Hey,
this is a post about something that is really bothering me. We discussed this today in german lesson at school qnd as you probably know - I'm german.
I know, that the national socialism isn't very long ago and that we should definitely keep remembering about the crimes that we've done against the jewish community and foreigners e.t.c. This will always remain a tender spot in our hearts and in the history of Germany and something, which can never be apologized. However, I'm talking about the deliberate use of the term "hate of foreigners", which is brazenly exploited by some fellow men.
One example: Some weeks ago, me and my friends were sitting in the train and there were also some sinti and roma (gipsy), who spat on some people and tried to steal thing from the other people without any reason. Then, the driver and some other people came and the driver said: "You ought to be ashamed of yourself..." and the only they answered was: "You are all just xenophobic" But the driver was turkish and as they realized that, they said to him: "Why do you care? The germans can clean up the train later."
Sorry, but this really pisses me off... and that is not the only example.
we were in England one time with my class and people there directly asked us if we would like Hitler. What the hell do they expect us to answer?????? That we're still wearing uniforms and say "Heil Hitler"????? Come on....
ok, enough said. What do you think? many people in germany still look up to him. I'm glad you obviously don't. I think that the gipsies were wrong. We have people like that in the united states too. Except the issue is past slavery. What pricks... I can't beleive they said that to you... Just because one guy 80 years ago was racist, doesn't mean present day Germans are... I hate people like that... I hope he falls down and breaks his ankle bone for apporximately 8 days and 4 hours...
Thanks...
Drake smith_Fan, i hate racsim of any sorts. i live in australia and while the german and hilter scence isnt as bad as that (at least i havent experinced it to that degree)
we cannot black out the past and everything has a reason, some people just have to express themselves to what ever the want to percived by others... its a shame though It's understandable, in a way, growing up with all the hate and misunderstanding. The problem usually lies in not enough exposure to other races; smith_fan. Most of us chinese in my country hated the Japanese when we were young because they conquered us once, but frequent dealings with them as well as a large migratory population evened things out eventually. It all takes understanding...I'm sure many Germans would also be sore about any visiting Americans, like how the French refuse to speak english in their home country. Smith_fan, you must understand that many english lost sons/daughters/brothers/sisters/parents/grandparents in the war, so therefore feel sour towards the germans. Not all english feel like this, but many do. i for one, am disgusted that they asked you this Don't say "We", because you can NOT help it.
I know you mean German people, but it was Hitler's fault.
And i see no reason why people would say those things to you, because it's not your fault.
Don't feel guilty, what happened happened. Forget what happened.
You can cry and hate, but it also won't help you, you can better be happy.
Good Luck.
:) What Kind of Imature D**k weeds whould say something like that.... Well they did so that just proves what i said. Personaly i can't stand racism or bullying,(Which i get all the time for no reason) or any form of Prejudism and Discrimination. It makes me want to Break every bone in there body. Originally posted by Terikan
many people in germany still look up to him.
hmm...then you obviously don't know many germans....:o
I know you mean German people, but it was Hitler's fault.
Well, unfortunately it wasn't only his fault. Of course, he was the leader but the most people at that time of 1932 - 1945 followed him.
@TheOneIsGone
I can fully understand that but if you hear something like "I was in Croatia and they asked me if I would be a Nazi...." - it is just enough! Apparently, they didn't even know that they supported Hitler's troops. They forgot that but asked us something like that. I mean, both are younger generations that didn't even live at that time. the iraq people hated thier own government, yet there children will end up hating the americans because of the death.
our world has made mistakes in which no-one can comprehend to the fullest unless they survived it personally.
and going a bit off-topic here, does anyone else relize that all female singers these day when they start to get less and less popular, tend to pose nude in magazines? then cry about it later.
countries need to get there piorities (sp?) straight. Smith_fan
do u really feel guilty and sad for the jewish who have been killed in this war??!!
well, let's pretend that u r really sorry for them
are u sorry about the palastinians??!!!
are u sorry for Iraq??!!
yeah, i know what hetlr did was wrong, but jewish don't deserve do be sorry for them, and i mean jewish that agree on what's happening, there's some jewish that left there country cauze they refuse what there governoment do, those people i respect very much
and with all do respect for any jewish here, i don't feel sorry for those who died accepting what their governoment do
and....Palestine and Iraq, there blood isn't cheap as SOME people could think Originally posted by FIDODIDO
Smith_fan
do u really feel guilty and sad for the jewish who have been killed in this war??!!
well, let's pretend that u r really sorry for them
are u sorry about the palastinians??!!!
are u sorry for Iraq??!!
yeah, i know what hetlr did was wrong, but jewish don't deserve do be sorry for them, and i man jewish that agree on what's happening, there's some jewish that left there country cauze they refuse what there governoment do, those people i respect very much
and with all do respect for any jewish here, i don't feel sorry for those who died accepting what their governoment do
and....Palestine and Iraq, there blood isn't cheap as SOME people could think I think youre right....but do something with your vocab. ;) sorry man
my mother toungue isnot English Originally posted by FIDODIDO
sorry man
my mother toungue isnot English Lol, that's allright.
If youre not English, it was my fault ;) loooooooooooooooool
it seems like i don't focus on what i'm doing
when i was writing TONGUE someone talked to me and when i wrote it.....it was terrible
:p Originally posted by FIDODIDO
loooooooooooooooool
it seems like i don't focus on what i'm doing
when i was writing TONGUE someone talked to me and when i wrote it.....it was terrible
:p :D
I didn't understand it too. well, here in holland the attitude toward the German people or nation is very disturbing. One of these reasons are, as you said, Hitler. But the other one is the fact that germany is not very strict on following the rules made by the European Union, while we are here in holland getting major cuts trhoughout the economy.
I don't blame you for this or any german for that matter. I just don't understand why we can't get a long and be nice to each other.
Now my wise words for the day:
"A revolution always ends into dictatorship". Originally posted by HomoUniversalis
well, here in holland the attitude toward the German people or nation is very disturbing. One of these reasons are, as you said, Hitler. But the other one is the fact that germany is not very strict on following the rules made by the European Union, while we are here in holland getting major cuts trhoughout the economy.
I don't blame you for this or any german for that matter. I just don't understand why we can't get a long and be nice to each other.
Now my wise words for the day:
"A revolution always ends into dictatorship".
yeah I know. It's the same here towards holland... (but this mainly because of soccer:p) I've heard of the reaction of your people in reference to the decision of the EU... I can understand both sides there. The reaction of "smaller" countries and the main reaction in France and here... I think it's unfair against those countries but you have to see our side of this. Economy here is at its low and if we would have to pay even more to the EU... I don't know what the situation then would be here... If you know what I mean. Personally, I haven't really looked into it. I have just seen a lot of one-sided media, and haven't heared any story telling the german side. It's getting more America here every day.
All I have heard (not an insult to you, more to the Dutch media) is that we, the dutch people, are paying and paying and that the German and the French are openly screwing us by not following the rules of the EU. Again, this is what I am hearing...
The EU is not excactly helping establish a bond between the countries, now is it? Something I regret, even more than the coming of the Euro... Originally posted by HomoUniversalis
Personally, I haven't really looked into it. I have just seen a lot of one-sided media, and haven't heared any story telling the german side. It's getting more America here every day.
All I have heard (not an insult to you, more to the Dutch media) is that we, the dutch people, are paying and paying and that the German and the French are openly screwing us by not following the rules of the EU. Again, this is what I am hearing...
The EU is not excactly helping establish a bond between the countries, now is it? Something I regret, even more than the coming of the Euro...
that really reminds me of what someone on matrixhardline said, that it's mostly because of the media... That would be right in this case.... do not believe the media always, here are so many ecomical problems (in France too) that it would hurt us even more if the EU would have sconced us... the EU is the most thing Europe made from a long time that makes sense
the euro is now very good....and i see a good future IF all countries do what they should do
and about the small countries....i don't know why some countries give money to the small countries if it's gonna effect there economy....and in the same time they r not forced to do so....r they??!!!
besides....be sure that the countries that do this don't make it just because they love them....sure there's a long time plan....or atleast to guarantee the small country loyalty when i c the words " jewish " or " israel " i just remember musscers , blood , insain leadrs like 2 watch the arabs without them heads , i see rivers of blood , and all this blood is from my arabic brothers , from palestine , lebanon , syria and ofcourse my country , Egypt ...........
when i hear " israel " i just remember our land " palestine " , i remember how the jewish take it by force and blood from the palestenians ........
all i wanna say is , i dont feel any sorry 4 the jewish of israel and all jewish around the world who didnt refuse it , coz i remember all that above and then i say " why i feel sorry 4 those who killed and still killing my arabian brothers ? "
smith _fan : dont feel sorry and try 2 read some of the jewish history , read the real history plz , and u will find that there is nothing called " HOLOCOST " , holocost was a big lie 2 make some money from germany and all the nazi countries around it .........
i apologize 4 all the honest jewish here , not the isrealians ofcourse , but all the jewish that refuse something called " israel " , i mean them by my words , i mean every jewish or not even jewish who agree with that thing who called " israel " .......... Originally posted by Neo Of Matrix
smith _fan : dont feel sorry and try 2 read some of the jewish history , read the real history plz , and u will find that there is nothing called " HOLOCOST " , holocost was a big lie 2 make some money from germany and all the nazi countries around it .........
there WAS a holocaust! That's not a lie.... btw, I definitely DO NOT agree with you about Israel and jews... Originally posted by smith_fan
there WAS a holocaust! That's not a lie.... btw, I definitely DO NOT agree with you about Israel and jews...
u r free 2 agree with me or not , but its true any way ...... we have the same problem of racism and prejudice in austrlia against native aboriginies and against boat people. it $hits me so much. alot of people in australia hate on aboriginies becasue they think they are good for nothing drunks who are a burden on society. but no one seems to realaise that white people pushed them into that oppression be taking their land and making them inferior to us. this is an ongoing issue in australia.
and boat people! no doubt most of you have heard about how austrlaia treats people who come to australia on baosts to escape the countries that they live in. they come here for freedom, but instead, we throw EVERYONE (thats right, men, women, and children) into detention centres for YEARS ON END while they are 'processed'. escaping to freedom? pigs ar$e. phillip ruddock (the guy in charge of detaining refugees), i really do detest you. Originally posted by Terikan
many people in germany still look up to him.
o_O right.....
@Smith_fan: Thats nothing, I get to hear stuff like that all day long...
The top 3 questions are:
1. Do you pray to Hitler?
2. So, how was the War?
3. You should be ashamed for what you've done!
Come on guys, seriously....
The War is over 60 years by now... may be the war is over 60 years
but....
many is still suffering the effects of it
every time i go to "el allamin" (a region in matroh)....and i see the tombs of our soldiers
i see the museum.....the war eqipments that egyptians wee killed by
and...there is also a region that is full of mines....and ofcourse we can't use it.....if we want to remove these mines....every mine will cost us more than it's real cost SIX times....and try to know how mine is planted there.....it'll cost us millions
moreover.....Egypt shouldn't enter this war....cauze it wasn't a part of it from the real begining.....and there is no egyptian presence in it's reason
this is for Egypt.......only
don't u remember vietnam??!!
or Ohama beach??!!
there's movies that is still being produced till now about these wars
this is only a small part of the truth
and after all this....Isreal takes the chance...and Belfore promise showed
do u know what we call....promise of who doesn't own....to who doesn't deserve
and till now...Isreal considers Egypt the big enemy.....don't believe the lies that is told to most of us.....those imaginary information and history.....more than 3\4 of it is not true Originally posted by Sephiroth
o_O right.....
@Smith_fan: Thats nothing, I get to hear stuff like that all day long...
The top 3 questions are:
1. Do you pray to Hitler?
2. So, how was the War?
3. You should be ashamed for what you've done!
Come on guys, seriously....
The War is over 60 years by now...
oh yeah...that are those questions I heard when I was in London...
and then of course.... "Do you have pizza in Germany?" :D:D
@ FIDODIDO:
don't believe the lies that is told to most of us.....those imaginary information and history.....more than 3\4 of it is not true
I don't believe in anything that I hear from this Israel War/conflict. I'm really not so deep in it, I don't know much and that's why I do not have a real for/against opinion about it. But I don't like insulting Israelians like someone did before. in Germany we dont even learn about WW2 until 12 grade and then they say "yeah and there was WW2, we should all be ashamed of ourselfs for doing that blablabla"
So instead of teaching us stuff they tell us how bad we should feel >_> Originally posted by Sephiroth
in Germany we dont even learn about WW2 until 12 grade and then they say "yeah and there was WW2, we should all be ashamed of ourselfs for doing that blablabla"
So instead of teaching us stuff they tell us how bad we should feel >_>
yep. I totally agree. Even 10 year old people do that though they rarely know anything about the actual war... Damn, how can people be SO dumb???? :( to all Germans here
do u really feel guilty??
r u sorry for what happened??
just a question Originally posted by FIDODIDO
to all Germans here
do u really feel guilty??
r u sorry for what happened??
just a question
well it depends. I feel sorry for what my grandfather and my country has done 60 years AGO. But I don't say "I'm sorry" because I wasn't there at that time. Why do you ask that?
Even our chancellor still has to say "I'm sorry" to other people for that. We're still paying so much money to people, organisations e.t.c because of that what happened 60 years ago... asking just to know if Germans feel sorry or guilty??
cauze i think....if they feel so.....they (((maybe))) stand beside Isreal and help them if they need help
and here i'm not talking about governoments
cauze most of the time governoments doesn't do what their ppl wanna do Originally posted by FIDODIDO
asking just to know if Germans feel sorry or guilty??
cauze i think....if they feel so.....they (((maybe))) stand beside Isreal and help them if they need help
and here i'm not talking about governoments
cauze most of the time governoments doesn't do what their ppl wanna do
no no... political decisions in case of Israel/Palestine conflict have NOTHING to do with the second world war! that are two different things. Our government is only interested in peace between Israel and the other countries, they would never help them in a war because most of the people here are against going to any war, where we aren't affected (except of course the Nato Missions e.g. Afghanistan...) back to a matter that i've saved to the end
the NATO
u said that Germany helps NATO in it's operations
well, did u mention all of the operations??!!
what do u think about NATO operations??
do u agree with it??!! Originally posted by FIDODIDO
back to a matter that i've saved to the end
the NATO
u said that Germany helps NATO in it's operations
well, did u mention all of the operations??!!
what do u think about NATO operations??
do u agree with it??!!
I agree with most of NATO decision's but definitely not in their USA or Iraq politics. After all, I was against the Iraq war. People are weird.....
Just because you are German you don't have to feel sorry for what happened, because you still can't help what happened.
Can't people just forget what happened?
If they can't, they should not associate you with it... HELLOOO WW2 is anchient history we should look at the problems of today not that of when who did what wrong theres a nxt generation now and for all i know (ive worked with germans in renesse) thats in holland and they seemed great ppl and they know how to party as i went to a cafe with some germans.
and they are all gegen nazi atleast i didn't met any german skinheads or neo nazi's as ppl call them
cheers Originally posted by Neo Xavier
HELLOOO WW2 is anchient history we should look at the problems of today not that of when who did what wrong theres a nxt generation now and for all i know (ive worked with germans in renesse) thats in holland and they seemed great ppl and they know how to party as i went to a cafe with some germans
You are from Holland too?
Like i was trying to tell, German people are great people, also really party animals :D Knocker
nation without history....is without future
and sometimes u have to look behind to see where is ur foot now...and to know will u proceed....or go to the right way if u r not on it
and beore anyone deal with u..he'll look to ur past....were u good??
u sometimes decide that u won't deal with that person
cauze he did something wrong
don't u sometimes look to the past??!! Originally posted by The Knocker
You are from Holland too?
Like i was trying to tell, German people are great people, also really party animals :D
yeah i am and they are real party animals they know what a good beers made like and your dutch so.
BIERTJUUUHHH???
or in english BEEEEEEEEEEEEEER Originally posted by Neo Xavier
yeah i am and they are real party animals they know what a good beers made like and your dutch so.
BIERTJUUUHHH???
or in english BEEEEEEEEEEEEEER
Yep, je bent een echte Hollander :p
Beer and Ween's, really party animals, what do you want more??? :p Originally posted by FIDODIDO
Knocker
nation without history....is without future
and sometimes u have to look behind to see where is ur foot now...and to know will u proceed....or go to the right way if u r not on it
and beore anyone deal with u..he'll look to ur past....were u good??
u sometimes decide that u won't deal with that person
cauze he did something wrong
don't u sometimes look to the past??!!
What TK tried to say was that if ppl can't deal with history they shouldn't try to because they will get crazy by that..
Isn't that right TK Originally posted by Neo Xavier
What TK tried to say was that if ppl can't deal with history they shouldn't try to because they will get crazy by that..
Isn't that right TK Yeah...that's what i ment ;)
Btw, i'll also add you in my friends list :) Originally posted by Neo Xavier
HELLOOO WW2 is anchient history we should look at the problems of today not that of when who did what wrong theres a nxt generation now and for all i know (ive worked with germans in renesse) thats in holland and they seemed great ppl and they know how to party as i went to a cafe with some germans.
and they are all gegen nazi atleast i didn't met any german skinheads or neo nazi's as ppl call them
cheers
yeah we should really concentrate in the problems of today... btw - I know some people from Tilburg and they're party animals too :D Originally posted by Smith_fan
One example: Some weeks ago, me and my friends were sitting in the train and there were also some sinti and roma (gipsy), who spat on some people and tried to steal thing from the other people without any reason. Then, the driver and some other people came and the driver said: "You ought to be ashamed of yourself..." and the only they answered was: "You are all just xenophobic" But the driver was turkish and as they realized that, they said to him: "Why do you care? The germans can clean up the train later."
Sorry, but this really pisses me off... and that is not the only example.
we were in England one time with my class and people there directly asked us if we would like Hitler. What the hell do they expect us to answer?????? That we're still wearing uniforms and say "Heil Hitler"????? Come on....
I don't understand how people can act so stupidly. We can't forgot Holocaust, but that was unfair. You know...in here Finland, about week or two ago...was questioning about that do we have to shame ourselves because we were companion in arms with Germany in World War two.
Oh come one! I don't shame it. Not at all. Holocaust was wrong, but without Germany I would maybe speak Russian right now.
We can't blame all germans about something what happened a long time ago. We should concentrate problems what we have now. Originally posted by Smithy_baby
I don't understand how people can act so stupidly. We can't forgot Holocaust, but that was unfair. You know...in here Finland, about week or two ago...was questioning about that do we have to shame ourselves because we were companion in arms with Germany in World War two.
Oh come one! I don't shame it. Not at all. Holocaust was wrong, but without Germany I would maybe speak Russian right now.
We can't blame all germans about something what happened a long time ago. We should concentrate problems what we have now.
exactly. And you forgot to mention that IT WASN'T YOU who helped the Nazi's... People should look more into the future than back to that what happened. Of course We must not forget what happened in the past but you have to make a differene between that time and now... Originally posted by smith_fan
exactly. And you forgot to mention that IT WASN'T YOU who helped the Nazi's... People should look more into the future than back to that what happened. Of course We must not forget what happened in the past but you have to make a differene between that time and now...
You can't be more right about that. BTW I personally think that questioning was stupid. Right after that here came some tv-programs about the subject. Interviews or something like that. I was confused. Why the hell they have to discuss about that right now when in the same time here is problems which affect the people now?
I have always been interested about World War two and I usually prefer to watch documents about it, but this is something I can't understand. There actually comes the question: Who is the real racist hear? I mean comming to me and asking: "Theres a Jewish kid in scholl, do you want to kill him?"
When will it ever end <_< Originally posted by Sephiroth
There actually comes the question: Who is the real racist hear? I mean comming to me and asking: "Theres a Jewish kid in scholl, do you want to kill him?"
When will it ever end <_<
that says all... try to ignore it. That's the best way... they won't understand anyway.. I'm an Israeli Jew, and although I think it's very important to remember the holocaust and keep teaching about it I also understand that it's wrong to blame today's Germans for something that they didn't do.
FIDODIDO, I didn't really want to discuss with you but I decided you deserve to hear the other side. We can try and have a discussion here but not if you keep offending me.
Now, maybe you're sour because one of your loved ones got hurt by Israel, and maybe it's because of what you've generally heard about Israel. If it's the former, all I can say is I'm sorry, sad things happen in wars which is why it's so urgent for this thing to end, but if it's the latter, I can tell you that I know for a fact Egypt intentionally lies to its citizens. There's a lot of false propoganda going around the middle-east and you can't believe everything you hear. I don't even know if I can believe the international news. Nowadays hardly anyone's objective. Everyone's biased one way or another, and I'd wait till I actually see the facts before I jump to conclusions.
I'm not here to teach anyone anything, I hardly know about the situation either, all I know is what my father tells me about the army (and I find no reason to believe him), and that was it has an extremely tough moral code, sometimes too tough for his liking. He says a lot of the times it seems that the army is more willing to sacrifice its soldiers' lives than wound Palestinian civilians. Now as I said, I don't know if this is true yet, but you don't and you probably never will. In two years I'll be serving in the army and then I'll be able to see for myself whether this is true or not (although hopefully it comes down a lot by then).
Even if the government was doing something wrong, that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with being an Israeli. This is a democratic country, if we don't like what's going on here we don't just pack and leave, we get up and try and put a stop to it.
Saying that the Germans shouldn't be sorry for killing the Jews is stupid and offensive. The holocaust is the most henious crime that has ever been commited and there's nothing in the world that could have justified it.
Don't ignore me. Now you have a chance to hear the other side. If what you're saying isn't just baseless racism explain to me how you come to your conclusions. Originally posted by FIDODIDO
Smith_fan
do u really feel guilty and sad for the jewish who have been killed in this war??!!
well, let's pretend that u r really sorry for them
are u sorry about the palastinians??!!!
are u sorry for Iraq??!!
yeah, i know what hetlr did was wrong, but jewish don't deserve do be sorry for them, and i mean jewish that agree on what's happening, there's some jewish that left there country cauze they refuse what there governoment do, those people i respect very much
and with all do respect for any jewish here, i don't feel sorry for those who died accepting what their governoment do
and....Palestine and Iraq, there blood isn't cheap as SOME people could think
I'm sorry to put this way and use this language but f*ck you! You don't have any idea about what's happening in Israel today seeing as you don't live there and have to live in terror almost everyday. I personally, aren't really afraid but many people are. I know alot of people might not agree with me but this whole conflict didn't start because of the jews. I mean, do you see jews blowing themselves up and killing inoccent people just because they're not jewish?! And you might think that we're so bad to the palastinians but I don't think you realize how much their terrorists affect this country. Originally posted by I am the two
I'm sorry to put this way and use this language but f*ck you! You don't have any idea about what's happening in Israel today seeing as you don't live there and have to live in terror almost everyday. I personally, aren't really afraid but many people are. I know alot of people might not agree with me but this whole conflict didn't start because of the jews. I mean, do you see jews blowing themselves up and killing inoccent people just because they're not jewish?! And you might think that we're so bad to the palastinians but I don't think you realize how much their terrorists affect this country.
this is not ur country , do u realy think that palestine is ur country , if u , let me tell u this and im sorry 4 it , realy f*ck u !!!
u and ur people take palestine from us , everyday we hear about those who get killed coz of ur fu**ing army diffence , and u tell us that the people who deffened ther mother land is terrisots ? soon folks i will bring u some sites about the army of diffence of israel and what they doing with the CIVILIANS , and u will c with ur own eyes what they donig with them , damn about the holocaust , its a big lie , created by the jews 2 make the eurbian pay 4 them and feel guilty , as we can c now .......
IM THE TOW , let me tell u something , in Egypt we used 2 live with jews in the old days , and we were a big family , so we dont hate all the jews , but u did take our land , and killing our people everyday , and we diffened 4 our soules u called us terrorists , faith it seems ..........
GET THE HILL OUT OF PLAESTINE AND WE WILL BE FRIENDS , AS LONG AS U LIVE IN OUR LAND WE WILL FIGHT U TILL VICTORYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY .......... Originally posted by Neo Of Matrix
this is not ur country , do u realy think that palestine is ur country , if u , let me tell u this and im sorry 4 it , realy f*ck u !!!
u and ur people take palestine from us , everyday we hear about those who get killed coz of ur fu**ing army diffence , and u tell us that the people who deffened ther mother land is terrisots ? soon folks i will bring u some sites about the army of diffence of israel and what they doing with the CIVILIANS , and u will c with ur own eyes what they donig with them , damn about the holocaust , its a big lie , created by the jews 2 make the eurbian pay 4 them and feel guilty , as we can c now .......
IM THE TOW , let me tell u something , in Egypt we used 2 live with jews in the old days , and we were a big family , so we dont hate all the jews , but u did take our land , and killing our people everyday , and we diffened 4 our soules u called us terrorists , faith it seems ..........
GET THE HILL OUT OF PLAESTINE AND WE WILL BE FRIENDS , AS LONG AS U LIVE IN OUR LAND WE WILL FIGHT U TILL VICTORYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY ..........
Listen, I don't wan t to start a fight with you cuz then the mods will shut down this thread and that would be unfair to smith_fan. I didn't say the whole palastinian nation are terrorists, what I meant was the suicide bombers who think their purpose in this world is to destroy the jews and themselves. And the holocaust is not a lie, I think you're one of the only people in the world who still thinks that. And I'm not gonna start fighting about who Israel belongs to, everyone has their own beliefs. But the fact remains that I live there because it's my country. Listen, I don't wan t to start a fight with you cuz then the mods will shut down this thread and that would be unfair to smith_fan.
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u cant fight with me , u can fight with someone that u sure he is fault , but in my case , even u , may be think in sometimes that im right , coz i have a case fighting 4 it , but u just have a house in my land and think how u can have more ??
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didn't say the whole palastinian nation are terrorists, what I meant was the suicide bombers who think their purpose in this world is to destroy the jews and themselves. And the holocaust is not a lie, I think you're one of the only people in the world who still thinks that.
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those who u talking about is sacerfice them soules 4 palestine , our land , they just want freedom , want 2 have them own life , want u 2 get out of them land , if u take the place of them u will give ur life and whatever u have 2 live in ur land with freedom , just think about it , i did take ur house , and im start killing ur family , what will u do then , u will scaerfice ur life just 2 save them and make me get out of ur house .....
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And the holocaust is not a lie, I think you're one of the only people in the world who still thinks that.
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plz read more 4 Roget garodi and u will know if the holocaust is a big lie or not , and free ur mind from and israelian propagnda ...
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And I'm not gonna start fighting about who Israel belongs to, everyone has their own beliefs. But the fact remains that I live there because it's my country.
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ofcourse everyone has his own beliefs , but we have history , and only history can tell us who has the right and who take something not belong 2 him , and plz , try 2 read more , it seems 2 me that u just listen and belive , just read more and specialy in history and Garodi .... do you really think the Holocaust was a big lie??????? I mean, come on we all know it's true but probably you just don't want to accept it... :o
I should know it because I live in Germany and I have for example last year seen the concentration camps in Auschwitz... and that was a horrible trip for me!
I can't understand why you really think it was a lie. I mean, you're lying to yourself and I'm sure most people know it better...
and please don't come with the argument that I am german and have to agree with all jews because I feel guilty... :o the jews tell us that 6 million of them has died in the holocaust , and all the jews in the world in this time was almost 11 million , can u just tell me how u could collect more than half of them in one place and just kill them ???
simply , german did kill jews and made musscers againest them , history tell us that , but , ofcourse not a 6 million of them , and soon i will get 2 all of u a numbers that proove my words , and i'll bring u the real numbers of the vicitims , and i'll bring u the numbers of the palestinian victims and the musscer againest them too ....
and here is something can help u in first , israel's leader Ariel sharon had killed 20.000 civilians palestinians in lebanon in the year 1982 , it called SABRA AND SHTILA'S MUSSCER !!!
coming soon folks .... Hi everybody
Glad to join your discussion in here, yet I dislaike to start my posting in the forum with politic talks.
Starting with the Nazi thing, Nazism was an ideology featured with racism and expansionism welcomed by some Germans, and lead the world to a very bloody massacres against innocent people.
As we condemn Nazism, we must stick to Nazi and who followed their ideology, but we can't condemn the German people as awhole.
Germans suffered from Hitler and his party just as the rest of Europeans.
In the same way, you can't blame Italians "as general" for their leader fascism.
You can't blame British people for their leader's imperialism.
And you can't blame Americans for the war crimes that were done by thier different administrations.
Second point, about the Holocaust thing, yes their was a Holocaust in Europe, Jews suffered alot in it, but they were not the only sufferers.
Gypsies, Bohemians, Russians, Poles, Frenchs, Scandinavians, Austrians, Greeks and Yugoslavians were all suffered the Nazi Holocaust just as the Jews, or may be a little more!
Beside this, Jews were victams of their own people...the Zionists!
800 Eastern European Jews were sent to the Nazi gas chambers with the full knowledge "and full ignorance in the same time" of the Zionists, who wanted to take an advantage of such massacre to strengeth their political agenda, which was built on scaring the European Jews and start transfering them to the holy land of Palestine.
Beside this, millions of poor European Jews could have been saved if Zionists moved to rescue them from European territory under Nazi control, next is an important article discussing this case written by Jew:
http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/minhametzardomb.htm
Another article clearing this point by discussing the please to rescue Jews in the Holocaust, which was totally IGNORED by Zionists for the same reason:
http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/pleasignored.html
Ben-Gurion the Zionist leader himself said in 1938, shortly after the British government announced that it would accept 10,000 Jewish children from Germany and Austria: "Were I to know that all German Jewish children could be rescued by transferring them to England and only half by transfer to Palestine, I would opt for the latter, because our concern is not only the personal interest of these children, but the historic interest of the Jewish people."
So as we all see, massacres against Jews were done with the help of the Zionists, who became the Israeli leaders after sometime.
Right now, and in the very moment Europeans and world "in general" are repeating the same mistake again!
They ignore the current Holocaust against Palestinians.
Why should we turn our eyes blind to the massacres against Palestinians done by the Nazis of Israel?
Should we move only after the number of vicitms reached millions as done before in Europe?
Should we move only after England and France are in danger of Israeli occupation?
Israel right now is occupying Arabic lands in Syria, Palestine and Lebanon, just as Nazi Germany did before to poor Poland.
Israel built walls around Palestinians, and keepin' them in concentartion camps, just as Nazis did to Jews in Europe in Ghetto.
Nazis came up with "Aryan superiority", Zionists came up with same trash about Semites and God's favoured nation!
Thanks God, Jews of world declear it clearly and loudly, "We Are Against Israel" and "Judaism is not Zionism".
To read more about Jews fighting the state of terrorism "IsraHell" please visit next link "enjoy viewing the pictures!":
www.netureikarta.org
Thanks for reading. Originally posted by Lieutenant_Ryan
Hi everybody
Glad to join your discussion in here, yet I dislaike to start my posting in the forum with politic talks.
Starting with the Nazi thing, Nazism was an ideology featured with racism and expansionism welcomed by some Germans, and lead the world to a very bloody massacres against innocent people.
As we condemn Nazism, we must stick to Nazi and who followed their ideology, but we can't condemn the German people as awhole.
Germans suffered from Hitler and his party just as the rest of Europeans.
In the same way, you can't blame Italians "as general" for their leader fascism.
You can't blame British people for their leader's imperialism.
And you can't blame Americans for the war crimes that were done by thier different administrations.
Second point, about the Holocaust thing, yes their was a Holocaust in Europe, Jews suffered alot in it, but they were not the only sufferers.
Gypsies, Bohemians, Russians, Poles, Frenchs, Scandinavian, Austrians, Greeks and Yugoslavians were all suffered the Nazi Holocaust just as the Jews, or may be a little more!
Beside this, Jews were victams of their own people...the Zionists!
800 Eastern European Jews were sent to the Nazi gas champers with the full knowladge "and full ignorance in the same time" of the Zionists, who wanted to take an advantage of such massacre to strengeth their political agenda, which was built on scaring the European Jews and start transfering them to the holy land of Palestine.
Beside this, millions of poor European Jews could have been saved if Zionists moved to rescue them from European territory under Nazi control, next is an important article discussing this case writin by Jew:
http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/minhametzardomb.htm
Another article clearing this point by discussing the please to rescue Jews in the Holocaust, which was totally IGNORD by Zionists for the same reason:
http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/pleasignored.html
Ben-Gurion the Zionist leader himself said in 1938, shortly after the British government announced that it would accept 10,000 Jewish children from Germany and Austria: "Were I to know that all German Jewish children could be rescued by transferring them to England and only half by transfer to Palestine, I would opt for the latter, because our concern is not only the personal interest of these children, but the historic interest of the Jewish people."
So as we all see, massacres against Jews was done with the help of the Zionists, who became the Israeli leaders after sometime.
Right now, and in the very moment Europeans and world "in general" are repeating the same mistake again!
They ignore the current Holocaust against Palestinians.
Why should we turn our eyes blind to the massacres against Palestinians done by the Nazis of Israel?
Should we move only after the number of vicitms reached millions as done before in Europe?
Should we move only after England and France are in danger of Israeli occupation?
Israel right now is occupying Arabic lands in Syria, Palestine and Lebanon, just as Nazi Germany did before to poor Poland.
Israel built walls around Palestinians, and keepin' them in concentartion camps, just as Nazis did to Jews in Europe in Ghetto.
Nazis came up with "Aryan superiority", Zionists came up with same trash about Semites and God's favoured nation!
Thanks God, Jews of world declear it clearly and loudly, "We Are Against Israel" and "Judaism is not Zionism".
To read more about Jews fighting the state of terrorism "IsraHell" please visit next link "enjoy viewing the pictures!":
www.netureikarta.org
Thanks for reading.
Wow man, that was the most amazing 1st post Ive ever seen and you really cleared stuff up here :) Originally posted by Lieutenant_Ryan
Right now, and in the very moment Europeans and world "in general" are repeating the same mistake again!
They ignore the current Holocaust against Palestinians.
Why should we turn our eyes blind to the massacres against Palestinians done by the Nazis of Israel?
Should we move only after the number of vicitms reached millions as done before in Europe?
Should we move only after England and France are in danger of Israeli occupation?
Israel right now is occupying Arabic lands in Syria, Palestine and Lebanon, just as Nazi Germany did before to poor Poland.
Israel built walls around Palestinians, and keepin' them in concentartion camps, just as Nazis did to Jews in Europe in Ghetto.
Nazis came up with "Aryan superiority", Zionists came up with same trash about Semites and God's favoured nation!
Thanks God, Jews of world declear it clearly and loudly, "We Are Against Israel" and "Judaism is not Zionism".
To read more about Jews fighting the state of terrorism "IsraHell" please visit next link "enjoy viewing the pictures!":
www.netureikarta.org
Thanks for reading.
What do you mean Israel is occupying land in 'palestine'? Palestine is Israel it belongs to the jewish people. And the only reason the Israelis are bulding a fence around the westbank and the gaza strip is because they don't want to be attacked by suicide bombers who come from those areas.
Another thing, the westbank is not a concentration camp. The Israelis don't starve, torture, burn, murder, or try experiments on people there like the Nazis used to to people. And I've already told you why they're bulding the fence. Tell me, how many Israelis do you see going up to innocent palestinians and blowing themselves up? The fact is that jewish citizens don't do that. And do you see Iraelis dancing in the street everytime they hear that a palestinian was killed? I've seen many "innocent" palestinians doing that. sorry for being late
i am the two, i won't reply on ur words to me, do u know why, cauze i expected that someone will do this, and i really have pitty on u, cauze u r still dreaming, still believe that u really own Palastine, u r totally blinded with what what the big murderer say, ofcourse we all know who i mean by the big murderer, also u know, pitty, i have nothing for u but this
don't u know what is happening, there is already jews getting out of isreal, cauze they regret on what's happening, tell me something, do u really believe in what's called "halacaust"
loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool
don't u man watch the big murdere saaying "we want peace....we follow the halacaust", and when the camera is off he gives orders to the apachys to kill and kill more Palastinians, and draws a campagin to enter Palastinian lands, sometimes i think that he drinks hundreds of gallons of blood everyday
the land that u say it's ur land, give me one proof that it's ur land, is it ur land cauze u just took it with the jungle rule that says "who has power live", huh??....is that ur rule in life, if YES then it's right what we call u here, think what we call u!!
do u sleep everyday and u feel that u sleep peacefully, do u guarantee that ur home won't be attacked in any second, don't u waalk in the street and u r afraid that a Palastinian comes out of nowhere and blows u, i bet u r, tell me, how can what u call ur land be really ur land if u don't feel safe in it, yeas u r behind F-16 and F-22 and tanks and soldiers, but u still feel unsafe, does home means that u feel unsafe??!!, well i know that u feel unsafe, and u'll feel it anywhere at any time, cauze actually u don't have home, u don't have country, u just took other land to call it ur country, but infact u have no country, can u tell my what was ur land before u take Palastine, NOWHERE
do u really feel that ur soldiers r brave, just because they defend u, oh man, u should have seen them in 1973, i won't talk about this war....cauze i pitty on u from the truth that u don't know, the battles that were in that war, that u didn't even heard about, just a small hint on that war, the battles in it was the most hard battles from the world war 2, if u want more information about it i can say, but first be sure that u won't suicide
ur soldiers kill Palastines from behind tanks and walls, kills them from high like apachy or from behind an iron thing, do u know why, cauze they r afraid of stones, stones man....they have all this weapons and afraid of stones, really brave
what do u want Palastines to do, clap there hands for taking there lands, or leave it to u just because u want it, what do u expect them to do infront of the missiles that is controlled from far distances, ofcourse they'll try to deffend themselves, by anyway, even if this way will kill them, and not only men do it, ladies and women also do this, that means, THAT EVEN PALASTINIAN LADIES AND WOMEN R MORE BRAVE THAN UR SOLDIERS, cauze they r not afraid to die, cauze they believe in a case, and are ready to die for it
that's enough for u till now, u better man keep silent, or u will really hear what u don't wanna hear (..What do you mean Israel is occupying land in 'palestine'?..)
I meant exactly what I wrote, Israel is occupying Palestinian territories.
(..Palestine is Israel it belongs to the jewish people..)
Sure, and Charlie Chaplin is staring the Matrix.
Listen dear, you can always close your eyes with your free will in refusing to see the lights, but no matter what you do, you can't hide the sun!
These's an occupation, there are occupiers, and there are sufferers.
Sufferers are no aliens, they are humans just like you and me!
Their correct name is Palestinians, cause they belong to the holy land of Palestine.
Occupation is bad by itself, but since Israelis added alot of misery to this occupation like ethnic cleansing, inducing poverty, demolishing, destructing, obstruction, domination, starvtion, humiliation, forceful expulsion, isolation, and blockage, now occupation can't be justified by any reasons whatever, so don't waste time.
Some brave Israeli officers and soldiers refused this occupation and refused to serve in the occupied territories.
And they wrote the following in the statement they published in newspaper of Ha'aretz:
===
- We, combat officers and soldiers who have served the State of Israel for long weeks every year, in spite of the dear cost to our personal lives, have been on reserve duty all over the Occupied Territories, and were issued commands and directives that had nothing to do with the security of our country, and that had the sole purpose of perpetuating our control over the Palestinian people.....
- We, whose eyes have seen the bloody toll this Occupation exacts from both sides....
- We, who sensed how the commands issued to us in the Territories, destroy all the values we had absorbed while growing up in this country....
- We, who understand now that the price of Occupation is the loss of IDF’s human character and the corruption of the entire Israeli society.....
- We, who know that the Territories are not Israel, and that all settlements are bound to be evacuated in the end.....
- We hereby declare that we shall not continue to fight this War of the Settlements.....
- We shall not continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people....
- We hereby declare that we shall continue serving in the Israel Defense Forces in any mission that serves Israel’s defense. The missions of occupation and oppression do not serve this purpose and we shall take no part in them.
===
Still arguing about the presence of occupation?
Now let's surge to second issue "the wall".
When Nazi Germans blocked poor German Jews behind the concrete walls of the Ghettos, they justified it by saying "we are protecting the nation", just exactly the same of what Israeli are saying nowadays about Palestinians, which showen the resembling between Nazi and Israeli leaders.
If you want to stop the attackers from attacking you, stop occupying their lands!
And if you want to build the wall, build it on your OWN lands, not on Palestinians' land!
Now let's talk about the effects of the wall.
In Nov. 11 UN warned that Israeli wall will
have "severe humanitarian consequences" for almost 700,000 Palestinians.
More than 274,000 will be stranded outside the wall because Israel refuses to build it along the internationally recognised Green Line.
Thousands will be forced to apply for Israeli military permits to live in their own homes!
But the consequences will reach further, the report warns.
A further 400,000 Palestinians will be cut off from their farmland, their jobs, universities and schools.
"This means that approximately 680,000 - 30 per cent of the Palestinian population in the West Bank - will be directly harmed by the wall," the UN said in a report.
If this is not a big concentration camp, then I don't know anything else do!
(..Tell me, how many Israelis do you see going up to innocent palestinians and blowing themselves up?..)
To kill and terrorise Palestinians you don't have to blow yourself up with them, you can just order the jets to do the job.
(..And do you see Iraelis dancing in the street everytime they hear that a palestinian was killed? I've seen many "innocent" palestinians doing that..)
May be because Palestinians are not occupying you, but YOU are occupying them.
Ahhh... one more thing, Israeli settlers did really celebrated Baruch Goldstein's massacre of some 50 Palestinians.
It's something disgusting, just as if they celebrated Hitler deeds.
In last, I must end this post with the words of the founder and the spiritual leader of the political Israeli party "Shas", Israeli Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, who was quoted in Ha'aretz April 12, 2001, saying:
"May the Holy Name visit retribution on the Arab heads, and cause their seed to be lost, and annihilate them....
It is forbidden to have pity on them....
We must give them missiles with relish, annihilate them....
Evil ones, damnable ones...."
He's not only encouraging the killing of Palestinians, but he's also urging Israelis to not feel sorry about it!
And the Israeli Holocaust is going on.
Thanks for reading. Okay, I've changed my mind. I'm not willing to discuss anything with people who justify or deny the holocaust.
I'm willing to discuss with Lt Ryan though. You make some interesting claims.
I meant exactly what I wrote, Israel is occupying Palestinian territories.
Those are not Palestinian territories, they are DISPUTED territories. There was no Palestinian state there that we took over. There was a territory of Jordan that we conquered in the war of 1967, when along with Syria and Egypt, Jordan decided it was going to destroy the land of Israel and throw the Jews into the sea. The Arabs of the West Bank are the same people as the Arabs of Jordan, but nevertheless they asked for autonomy and we gave them. Then they asked for a state with borders and we were in the process of giving them that too when a terrorist campaign was launched on us and we had to stop the process, out of consideration for our own security. The peace agreements (in Oslo and in Camp David) both said that we would give the Palestinians full independence and they would stop the violence. They did not stop the violence, and so we do not owe them a state. If there was peace that demand might have had some credibility.
Occupation is bad by itself, but since Israelis added alot of misery to this occupation like ethnic cleansing, inducing poverty, demolishing, destructing, obstruction, domination, starvtion, humiliation, forceful expulsion, isolation, and blockage, now occupation can't be justified by any reasons whatever, so don't waste time.
By Occupation I assume you mean military presence. Yes, there is one, and if there weren't one, every single day tens of Israelis would get killed. We're very successful in stopping terrorism, and although everyone understands this is not the way to stop the terror, it is still a way to reduce it. Maybe you can but we can't ignore its neccessity.
I agree that the current way the army is running things is far from ideal. Our soldiers and Palestinians civilians are constantly being killed when the Palestinians themselves could, if they wanted to, fight terrorism much more effectively and with less casualties than us. Unfortunately, they've proved to the world that they're not interested in fighting terrorism, they think it helps their cause, and they're probably right. It's known worldwide that you don't try and appease terrorists. They don't stop, they just get encouraged to do more. Israel realised this too late, the Palestinians have already reached the conclusion that whenever they wan't something, terrorism is the answer. What we need is an international or Palestinian peace keeping force. The Israelis are hated by the locals and I realise that everytime they stop one attacks they add fuel to the collective fire and inspire people to do more. But what alternative do we have? To let the terrorists roam free? Until we have someone else suitable to deal with this situation this is the only choice we've got.
Accusing the Israelis of mass genocide and intentionally making the Palestinians' lives miserable are ridiculous and groundless. Whenever an Israeli soldier steps out of line he is persecuted, there are laws for the army, but as I said, we're faced with a difficult situation here, and in wars people get hurt. Which is why this should stop, but that is solely up to the Palestinians.
Some brave Israeli officers and soldiers refused this occupation and refused to serve in the occupied territories.
Yes, there is an occupation. As I said it's neccessary right now. I'd be delighted if you came up with an alternative for us. The question is whether this occupation is as overwrought with cruelty as you think. I've never served in the territories so I don't know. but knowing how Israeli society works, I seriously doubt it.
These are just a handful of soldiers that agree with you. There are tens of thousands that disagree.
Now let's surge to second issue "the wall".
When Nazi Germans blocked poor German Jews behind the concrete walls of the Ghettos, they justified it by saying "we are protecting the nation", just exactly the same of what Israeli are saying nowadays about Palestinians, which showen the resembling between Nazi and Israeli leaders.
If you want to stop the attackers from attacking you, stop occupying their lands!
And if you want to build the wall, build it on your OWN lands, not on Palestinians' land!
Nazi Germans locked the Jews in ghettos and then proceeded to murder as many of them as they could because the Jews were not part of the "pure" Aryan race. It was to protect the purity of race, not the security of their people.
Israel is putting a security fence between the heart of Israel and the cores of terrorism so that Palestinains won't go to Israeli buses, cafes and shopping malls and murder men, women and children for the sake of killing Jews (which is btw, VERY nazi-like).
Palestinains are complaining about being disconnected from the centre of Israel because of economical reasons. There are lots of places for them to work in Israel. Can you really say to me that we must put out lives in danger in order to supply jobs to the Palestinian people? That's preposterous. When they're not killing our civilians they can come and ask for favors. Right now that is not a legitimate demand.
The security fence is being built on OUR land. Everything from the Jordan River to the Mediterranian belongs to the state of Israel. Some of it might have belonged to the Palestinians if they kept their part of the deal. Again, this is asking for favours while they're killing us.
Now let's talk about the effects of the wall...
...If this is not a big concentration camp, then I don't know anything else do!
No, it's not a concentration camp. The concentration camps were where Nazis rounded up Jews from all over Europe and forced them to work in dispicable conditions for the Nazi state. They were starved, randomly torured or killed at the whims of the German officers and were disposed of when they were of no more use to the Nazis. Families were separated, the inmates completely at the mercy of their sometimes sadistic officers. Jews' lives meant only the amount of work they were able tp do, and when it wasn't sufficent they were sent to the crematoriums.
What the Israelis are doing is building a security fence. It's sad that this will have economical repercussions but its purpose it to save lives. This is actually done so that we won't have to go on so many military operations that put the Palestinians' lives directly at risk.
To kill and terrorise Palestinians you don't have to blow yourself up with them, you can just order the jets to do the job.
Jets are not sent to murder civilians, they're sent to kill terrorist leaders in order to avert huge disasters. Many times innocent Palestinians get killed and although this is sometimes due to negligence by the pilots, it's usually due to terrorists surrounding themselves with civilians in order to protect their own lives or gain another victory in the world propogands war. What we have to do is not just look at the people immediately killed, but calculate them against the lives saved in the long run and then decide what we think. Some assasinations were justified and some were not. But ultimately more lives were saved than were lost.
May be because Palestinians are not occupying you, but YOU are occupying them.
Ahhh... one more thing, Israeli settlers did really celebrated Baruch Goldstein's massacre of some 50 Palestinians.
It's something disgusting, just as if they celebrated Hitler deeds.
Yes, the Palestinians aren't occupying us but they are openly supporting terrorism against us. You'd be surprised to know that actually right now Israelis aren't too fond of the Palestinians, but most of us have the sense not to take joy in the death of innocent people.
There is a serious problem with some of the Israeli settlers regarding racism and the general treatment of the Palestinians but they they do not reflect the majority of Israeli citizens or even Israeli settlers.
In last, I must end this post with the words of the founder and the spiritual leader of the political Israeli party "Shas", Israeli Rabbi Ovadia Yosef...
Rabbi Ovadia Yosef and his party Shas are some of the saddest things to come over Israeli society. They are probably the most hated party in Israel, they lie to their own people, they make secular Israeli's lives miserable, and they're constantly treading the thin line between democracy and fascism. Luckily they don't have too much power nowadays and are mostly background noise. I wouldn't pay too much attention to them :) (..I'm not willing to discuss anything with people who justify or deny the holocaust....I'm willing to discuss with Lt Ryan though. You make some interesting claims..)
Thank you, but you are just doing the same by denying & justifying the occupation!
(..Those are not Palestinian territories..)
May be, but the thing which is sure that those are not Israeli territories.
(..they are DISPUTED territories..)
Funny term, but not a true one.
(..There was no Palestinian state there that we took over..)
Yes there was one state with the name of Palestine, and Britain was mandating it before Israel was established in 1948.
(..There was a territory of Jordan that we conquered in the war of 1967..)
After the war of 1948 Jordan controlled the West Bank, while Egypt controlled Gaza.
In the war of 1967 Israel occupied both of them.
(..The Arabs of the West Bank are the same people as the Arabs of Jordan..)
The Jews in Israel are the same people as the Jews in Europe, why don't you go back to Europe?
(..but nevertheless they asked for autonomy and we gave them..)
They were asking for the end of occupation and establishing their own state, and until now, their demand wasn't answer.
(..Then they asked for a state with borders and we were in the process of giving them that too when a terrorist campaign was launched on us and we had to stop the process..)
You are occupying their lands since 1967, refusing to pull back the occupying troops, you keep building settlements on THEIR lands, and you expect them to laugh in your face?
(..The peace agreements (in Oslo and in Camp David) both said that we would give the Palestinians full independence and they would stop the violence. They did not stop the violence, and so we do not owe them a state..)
You are twisting facts.
What happened was that Israeli kept the Palestinian occupied territories under occupation, no matter what Palestinians did.
Even when they held a truce for compelete month, Israel couldn't resist the pleasur to kill Palestinians.
(..By Occupation I assume you mean military presence..)
Occupation means "in case you don't know" to take control of a country by military forces of a foreign power, and that's exactly what Israel is doing.
Plus the other nasty things they force on Palestinians "ethnic cleansing, inducing poverty, demolishing, domination, starvtion, humiliation, isolation, and blockage..etc."
(..We're very successful in stopping terrorism..)
In fact, Israel couldn't established without terrorism,
That's what Ben-Gurion said in his diary.
Yitzhak Shamir the Lehi's head and who became prime minister in 1983 response with big "YES" when asked "are terrorist activities useful for the progress of revolution and liberation".
Menachem Begin later to become prime minister of Israel in 1977— was a bloody terrorist and British police was after him, he had a £2,000 price on his head too!
Israelis are terrorists, their leaders are terrorists, their army formed of gangs and murderers.
And the worst part when they blame Palestinians for terrorism!
David Ben Gurion, the first Israeli Prime Minister, profess: "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" (Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in The Jewish Paradox, p121).
Israeli opposition and Meretz leader MK Yossi Sarid thinks he knows how to end the cycle of terror and bloodshed in the Holy Land. He is onto something when he said (Jerusalem Post, 04/03/2002), in response to an attack on Israelis by Palestinian militants, that the "terror wave would continue as long as the occupation does."
" ... the brutal and illegal tactics of the Israeli Defence Forces in the occupied territories ... [the] occupation, the forced evacuations, the settlements, the refugee camps, the whole shameful history of the dreadful suffering of the Palestinian people; Jews, of all people, with our history of suffering, should refuse to treat our fellow human beings like that."....Tony Kushner; Interview, London Times, 7 May 2002.
(..Accusing the Israelis of mass genocide and intentionally making the Palestinians' lives miserable are ridiculous and groundless..)
Oh really?
But that's another fact, which you might don't like!
Benny Morris is an Israeli historian, wrote some valuble books about those facts.
In his book "Israel's Border Wars" he stated that Israel had to sweep Arab towns and villages as a whole, to be established.
And in his second book "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem" he stated how Israelis massacred Palestinians.
Morris presented an important document in his book for "Yosef Nachmani", who was a high-ranking member of the pre-independence underground, Haganah; the director of the offices of the Jewish National Fund in Tiberias; and the man responsible for purchasing and settling land throughout the Galilee and Jezreel Valley regions.
Nachmani stated:
" ... the acts of cruelty committed by our soldiers. After they went into Safsaf, the village and its people raised a white flag... They separated the men from the women, tied the hands of some 50 to 60 peasants and shot and killed them, burying them in a single hole.... They also raped a number of the women from the village.... Alongside the wood, he [probably an eye-witness by the name of Freedman - G.L.] saw a few dead women, among them one who was holding her dead child in her arms ..."
"...In Salha, which raised a white flag, they carried out a real massacre, killing men and women, about 60 to 70 people. Where did they find such a degree of cruelty like that of the Nazis? They learned from them..."
An Israeli saying that his people applied the same tactics of NAZIS.
Any way, just for more information, please visit those links, they will provied you with more data about the massacres performed against Palestinians "enjoy the pictures!":
1) http://www.palestinehistory.com/massacre.htm
2) http://www.iap.org/massacres.htm
3) http://resistance.jeeran.com/massacres/gallery.htm (Pic's gallery)
4) http://www.angelfire.com/al/quwaizani/israel.html
5) http://www.jerusalemites.org/intro.html
6) http://www16.brinkster.com/mypalestine/article02.htm
7) http://www.palestine-info.com/terrorism/terror4.htm (Good site)
8) http://www.hebron.com/massacres.html
9) http://www.ssnp.com/Holocaust/other%20massacres.htm
(..Whenever an Israeli soldier steps out of line he is persecuted, there are laws for the army..)
After Warplanes bomb a group of children celebrating a festival in the Bekaa Valley killing 8 of them, and in an interview with the Kolhaer magazine, five Israeli soldiers quote their commander:
"We are skilled marksmen. Anyhow, there are millions of Arabs... It's their problem. Whether Arabs become one more or less is just the same...We have accomplished our duty. The whole issue is not about more than a group of Arabosheem. We should have launched more shells to kill more Arabs."
Arabosheem is a racist term hostile to Arabs used by the Israelis.
Sure, their is a law in the Israeli army, and it's Kill Kill Kill.
(..Yes, there is an occupation..)
Thank you... at last!
(..As I said it's neccessary right now..)
Hitler said the same about Holocaust...it's neccessary.
You are just following his steps... keep doing it, and you will end up in war-crimes court.
(..I'd be delighted if you came up with an alternative for us..)
End occupation, they end fight, simple!
(..The question is whether this occupation is as overwrought with cruelty as you think. I've never served in the territories so I don't know..)
I never been in Nazi Germany, but still I know how crimes against humanity can be done.
(..Nazi Germans locked the Jews in ghettos and then proceeded to murder as many of them as they could because the Jews were not part of the "pure" Aryan race..)
Israelis locked Arabs in Ghettos and then proceeded to murder as many of them as they could because Arabs are not part of the God's favored nation.
(..The security fence is being built on OUR land. Everything from the Jordan River to the Mediterranian belongs to the state of Israel..)
Well, you still better than old Zionists, who claim that Israel is the land between the Nile and Euphrates.
(..No, it's not a concentration camp..)
Keeping repeating it won't make it true by the way.
(..Yes, the Palestinians aren't occupying us but they are openly supporting terrorism against us..)
From what written above, we can all see that Israelis are the ones who applied Nazi-like terrorism against the people of Palestine.
Finally, this quote from the diary of Yitzhak Tabenkin, a charismatic leader of the kibbutz movement.
In his diary, Tabenkin stated, "the ideals of Hitler which I like: ethnic homogeneity, the possibility of exchange of ethnic minorities; the transfers of ethnic groups for the sake of an international order which for me are a particularly valuable feature."
Israel people really loves Hitler. Opss....
I forgot to thank Sephiroth for his kind comment. :)
Away from "IsraHell" subject, Matrix is one of my favorite movies.
The thing I like the most in Matrix, is the underneath message of fighting the system.
The awesome techniques of filming is something incredible.
In few words, you can't but to love the movie.
I'm still reading the other members' comments on the film, and soon I'll contribute in the discussion. As we condemn Nazism of group of Germans and some of their allies, we must not to forget to condemn all and any types of racism and fascism.
Jews of different nationalities were always been targets of racism, and no matter what are the reasons, it was always unacceptable to justify this racism.
But sadly, the worst kind of crimes committed against Jews, were done with full support of Zionists.
In Germany, Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, England, Russia and France, Zionists always cold-shouldered the requests for help, if not joining the criminals in slaughtering Jewish people.
We must start differentiate between the Jew, the Zionist and the Israeli.
They are aren't the one.
An example, an English man can be "or can be not" a Christian, and in the same time he can be "or can not be" an imperialist.
Now let's get directly to the point.
Jews unfortunately were victims for Zionism!
Ralph Schoeman wrote about this subject and said:
(...If the colonization of Palestine has been characterized by a series of depredations, we should take a moment to examine the attitude of the Zionist movement not only toward its Palestinian victims, but toward the Jews themselves....)
(...Herzl himself wrote of the Jews in the following fashion: "I achieved a freer attitude toward anti-Semitism, which I now began to understand historically and to pardon. Above all, I recognized the emptiness and futility of trying to 'combat' anti-Semitism."...)
(...The youth organization of the Zionists, Hashomer Hatzair "young Guard" published the following: "A Jew is a caricature of a normal, natural human being, both physically and spiritually. As an individual in society he revolts and throws off the harness of social obligations, knows no order nor discipline."...)
(...."The Jewish people," wrote Jabotinsky in the same vein, "is a very bad people; its neighbors hate it and rightly so ... its only salvation lies in a general immigration to the land of Israel."
(...The founders of Zionism despaired of combatting anti-Semitism and, paradoxically, regarded the anti-Semites themselves as allies, because of a shared desire to remove the Jews from the countries in which they lived...)
**(...Step by step, they assimilated the values of Jew-hatred and anti-Semitism, as the Zionist movement came to regard the anti-Semites themselves as their most reliable sponsors and protectors...)** {must read}
(...Theodor Herzl approached none other than Count Von Plehve, the author of the worst pogroms in Russia - the pogroms of Kishinev with the following proposition: "Help me to reach the land [Palestine] sooner and the revolt [against Czarist rule] will end." Von Plehve agreed, and he undertook to finance the Zionist movement. He was later to complain to Herzl: 'The Jews have been joining the revolutionary parties. We were sympathetic to your Zionist movement as long as it worked toward emigration. You don't have to justify the movement to me. You are preaching to a convert." Herzl and Weizmann offered to help guarantee Czarist interests in Palestine and to rid Eastern Europe and Russia of those "noxious and subversive Anarcho-Bolshevik Jews."...)
(...As we have noted, the same appeal was made by the Zionists to the Sultan of Turkey, the Kaiser in Germany, to French imperialism and to the British Raj....)
(...Mussolini set up squadrons of the Revisionist Zionist youth movement, Betar, in black shirts in emulation of his own Fascist bands....)
**(....When Menachem Begin became chief of Betar, he preferred the brown shirts of the Hitler gangs, a uniform Begin and Betar members wore to all meetings and rallies - at which they greeted each other and opened and closed meetings with the fascist salute....)** {must read}
(...Simon Petilura was a Ukranian fascist who personally directed pogroms which killed 28,000 Jews in 897 separate pogroms. Jabotinsky negotiated an alliance with Petilura, proposing a Jewish police force to accompany Petilura's forces in their counter-revolutionary fight against the Red Army and the Bolshevik Revolution - a process involving the murder of peasant, worker and intellectual supporters of the revolution..)
We will continue later.
Thanks for reading. Wow guys, you can put a book together with the stuff you wrote. This is probaply the Thread with the most words in 2 Pages O_O (..This is probaply the Thread with the most words in 2 Pages..)
Question is, have we learn from them?
I hope so! Now let's continue with Ralph Schoeman and his study about the strong relations between Zionism and racism...
Schoeman accusing Zionism with collaborating with the Nazis, and he says:
(...This strategy of enlisting Europe's virulent Jew-haters, and of aligning with the most vicious movements and regimes as financial and military patrons of a Zionist colony in Palestine, did not exclude the Nazis...)
(...The Zionist Federation of Germany sent a memorandum of support to the Nazi Party on June 21, 1933. In it the Federation noted: "...a rebirth of national life such as is occurring in German life ... must also take place in the Jewish national group....)
And
(... "On the foundation of the new [Nazi] state which has established the principle of race, we wish so to fit our community into the total structure so that for us, too, in the sphere assigned to us, fruitful activity for the Fatherland is possible"....)
(...Far from repudiating this policy, the World Zionist Organization Congress in 1933 defeated a resolution calling for action against Hitler by a vote of 240 to 43....)
(...During this very Congress, Hitler announced a trade agreement with the WZO's Anglo-Palestine Bank, breaking, thereby, the Jewish boycott of the Nazi regime at a time when the German economy was extremely vulnerable. It was the height of the Depression and people were wheeling barrels full of worthless German Marks....)
(...The World Zionist Organization broke the Jewish boycott and became the principal distributor of Nazi goods throughout the Middle East and Northern Europe. They established the Ha'avara, which was a bank in Palestine designed to receive monies from the German-Jewish bourgeoisie, with which sums Nazi goods were purchased in very substantial quantity....)
I'm not going to write more, to give the chance for the other members to read and understand "and to discuss" the written post.
As you noticed, history events seems little different from what school teachers told us!
Thanks for reading. hmm. i can't believe what i've read. i've seen it on the news, i've seen it at cafeteria discussions..
but a discussion of this scope between a palestine supporter and a israeli jew... sigh.
what is our world coming to? both of you have your points, but both of you are incredibly biased.
the cycle contines on.. a sucide bomber killing innocent jews... israel then responding by killing innocent palestines... then another sucide bomber in response to the killing.. and then more killing, and more and more and more.
and this cycle is continuing because of extremists and biased people like you.. its really sad.
what, next you'll be telling me that america deserved the 9-11 incident?
be pragmatic. find middle ground. chill out. when you realize that you aren't always right, you'll finally find out what's really right. (..i can't believe what i've read..)
What exactly the thing you don't believe?
(..but a discussion of this scope between a palestine supporter and a israeli jew..)
Personally, I'm non of them.
(..what is our world coming to? both of you have your points, but both of you are incredibly biased..)
Hmm... not sure to whom you are talking?
(..the cycle contines on.. a sucide bomber killing innocent jews... israel then responding by killing innocent palestines..)
Actually the cycle goes in this way... Israeli kills Palestinians, Palestinians seek revange.
Because occupation came before resistance.
To break the cycle, occupation "the action" must stop, so resistance "reaction" will ultimately stop.
(..and this cycle is continuing because of extremists and biased people like you..)
Nope.
In fact the cycle continues because everybody refuse to see the problem, and refuse to contribute in the solution.
And also because taxes of my good money keep flowing to war criminals in MEast.
(..next you'll be telling me that america deserved the 9-11 incident? ..)
Certainly I'd love to know how you assumed such a thing!
This is far beyond my thoughts. first of all i'd like to thank Lieutenant_Ryan for his explanation about this intricate case .......
when i start realising the connection between the Zionism and the racism i get littel confused in the first , and then i realised that there is no differnce between them , zionists and Nazins is one thing and there is no other way to deny it !!!
so if we reach this point im now start to astonish why the Zionists still crying untill now from what the Nazis doing to them during the WW2 !!!! if they still doing the same way of the Nazis againest the palestinian ???
destiny it seems , they cleaning them tears by one hand ( tears of the holocaust ) and by the other hand doing another holocaust againest the palestinias !!!!! and now they start to imitate another Ghetto by bulding the insulator wall !!!
thanks Lieutenant_Ryan , you have cleared so many dark points ........ You have the right to be shocked & astonished by the connections between Zionists and Nazis.
But looking deep into the ideology of Zionism you will see then a shocking similarity to that of Nazism!
The principles which both ideologies share in common are more than we can count, but the most important one is "racism".
Zionists help Nazis to exterminate millions of Jews, and refused to save them or to let other nations "UK and USA" to do, just for one target, to scare the hell out of European Jews and send them to the holy land of Palestine.
That was crime "one".
Crime "two" was repeating the holocaust scenario to Palestinians.
And crime "three" is to milk Europeans money, and to leave them feeling guilty for crimes done by racists of Nazism and Zionism.
Ok, I'm not trying to lecture you or anybody else, and I'm not going to write my thoughts in this point, again I'll leave the mike to Mr. Ralph Schoeman to continue his study about Zionism and it's crimes against Jewish people.
(...Consequently, the Zionists brought Baron Von Mildenstein of the S.S. Security Service to Palestine for a six-month visit in support of Zionism. This visit led to a twelve-part report by Joseph Goebbels, Hitler's Minister of Propaganda, in Der Angriff "The Assault" in 1934 praising Zionism. Goebbels ordered a medallion struck with the Swastika on one side, and on the other, the Zionist Star of David....)
(...In May 1935, Reinhardt Heydrich, the chief of the S.S. Security Service, wrote an article in which he separated Jews into "two categories." The Jews he favored were the Zionists: "Our good wishes together with our official good will go with them."...)
(...In 1937, the Labor "socialist" Zionist militia, the Haganah "founded by Jabotinsky" sent an agent "Feivel Polkes" to Berlin offering to spy for the S.S. Security Service in exchange for the release of Jewish wealth for Zionist colonization. Adolf Eichmann was invited to Palestine as the guest of the Haganah....)
(...Feivel Polkes informed Eichmann: "Jewish nationalist circles were very pleased with the radical German policy, since the strength of the Jewish population in Palestine would be so far increased thereby that in the foreseeable future the Jews could reckon upon numerical superiority over the Arabs."...)
(...The Zionists, to the contrary, saw any effort to rescue Europe's Jews not as the fulfilment of their political purpose but as a threat to their entire movement. If Europe's Jews were saved, they would wish to go elsewhere and the rescue operation would have nothing to do with the Zionist project of conquering Palestine....)
Thanks for reading.
To be continued. isn't it true that the land that Israel currently lives on was once a barren desert-like area? then when the land was given to them (yes, given, not occupied by them, through war with other countries), they cultiviated it into a beautiful land and hired Palestines and other arabs to work in the land. then when the land became a better place to live in, Palestines screamed and claimed that the land was theirs. the land used to be Israel's in the past anyway and it was taken by them.. and its back to them. so how does one decide what's really who's? and i don't understand -- Israel allowed Palestines to live on their land. It was only when they formed terrorists collations that harassed the land that they had to take action.
and i dont consider bombing people in buses or buildings who have nothing to do with the "occupation" a type of "resistance"... this kind of act must include the belief that ALL Israelists are evil.. and this kind of belief is the worst type of racism.
i'm not talking to you, Ryan, I know i won't be able to change your mind. you're an extremist, your views cannot be changed by a forum.. im talkin to other people who may read this. the title of this thread is "xenophobia" and that's actually a fitting topic. ryan -- where are you from anyway? whats your background? so we can understand where you're coming from a little better plz use the edit button, do not spam.
sorry for this smith_fan, do not be sour cos ur missing the premier of ROTK. (..isn't it true that the land that Israel currently lives on was once a barren desert-like area?..)
No.
It was greener than it's right now.
(..then when the land was given to them (yes, given, not occupied by them..)
Who gave them the land?
Please, don't disappoint me and say God.
Because I'v already wrote you what D. Ben-Gurion said about this...he said: "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?".
See, he said it clearly....."WE_HAVE_STOLEN_THEIR_COUNTRY"
Dear, they are occupying the land, and there 're dozen of UN resolutions regarding this matter.
By the way, Poland was given to Nazi by UK and France, but Nazi had the courage to call it an occupation unlike their mates the Zionists.
(..they cultiviated it into a beautiful land and hired Palestines and other arabs to work in the land..)
May be turned it beautiful to Israelis, but for Palestinians it was always a slaughterhouse.
(..then when the land became a better place to live in, Palestines screamed and claimed that the land was theirs..)
!!!!
A claim dosen't even deserve a reply.
(..the land used to be Israel's in the past anyway ..)
I have a very intersting study made by some Jews stating that old Palestine was first a home for Canaan people.
If you are intrested, I can send it to you.
(..Israel allowed Palestines to live on their land. It was only when they formed terrorists collations that harassed the land that they had to take action..)
You want my advise?
With your senseless talk, you are harming your case.
Even Israeli know that occupation happened 36 year back, before any bombings or any intifada.
(..and i dont consider bombing people in buses or buildings who have nothing to do with the "occupation" a type of "resistance"..)
You don't even consider occupation an occupation!
You are siding with aggressors whatever they do, or they did.
You are very biased, dishonest and ignorant.
The worse that you are refusing to learn!
(..i'm not talking to you, Ryan...)
Really?
I thought you did!
(..I know i won't be able to change your mind..)
You can't change facts.
Frankly, until now you wrote nothing worthy.
Freeyourmind represented his case better than you.
(.. you're an extremist, your views cannot be changed by a forum..)
Is that threatening?
What is your point?
(..ryan -- where are you from anyway?..)
The red liquid. Ralph Schoeman, the author of "The Hidden History of Zionism" continue:
**(...The correlative to the acts of collaboration with the Nazis throughout the 1930's was that when attempts to change the immigration laws of the United States and Western Europe were contemplated in order to provide token refuge for persecuted Jews of Europe, it was the Zionists who actively organized to stop these efforts...)** {must read}
(...This obsession with colonizing Palestine and overwhelming the Arabs led the Zionist movement to oppose any rescue of the Jews facing extermination, because the ability to deflect select manpower to Palestine would be impeded. From 1933 to 1935, the WZO turned down two-thirds of all the German Jews who applied for immigration certificates...)
(...Berel Katznelson, editor of the Labor Zionist Davar, described the "cruel criteria of Zionism:" German Jews were too old to bear children in Palestine, lacked trades for building a Zionist colony, didn't speak Hebrew and weren't Zionists. In place of these Jews facing extermination the WZO brought to Palestine 6,000 trained young Zionists from the United States, Britain and other safe countries...)
(...Worse than this, the WZO not merely failed to seek any alternative for the Jews facing the Holocaust, the Zionist leadership opposed belligerently all efforts to find refuge for fleeing Jews...)
(...As late as 1943, while the Jews of Europe were being exterminated in their millions, the U.S. Congress proposed to set up a commission to "study" the problem. Rabbi Stephen Wise, who was the principal American spokesperson for Zionism, came to Washington to testify against the rescue bill because it would divert attention from the colonization of Palestine..)
**(...This is the same Rabbi Wise who, in 1938, in his capacity as leader of the American Jewish Congress, wrote a letter in which he opposed any change in U.S. immigration laws which would enable Jews to find refuge. He stated:
"It may interest you to know that some weeks ago the representatives of all the leading Jewish organizations met in conference. ... It was decided that no Jewish organization would, at this time, sponsor a bill which would in any way alter the immigration laws."...)** {must read}
Don't just blame Nazis for Holocaust, but fight also their crime-partners the Zionists.
View Full Version : "xenophobia"...
Sadams capture - Are you a left wing or a right wing kinda guy/garl?
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