The MIM theory is totally bogus

Lately there has been a Theory circulating that Zion is actually another matrix..... I believe the contrary

First of all in M1 when Neo went to visit the oricle he sat down with one of the children on the floor and the child began telling him of the spoon. In short there is no spoon. The child was explaining that anything in the matrix can be manipulated bacuase it is not really there..... in M2 as neo was leaving Zion a man (I cant remember who off hand) ran up to neo and handed him a cruedly made spoon and told him one of the orphans had given it to him. Now what would be the reson to give neo confidence in his powers in the matrix if they were in a 2nd matrix?

Secondly when neo and trin were goin to the machine city in M3 and were faced by the defences they pulled up and raised above the scorched sky to reveal that there was a sun and an atmosphere. SOmeone explain to me what the point of programming in the sky in the 2nd matrix would be? to give the humans hope for a revolution?
I hope the machines are smarter than that.

Thridly It is explained in M2 by the architect that the oricle found the equation in which 99.9% of the humans accepted as the "real world" but those .1% needed to be contained bacuase they did not accept it. In his words "if left unchecked they could corrupt the balance of the matrix and cause a catacalysmic crash that destroys the program with it." (or something along that line) Now it would be impossible to make me believe that these .1% of the population would not accept one program and blindly accept a 2nd even though they know that there is a first and they dont question it. The whole reason that neo was pulled out in the first place is that he knew something was not right but he couldnt figure out what it was.

I'd bet it would sound bogus also, if you were to approach someone in the matrix, and tell them they were living in a computer program.

1. "The Matrix is built like a building, one foundation atop another" -- Zion is that other foundation.

2. Intro to M2, clock code resembles Zion's towering shafts, lit up with blue light -- looking like a matrix column itself. In Literature terms, blue = falsehood.

3. Intro to M3, we go through layers and layers of code to only enter the Hammer. Also, the code resembles the look of the machine city, after Neo and Trin come down from the clouds.

4. Neo stops squiddies the way he stops bullets, raising his hand. Another image relating to the matrix.

5. Through Neo's eyes, we see a light-cty, with balls of gold trafficking through it, like some sort of code -- which also resembles Seraph's code from M2.

6. Zion is a cave, represenative of Plato's cave, where the inhabitants of that cave know not what the real world is.

7. Morpheus in M2 says "Goodnight Zion, " and though they are all asleep, it's possible it has a double meaning -- that they are still 'sleeping.'

8. How can Zion be rebuilt from 23 people, especiall yconsidering the Zion before last "only lasted 3hrs" or 12 hrs, something of that sort. The Trainman says this in the video game.

9. Mountains in real-world are actually huge machines -- depicting how misleading appearances can be.

10. The Matrix needs to be destroyed the same reason Zion does: an anomaly in the matrix becomes an escalting problem. Society in Zion soon becomes an escalting problem. Both need to be destroyed and rebuilt.

11. Why don't machines just bomb the hell out of Zion, instead of having squiddies ravage everything? They need Zion, they need it to appear to humans that they still have hope.

12. "Loop train" -- is like a "loop program", where a program goes to a certain option, and tasks itself to run a loop. The matrix is a loop, running over and over again. "Loop train" is between matrix and zion, and zion needs to be rebuilt over and over again.

13. "Neo is trapped between the machine world and this world"? If neo can apply his abilities in the real-world, than it's not the real world. his powers have carried onto the next program (zion), which is also why he is such a problem to the condition of the matrix.

14. "The one was never meant to end anything, it was all a lie". If the prophecy is a liem it's probable that so is Zion.

Originally posted by sparty22687
Thridly It is explained in M2 by the architect that the oricle found the equation in which 99.9% of the humans accepted as the "real world" but those .1% needed to be contained bacuase they did not accept it. In his words "if left unchecked they could corrupt the balance of the matrix and cause a catacalysmic crash that destroys the program with it." (or something along that line) Now it would be impossible to make me believe that these .1% of the population would not accept one program and blindly accept a 2nd even though they know that there is a first and they dont question it. The whole reason that neo was pulled out in the first place is that he knew something was not right but he couldnt figure out what it was.

I'm still undecided about the MIM theory, however if you go back to Merovignian's speech in Reloaded...

Merovingian: Hmph... I am a trafficker of information, I know everything I can. The question is, do you know why you are here?
Morpheus: We are looking for the Keymaker.
Merovingian: Oh yes, it is true. The Keymaker, of course. But this is not a reason, this is not a `why.' The Keymaker himself, his very nature, is means, it is not an end, and so, to look for him is to be looking for a means to do... what?
Neo: You know the answer to that question.
Merovingian: But do you? You think you do but you do not. You are here because you were sent here, you were told to come here and you obeyed. [Laughs] It is, of course, the way of all things. You see, there is only one constant, one universal, it is the only real truth: causality. Action. Reaction. Cause and effect.
Morpheus: Everything begins with choice.
Merovingian: No. Wrong. Choice is an illusion, created between those with power, and those without.


This applies to why they are visiting the Merovignian, but could also easily apply to why they accepted Zion as being in the real world.

Originally posted by sparty22687
Lately there has been a Theory circulating that Zion is actually another matrix..... I believe the contrary



haha LATELY? ITS BEEN GOING AROUND FOREVER
anywaz if ur really openminded and listen to what everyone has 2 say you will find that there is no fact that can prove or disprove it , it comes down to what u want to believe, thats y the brother did everything the way they did

sparty- did u search on this topic b4 u posted a new thread?

Kungfu neo- there is no resemblance of zion in the intro reloaded it is simply the inside of the clock

Yes there is a resemblance. If you look at Revolutions, you can certaily see the resemblace.

In reloaded, you see coulumns of code forming a clock.

Look at the scene when mopheus says "goodnight zion".

and no **** its the inside of a clock. Here's some news for ya, the WB's insert little things here and there that are subtle, but have great meaning.

dude no ****, i know they do that
but ur wrong the beginning scene in reloaded doesnt resemble zion just because there is a big collumn in the middle, its just the inside of a clock
revolutions is a different story

your ague like a 5 yr old. watch again, it was deliberately designed for image reference.

I don't think Zion is physically jacked-in, but I think the brothers wanted to show that everything needs control; another "matrix". Watch the scene in Reloaded where Neo talks with Councilor Hamaan (sp?). It's the "What is Control?" scene from the Reloaded DVD (I'm sure most of you have it.)

kung fu neo

ok if ur talkin about the part that i think ur talking about, when i see a big column in the middle and some bars(walkways u would say) connected to it i also see big bolts or screws that i dont see in zion

For those who said that it has no way to be proven or disproven....you're wrong. There's just no one that has looked far enough into the movie (not to say that I have). Here's what I have to say:

The sky comment is very very relevant. Why would they make a sky? There would be no point. Absolutely none...yes Sparty, I certainly hope the machines would be smarter than that.

Now, onto my main point. Since I am a computer science programmer and student, I possess the knowlege that if any machine is given the ability to run itself (which is what I assume you're presuming is happening outside of the matrix we know and love/hate....machines controlling it), any machine would not account for any extra aspects which may be an exception to the coding. Here's a good example:

I program in java mainly since my current class' curriculum is that very language, but this is of no relevance since all languages would work the same. In more cases that are clausible to count, any program that you allow to run itself only runs with its parameters working according to what shouldn't be prohibited in the program. It counts on whatever is going to happen to happen accordingly and doesn't ever worry about anything not running according to it's orders. So when a fatal runtime exception does occur in the program...catastrophe is experienced. How does this relate?

If indeed there was a matrix outside of the one we know, the machines would have only made the real world a matrix in case of someone finding a way to get out of the other matrix. But they would have no reason to have another matrix because they wouldn't count on something like that happening. Consider what I have said, now let's throw in some content.

The first matrix (the one we know) is created. Everything is peachy out in the real world, people are accepting the program...the machines are drinking lugnut cocktails. Now as machines...their nature would disprove my preceding statement "....only make a real world matrix in case someone should get out of the matrix they made" (not exact...I know). They wouldn't think about that....they wouldn't be worried about a person figuring it out and waking up. This .1% would be the fatal runtime exception of the matrix.

But anyway, forgetting that and moving on. Then the real world machine would have to create a matrix out of the world they are living in which would be IMPOSSIBLE. That would be like saying...hmm I don't like the world we live in now...so let's create a world outside of this one so we can go live there. Nope...can't happen. So the only other thought would be that someone would create a matrix...find some way to get into that matrix themselves...and create another matrix inside of that one. Just "in case" something should happen.

In that case, it would be like the Thirteenth Floor (it's a movie...I suggest you watch it if you liked The Matrices), and that would be way to unoriginal for the WB's to use. I'm unsure when the 13th floor came out, but even when it did come out after 1999, it would be out very shortly after The Matrix...and the WB's didn't have the the WHOLE ENTIRE scheme of all three movies planned out. Somethings were changed while writing...some additions and subtractions and also during filming. Which would mean, such an idea of a MIM would form after the making of the 13th floor making the WB's copycats...which we all know they are not.

So yes it is possible to prove/disprove the MIM theory. I don't know if I have done it...but I've certainly made some head way.

Good day.

EDITORS NOTE FROM TheOne: I had to edit one word because it was the opposite of what I meant! This is only in here so I don't get messages like "Hey he edited his post!! He's an idiot! That shall be all.

TheOne edited a post! he's an idiot!

Just kidding.

The point you bring up is very intrigueing TheOne, but irrelevant. All the arguements are irrelevant, because the question of MIM comes down to this...What is the point of the humans?

Consider this. The reason the Matrix is created is to make people believe they are living a false world, so they can be turned itno energy. No problems there. But then what powers the Matrix? Obviously, the energy harnassed from humans living in the Matrix powers the Matrix, meaning the Matrix is powered by the machine world. No problems yet, right?

BUT, here comes the smacker. if it was MIM, then the power for the machine world Matrix had to come from somewhere. (It would come from the real world). So the real world powers the machine world which powers the Matrix, right? But why? If the machien world is another Matrix, there exists no point for humans. The humans are used to power the Matrix and the machines, which turn out to be powered by something else, meaning the whole deal is completly pointless. BEcause, technically the machine world is already powered, but was said to be powered by humans, but that power is unneccessary, and a program can't power itself, it means that humans are pointless and would be destroyed. The extra power needed to keep the second Matrix running negates all points of it. THERE IS NO POINT FOR A MIM! If tehre was a MIM, there would be no humans, because power would not be needed.

SECOND, in M1, it is stated that agents can take over anyone, provided that 'he is not aware'. Now, if the people in Zion are living in a Matrix, which nothing is said about, meaning that there is no awareness of it in Zion, the machines, using the same program code as agents, should very easily be able to take over a none-aware person in Ziona nd wreak havoc there. Also, if it was a Matrix, the machines could cheat, like they did with the agents, and make Sentinels dodge bullets or soemthing like that.

MIM was a cool therory between M2 and M3, but has one slight flaw. LOGICALLY, IT IS POINTLESS, FRIVILOUS, AND STUPID, ALL THINGS THAT ARE NOT USED IN PROGRAMMING!

Bloody good day.

Editor's note: Looks like I'm as stupid as you, TheOne, huh? Stupid keyboard didn't work...only put in half the words...

Originally posted by shadow280

SECOND, in M1, it is stated that agents can take over anyone, provided that 'he is not aware'. Now, if the people in Zion are living in a Matrix, which nothing is said about, meaning that there is no awareness of it in Zion, the machines, using the same program code as agents, should very easily be able to take over a none-aware person in Ziona nd wreak havoc there. Also, if it was a Matrix, the machines could cheat, like they did with the agents, and make Sentinels dodge bullets or soemthing like that.


This is the best point I have seen in any post about the MIM theory. He is totally right, if there was another matrix that controlls Zion why would Agent Smith torture Morpheus in M1 to get the access codes to the nebercanezer? so he can escape one matrix just to be thrown into a second one? I think not..... Agent Smith is connected to the mainframe.... hence he would know all that the mainframe knows..... and if there was a second matrix all his efforts would be in vein.

In short Agent Smith takes away all doubt in the MIM theory with his whole "i hate the smell the tase of this place... ect." There is no second matrix controlling Zion

Yes.....that is a great valid point.

But then according to the architect speech......Zion (being destroyed before as well) is rebuilt with 23 ppl by the one choosing 17males and 6 females, I believe.

Right.....so that whole "army" of 23 ppl are going to rebuild Zion from the type of destruction the machines wreak on them.

I don't think so......such things don't make sense.......and therefore lead to MIM and other such speculations.

And this will go on until the WBs point us to something concrete from their next media of information on the Matrix saga!

(Those other posts.....I don't even bother responding to...."Like....I was right....there is no MIM". Where the heck does this person get the proof that he's right. I think such posts have led to the demise of this forum).

Supaman Supaman....you didn't think very hard about your post now did you.

Yes, 23 people could very easily repopulate the real world....especially since it has been done 5 times before. Who says the humans would have to go back immediately to Zion....and the machines probably would be more worried about resetting the matrix and getting it to work right then trying to find 23 people so they could kill them. Since it's such a small group....it would be a small threat. Back to what I said in my last post....the machines wouldn't think about the humans being a threat until they actually were...they don't worry about what's going to happen until it happens. So that is a very flimsy point.

Also you said such things don't make sense but wait....you only supplied one argument. So it would be this thing doesn't make sense....and it does.

I very much agree with Sparty and Shadow...as the three of as usually do. As irrelevant as some of our points may have been....they all add up to equal the disproving of the MIM theory. By the way Shadow...that first point seems awful familiar..........hmmm, where'd I see that before........<cough>

It seems to me that it's not coming down to these people actually trusting the MIM theory because of good and throough backup points. It comes down too, they're too stubborn to admit that they are mistaken and so they say.....well it can't be the real world because then the BO on Laurence Fishburne would be unbearable. Give me a break!

If you guys present reasonable arguments then I will acknowlege them, but as for now please stop with the posting of flimsy points. It is a waste of typing for myself and reading for those who do actually read it.

I bid you good day.

Hi guys, it's good to see people still here with intelligent ideas in this forum!

One mistake i think anti-mwam'ers could be making is that they are assuming that another matrix outside of the real world would be pointless because then the whole idea would collapse, BUT what if MWAM exists because a BENEVOLENT power has created it as a test for humans to overcome as part of their evolution?

Don't know what you people will think of this, if you hate the idea, flame away..............

TheOne, why is that idea you stated seem familar? Could it be I told you about this several weeks ago, and then you took it? THIEF!

And Eon, your idea about a benevolent power is intriguing, but there are a few flaws. First off, it would become evolution o fthe mind, not the body, which kind of goes against the theory of evolution. However, that is a weak point, so toss it out if you want to.

More importantly, what kind of Benevolent power would make a system that kills off most of the people? It ain't something wanting to make us evolve. It soemone wanting to watch us suffer for amusement. And again, if the machines were the control, they could cheat like I already stated.

Bloody good day.

Originally posted by shadow280


SECOND, in M1, it is stated that agents can take over anyone, provided that 'he is not aware'. Now, if the people in Zion are living in a Matrix, which nothing is said about, meaning that there is no awareness of it in Zion, the machines, using the same program code as agents, should very easily be able to take over a none-aware person in Ziona nd wreak havoc there. Also, if it was a Matrix, the machines could cheat, like they did with the agents, and make Sentinels dodge bullets or soemthing like that.



Bloody good day.

Editor's note: Looks like I'm as stupid as you, TheOne, huh? Stupid keyboard didn't work...only put in half the words...

ok this is incorrect just think about it, even if there was an MIM the machines would not "wreck havoc" in zion by taking over the humans because if they did they humans would say "hey wait a second, this isnt right" and they would have to question that reality, the machines wouldnt take that chance, anywaz they dont need to wreck havoc, the machines know they can destroy zion anytime they want to they just wait in order for the population to get big enough and for "the one" to come around

and to TheOne- u said "The sky comment is very very relevant. Why would they make a sky? There would be no point. Absolutely none...yes Sparty, I certainly hope the machines would be smarter than that. "

if u know about the comic books and even the animtrix we know that people do sometimes go to the surface of the earth, there are many differnt stories about this. so to answer ur question
y would they make a sky?
they would simply to make sure that if humans did in fact either go above the clouds they wouldnt see nothing, or just more code, or run into a wall just like in the truman show, cause if they did they would question thier reality and possible wake up from that 2nd matrix, you can also consider that maybe not all of the sky is torched, maybe there are holes in some places and if so what about the poeple that walk around on the surface looking for relics like "hunters and collectors"(a comic based on the ideas n concepts of the bros)

so that is another example that cannot be used
dont get me wrong i do not BELEIVE that it is a MIM, but there has been no solid evidence to prove or dissprove it either way, it all about perception, try searching older threads about this topic and u will c y, infact this thread should have enver been made since there are millions of threads on this topic

i dont have much time now but im sure u guys would like to keep arguing y there is no MIM so ill try n come back n dissporve all ofthe reasons y people either think the MIM is real or not

Theone8742,

Good point and I agree I should've done my homework on that.

Also to add what MB already stated, u very well know that we've exhasuted this issue before as I remember you and one of your buddies (oh wait....."your "shadow"....right?) discussing this on another thread.

And likewise this one should not have even made it this far.

I bid u good day as well!

what do u mean "my shadow" are u inplying that i created a clone account or are u just saying that cause me and super agree on alot of things?

ps ur rightit shouldnt have made it this far but the reason i posted on this one is because i saw arguments that i hadnt read before and i had to prove that they werent strong enough to prove or disprove the MIAM thoery

Hey. I be no clone. TheOne and I are two difefrent people, he just sits next to me in computer class, and we post on the same threads. WE ARE TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE! IF you look back at previous posts, you'll see that the times for posting ar enot possible for one person, because I have literally posted on TheOne's comment teh instant he posted his.

Anyways, to say soemthin about people waking up in the Matrix, we saw in M3 it was not possible for humans to escape into the sky for several reasons:

1. Defense. A regular human would have been blown to bits a long time before they could even begin acceleration upwards towards teh sky. the only reason Neo made it was his ability to blow stuff up by looking at it.

2. Acceleration: The only reason teh hovercraft go thte speed boost to make past teh clouds is teh explosions pushed it up, like a rudimentary combustion enhine.

Basically, the machines created a defsne so impregneable, no human could make it into the sky unless it wasa superhuman, Neo. The chance of 1 person "waking up" would not be worth the bother of programming a sky, sun, stars, etc, etc. There would be no point to program a sky, and thus no sky would be made.

No MB he's talking to me about shadow280 since we agree on most everything. Very good points...but again it comes down to the computers not understanding what would be best for their colony....

If the agents...which are programs are programmed to destroy any rebels that "woke up"...they wouldn't care if they woke up from the first matrix....they still would have woke up from SOMETHING bringing them closer to the real world...and agents like Smith wouldn't care about the possibility of them waking up from that matrix....they would try and destroy them because they are still some kind of rebels.

Plus....I think sparty mentioned this but I don't remember....you cannot tell me that rebels who figured out a world that wasn't real and woke up from it would not ever once think about the world they woke up into being unreal. I know many people (i.e. myself) that think about this all the time in OUR world. It's not like people would just be satisfied with waking up into a world that's so called "real" and never even question if that world was real. I mean c'mon.

Also, there would be ABSOLUTELY NO POINT WHATSOEVER to many of the interactions between the programs and the humans. They wouldn't call it "free" if they weren't really free. There would be no point to a war at all, because it's not a war for anything. The machines would get their energy from another source since they really wouldn't exist. So that therefore destroys any purpose in harvesting humans for energy....even though they need to. You cannot tell me that all of the machines would take this many precautions just in case .1% of people woke up. They wouldn't even consider that as I said in some of my earlier posts. Programs only worry about what they are programmed for...I encourage you to examine my earlier post....it has a lot of relevant information about programs and machines...

Good day.

ok shadow and TheOne,
can u see how all im saying is that ur evidence isnt strong enough? its hard to debate with you guys when i myslef BELEIVE zion to be a real world , but i do believe that the brothers threw in some things in order to keep the debate debattable, lol i hate to say it but i wish terikan was here...........................
uuuuugggghhhhhhhh
anywaz
sparty said
1. Defense. A regular human would have been blown to bits a long time before they could even begin acceleration upwards towards teh sky. the only reason Neo made it was his ability to blow stuff up by looking at it.

2. Acceleration: The only reason teh hovercraft go thte speed boost to make past teh clouds is teh explosions pushed it up, like a rudimentary combustion enhine

i dont see these as strong because we really dont know how strong the clouds are, ur assuming, i mean who knows maybe the osiris could have gone straight up into the sky they just didnt think about that they thought about going back down into the earth, i know the example of there being holes in the clouds is also an assumption but im saying since we dont know, it could be true

TheOne said
Plus....I think sparty mentioned this but I don't remember....you cannot tell me that rebels who figured out a world that wasn't real and woke up from it would not ever once think about the world they woke up into being unreal. I know many people (i.e. myself) that think about this all the time in OUR world. It's not like people would just be satisfied with waking up into a world that's so called "real" and never even question if that world was real. I mean c'mon.

this is true but one that believes in the MIM thoery could respond with "well theres only 250,000 people in zion and the odds are against someone realizing zion isnt real" u know what i mean? since there are so many people in the matrix so many more wake up, if someone did wake up then nobody would have even been needed to help them realize(like morpheus did to neo n trinity) becuase it could happen just like kid woke up, maybe the bros put that story in there for that reason

also,
i can dispell ur argurment about agents, i have actualyl done it before but i have my physics151 exam today n i need to get some stuff done before it, so i wont be able to be online alot today
but let me leave u with this since one of u takes a programming approach,
smith is a program inside the matrix and does not nessessarily know everyithng the mainframe does, he is a small section of the matrix program, so he can still fight the humans to give the illusion that they have something to fight for


ok i did a search and i finally found what i was looking for i ithnk
here are two posts that ill put together, keep in mind they are very old and i may have changed my mind some from then, but i need to go eat n dont have time to check them, if i dont post in a while dont think im avoiding u guys im just busy but do want to further the convo, although we all must have beat it to death by now

[[[[[[[[[[but super, in case u dont know i want to let u know i am totally against the MIAM, but try n think about this
ur example of y there is not a MIAM is not good enough to hold weight, it can be counteracted with this
the agents are programs, programs that are single minded and not as smart of the architect, try to think of them as a lower type of species, they are programmed to do things, so even if there is a MIAM they can still want to try n get the zion codes, because they dont know any better
the architect created them in order to make those that are unplugged feel like there is a real, deadly serious battle going on, it cant b too esay right? thats y many people die from agents but in the end they arent programmed to b stronger than "the one"

like i said i am against the MIAM, there is not evidence one way or the other i tihnk(i could b wrong) but what tells me that there isnt a MIAM is the fact that the whole story would b pointless, so many themes i nthe movie would go away, love, hope
the brothes would b saying there is no hope for mankind
if u think of a MIAM then it just keeps going there is no end, this is a schifi movie but it is still based on some type of conciousness and understanding of humanity and reality
i am suggesting that possible the brothers are suggesting that there may be a reality in a reality, meaning, that in reality, in our lvies today there is practically no way we can know if there is a higher level of being or not unless we transcend to that level, but if we do how will we know that that is the highest level and there isnt a higher one
but i highly dought the bros created a stupid movie where the humans will never b freed and there is no purpose for them at all
maybe they will never tell us, maybe they will alwaz leave it up to interpretation, but i think those that think there is a MIAM just have bad taste in stroy making, but every1 is free to thier own opinion]]]]]]]]]]]]
and
[[[[[[[[[[[[[[take ur statement: If the real world was a matrix, then in essence EVERY HUMAN BEING would be plugged in, creating no threat of unplugging, and hence, no need for agents (almost like agents being there almost helps disprove it).

My comback is that the agents are there only for illusion, they have to be there since rebels are there, if there were no agents then the rebels would have a much easier time freeing people and finding the one, then it wouldnt seem to real to them maybe(this may be wrong, if they never knew waht an agent was then maybe it would seem just as hard t o free minds) but also if the agents werent there then the one would not go through that much of an enlightenment, he would never go through thinking "i cant beatthese guys theyre too strong, no wait i am the one, i can beat them, this is not real"
if he doesnt go through this thinking then his struggle would b totally different, the system of control would b totally different
does this make sense?

also its interesting to see how the stroy in M1 is focused on the agents, and then in M23 it cahnged to somethin much bigger
remember when morpheus said "they are holding all the keys they are guarding al lthe doors and (sometihng along the lines of u wil have to fight them to end the war)"
but what doors? what keys? were they in control of the keymaker? and i looking into this statent too much?
and y did it turn out that to save zion and end the war the agents were kinda a backstory, the ones never had to really fight all the agents and such, the ones only had to go to the source, and choose a door]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

Ok first of all Believer i never said anything about the defenses of the machine city or any acceleration. i mearly stated that the AI would have no point in programming a sky into the MIM because it would give the humans a false sense of hope..... in escence they would be propelling the humans to revolt..

Did you ever think of the way the sky was portrayed? When they burst through the clouds the sun was a bright aw-inspiring orange-yellow prosuemably just before dust when the sky looks its greatest. Now my belief is that the sky was portrayed this way to give a little foreshadowing to a brighter calmer future.... the WB could have shown it at night or anyother time of the day, but they didnt. They showed an aw-inspiring sky to give the humans hope and to push them on.

and as for the agents being illusions.... that is pretty far fetched. If you remember all of the merovingian's hechmen are all old programs that went into exhile when faced with the CHOICE of deletion. I took it that these old programs with special powers are old agents that had been "upgraded". We do know that the matrix continually upgrades itself with better agents as stated by neo in M2. If the matrix just put these "agents" in the Matrix as an illusion why would the matrix spend time and energy analyzing these agents and creating upgrades? That seems to me a little beyond a programs capability to create upgrades for an illusion.... does it strike u funny as well?

I must admit Believer...I didn't read your whole post since I haven't the time...but I must say this.

From what I read, I notice you say something like "well one could say"....or something. If you pull in a what if like that....anything can be said by anyone. What if's can be wondrous in a questioning and dreaming sort of way....but when you use them for the sake of an argument it is quite repulsive as a reader. Now, I am not trying to flame or badmouth you in any way...I'm just commenting on what I see a lot of the time in posts.

For example I could say this:

Well what if Neo flew around really fast in the matrix and made it a huge program tornado....and after destroying it went to the real world and tried as hard as he could to wake up from that world. Then after taking a **** break...he again tried and got nothing. Since he has the most powerful mind....the MIM theory is false.

Comical...maybe. But credible, definitely not. I'm not saying that you are displaying poor information....but another thing I would like to mention is why would you post for the sake of argument? It is utterly pointless and goes along with my previous posts. If you are arguing with good information on something that you believe...then by all means please continue on. But if you are going against your beliefs and arguing just for the sake of arguing...it is an empty sided argument therefore obliterating any common reason to try and have a healthy discussion.

My first forum ever was one on Xbox.com by some guy stating that "Halo is unrealistic". I didn't even have an xbox at that time...and I still don't own Halo, but I still argued, falling in to the guys trap. It went on for a week, but I finally understood. He was just looking for attention....he didn't honestly try to convey upon anyone the idea that it's unrealistic....he just knew it would bring about a stir. This is the precise reason why shadow and myself started the thread "smith is really a girl?" It wasn't because we honestly believed it, it was because we wanted to show people how easy it is to upset them over something so small.

Now I agree in the sense that this is largely hyppocritical, but even so I just want to say. Argue for what you believe, even if it has nothing to do with the Matrix. Beliefs are a single idea that bring about great strength...and when you are standing behind them you find power where you never thought you would have it. Since you are arguing with no belief to back you up...this is why you are saying things like "one could say" or "well even though I don't believe it....a believer could say this". Argue with a prupose...not with an intent on disproving someone with faulty integrity.

Good day.

Originally posted by TheOne8742
I must admit Believer...I didn't read your whole post since I haven't the time...but I must say this.

Now I agree in the sense that this is largely hyppocritical, but even so I just want to say. Argue for what you believe, even if it has nothing to do with the Matrix. Beliefs are a single idea that bring about great strength...and when you are standing behind them you find power where you never thought you would have it. Since you are arguing with no belief to back you up...this is why you are saying things like "one could say" or "well even though I don't believe it....a believer could say this". Argue with a prupose...not with an intent on disproving someone with faulty integrity.

Good day.

i think u have me al wrong. im not argueing for arguments sake. I do BELIEVE that there is no MIAM, but i find no solid facts to prove or disprove it. I BELIEVE it because it is a feeling inside me. Just like I beleive in God but I cannot prove it. It is the way I want the story to go. I feel that a MIAM would make for a horrible story(not a good mind bender, refering to the RIAR post i said earlier). And this is why I feel that the bros made thier story with an openending to an extent, for you to believe what you want to believe(since belief is one of the many themes in the matrix)

Yes you can prove/disprove it. Regardless, I didn't judge you in any way and I'm sorry if you took it that way. I was speaking in more generic terms. Anyway, I'm just saying if you believe in something fight for it, not for the fact that you don't think that something can be proved or not. If you that's how you want the movies to go......then in all logical senses you should try and disprove it. It is possible, unless you close your mind.

Good day.

Well, I'm not going to post in depth as you did, as it is completely pointless. The basis of your arguements are by far all assumptions. Which clearly shows that none of you can prove anything. It was purposely left open, so the people could pick it apart with their minds. No matter how much you guys argue, none of you will be able to prove your point. Also, even if you did, you would be inable to make the opposition understand.

Now, I deem it completely possible if the entire 'real' world was another matrix. Perhaps they wanted to give Neo and Trinity hope by going above the clouds. If they had nothing to worry about, and the ability for Neo to invade and fight Smith to 'end' the troubles in the other matrix there would be perfect reason to do so. At the end of the matrix the humans were going to stop fighting. They were going to co-exist with the machines. It is the ideal situation for the machines. The freed, rebellious humans were going to just live with it. Leaving them trapped in the matrix. How else would the machines survive. They would just free the humans and **** themselves over. That would be asinine. If they got energy from the sun and then used the humans it would perilous to release them from the Matrix. If there wasn't a matrix people would awaken, and would be giving the machines their precious energy. Where then would the machines turn? Just wondering if someone can answer this small enigma for me.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying, but what is, is this. If the MIM is true, then and teh rebels are used as energy, the real program (the real world) would be losing energy because more of that energy is being used to power the second Matrix. Logistically, because teh energy would already be porivded and since if it is MIM the energy is split in ordeer to power both programs, there is no purpose. Therefore, nopurpose, no A.I. would use it, therefore, no MIM

We're not assuming....we're observing. This is a topic that can be proven and is open to very healthy discussion. Look back at what we said (the non-MIMers)...those are all perfectly acceptable observations that with a few more twinks and so on, this theory could be proven or disproven. So, please stop saying "this can't be proved" and just try and argue your case. The point of this thread was not to say whether it was/not able to be proven....it was to prove/disprove it. So start proving and stop complaining! If you want to say it can't be proven....start your own thread called "The MIM theory can't be proven" and then you'll draw your crowd there.

Good day.

Originally posted by TheOne8742
Supaman Supaman....you didn't think very hard about your post now did you.

Yes, 23 people could very easily repopulate the real world....
I bid you good day.

23 people to reach 250000 entities in 5 generations, using either reproduction (which takes 9 months) or salvation from the 'trix via spaceships ( they have less than 15 of them, the travel taking weeks like shown in M2, besides regeneration of the muscles of the person saved would also take months). Sure your calculator is working correctly ?

Hehe....Ya..that's what I'm trying to say.....that there is awful lot of inbreeding that can.....well.....dement the humans.

But leaving such technicalites behind, One8742 has a valid point that there can be enough time for Zion to grow until they find the next anamoly or that the machines wouldn't worry about them until they became a danger.

This is for now, but its not over .....just yet!! ;)

i might have missed a point somewhere in the thread, so i'd like if you could point out how ?
3 facts: 100 years
23 people
250-000, 1% of the population when the anomaly occurs.

that would represent saving one person a day per ship everyday for 1 hundred years.it's hard to believe and nothing has been shown to showe us rescue was happening so frequently.Neo's ship never rescued anybody for about 3 movies.

another one

MIM was a cool therory between M2 and M3, but has one slight flaw. LOGICALLY, IT IS POINTLESS, FRIVILOUS, AND STUPID, ALL THINGS THAT ARE NOT USED IN PROGRAMMING

Remeber Sati ? isn't she pointless, frivolous and a bit dumb ?

The sad thing is I thought about the lack of people after I posted....but ah well. The fact is it happened 5 times already...whether you like it or not. The Architect says it. Watch that scene again....it is very very largely hinted at.....if you don't catch it let me know and I'll spell it out for you.

As for you Sati comment....it's absolutely and completely different. If there was a MIM, the entire world of the second matrix would be pointless. Sati is supposed to symbolize a new kind of world....a freedom among programs. A MIM would just symbolize pointlessness.

Good day.

Originally posted by Jebulum
23 people to reach 250000 entities in 5 generations, using either reproduction (which takes 9 months) or salvation from the 'trix via spaceships ( they have less than 15 of them, the travel taking weeks like shown in M2, besides regeneration of the muscles of the person saved would also take months). Sure your calculator is working correctly ?

Here is the thing there has never been a date in which the real world was set in.... they believe the date is 2199 (that might be wrong but its close) but in fact they have no idea, morpheus said so himself

It could have been 5 generations it could have been 200 generation you never know.

well, they ought to know it lasted 100 years, as morpheus stated several times, because you just don't loose track track of your ancestors, you usually keep records of them, and for how long your familly has been there. All they would be missing are the informations about what happened before this cycle. i interpret it as a plot hole, but some people could see the MIM theory in there.

Sati is a program without purpose that must suffer exile because of it, therefore was created without purpose.

in the same way, the matrix could be another pointless program from another simulation, i don't see the anhilation of the MIM theory in the quote i posted above.

Originally posted by TheOne8742
We're not assuming....we're observing. This is a topic that can be proven and is open to very healthy discussion. Look back at what we said (the non-MIMers)...those are all perfectly acceptable observations that with a few more twinks and so on, this theory could be proven or disproven. So, please stop saying "this can't be proved" and just try and argue your case. The point of this thread was not to say whether it was/not able to be proven....it was to prove/disprove it. So start proving and stop complaining! If you want to say it can't be proven....start your own thread called "The MIM theory can't be proven" and then you'll draw your crowd there.

Good day.

come on now TheOne, grow up, dont just try and kick people out that are talking about the same topic u are talkin simply because they disagree wiith u. You did come to this forum didnt you, u came to talk to other people. What did u expect? FOr everyone to kiss ur feet and say ur right, ill follow you!

Hey I'm not kicking Jeb out. I don't give a crap what people post as long as it's not "wah wah wah it can't be proven blah!" This thread is about proving/disproving it....not saying whether it can or can't be proven. Good day.

well, if one can be disprooven, then the one which is left must be correct, unless you have an alternative theory that cannot be disproven either. i haven't seen any proof from one side or another so far, just facts that can be interpreted from different angles. As you stated, an observation requires an object observant. proofs are facts. an obvservation is an interpretation of facts from an object, therefore a theory cannot be prooven from personal observations (a few twicks = interpretation).

ok the MIM is called a theory for one reason.... its just that.... for a theory to become what they call in the science world a law it must be proven without a shadow of a doubt

We do know however that there is one matrix and that the real world is just that REAL

So far in all of the post i have read there has never been one single shard of evidence that cannot be disproven that supports the MIM theory.....

I sort of compare it to The Bible.... alot of people believe that all of the stories in the bible are just made up stories to get people to follow Christianity.... but the bible is the one book in all of history that is yet to be disproven. I feel that this MIM theory has so many holes i could drive the Nebercanezer through it. People who "support" this theory have these ideas that "Oh he stopped the sentinals with only his hand they must be in a second Matrix" But in fact he never stopped the sentinals with his hand at all. Even in the matrix he never stopped any bullets with his hand.... it was his mind that did it.

As the oricle so elequently explains in M2 and the video game the one has powers that stretch beyond that of the matrix. Meaning that not all of his powers lie just within the matrix. When he inserted the key into the door in M2 he went into the source room. No he didnt reset the program but he did enter the source. When he did so his mind had a connection in that. Considering the source not only supports the matrix but also the machines in the real world neo is connected to the machines in the real world as well.

Because Neo is connected to them he can "stop them" and even locate them even though he cannot see. In the end of M3 he sees the machines without his eyes because he is connected to the source... to control any machiene the main source must have a connection to it.... like a wireless modem..... since neo is connected to the source and the source must have a connection to the machines and the sentinals he can also see the machines

you are in a non mim theory loop for me.

All you consider as factual is to me like your interpretation of the movie. And i think that was simply intented by the directors.
i don not believe the MIM being true for a simple fact. There would be little point in telling the story. However, having looked upon their views, i really don't see why their argumentation would be less coherent. and i'll tell you when i see the see opening in two, or someone walking on the water.

Originally posted by Jebulum
you are in a non mim theory loop for me.

....... and i'll tell you when i see the see opening in two, or someone walking on the water.

LOL ! ( and i think you mean the 'sea'?).

sparty,
Bad comparison!!

I have the same reason to doubt MIM theory as Jebulum.
And it'll be always argued unless the WB's flat out tell us so!

So keep discussing it at your hearts avail.

so where is the bad comparison supa? because the whole movie is in reference to the bible.... the biggest is Neo as Jesus Christ but that is a whole different post...

my point is that the people that give these arguements that there is a MIM without actually believeing what they are preaching is bull****. What is the point in argueing for something you have no inclination in proving. They are argueing for a lost cause that cannot be proven.

here is another example.... your walking down the street and you find a banana peel in the middle of the road... so you pick it up and decide "holy s*it there is a banana peel here i guess a monkey got loose form the zoo and is running rampid in the streets."

yes maybe monkeys love bananas and there might even be a zoo in your vicinity..... but the deduction is illogical and has no way to back it up except for the fact that there is a banana peel in the road.

MY GOD!! YOU ALL (forgiven Sparty) MAKE ME UNEXPLICABLE SICK!! This isn't even a healthy discussion anymore! Sparty layed down numerous valid and thought out points and you guys go....."no that's stupid cause....I saw the movie this one time and it's not..." or "the directors just want you to believe that". Now the preceding is bull****. The Wachwoskis would give WAY more hints if it was a MIM. As of now, the only real reason you have to believe that it is a MIM is that neo can destroy the machines....but since Sparty just explained that, I'm in desperate need of another point from the MIM side.....yet none of you provide it. You think.....AHHH IT CAN'T BE PROVEN.

FOR THE LAST TIME....THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT SAYING IT CAN OR CANNOT BE PROVEN.....STOP TRYING TO GET AROUND IT AND LAY SOME VALID POINTS HERE!! All I'm in search of is a health discussion.....I'm sick of insinuations and poor support.

Jeb Jeb Jeb....I thought you were one to lay good points. You dissapoint me...

Good day.

well, the visions Neo have, the screens during the architect monitoring a possible death for trinity and the fact that Zion cannot reach 250 000 peeps within 100 years are enough facts for me to doubt about Zion it being real, i'm sorry to disapoint you because i don't agree with you.

you'll also hafto explain how 23 people can build an oxygen machine without having air to breathe.and why seraph glows yellow in the matrix.

Originally posted by Jebulum

you'll also hafto explain how 23 people can build an oxygen machine without having air to breathe.and why seraph glows yellow in the matrix.

ok the real world is earth so why the **** would 23 people need to build an oxygen machine? they are on earth and as all of us can tell because we are breathing (or i hope we are) that there is plenty of oxygen to go around.

as for seraph glowing yellow i am not certain but my theory is that that is how the programs are encrypted when they go into exile. everything that is under the control of the source is green so my guess is when a program faces deletion and they choose to go into exile their encryption is changed and they glow yellow.

this is your interpretation of it, but it doesn't make more sense then having a 2nd level of the matrix which would be yellow.When you create a 3D engine to support 256 shades of green, if you import a 3d object into it, it won't appear in yellow, unless you have a higher class to support several world shades.

And they are in the core of the earth, zion requires air machine to survive, it's stated in reloaded.

My point was, the matrix is a work of art, and any work of art is submitted to interpretation, so why should i believe you are correct and the pro MIM are wrong ? to take the example of the bible once again, it's just a matter of beliefs, some do think it's true (at least metaphorically) and some do not.

Of course it's bogus, but I ask you this how was the spoon brought to Neo if it only existed in the Matrix? Also in Reloaded you see that Neo can stop sentinals by holding up his hand. So it may not be that the Matrix is also Zion but that actually there is a tie between the Matrix and Zion. Maybe the only theory that works against your own is that Neo's powers of the one aren't suppose to extend beyond the Matrix and he used his powers for safe passage to the machine city when stopping the sentinal swarm so this raises the question "are the laws of the Zion equivalent to those of the Matrix in the case that some laws can be bent others can be broken?

That is the point.....the spoon is tattered and worn in the real world because the boy that was with the Oracle in the matrix was now in Zion and giving that spoon to Neo to have him keep his confidence. Contrary to what some might believe...it was NOT, I repeat NOT to symbolize that the real world is another matrix....it was to give Neo the feeling of confidence and control when he would complete his journey.

As for the color thing....that's absurd. Just because their different colors doesn't impy anything about MIM. It simply has to do with what Sparty said.

And no, they wouldn't need an oxygen machine. Just because the matrix was reloaded doesn't mean these 23 people would immediately return to Zion because they would die. They would stay where they could get oxygen and eventually make their way down to Zion when they had the abilities to create something that could sustain life. The machine was only required in the vast cave that is Zion....not on Earth in general. Now you guys are just getting too much into the what ifs.

Good day.

Originally posted by neo7272003
Maybe the only theory that works against your own is that Neo's powers of the one aren't suppose to extend beyond the Matrix

But this is exactly what the oricle spoke of... she said and i quote "the powers of the one extend far beyond the boundaries of the matrix into your world" (speaking to niobe or ghost depending on who you played as in the video game)

this is part of the path of the one.... but none of the other "ones" got this far in their journey... they all chose the door on the right. This is where the MIM theory hits its biggest road block... the whole Matrix trilogy is based on the idea that god gave humans the right to accept him or reject him when Adam and Eve were created.... just as the matrix is forced to do.....

Thats what the Matrix as a trilogy is, a metaphorical outlook on human nature and life.... god gave us the will to choose... this is ultimately the reason that the first 2 versions of the Matrix were such utter failures

If you rember from M2, in the architect speech, he spoke of there being 2 versions of the matrix before the one that is present in the movies.... the reason they were such failures is because they specimine (humans) did not have the CHOICE to accept the program or reject it.... this is why they failed..... god created humans in a way that they NEED the right of choice... even if it is a a sub-concias (sp) level.

If the whole idea that humans had no right to choose their destiny and live within a 2nd matrix, existed the whole idea that lays behind the films would be in-vein. The WB would have no use in intorducing an idea of a 2nd matrix and for people that came up with this whole idea need to take a look at what the movie symbolizes and where the priorities in its teaching lie.

Originally posted by sparty22687
so where is the bad comparison supa? because the whole movie is in reference to the bible.... the biggest is Neo as Jesus Christ but that is a whole different post...


Yes....it is a whole different post....... already out there so don't go starting a new one like you did here. And the whole movie is not in reference to the Bible....yes parts of it are! There's also other references if you didn't notice. Here's one to start you off:

http://www.matrixmania.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8848

Getting back on topic, here's another great post, and take a look at the newbie called El Uno's first and only post I guess:

http://www.matrixmania.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8587&perpage=25&pagenumber=3

Sparty....you started another thread that was not needed either had you looked at other posts. It's called "What's up with the Sentinel" or something similar. And that thread also went on to discuss MIAM issues. But the topic of your thread was already covered in another thread called "Uncertainites not explained by 1.0 and 2.0."

Not flaming you or anything, but ppl need to learn the search feature and add to what has already been started and not bury those discussions by starting another on the same topic!!

Supa......no duh that "What is with that sentinal" is similar.....since Sparty STARTED THAT POST!!! But that was about the Sentinal and it moved into being about the MIM theory. If you think this thread is wasteful then don't post here but some people are actually having a good time with it. In regards to Sparty's post....I must regretfully agree that the WHOLE movie wasn't based off the Bible....but many parts are. Sparty brought a very valid point with the whole "choice" topic. Plus...in a filmmaker's mind....this MIM would be utterly pointless as was said. You all say that the WBs wanted to leave things open ended so we could discuss. Yes, but this isn't one of them. This would be a complete contradiction to what they were working for if the MIM theory were true...therefore they wouldn't use it.

Good day.

the one,

Read my post again!!
I didn't say this thread is wasteful, rather repititive as most of the discussion here has already been discussed.

And did you take a look at the second link??
This person had a great point and actually backed it up with some solid evidence to go with it.

It's plausible the WBs changed the storyline based on another matrix from the feedback of audience screenings!!

im glad someone(Jebulum) understands what ive been trying to say
theone
i like how u know all of what the bros were trying to express
can u tel me everything else that is going on in thier heads?
anywaz, u cant say that im not on topic
there are not just 2 stances, its true or not, but also a third
neutral

I think that the idea of Matrix inside Matrix is very interesting but I also think that we don't need it to explain all Neo's abilites in the real world. I think that no one try to think about it like about a kind of communication. Machines must communicate. They do it using so called radio waves (Sentinels have antennas and dishes) I think. Maybe Neo has the ability to receive, decode and transmit using machines' language. I think that his mind and produced electromagnetic field are so strong that he is able to use them to disable machines. When he uses this ability (at the end of Reloaded) for the first time he says that something has changed and he can feel the machines. I think that is why he plugged in without hard connection. He didn't have the experience using this ability and that's why he plugged to the wrong place. Consider that in Revolutions he can see the objects from machines' city. Is it good and convincing explanation? I think that Neo is still alive (maybe dazed) his body flashes. Maybe Wachowski Brothers want to surprise us and make next Matrix. I have many unexplained facts. What about:
- Karl Popper known as Kid in Reloaded and Revolutions - he is the person who freed himself from Matrix
- the Orphan with the ability to bend objects
- what means the spoon that Kid gave Neo ?
- what with Merovingian, the Oracle, the Architect and others ?
- is there any other cause or menace (except of Agent Smith) for machines to agree for Neo's proposition?