Zion the history of it all.
So it is brought to the viewers in a kind of story-telling-way. So maybe the image of the parents transforming into agents and the kid flying rapidly into an energy-pod is just an animated transition to make clear to the viewer that the humans were enslaved.
Keep in mind that it is a story...brought on by humans...so that not all facts have to be 100% true.
Now...you are saying that the machines generated a simulation AFTER they had been defeated by the humans? Why would they do that...why would this be usefull to the machines? The machines could not even have simulated humans, because they know nothing about human psyche and human emotions...
...Or are you saying the humans made a simulation AFTER they defeated the machines? The humans made a simulation in order to check out what would have happened when the machines would have defeaten them?
If you mean this, then yes...it could possibly make sense.
The humans maybe wanted to learn what to do the next time, when machines try to take over the world. Maybe just co-operate with them?
After all that is what Neo achieves...Through love he makes a deal with the machines to live in co-existence; something the machines offered already in the first place (in Second Renaissance).
So maybe through running this simulation the humans realise they should never be so stubborn again and co-operate with machines?
Yes this could be a good theory...but to my opninion it is still far-fetched.
What is so special about Smith's words that proof that everything (including Zion) is a computer-simulation?
He just states that human ambitions and emotions are useless...which maybe they are...after all, for what are we doing it all? To die in the end? That is a subject for real-world-religion-and-believes.
This trilogy is a 'religion' on it's one.
Smith is just a program who hates humans, possible will never understand humans and he thinks he stands above them ALL. That is why he says these words. Originally posted by Mobil_Ave_Neo
johnstanp:
I did not say your posts were nonsense. I did say that they make no sense to ME. So that's my problem; no disrepect intended.
You say you do not find my post nonsense? In a prior post you said: "...without leaving frustrated". That makes me wonder...
You now proudly use the argument of the agents being in the Real World in the Animatrix...while it was ME who brought up that very argument. So if you would use this as proof, it would be kinda cheap.
The Second Renaissance is a story from the Zion Archive. This archive resides in the Zion-mainframe. So it is a digital-file used to maybe teach the kids of Zion the history of it all.
So it is brought to the viewers in a kind of story-telling-way. So maybe the image of the parents transforming into agents and the kid flying rapidly into an energy-pod is just an animated transition to make clear to the viewer that the humans were enslaved.
Keep in mind that it is a story...brought on by humans...so that not all facts have to be 100% true.
Now...you are saying that the machines generated a simulation AFTER they had been defeated by the humans? Why would they do that...why would this be usefull to the machines? The machines could not even have simulated humans, because they know nothing about human psyche and human emotions...
...Or are you saying the humans made a simulation AFTER they defeated the machines? The humans made a simulation in order to check out what would have happened when the machines would have defeaten them?
If you mean this, then yes...it could possibly make sense.
The humans maybe wanted to learn what to do the next time, when machines try to take over the world. Maybe just co-operate with them?
After all that is what Neo achieves...Through love he makes a deal with the machines to live in co-existence; something the machines offered already in the first place (in Second Renaissance).
So maybe through running this simulation the humans realise they should never be so stubborn again and co-operate with machines?
Yes this could be a good theory...but to my opninion it is still far-fetched.
What is so special about Smith's words that proof that everything (including Zion) is a computer-simulation?
He just states that human ambitions and emotions are useless...which maybe they are...after all, for what are we doing it all? To die in the end? That is a subject for real-world-religion-and-believes.
This trilogy is a 'religion' on it's one.
Smith is just a program who hates humans, possible will never understand humans and he thinks he stands above them ALL. That is why he says these words.
I'm really sorry for you...if you haven't understood what I said and what Smith says...
And for the agents in the real world,I noticed that six months ago(when i hired the dvd) and I have been talking of that for months :you don't really believe that you "gave" me that argument,are you???
You really believe that you helped me to find a theory I have been developping for months over a hundred posts???
Do you think I am so stupid???
Well,I always asked people in this forum to answer me why they think Zion is real when we see Agents in the Real world in the Animatrix and not only to people here,but in all the forums I have been...You're a bit pretentions,don't you think???
And it makes me laugh!!!
I have never said that Smith was a program programmed to hate "humans":that is obvious...I have not many post in this board,so read them to see and to understand my thoughts about that specific matter... I'm really sorry for you...if you haven't understood what I said and what Smith says...
And for the agents in the real world,I noticed that six months ago(when i hired the dvd) and I have been talking of that for months :you don't really believe that you "gave" me that argument,are you???
You really believe that you helped me to find a theory I have been developping for months over a hundred posts???
Do you think I am so stupid???
Well,I always asked people in this forum to answer me why they think Zion is real when we see Agents in the Real world in the Animatrix and not only to people here,but in all the forums I have been...You're a bit pretentions,don't you think???
And it makes me laugh!!!
I have never said that Smith wasn't a program programmed to hate "humans":that is obvious...I have not many posts in this board,so read them to see and to understand my thoughts about that specific matter...
Where did I say that machines have generated the Matrix???
Read me again and find where I said such a thing...
I said the Matrix is itself in a generated computer world...and I said that the rebels and the humans are the previous machines of Second Renaissance part one...Is it more clear???
Have you only understood what I was saying???
I never said that the sentinels are machines or that the machines we saw are real machines...If I say that Zion is not a real world that IMPLICITLY means that the machines you saw are also virtual...Don't you think that it is in the continuity of what I have been saying???
So prove me first that Zion is real and then you could use such arguments.
At least,you gave a good objection and I didn't believe that you would find it,because I had to deal with it myself...
Firstly,how do you know this is a "story effect" and this is only images???
Secondly:I won't discuss about the origin of Zion's Archives but have you a single proof that those Archives comes from the humans???
Do you really believe that if humans scorched the sky they will admit it or they will show machines like victims of stupid humans???
If they come from humans why are not the previous matrixes mentionned???
So you are very eager to point that what we see are just images but why don't you understand that what the rebels see are just images and not the truth???
If the Matrix is "a simulation",an illusion,why everything in it would be real,so real that it can help a "man" to pratice a "cardiac massage" to make a woman come back to life???
The spoon doesn't exist but the bullet that "shot Trinity" exists and needs to be taken off from "Trinity's body"???
Do you only understand what is a SIMULATION???
Untill now you haven't given me a serious objection to the fact that if 0-1 has been bombed with niclear weapons then there is no possible way that they survived...
And you haven't explain me how machines have been able to defeat the whole humanity(and in the Animatrix we SEE FIRST MACHINES WIN AND THEN ENSLAVE THE HUMANITY AFTER MAKING EXPERIENCES ON HUMANS...NOT THE OPPOSITE!!!!!!). "Why, Mr. Anderson, why? Why, why do you do it? Why, why get up? Why keep fighting? Do you believe you're fighting for SOMETHING, for more than your SURVIVAL? Can you tell me what it is, do you even know? Is it FREEDOM or TRUTH, perhaps PEACE - could it be for LOVE? ILLUSIONS(ILLUSIONS!!!), Mr. Anderson, VAGARIES OF PERCEPTION. TEMPORARY CONSTRUCTS of a feeble human intellect trying desperately to justify an existence that is without meaning or purpose. And ALL OF THEM AS ARTIFICIAL AS THE MATRIX ITSELF. Although, ONLY A HUMAN MIND could INVENT something as insipid as LOVE. You must be able to see it, Mr. Anderson, you must know it by now! You can't win, it's pointless to keep fighting! Why, Mr. Anderson, why, why do you persist?"
Well,it is a shame:you need a translation.
But before doing this,here are some questions:
-are freedom,truth,peace and love vagaries of perceptions???
Why would they be if Zion is real???
Well on using those words(vagaries of perception),isn't Smith clearly revealing to Neo that what could be his motivations are only illusions,in the strict meaning of this word???
-if Neo is human(or a man),how could he be a "temporary constructs" of a "feeble human intellect"???
-Smith stated clearly that the Matrix is artificial...Pick up your dictionary and look for its meaning and some synonisms.(you're right that's not a question)
- Smith is stating that love can only have been invented by a human...So how can love be an invention since it is an emotion???
If it is not itself part of the programming of Neo(and other programs)???
I could have taken Smith's other words from a previous dialogue where he stated things even more clearly or I could have chosen some interesting part of the Architect speech...
P.S:when I was talking of frustration,it was about the "inability to really discuss with people,because those people don't want to face the real problems and don't want to answer to simple questions"...It has nothing to do with anything else...Do you always misenterpret other people's words??? Smith
"Why, Mr. Anderson, why? Why, why do you do it? Why, why get up? Why keep fighting? Do you believe you're fighting for SOMETHING, for more than your SURVIVAL?
Yes, he was fighting for the people of Zion, and the rest of the people of the world, also the machines, maybe a solar system or a galaxy, or even more. Smith didn't see this because he thought that there was no way Neo was getting past him, no way of stopping Smith. He was fighting for more than his survivial but Smith just couldn't see this in any way. Remember Smith had been 'shown' a fake ending by the Oracle, he was deluded at this point.
Smith
Can you tell me what it is, do you even know? Is it FREEDOM or TRUTH, perhaps PEACE - could it be for LOVE? ILLUSIONS(ILLUSIONS!!!), Mr. Anderson, VAGARIES OF PERCEPTION. ?"
Maybe Neo could tell him what it was, but what was the point? Would he really have listened to him at this stage? There was no way Smith was stopping so maybe thats why Neo didn't answer. I'm sure if Smith had any sanity Neo would have explained what he saw. Your presuming he was a program and couldn't of fought for truth, peace or freedom because they didn't exist, well you could say that if your trying to tell us that everythings maya in a buddhist sense but i don't think you are.
Smith
TEMPORARY CONSTRUCTS of a feeble human intellect trying desperately to justify an existence that is without meaning or purpose. And ALL OF THEM AS ARTIFICIAL AS THE MATRIX ITSELF.
Smith is only speaking from his limited viewpoint as far as i can tell. He is so deep into his own ego-construct that he can't see any truth himself and therefore sees everything as a construct. Remember Smith IS a program, fact. He knows nothing about human feelings or emotions from a humans perspective and he knows nothing about what so many of us humans call a soul or a spirit. Everything is a construct to Smith, maybe because Smith is nothing but a construct himself.
Smith
Although, ONLY A HUMAN MIND could INVENT something as insipid as LOVE. You must be able to see it, Mr. Anderson, you must know it by now! You can't win, it's pointless to keep fighting! Why, Mr. Anderson, why, why do you persist?
Again, Smith has no idea and no point of reference at all here, whereas Neo has, even the Architect said that he was different, he was a lot closer to 'love' than the previous 'Anomolies' (A-NO-MORE-LIES? Could be onto to something here, Neo could of been the A-anomoly signalling no more lies? Forgive me, i've just got out of bed.) sooooo, how was love insipid? Smith never had no idea of love, Neo loved Trinity, and he loved her deeply. "I love you too damn much."
I'm trying to counter some of your points here and provide my own view of it, in no way do i believe that my views are anything more than ideas. Also, i did watch Ren-AI-ssance 2 again last night and i'm with Mobil-Ave-Neo on this one, i think the agents and the kid where symbolising Wo/Mankinds 'second' fall from whatever grace they had before enslavement to the machines. johnstanp:
Well sorry that I did not understood your words.
You are talking so vaguely and your English is not that super either.
So I cannot always understand what you are explaining.
Off course the Matrix is completely a SIMULATION. Didn't you read my posts or something??
I am only stating that Zion is real and that the humans are plugged in with their brains. In the Matrix they are code (programs) and the metallic plug converts their perceptions from the Matrix into bio-neural stuff and feeds it to the brain. So in fact they are constantly in some kind of dream state; the dream is being served by the Matrix.
Trinity's brain thinks she is dying because of the bullet. She is not the anomaly and has to comply to most of the rules of the Matrix.
Neo does not have to comply to any rule. He can see and understand her code completely and because of that he can also 'hack' her code and bend the rules of the Matrix, bringing her back to life.
Morpheus injects something into Trinity's arm (I think this is maybe to slow down the process of becoming brain-dead). Neo hacks her code, 'heals' her code and then her brain gets the signal that she is living again.
You still haven't delivered me the hard facts why a total simulation of it all would benefit anyone or anything?
If you keep ramming on about it without giving hard facts, I will stop discussing with you and start ignoring you.
Also..please try to fit your story into one post and don't use 3 posts for it. Keep it clean; other people want to read our posts too. Thank you! Kaneda:
I agree with you...except on the faking of the Oracle...
The Oracle can see through the entire equation and see past alot of choices.
She says it herself: "even I cannot see past the end".
She only sees that Neo and Smith will have a final confrontation. She cannot see past the choice that will be made during that final fight.
The anomalies (Neo being positive and Smith being negative) cannot be 'controlled' by the equation. That is why the Oracle cannot see the end.
The only 'influence' coming from the Oracle is that she lets Smith say "Neo" instead of "Mr. Anderson". At that point Neo remembers the last conversation he had with the Oracle and he now knows what he has to do: let the anomaly come to an end. Originally posted by Mobil_Ave_Neo
Kaneda:
She only sees that Neo and Smith will have a final confrontation. She cannot see past the choice that will be made during that final fight.
Correct...
Which is why the Architect tells the Oracle that she had played a "dangerous game" in the closing scene. She didn't know....but she believed. Originally posted by Mobil_Ave_Neo
johnstanp:
Trinity's brain thinks she is dying because of the bullet. She is not the anomaly and has to comply to most of the rules of the Matrix.
Neo does not have to comply to any rule. He can see and understand her code completely and because of that he can also 'hack' her code and bend the rules of the Matrix, bringing her back to life.
Morpheus injects something into Trinity's arm (I think this is maybe to slow down the process of becoming brain-dead). Neo hacks her code, 'heals' her code and then her brain gets the signal that she is living again.
You still haven't delivered me the hard facts why a total simulation of it all would benefit anyone or anything?
If you keep ramming on about it without giving hard facts, I will stop discussing with you and start ignoring you.
Also..please try to fit your story into one post and don't use 3 posts for it. Keep it clean; other people want to read our posts too. Thank you!
Well I said that it required me over one hundred posts to make myself understood in my own native language since it is hard to speak of something when using the wrong terms or when using words out of their concept...This is a hard work and this is why I am asking questions to make you intuitively understand what I want to point out...
Smith perfectly knows what is Neo,and he already said it more subtly before in one of their previous meetings:and you implicilty understood the opposite of what he was saying since the dialogue has been "filmed" in a way to make you implicitly understand the opposite or even to make implicitly lost the orientation of the dialogue and its purpose...
And this appears everywhere in the movie:even some names are used to darken the understanding of qome events since people will implicitly understand the opposite or at least something that has nothing to do with the real "meaning" of the name...
You want strong facts???Take the time to read what I have written up to now and you will see some strong facts...and I will not indefinetely repeat the same things:just be patient and take your time...
You don't want to discuss with me anymore???
So leave me and feel free to do it:I 've just started to realise that I have been losing my time all the time...
Why would that bother me that you ignore me if I know I am right???
Think about it!!!
So you'd better wait a dvd where the Wachowskis explain themselves why they have been able to say the complete truth all the time while they made people just understood the opposite...and they did it purposefully,using all the techniques of the "conventional cinema"...
About Trinity,there is not a matter of "thinking"...When Agents are shot,do you think they believe they die???
Do you even think that believing in your death will make you die???
If you had to die in a world you know to be fake,then why would you die,when you know it is fake???
Just because you believe it???But you know it is fake!!!!!!!!!!
Believing you're hurt will make you hurt???
Haven't anyone here already dreamt that he was dying???
Did he die or didn't he wake up knowing "instinctively" that it couldn't be true???
When you dream that you are hit,do you wake up and feel the pain where you have been striken???
Do you get up bleeding???
PLEASE!!!
You are so keen to believe in things that you wouldn't even believe in real life...
The Matrix is just as real as the real world itself for the rebels...For them any reality is a reality,and this is not because they "believe in what they see"...
When Neo "bleeds" while he didn't even notice he was "bleeding" after stopping a "sword"(the blood is not blood and the sword is not a sword...and that should make you think a while)...Did Neo believe he was hurt???No surely not!!!
Do you have notions of informatic or programming to speak of them???
I have some(to be humble),and to make people "bleed" in a computer generated world,you don't need them to "believe" it...
To be a "hero" in a simulated world doesn't require any "faith":it is so simple that anybody could do what Neo is doing and if they don't do it,this is simply because it is not programmed.Not because they don't believe it...
To you think that Neo believes in everything that is happening in the Matrix or do you think that whatever Neo sees it is what the Matrix shows him...Neo is not the "master" of what he sees:what do you think is the purpose of the Matrix(if we have to admit it is real)???
Even if Neo was human and Zion was real:how can a man be inside a computer generated world???What would you think would be the purposes of signals sent to the brain???
Would you really believe that they would be inside the Matrix or that the Matrix is inside their brain???
Even in thinking what you think,you can only see the incoherence.
Just think about it quietly...It is impossible that the rebels could be in "the Matrix"...IMPOSSIBLE...Otherwise why would it send signals to "human brains" to "blind them"???
The Matriw would only be in their "heads",of course,if I had to admit the hypothesises I made for this reasoning...
Do you only understand what I am saying???
Do you believe they would exit it???
How??? with a telephone???Isn't the telephone,itself virtual,and then only a "symbol"...there is no telephone line,to run to,to escape from the Matrix.It is only a "symbol",a "concept" that you have understood(I hope) has been created by the creator of the Matrix purposefully.
The rebels are not rebels...They just believe they are.But rest asured they all have their purpose,just like the agents.
So I will leave you in your debates and I won't interfere here anymore... "When Neo "bleeds" while he didn't even notice he was "bleeding" after stopping a "sword"(the blood is not blood and the sword is not a sword...and that should make you think a while)...Did Neo believe he was hurt???No surely not!!!"
---I think this is the director's way of getting the point across that, while Neo is |