Flatland: a key to MAIM? (a bit long)

G.A.O.T.U.

There has been a lot of discussion pertaining to whether the first Matrix was just one in a series of matrices in the overal construct. Many, including myself, have postulated that Zion was not "reality" but rather a safety valve to allow those who reject the first Matrix to leave it but to still be a battery in the system. The actions in M2 and M3 were vague enough that there is enough wiggle room to argue either way.

My point here is not to discuss that further since there are other threads actively discussing the topic in more detail than many would care for. Rather, I want to introduce interested readers to a book that I think has something offer the general subject matter.

I did a search and was surprised to see no one (including myself) had previously mentioned a book called Flatland written by Edwin Abott and published in 1884.

This book is about a man who lives in Flatland, which you might have guessed is a world of two dimensions. He has encounters with beings in Pointland, Lineland and ultimately Spaceland. I will leave it up to your imagination as to the nature of those additional worlds.

What follows are two passages from the book. The first hints at agent-like activity and the other points more directly to the topic at hand, to wit, how would you know if a different world or dimension existed if your concept of reality precluded you from doing so?

from Chapter 12 Of the Doctrine of our Priests:

>>>It is the merit of the Circles that they have effectually suppressed those ancient heresies which led men to waste energy and sympathy in the vain belief that conduct depends upon will, effort, training, encouragement, praise, or anything else but Configuration. It was Pantocyclus -- the illustrious Circle mentioned above, as the queller of the Colour Revolt -- who first convinced mankind that Configuration makes the man; that if, for example, you are born an Isosceles with two uneven sides, you will assuredly go wrong unless you have them made even -- for which purpose you must go to the Isosceles Hospital; similarly, if you are a Triangle, or Square, or even a Polygon, born with any Irregularity, you must be taken to one of the Regular Hospitals to have your disease cured; otherwise you will end your days in the State Prison or by the angle of the State Executioner. <<<

Sound kind of like the agents?

Here is some text that makes one reflect on the nature of dimension, reality and how we would react when ecountering a reality we deem impossible:

From Chapter 15 Concerning a Stranger from Spaceland

>>>I was rapt in thought, pondering in my mind some words that had casually issued from the mouth of my youngest Grandson, a most promising young Hexagon of unusual brilliancy and perfect angularity. His uncles and I had been giving him his usual practical lesson in Sight Recognition, turning ourselves upon our centres, now rapidly, now more slowly, and questioning him as to our positions; and his answers had been so satisfactory that I had been induced to reward him by giving him a few hints on Arithmetic, as applied to Geometry.

Taking nine Squares, each an inch every way, I had put them together so as to make one large Square, with a side of three inches, and I had hence proved to my little Grandson that -- though it was impossible for us to see the inside of the Square -- yet we might ascertain the number of square inches in a Square by simply squaring the number of inches in the side: "and thus," said I, "we know that three-to-the-second, or nine, represents the number of square inches in a Square whose side is three inches long."

The little Hexagon meditated on this a while and then said to me; "But you have been teaching me to raise numbers to the third power: I suppose three-to-the-third must mean something in Geometry; what does it mean?" "Nothing at all," replied I, "not at least in Geometry; for Geometry has only Two Dimensions." And then I began to shew the boy how a Point by moving through a length of three inches makes a Line of three inches, which may be represented by three; and how a Line of three inches, moving parallel to itself through a length of three inches, makes a Square of three inches every way, which may be represented by three-to-the-second.

Upon this, my Grandson, again returning to his former suggestion, took me up rather suddenly and exclaimed, "Well, then, if a Point by moving three inches, makes a Line of three inches represented by three; and if a straight Line of three inches, moving parallel to itself, makes a Square of three inches every way, represented by three-to-the-second; it must be that a Square of three inches every way, moving somehow parallel to itself (but I don't see how) must make Something else (but I don't see what) of three inches every way -- and this must be represented by three-to-the-third."

"Go to bed," said I, a little ruffled by this interruption: "if you would talk less nonsense, you would remember more sense."

So my Grandson had disappeared in disgrace; and there I sat by my Wife's side, endeavouring to form a retrospect of the year 1999 and of the possibilities of the year 2000; but not quite able to shake of the thoughts suggested by the prattle of my bright little Hexagon. Only a few sands now remained in the half-hour glass. Rousing myself from my reverie I turned the glass Northward for the last time in the old Millennium; and in the act, I exclaimed aloud, "The boy is a fool."<<<

And so the cries similarly arise here that people who support MIAM are likewise foolish.

The whole meeting of Morpheus and Neo could be described by Section 16: How the Stranger vainly endeavoured to reveal to me
in words the mysteries of Spaceland.

Interestingly, the story of the book is set in 1999, the date of the release of The Matrix and roughly the year in which the movie is set.

You can buy the whole book in the usual places or read it online here:

http://ry4an.org/flatland/

G.A.O.T.U.
MatrixBeliever

i didnt read all of ur post, but reading about the different dimension made me tihnk of another book, its called "Time travel in Einstein's universe"
if u want something to F*uck up ur head try that, sorry i didnt stay on ur topic, but some of the book is about the different dimension and the 4th dimension-time
Valasher

Well, there are similarities in the book that you're referring to and the Matrix. But do you think they are really that parallel? I've never seen a book attempt to define the symbology of geometry, that's interesting.
G.A.O.T.U.

Originally posted by Valasher
Well, there are similarities in the book that you're referring to and the Matrix. But do you think they are really that parallel? I've never seen a book attempt to define the symbology of geometry, that's interesting.

Geometry was the main system of symbolic teaching for many ancient schools, including most notably the Pythagorean schools. But that is a different matter.

Flatland and the Matrix are both dealing with the questions "What is reality?" and "What is possible?"

When presented with the truth in the training program by Morpheus, Neo's reponses were:

"No. I don't believe it. It's not possible."

"No. Stop. Let me out. Let me out. I want out."

"Don't touch me. Stay away from me. I don't want it. I don't believe it. I don't believe it."

This is because he had no frame of reference by which to put the Matrix into context. This is the same as a person from Spaceland trying to describe a sphere to a person from Flatland.

When the Sphere attempts to teach the Square about "space", the Square's final reaction is:

"Monster," I (the Square) shrieked, "be thou juggler, enchanter, dream, or devil, no more will I endure thy mockeries. Either thou or I must perish." And saying these words I precipitated myself upon him.

The similarities in the themes are unmistakable.

G.A.O.T.U.
Valasher

Yes, denial is a common reaction to something that one cannot understand.

Have you seen Donald in Mathemagic Land? I love that cartoon.
G.A.O.T.U.

Originally posted by Valasher
Yes, denial is a common reaction to something that one cannot understand.

Have you seen Donald in Mathemagic Land? I love that cartoon.

I haven't. Is it on tv or is it a rental?

G.A.O.T.U.
Valasher

It's Donald Duck in mathemagic land. If you can find it at the rental store, then rent it. It's a Disney thing. But it's Donald learning about the pythagorean theorum among other things.
superman_0351

Originally posted by Valasher
It's Donald Duck in mathemagic land. If you can find it at the rental store, then rent it. It's a Disney thing. But it's Donald learning about the pythagorean theorum among other things.

Holy sh*t V I completely remember that cartoon, I've seen it 100 times... there are roman musicians, and hallways of shapes, and a pool table... awesome reference :) ...and thanks now I feel old :) ehehehe
Valasher

It's not pool, it's billiards. And I loved it as a child. Yeah, we're kind of old. :)
supaman

Ya.....definitely interesting, as I have never heard of such parallels. It was quite funny though......reading that.....but at the same time......brilliant.

So far.....math seems to be the universal language i think......and for the matrix...it would all come down to 0s and 1s.

Got another one. Although I forget the name of the book, I'll try to summarize it as best as I can. It was some tidbit info in one my college math or computer design books........forget exactly and when I have time....and find it.....I'll post the exact statement.

Now..like I said....the final programming language code comes down to bits (binary digits ...which are 0s and 1s). So the guy who invented the binary system.....to my surprise.....had a religious aspect to it. He figured that God had created the world out of nothing and therefore he wanted to come up with a system that could be represented by that........nothing (0) and something (1). Well.....the rest as they say is history. (As any number can be represented by just 0s and 1s which is the foundation of computers).

I'm not doing justice to this tidbit.....but it is something I read and just find it remarkably interesting that I never forget about it. Hope u get the jist of it.....but i'll try to find it and post the exact version.

(Just don't expect it anytime soon....lol ;) )
Terikan

gautu, I didn't read your post because you don't really demonstrate a working comprehension of the matrix movies.

however, it's MIAM, not MAIM. just thought I'd through that out here.
Ou Be Low hoo

Do you mean 'throw'?

Just thought I 'through' THAT out there.

Gator...all that junk is really, really boring.

ZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
G.A.O.T.U.

Originally posted by Terikan
I didn't read your post because you don't really demonstrate a working comprehension of the matrix movies.


While I have previously said that your ideas seem original and worthy of consideration, I have certainly disagreed with many of your concepts for reasons that I have posted elsewhere for whomever to read as they wish, or as they don't.

I would be more apt to be persuaded by you if your past theories had panned out a bit better.

For example, here's something you posted on 5/18/2003 in the thread neo let zion down:


seriously guys, do you pay attention at the movies.

Here is what happened. Zion was destroyed. They found only one survivor. Zion is gone.

Neo was given the opportunity to pick the new founders of zion, and have the matrix go on, or refuse, and the whole system would collapse, all humans die, matrix and otherwise.

ONCE AGAIN, ZION IS GONE. The Matrix will be destroyed in 24 hours from the end of M2. The architect said as much.

I've seen the preview for M3 twice, there are no indications that zion is still around.

Thanks... have a good one.


Zion still seems to be there at the end of M3.

You are as certain that you are correct with your theories today, as you were when you posted the above text.

G.A.O.T.U.
Ou Be Low hoo

I think there is only one way to respond to that...

Shenanigans!!!!!!!!!!!

Also, it seems a bit contrived that you are digging up material posted in MAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
G.A.O.T.U.

Originally posted by Ou Be Low hoo
it seems a bit contrived that you are digging up material posted in MAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Contrived means to think up or design. I did no such thing. I simply reposted words that were available to anyone using the search function on this site. Heck, if you wanted to, go search my posts and show me I was wrong. I would be foolish indeed if I were presented with arguments that disprove my positions and blindly held onto them.

While Terikan has presented a number of interesting ideas to contemplate, he is not always right, regardless of how much he demands everyone to think that he is under the penalty of receiving his scorn. You, Ou Be Low hoo, are not unscathed in that arena.

When presented with direct evidence that either disproves or weakens his arguments, he typically resorts to sarcasm. Often, the sarcasm is preceded by statements like are found in this thread, to wit, and I paraphrase, "I didn't read what you wrote but you are still an idiot."

Unfortunate, that. But everyone has the right to throw in their two coppers as they will.

Well, whatever. I usually don't deal with this ad hominem stuff but occasionally one must do so.

G.A.O.T.U.
Jebulum

Originally posted by supaman
Ya.....definitely interesting, as I have never heard of such parallels. It was quite funny though......reading that.....but at the same time......brilliant.

So far.....math seems to be the universal language i think......and for the matrix...it would all come down to 0s and 1s.

Got another one. Although I forget the name of the book, I'll try to summarize it as best as I can. It was some tidbit info in one my college math or computer design books........forget exactly and when I have time....and find it.....I'll post the exact statement.

Now..like I said....the final programming language code comes down to bits (binary digits ...which are 0s and 1s). So the guy who invented the binary system.....to my surprise.....had a religious aspect to it. He figured that God had created the world out of nothing and therefore he wanted to come up with a system that could be represented by that........nothing (0) and something (1). Well.....the rest as they say is history. (As any number can be represented by just 0s and 1s which is the foundation of computers).

I'm not doing justice to this tidbit.....but it is something I read and just find it remarkably interesting that I never forget about it. Hope u get the jist of it.....but i'll try to find it and post the exact version.

(Just don't expect it anytime soon....lol ;) )

you would except the matrix to work with qbits instead of bits to even work.

http://www.connect.net/smalling/quantum1.htm
Ou Be Low hoo

Desire controls a man of lust, so that is probably why you ARE dealing with this 'ad hominem' stuff.

It's a greater fallacy to cry infrequency than to accept your actions as diurnal.

I've read your posts and you indulge.

To say it isn't contrived is ballsheet...so you just randomly searched and found that quote from May!?!? Sure...you must have searched for hours.
G.A.O.T.U.

Originally posted by Ou Be Low hoo
It's a greater fallacy to cry infrequency than to accept your actions as diurnal.



"INFREQUENCY!!!"


Oops, there I go crying "Infrequency" again. When will I learn?!?!

What's the infrequency, Kenneth?

(Dan Rather quakes...)

That has got to be one of the greatest sentences I have ever read. Huzzah!

If you are suggesting that I routinely engage in ad hominem attacks, I would be very interested in seeing how I have done this. Search the archives as I have done and post what you will.

Unfortunately, some can't see the difference between engaging in debate over ideas and a person attacking another person. People who are so married to their ideas need to find a red pill right quick.


To say it isn't contrived is ballsheet...so you just randomly searched and found that quote from May!?!? Sure...you must have searched for hours.

Of course I picked a quote that satisfied what I wanted. But that isn't contrivance. It was simply there for the finding.

And the search function on this board is pretty good. It certainly didn't take anywhere near the amount of "hours" to find a miscue.

If you want to find postings I made that are clearly wrong, do that too. Start a whole new thread called "All the stuff G.A.O.T.U. got wrong!" That would save me a lot of time trying to find it myself.

Actually, it didn't take me very long to find the perfect quote. One where the statement was clearly wrong while being sublimely sarcastic and supremely emphatic.

G.A.O.T.U.

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