the game proves the layer theory might not be right.

IN the last level of enter the matrix ,ghost and niobe actually Do use their emp, to disable the sentinels that are chasing them to the gates of zion. Their ship shuts down and so do the sentinels.
I think this might have been the reason the sentinels stoppped functioning near zion.
Neo beeing in a coma is what destroys my theory, if only I could come up with an explanation.
Maybe it explains that Neo is not 100% human?
what do you think?
I have seen both the movie and have played the game out!

-

I also have seen the movie and am almost finished the game. If anyone is interested, i'm going to transcribe plot critical fmv sequences from the game. Might help shed some light.

The architect himself says that "you remain irrevocably human"

Irrevocable = "Impossible to retract or revoke"

But if Neo is human and 'cant be changed' then why does Smith seem to think that part of him is in Neo now.

I don't believe in the Neo is part machine theory, yet.

As for Smith's comment about having some of Neo's code - it's an interesting comment but I think just that. A guess, a theory, a comment. It is a computer program talking to himself trying to explain his predicament.

I have been holding off, but I think I am going to have to watch the animatrixes and play the game to get deeper understanding here.

Also, comment about the Architect, most people agree he is a liar to some degree.

-WC-

I haven't been able to catch him in a single lie so far. Though, he DOES (as did the oracle in M1) use ambiguous statements that can be deceptive and true at the same time.

while in the matrix - the brain is interacting with the matrix and thus must be at some level code.

It would not be out of the realm of possibility that code between entities could be exchanged.

Smith thinks he has taken some of neos code.

The Architect also points out that while human, neo also carries code that needs to be returned to the source.

I believe neo is both, man and program.

Another observation. On the screens showing Neo's life, there are scenes aboard the Neb.

How do these scenes get on the screens if the neb is outside of the realm of the architect, outside the matrix?

WAS THERE?

That would be incredible proof that the Zion existance was actually an outer matrix.

HOLY CRAP! Can anyone verify this with the use of any downloaded means?

This is so important, I am making it sticky until verified true or not.

-WC-

I'm going to try find the Matrix Reloaded online somewhere, and if I do I will cut that scene and put it up here for anyone to download it and see for themselfs.

PS. I think I saw the Neb scenes too!

:D :D :D

You're right! I've seen it twice and I do remember scenes from the Nebuchadnezzar. I can't remember what the specific scenes were so I guess we'll still have to wait for a confirmation. But I know they were there.

crap crap crap, I want to goto see it again just to focus to this part...

Don't post it when you get it, it's copyrighted of course - but let's talk about it if somehow you do get a copy.

-WC-

i dont believe in the matrix in a matrix thing....think about it..... the wachowski bros have made the plot so hard to grasp in full..... why the heck would they take the obvious answer like that ... i mean seriously... its just not cool . it would make me dissapointed if it turns out like that

I totally agree with you , it would be too obvious for it to be a matrix within a matrix. Maybe that's what the filmmakers wants us to think.

I agree with the last two posts. I don't believe in a matrix>matrix theory. It would make the tight plot alot weaker!
Yet I ask myself how can the architect be sure that Neo is going to do the things he does. Since if Neo is out the matrix (when for example he is in Zion) they can't by any means control him. Or maybe Neo has been so long in the matrix they can sort of rely on the fact that he will do what he did. Or perhaps the Architect is a lier, but then that doesn't really make all that much sence either.:rolleyes:

I too remember the scenes from the Neb that flashed on the screens when Neo is talking to the Architect. Both myself and a co-worker have spent a bit of time talking about what's going on in reloaded, and the concept of 2 concentric matricies as well as a yet undiscovered "real" world seems to be the best explaination. Think of it like this: all ofthe background story we recieve about the matrix is true. There really was a war between man and machine, and machine's really do use humans as a source of power. In the beginning, there was just one matrix. This first matrix was accepted by 99.9% of the individuals that were inserted into it. It was that .1% that caused the problems with the first versions of the matrix, and caused the "loss of whole crops" that was discussed in the first movie. So the machine's created a second matrix, a matrix that was designed to satisfy the disbelief of that .1%. It's like using two ziplock bags when you're saving chili. One bag to hold the chili, and one bag to catch the leaks in the first bag. As the Architect points out to Neo, he part of a "systemic abberation" that by definition affectes the entire system of the matrix. The machines created the second matrix to attempt to deal with that systemic abberation, and I believe that Neo is one of the few individuals to transcend beyond the second matrix. He is the one individual that remains unsatisfied where the other disbelievers were fooled into believing that the second matrix was actually the real world. This is where he gains the EMP abilities that he exhibits at the end of reloaded, and why he enters a coma. I think he has been able to unplug himself (or at least remove his consciousness) from that second matrix into the real world. It's little like when epoch and switch are unplugged in the first matrix, except that instead of dying, he ends up in a coma. Ok everyone, have fun tearing that one apart.... :-)

It could be so, but that brings us nowhere, since then in fact the last movie would be about breaking loose from the second matrix. If so, the real world would still have to be introduced in Revolutions and who would still believe that this world is real?

True, but no one really knows what the last matrix could hold because look at where it's going to have to start from. Neo is in a coma, the human with agent smith's code is in a coma, Zion is gone, and there are only a few human survivors remaining..... what I'm struggling with is why the machine's are still digging.... what lies at the center of the earth that the machine's are trying to reach?

Maybe Neo and Bane are somehow programs and the emp effect them in that way,...they make them go into acoma....???

"Maybe Neo and Bane are somehow programs and the emp effect them in that way,...they make them go into acoma....???"

Neo went into a coma because it took so much of his energy to create the electro-magnetic pulse.
Not sure what the medical state of Bane is, but he's not conscious because of the injuries he suffered from the explosion of his ship when the EMP went off too early.


Gotta say: you've made a believer out of me. This Matrix in a Matrix is starting to sink it. It's the only explanation for the scenes of Neo in the Neb-- unless the Wachowskis screwed up.

"If so, the real world would still have to be introduced in Revolutions and who would still believe that this world is real?"

It would mean that the Matrix is it. The Matrix is the ultimate form of control, besides the Architect himself. I guess it would mean that no matter what we do, we're caught in this little game here. Stuck.

These are all good theories. Here are my 2 cents:

Why can Neo stop the Sentinals?

I think the architect/source controls both the Matrix and the machines on the outside (i.e. the coordinated attack on Zion). In order to give Neo unlimited power in the Matrix (and control his descisions to return to the source) the architect had to give Neo complete access to the source. It is like a God/Jesus concept. The architect never expected Neo to take the other door because as a machine he could not understand the concept of loving one person over the rest of mankind.

Why did Neo pass out?

I agree with the earlier post that he is part machine and thus his emp knocked himself out.

A side theory is the destruction of Smith in the first movie connected Neo to the collective machine conciousness and thus allows him to effect the sentinals and also caused him to pass out.

I agree.

I swear I saw the scenes, too. Can't wait to see verification - and delve further into what it means.

Spi

I don't specifically remember scenes from the Nebuchadnezzar (what a name to type!), but I'll take you guys' word for it. I think it was either an oversight (stupid one at that.) or it would be used later to explain why the M1-within-M2 must be true.

But theoretically, it can be explained (sorta): in The Second Renaissance (the first AniMatrix 'film') (<---You're right WildCard, watching them does pay off! ;)) you see the machines actually developing the hover-'thingies.' After that, you actually see them building the first of the 'Hovercraft' (like the Nebuchadnezzar, the Logos, etc.) From this you can tell that they'd know what the inside of one would look like. We also know that the Architect knows what the other major players look like. (If someone sees Tank, tell me about it! He should (along with Dozer)be 'unseeable' in the Matrix.'

Now the fact that they're using specific scenes, (that the Architect should know nothing about, or not the details atleast), can be attributed to laziness, or a tight budget: "Why make a whole other bunch of scenes, while you have a couple here that people won't notice the difference with anyway?"

Or maybe, very very maybe, the Architect watched the original Matrix movie beforehand, and decided he'd use some of the footage? :p

There was something else that I wanted to point out aswell, but I seem to have forgotten in the long writing of this post. If I think of it again, I'll let you know.

Now you know, I'm not saying that it can't be happening, (the M1->M2 thing), but all these theories can be disproven, however shaky the rebuttal may seem (like mine ;))

I'm glad to see people sticking with the idea of only a single matrix. Someone said the second matrix would be there to have the 1% who can't accept the first, put into the second and so they live happily there. So what if they get problems there? Who says they just can't build yet another matrix around that... and another... and another... etc etc. You can keep going for as long as you like.

Dang, I think I just found material for another gazillion Matrix Sequels :)

Now, the architect can of course follow what goes on in the real world. If a human can jack into the matrix, why not let a squidy download video footage into it? I mean, it's only data right?

unless the machines don't control the matrix...

Now, the architect can of course follow what goes on in the real world. If a human can jack into the matrix, why not let a squidy download video footage into it? I mean, it's only data right?

Awesome point. I'm back to neutral now. :p

Araxis ever since I saw that movie on friday my mind has done loops :) I'm constantly hopping from one leg to the other. the problem I think is there's so much 'evidence' but none of it is conclussive. You lack just that teeny bit of info to make it all fit and as a result, a lot of things can be explained and made to fit into a certain theory :)

If for one thing, the Wachowski brothers made a lot of people think... hard... and long... kudos to them for that!!!

my head hurts :)

PLay the game, then make youre conclusions!!!!!

The one thing that makes me think that Zion is another Matrix is something I noticed at the beginning of the film...

An all numbers view of a big space-station like thing is shown, it looks the way Neo sees the Matrix when he is there.

Later in the film, we are shown Zion: a multi-tiered giant space station looking thing. It is the same form as that of the "Matrixy" structure seen in the beginning of the film...

Sorry if this sounds wacked, but I just thought of it...

I thought of it, too - the "apartments" reminded me a bit too much of the "pods" in the people-crops. I don't remember what you mean about the all numbers view of a space station type thing though. Man, I need to go back to the theater.

Spi

i stand completely neutral but im believing more that neo is just all human. i just would be stupid for him to be part machine i think. but hey who cares what i think

Araxis' point of being stuck wouldn't be much of an end and I believe it would make a lot of (true believers) fans a little anxious to see their TheOne not being able to solve things out. Yet I guess it's possible:confused:
About Zion; it's not yet destroyed ((see Zion is destroyed thread if you want to argue about this)).
Just like "crahan" I think the matrix>matrix theory is not right because of more or less the same reasons: how many matrixes are there? Who's in charge? Do the machines even know they are inside a matrix?

Like Daei said in the first post, it is nairobe's craft which uses its emp on the sentinels - not neo. I dont know why he goes into coma but im intrigued by the earlier idea that he is part machine now because of his connection with smith - i dont know though, we'll have to wait and see.

Maybe the images surrounding neo in the screens when he see the the arc are maybe just projections of images / memories in neos mind. But of course then how did they get on the screen.

I think the most likely explanation actually is that the film cannot be perfect all the time - ill allow the W brothers the odd mistake here and there. The screens probably do not serve any purpose other than to entertain us - its well funny when loads of neos in the screens start swearing at the arc.

One things 4 sure though - the matrix in a matrix theory is false - it is another ships emp not neo. believe me

Yes, but there are also a lot of argumesnts against an emp theory. But again taht's already in another thread.

Originally posted by Terikan
unless the machines don't control the matrix...

The machines control the matrix. The animatrix nearly 100% confirms that. I'd highly suggest watching it if you haven't already.

The machines control the matrix idd.

Like Daei said in the first post, it is nairobe's craft which uses its emp on the sentinels - not neo

nonsense. the effect on the sentinels was obviously not an emp and nobody had a ship in range, not to mention the ship that came by right after, and if an emp had been fired, it too would have been disabled.

Originally posted by Terikan
nonsense. the effect on the sentinels was obviously not an emp and nobody had a ship in range, not to mention the ship that came by right after, and if an emp had been fired, it too would have been disabled.

In fact, the effect is nearly identical to how Neo stopped the bullets at the end of M1. He just raised a hand and they stopped and dropped to the ground.

Now, whether this is Neo realizing he's in another concentric Matrix and that Zion is just another measure of control is debatable (but we already know that from the other posts). Of course, Neo's connection with Smith is the opposing explanation for how Neo stopped the Sentinels. Assuming the Sentinels are networked to the Matrix, Neo perhaps has found a way (through Smith or not) to extend himself beyond the Matrix to other programs and therefore can control them or stop them.

I agree with Terikan on this matter.

Maybe I'm waaaay off here, but I think it works for the W. bros to have little plot holes. For argument's sake, let's say there is nothing meant by showing shots of the Neb. in the Arc. scene. But they have their fans talking about it. Fans that will maybe draw in more fans to watch the movies or buy the merchandise. Leaving little plot holes can make it more ambiguous as the audience can add their own ideas to teh story. It also makes the movies just a little different for each person. It's how cult classics are made. Personalized movies......sorta.....

Indeed, unless lots of things get explained in M3, the plot is an open one; free to interpretation.

Originally posted by TheDrakemaster
Indeed, unless lots of things get explained in M3, the plot is an open one; free to interpretation.

I for one hope they explain a LOT of it, but not everything. It'll be good to know most of the stuff, but it'd also be great if they left a few things unsaid so we can all form our own opinions and theories :)

good piont!:)

Lol, you are all wrong :)

Play Enter the Matrix and perhaps you will see that Niobe and Ghost don't fly anywhere near neo and crew. They are simply chased by sentinals, they cruise into some unchartered territory, destroy their pursuers and get stuck.

It was not Niobe's ship that picked up the crew of the Neb after it exploaded. That was the Hammer (or Hamman - sound alike). Niobe's ships is the Logos.

Edit: this also shows us that just as expected, when a ship uses its EMP it is also disabled. This is jus the way EMP works, it creates a huge spike of current across any circuits in its path.

This means that the ship that came to pick up the crew of the neb did not use its EMP against the sentinals.

Lol, you are all wrong

I wasn't :p

Originally posted by Terikan
I wasn't :p

I didn't read the whole thread, I only quickly skimmed each reply to see if what I was about to say had been mentioned already. So it seems the conversation has since shifted from the original post to another area about the neb.
So take my comment in reference to the original topic :)

Originally posted by StormCyko
Lol, you are all wrong :)


Edit: this also shows us that just as expected, when a ship uses its EMP it is also disabled. This is jus the way EMP works, it creates a huge spike of current across any circuits in its path.

This means that the ship that came to pick up the crew of the neb did not use its EMP against the sentinals.

Speaking of being wrong..

Maybe, just maybe, the ship that picked up the Neb crew was outside of the Logo's EMP range when the EMP went off.

And for those of you who think that the Neb. is shown in the pics that flash about Neo's life in the room with the Architect, you're wrong.

Want proof?
download this .gif of the entire scene where the pictures of Neo's life are shown.
(8 Mb)http://www.qdsicxp.com/qdsi_users/daniel/matrix/test.gif
AND
<1Mb (smaller resolution)http://www.qdsicxp.com/qdsi_users/daniel/matrix/test2.gif

Originally posted by StormCyko
Lol, you are all wrong :)

Play Enter the Matrix and perhaps you will see that Niobe and Ghost don't fly anywhere near neo and crew. They are simply chased by sentinals, they cruise into some unchartered territory, destroy their pursuers and get stuck.
This means that the ship that came to pick up the crew of the neb did not use its EMP against the sentinals.

What you mean we are all wrong. Ofcourse it was the Hammer and you don't need to play Enter the Matrix to know that, cause they even say it in M2. "Look it's the Hammer", or something alike. Besides lot's of people in here didn't believe in the emp-theory.

Originally posted by SecondChld
And for those of you who think that the Neb. is shown in the pics that flash about Neo's life in the room with the Architect, you're wrong.

Want proof?
download this .gif of the entire scene where the pictures of Neo's life are shown.
(8 Mb)http://www.qdsicxp.com/qdsi_users/daniel/matrix/test.gif
AND
<1Mb (smaller resolution)http://www.qdsicxp.com/qdsi_users/daniel/matrix/test2.gif

Thanks for that, I was getting pretty tired of that being used as an argument for the matrix in matrix theory.

On the topic of EMP, at the end of Enter The Matrix, Niobe and Ghost use the EMP on their ship and are stranded in the underground pipe system as a result. The ship appearing after the sentinels are stopped would have had the same problem and couldn't have recovered on such short notice.

Originally posted by crahan
Thanks for that, I was getting pretty tired of that being used as an argument for the matrix in matrix theory.

On the topic of EMP, at the end of Enter The Matrix, Niobe and Ghost use the EMP on their ship and are stranded in the underground pipe system as a result. The ship appearing after the sentinels are stopped would have had the same problem and couldn't have recovered on such short notice.
You're quite welcome. I wouldn't really like the idea of a matrix within a matrix idea. I don't think one way or another. It's possible, but I wouldn't like it. I want a happy ending.

EMP: Not necessarily. The other ship could've still been outside of the Logos EMP range. Remember, Lock said the Logos ship was too small, it's EMP "too weak" (from ETM)

ok, so there is no picture of the realworld in the monitors
that just means that you guy's need more prove

so here it comes

the matrix is controlling things in the realworld!

you remember the bridge on the third hovercraft breaking and killing the operator!!

the bridge breaking at that time causes the destruction of that hovercraft (if they where alive they could have moved or shot it like in the game))

the destruction of the hovercraft causes the third team in the tower to die and not complete there mision

that causes trinity to enter the matrix and fall from the tower!

and finely that causes neo to have to make his choice.


this is the cause and effect the movie keeps talking about

for some reson the matrix and the architecht need neo to make a choice and not give him one option.
also the choice he needed to make was known to Neo (he dreams of trinity falling) before the effents leading to the choice where set in motion.

so the machines needed this to happen (and it starts with something happening in the realworld)

so i conclude that the bridge breaking and killing the crew was subconsiusly known to neo and that could only be if the "realworld " is a other matrix

if the "realworld"is a other matrix then we need to rethink a lot of things
1) why are they holding us (the battery story is based on evidence in the "real world")
2) who is the enemy (the machines are part of the "realworld" and may or may not be the enemy
3) is the reson for us being in the matrix evil or is it for our protection!


thanks for taking the time to read all of this
if you can disporve this please do so.

Well, if the m>m theory is not true (and I think it tsn't) there are some diificulties in understanding. For example it's perfectly logical that the machine control theactions of the minds in the matrix a 100%, so that the one will become the way he is,..., but how can they manipulate Zion, so that Neo gets found and the 1% malcontent people get controlled? Perhaps they can't and that's why Neo got to chose otherwise than the machines would have wanted...:)

Which is also not true, cause he acted in an act of love. I guess I'll just wait for Revolutions.;)

Originally posted by TheDrakemaster
Well, if the m>m theory is not true (and I think it tsn't) there are some diificulties in understanding. For example it's perfectly logical that the machine control theactions of the minds in the matrix a 100%, so that the one will become the way he is,..., but how can they manipulate Zion, so that Neo gets found and the 1% malcontent people get controlled? Perhaps they can't and that's why Neo got to chose otherwise than the machines would have wanted...:)

???
you dont belive in a M>M so can you explain the bridge faling down and neo knowing about it forhand ?

and is being cousalty !!
the whole point of the movie

No, NOT causality, but Love is the 'whole' point of the movie. And the bridge was just broken, besides they would have still been bombarded if they hadn't fallen and did Neo feel that happening?? -->when??

1) bridge colapses
2) crew die
3) trinity enters matrix because the power is still on
4) trinity fights agent
5) trinity falls
6 neo needs to make a choice

now in the game they shoot down the bomb so if the bridge didnt break they might have lived
now that would still have neo end up at the architecht but he would not have a choice!

the choice he gets he already seen
before the bridge collapses

and dont tell me ït was just broke! i dont belive in coinsidenses.
more so in a movie like this one

why else put in that part??

btw a argument for love bing the point of the movie would be welcome but do support it! now you are just saying it!

what are you basing it on?
the sex sene or neo saving trinity

because thats like 2 min in the whole movie

mr.xontas, I understand that it is not possible if you are new to read all the posts, but I've already posted my explanations multiple times. But indeed if I don't say why I think so I better don't post at all, so next time I'll hypothise and try to proove with arguments.

The Architect says there's something different about Neo, the 6th anomaly, than his predecessors. He has a more personal experience than their overall experience: vis-a-vis love. So, it's his ability to love that allows him to make the right choice and enter the door leading to Trinity and the destruction of the matrix. So, it's the love/our feelings that takes us humans one step ahead of the all-logic machines and will (hopefully in M3) lead to victory of us humans.
I guess the machines better already start developing a new matrix, cause they haven't got control over the one anymore!:cool:

Originally posted by mr.xontas
btw a argument for love bing the point of the movie would be welcome but do support it! now you are just saying it!

what are you basing it on?
the sex sene or neo saving trinity

because thats like 2 min in the whole movie
SO, you need an argument for "love being the point of the movie". You want me to find a quote of.... maybe someone saying "basically, I see it as a love story..."????? Is that what you want.

This was linked from KeanuWeb.com to Moviehole.com http://www.moviehole.net/news.php?newsid=1591

an important quote (on Reloaded): “The morals of the films are that Love conquerors all, destiny, believing in your past, making choices that support your destiny, being responsible for the choices that you make, believing in something that you’re willing to fight for that you think is important, believing in good, freedom and believing that unless you have a choice then there’s no freedom. Having a choice gives you freedom and then it’s being responsible for that choice.”

And another (one the love scene): "It’s a beautiful scene and it’s important for the story, because it was significant to see the deep sense of love between them."


There's an argument.

Originally posted by Helix
I'm going to try find the Matrix Reloaded online somewhere, and if I do I will cut that scene and put it up here for anyone to download it and see for themselfs.

PS. I think I saw the Neb scenes too!

:D :D :D

Jesus firstly where have you been helix i thought you had fallen into a blackhole i missed you,

second, jesus download it man I have to know NOW. for god's sake I won't sleep now until I know

P.S Excuse my ignorance, but not having played the game who in the hell is this ghost im hearing about all the time??>!>!>!


*UT gets up from the pc and goes and does the right thing and buys Enter the Matrix.*

No "clips" from Neo's life outside of The Matrix are shown on The Architects monitors.

(I just stepped through the scene 3 times frame by frame)

Ghost and Niobe are the main characters in Enter the Matrix. There's nothing special about him; he's just a character to play the game with.

first off, i did not see scenes of the neb in the architect scene, but im not saying they werent there. maybe i just missed them. second of all, if they were there, it is not a plot hole; read on to see what i mean. i do not think that the pictures on the screen came from the matrix; they were thoughts in neo's head. the matrix simply interpreted his thoughts, and broadcasted them to the screens. when you see lots of Neo's on the screens saying different things, they are all of the thoughts going through his head. think of it this way; the matrix is a giant computer, and neo (or at least his mind) is a program. when he jacks in to the matrix, his mind enters the matrix, so his mind is like a program. the computer (matrix) is simply reading the information stored in the program (neo's mind), and then simply broadcasting it to those screens

Originally posted by Agent Anderson
first off, i did not see scenes of the neb in the architect scene, but im not saying they werent there. maybe i just missed them.


read up 2 posts in the thread.

read 7 (including mine) posts up. I made the entire clip available. If you think the Neb is on the screens, then download it and see for yourself.

Originally posted by SecondChld
read 7 (including mine) posts up. I made the entire clip available. If you think the Neb is on the screens, then download it and see for yourself.

huh ?
you must have totally misread what i said
I *know* that the Neb *doesn't* appear on the screens !

as i said...i watched the clip through 10 times frame by frame.
note: i have the centropy 3 dvdr telesyncer rip.. which is the best quality version available at present.

ZION WAS NOT DESTROYED. Its already been stated that this is what most of REVOLUTIONS is about the invasion and them fighting the machines. what they were talking about getting destroyed was the ships on the first line of defense that massacred and only Bain survived(hmm what a coincedence ;)

theres no need to discuss it. If youve seen the Revolution trailers you would know Zion is still there. the machines havent reached the gates of Zion yet.

Originally posted by Jbox
ZION WAS NOT DESTROYED. Its already been stated that this is what most of REVOLUTIONS is about the invasion and them fighting the machines. what they were talking about getting destroyed was the ships on the first line of defense that massacred and only Bain survived(hmm what a coincedence ;)

theres no need to discuss it. If youve seen the Revolution trailers you would know Zion is still there. the machines havent reached the gates of Zion yet.


You really should quote a post when you cuss it down !
Which post on this thread are you disagreeing with ?
I had a scan through and can't find it.