what is with the sentinal?

My friend and i are having a heated debate about the matrix revolutions. We both want to know why the sentinal went through neo's body twords the end while he was moving twords the machiene city. if you could help that would be great

It was just givin neo a hug, to show him that peace was the answer.

terikan ive seen your posts dont post any thing in here anymore your a spammer and a prick and dont deserve to be in here

terikan dont post anything in here anymore
ive seen your posts your a spammer and a prick and u dont nne dto be in here

While I admit that the digit coming after your name is substantially higher than my post count, I still find it hard to accept that someone with 4 posts (3 of which in this thread) should be telling anyone what to post.

BTW, this has been brought up many many times. Perhaps the search button is your key to enlightenment.

Originally posted by Terikan
While I admit that the digit coming after your name is substantially higher than my post count, I still find it hard to accept that someone with 4 posts (3 of which in this thread) should be telling anyone what to post.

BTW, this has been brought up many many times. Perhaps the search button is your key to enlightenment. Thats his birthday. Real smart.

Yes, brilliant. Someone pm'ed me one time saying that they put the last 4 digits of their social security at the end of their name. Security anyone?

x<N e 0>x is right its my birthday anything else terikan? or are u just goin to spam some more?

and i really dont believe that giving anyone my birthday is going to compromise my security thank you very much

the machines i guess where thxing neo and there u go again terikan arguing with someone else

I'm not arguing. I believe everything everyone has said so far in this thread except for that last comment donutd00d.

However, you wouldn't see me putting my personal info, birthday or otherwise onto any usernames. You have to be careful. Some websites ask for your birthday for confirmation when retrieving passwords and such. I work for a dsl company that uses birthdays for security verification and if someone called in and knew your birthday, they could take over your dsl. If they are smart, then they'd screw you over so bad you'd have to contact sales (which sucks compared to how easy it is to get through to tech support) to get it back. And some people use their birthdays and other personal info for passwords or as their retrieval question.

There's more to this. But I don't want to get into it, the less people that know how to collect and utilize information to violate someone's privacy, the better.

This topics way off track. Did you search yet, or just click through the pages of this forum? I mean, I have seen like 3 other threads about it recently.

Originally posted by Terikan
It was just givin neo a hug, to show him that peace was the answer.

Terikan, THIS is your peak joke so far.

I just saw it again tonight and wondered that. I guess I'll search for other posts about it, but for now I'm going to respond here. At the end, Neo says something about how it is like everything is made of lights. I don't remember where I heard it, I think during halloween on some show about one of those people who scientifically investigates the paranormal. They said something about how the only way we see things is because of the light spectrum. I was thinking that Neo is seeing things as the machines do now that he is blind. But I don't know how the sentinel came through the ship and into him. Even if it exploded I couldn't understand how it went through the window, unless the particles are also made of light.

i dont really know how the machine past through him like that without crashing through the ship...

something to do with the sentinels electromagnetic field. I believe that is how neo senses the machines, by their field, that's why it looked like it went through him, but it didn't.

I brought this up in another thread... IMHO it looked like the sentinel was about to crash through the windshield of the ship. When it lunged forward, it seems like Neo was able to make it turn into energy and pass through the ship (kinda like the twins), almost sucking him out with it. Reason I say that is because when that happened, the view went to "Neo's sight" and both him and the sent started to pass through the back. Trin grabbed Neo's hand and held on to him to keep him from being drug with it. That seems to be a logical reason for this scene.

cant we all just get along?

That is the best expanation i have heard.

That neo made it turn into energy? That would be quite a trick, and would make the movie pretty awful.

Originally posted by sparty22687
and i really dont believe that giving anyone my birthday is going to compromise my security thank you very much

I don't know terikan, but he does post sometimes useless stuff. but you keep on dubbel posting.

yeah how did the sentinel get true neo. and why did it do that.

The Twins were in the Matrix, the sentinel was in the real world. So saying it was like the Twins wouldn't clear it up, unless the real world is also a Matrix, and I don't believe that it is.

this is very interestiing i also have no idea why that happened.I was wondering from the moment it happened...how and why......i hope someone comes up with the answer soon

This seems to be causing a lot of confusion.

I would suggest that Neo was in the process of blowing up the Sentinel, and as it was in mid explosion, the energy coming off the machine got attracted to the energy of Neo, because of the fact that he had so much power, and mainly, because of the fact that he was connected to the source. It looks like the energy was drawn to him like a magnet, (source energy magnetizing) and the force made it continue through him.

Why didn't it crash into the ship?

I can in no way answer this, but i'd say that the sentinel had exploded in the real world but what we saw hitting Neo was from the perspective of his second sight, on a different vibration. So the energy on that different vibration that Neo was also on (because of him being the 'one', and because of his connection to the source) was very forceful, and it hit him with force. (not damaging the ship on that vibration because the ship wasn't on it, it was on the 'real' world vibration.)

I believe that Neo was able to alter the form of the sentinel. Neo's abilities as the anomaly, or "The One", extend beyond the level of the Matrix that the Machines created. He can change things as he see fit. It is really not that far-fetched. If he could make those bombs prematurely detonate, why could he not change the physical form of the sentinel. I think that the Wachowski's were incorporating aspects of Jesus here. Many people are not quick to believe the things Jesus was said to do in the Bible. The same goes for Neo. Many need some concrete proof or explanation rather than excepting that it was his purpose to change the course of things. If you knew that was your purpose, then the power of your mind would be so powerful so as not to let anything stop you from reaching your goal. I'm not extremely religious, but I believe in the human spirit. We don't need scientific explanations or MAGIC TRICKS to explain our potential.

That's a cool reply. I'm glad that you see it that way.

I think your perfectly right in supposing that there "doesn't need to be an explanation." If it's someone's fate that they should do something, it simply doesn't matter about how some believe it or not, explain it or not. It just is.

They are all really good theorys... Some of you made believers out of me. Good job yo.

Yet none of it even touches the true reason.

The answer is there is no answer, I do not think the Brothers provided us with enough information to answer this satisfactorily, we can only speculate, which is a waste of energy.

I agree with Anomolous. Jesus did those things he did (the miraculous things) in the real world, so who's to say that Neo can't do miraculous things in the real world as well as the Matrix? It is what it is. We don't know why or how, but we do know that it happened. And that Neo is the one and his powers are far reaching. I guess that's all we know.

but you keep on dubbel posting.

Uhhh, no, you apparently don't know what it means to double post.

Anyways, you can't just say 'there's no answer to this' without also saying 'this movie sucks', because good movies make sense.

Also, neo is unable to keep trinity from dying. Ok, if he could do that, he would, but he obviously can't. So there is some sort of scientific explanation for his powers, or he would have done this. He obviously couldn't have changed the form of the sentinel, it's his connection with the source that allows him to do things. He makes the bombs blow up by accessing their programming via the source, giving them a command to blow up. If they weren't bombs already, he couldn't have made them blow up. Like sentinels, they don't blow up. They look like they are getting electricuted. Probably because my bio-electric theory is what the WBs are working with.

Similarly, it would answer the problem of the sentinel crashing. It wasn't it's physical self at all, it was it's electro-magnetic 'soul' as some people call it.

Seriously, answer why neo didn't save trinity before saying stuff like 'neo can do whatever he wants blah blah'.

I like the source energy theory, Trinity doesnt see it though does she? She just notices him falling back.

she notices that something affects him. He kinda yells and jerks around, so she grabs his hand. Maybe it acts as a kind of 'ground'.

So you're saying that it was the sentinel's soul (or essence, or program lingering). That would make more sense. The sentinel blew up and it's soul went through Neo, showing him that machines do have a spirit now, the A.I. each have a spirit, that is why they are 'life'.

no no no, that's not what I mean. I only said 'soul' because others have said that. Everything electronic creates a magnetic field. I think neo can sense this, and it's the sentinels magnetic field that 'looks' like a soul when shown in neo-vision.

some of these make kinda sense but it still doesnt make sense that an electro-magnetic field would rip through neo's body and almost pull him out of his seat

Originally posted by Terikan
no no no, that's not what I mean. I only said 'soul' because others have said that. Everything electronic creates a magnetic field. I think neo can sense this, and it's the sentinels magnetic field that 'looks' like a soul when shown in neo-vision.

What like how Daredevil sees sound to form an image??

yeah, like that.

and neo doesn't get almost pulled out of his chair, he just jerks around because he's sensitive to the field, and it rips through him, so it causes him pain.

I don't know Terikan either, but I have read his version 1.0 and has had good insights.

No offense to anyone here, but ppl do have to first use the search feature....as another friend of mine started a post on this before on this topic.....although the title is not the same. So i can see how u can miss the post.....but nonetheless there are several posts regarding this issue.

Also......I would agree with Terikan issue of security, and will not go off topic here on that either.

So far....I don't buy any of the explanations regarding that sentinel going through Neo on "bio-electricity" or some other "light-energy" or comaprison to religious beliefs.

Please stick to the movie and what we know from there.

I think Valasher had a great point intially:

".....But I don't know how the sentinel came through the ship and into him. Even if it exploded I couldn't understand how it went through the window, unless the particles are also made of light."

U would see the particles or the sentinel hitting the ship! Not dissolving like that.

In the defense against Zion between the humans in robot suits vs sentinels, nothing like the "soul explosion" happens........only with Neo. It leads me to belive in MIAM, but then Trinity death and Neo's limited abilities throw me off there as well.

Therefore there's something important I think we haven't caught on to I think.

So this scene is a big one.

-Supa

you said you don't by the electro-magnetic field thing, but you haven't said why not.

Well, I finally made A connection, although I can't fully explain it. When Neo is blinded by Smith/Bane, he sees the machines energy (I'm just going to refer to it as energy, I'm not a physicist). Well, he sees Smith/Bane's energy too, but he can't see Trinity. This is because there is a program within Bane's body, it's Smith. So he sees the Smith within Bane. This is nothing new, people have been posting it since before Revolutions was in theaters for the general public. But I don't see why we didn't make the connection in this thread when the scenes were so close to each other. Neo can see a program within a person's body, a program that is not made of real particles, but of light or energy particles. So why shouldn't he be able to see the program within a machine shell come through him?

Well......let me put in another way.
I don't buy that theory working here.

That is a good theory, as the humans that were born into the Matrix can communicate wirelessly since their body was already wired to work with the machines and the Matrix.

Therefore Neo can control/destroy sentinels. But I don't think change matter into energy like that.

Another thing is the "light" or "golden code". Neo sees it not only in the Matrix, but also in the "real" world. That leads me to believe that they are somehow connected (not just by plugging into the Matrix) and that there's something fishy about this "real" world.

But something is still viable here with that theory, just still not convinced with it.

I'll let u know when I am though.......lol.

-Supa

Ok, he's connected to the source, so he can sense the machines because they are also connected to the source.

Or, he can sense them more directly, through the magnetic field they give off.

Either way, the theory explains it just fine. And he didn't change matter into energy. How many times do I have to say that?

Valasher, that's very insightful. That may sort of explain it, but it makes me wonder how neo can see smith's 'energy'.

a.) that smith is connected to the source like neo is, so neo can sense him. but if that's true, why doesn't the source delete him, unless since he's in a human body they can't... yeah, that's probably it.

b.) smith entering a human body has modified that body's magnetic field and neo can see it.

I guess I'm going with a. mostly.

Originally posted by Valasher
I agree with Anomolous. Jesus did those things he did (the miraculous things) in the real world, so who's to say that Neo can't do miraculous things in the real world as well as the Matrix? It is what it is. We don't know why or how, but we do know that it happened. And that Neo is the one and his powers are far reaching. I guess that's all we know.

How does what one charactor did make any difference to what another charactor can do in another work of fiction?

Its like saying Neo can fly because Superman could fly... *confused* ???

All we can say is base it on the context of the three films, they stuck to the laws of the real world throught the films and what changed is Neo's link to the machines, yet to be explained..

Originally posted by Terikan
Ok, he's connected to the source, so he can sense the machines because they are also connected to the source.

Or, he can sense them more directly, through the magnetic field they give off.

Either way, the theory explains it just fine. And he didn't change matter into energy. How many times do I have to say that?

Valasher, that's very insightful. That may sort of explain it, but it makes me wonder how neo can see smith's 'energy'.

a.) that smith is connected to the source like neo is, so neo can sense him. but if that's true, why doesn't the source delete him, unless since he's in a human body they can't... yeah, that's probably it.

b.) smith entering a human body has modified that body's magnetic field and neo can see it.

I guess I'm going with a. mostly.

When Neo took Bane's head off with the pipe the golden "energy" seemed to leave the body and disappear.

It seemed as though Neo could see bioelectric energy, and Smiths had significantly changed Bane's to the point Neo could see it in much the same way he saw machines, they must have an electric signature that can be detected.

Originally posted by sparty22687
some of these make kinda sense but it still doesnt make sense that an electro-magnetic field would rip through neo's body and almost pull him out of his seat

It does, and i've already said this : the force of it was attracted to Neo as he was connected to the source. The energy of the blast was very close to the ship and it was drawn to him. It hit him in another dimension (must of been another as it left the ship unscathed.) and then passed through him. It looked really strange and the main point of this post is : it's only my view of it. Doesn't mean i'm right or that i think i'm right, just my personal view.

Originally posted by Eon dreamhacker
That's a cool reply. I'm glad that you see it that way.

I think your perfectly right in supposing that there "doesn't need to be an explanation." If it's someone's fate that they should do something, it simply doesn't matter about how some believe it or not, explain it or not. It just is.

Yeah, I'm reminded of something the Oracle told Neo in the first movie, "...being the One is like being in love, no one can tell you that you're in love; you just know."

Thanks for your comments.

I may be convinced here now as Valasher does it again:

"So why shouldn't he be able to see the program within a machine shell come through him?"

----That makes much more sense, sticking to "real-world" rules and "energy"!

Terikan:

"a.) that smith is connected to the source like neo is, so neo can sense him. but if that's true, why doesn't the source delete him, unless since he's in a human body they can't... yeah, that's probably it."

On...Smith not being able to get deleted...and I think the reason Smith was detroyed at the end: Smith still had a purpose......to destroy Neo or contain the anolomy. The source is powerless until that purpose is fullfilled.

But I might be back once I watch Revolutios again more closely........lol.

-Supa

Originally posted by Lt_Damage
How does what one charactor did make any difference to what another charactor can do in another work of fiction?

Its like saying Neo can fly because Superman could fly... *confused* ???

All we can say is base it on the context of the three films, they stuck to the laws of the real world throught the films and what changed is Neo's link to the machines, yet to be explained..

This post made me laugh so hard. Sorry if what I said before wasn't good enough. Neo is comparible to Jesus in a number of ways, so that makes his miraculousness relevant. I'm not addressing the fact that his flying makes him like Superman, or like the characters of Dragon Ball Z, because the only number of ways he's comparible to them is 1, the flying. Anyway, I shouldn't have posted that, it's not really proof, it was me giving up for the moment.




So on with the discussion. I don't know how or why Neo can see the Smith program within a human body, but he does, and when the body dies, the program dies, too. But what I am saying is that he can see, and manipulate programs from the real world, via the connections he has. I don't know what kind of connections they are, because as Terikan said, if that Smith program was already linked to the source, the machines would have destroyed it already. But what I am saying is that the energy from Bane's body and also from the machines body did the same thing, it lingered and then was dispersed and became invisible. The sentinel's energy just lingered longer, but the outcome was the same. Now, if we could just figure out a little more about the energy, then we'll have this thing solved.

Seems to me once Neo disable the machine the programming of the machine would return to the source. And if Neo does have a "wireless" connection to the source the program of the machine might try to use him as a quick conduit back to the source.

I like Terikan's explanation of how Neo is able to manipulate the Machines; HOWEVER, I do not recall any information given within the story that states that the source of the Matrix is also the source of ALL the Machines. I think this is a loophole of speculation that gives way to a concrete explanation that everyone is longing for. This thread contains posts by people who need a reason for everything, and people who concede to the fact that some things are not always logically answered with one solution. Many aspects of this story are subjective and open to perceptive interpretation. The source was only made out to be the source construct and source program for the Matrix, not for all of the Machine World.

Well.......in that case......i go w/
Lt_Damage:

"All we can say is base it on the context of the three films, they stuck to the laws of the real world throught the films and what changed is Neo's link to the machines, yet to be explained.."

An answer/perception/thought from a religious point of view or context reads more like a "blog" than a discussion in this particular thread.

That goes in a proper thread already estrablished somewhere on this board.

No offense to such posts here, but what's the point then!

Good point Supaman. Debate over an answer is more appropriate here. What's the fun of throwin' it up in the air like I did, huh? lol

Therefore, I must refer back to Terikan's explanation of Neo manipulating the Machines via the source. Best explanation I have heard: most logical. Anyway, in my 2.0 post I stated that I agreed with Terikan's "Bio-electricity Theory". Some humans are part machine now so Neo's connection coupled with being the One is justified.

Originally posted by Anomolous
I like Terikan's explanation of how Neo is able to manipulate the Machines; HOWEVER, I do not recall any information given within the story that states that the source of the Matrix is also the source of ALL the Machines.

This is kinda contradicting itself. You agree that Neo can manipulate the machines via the source yet you say the machines aren't connected to the source.

Am I misunderstanding you? I may be just getting to tired...It is past my bedtime.

So many things still dont make sense...

All this talk about about how humans are bio-electrically attached to the source is nonsense....

Machines need the humans as a source of power, fine...humans are attached to the Matrix to keep their brains alive so the body can live....i can deal with that. Hence, the Matrix plus the machinery that the humans are attached to act like a power source.....does your computer power source have any relevance in how your software works with your hardware...none.

SO Neo can manipulate software inside the Matrix, cool....how the hell can he do it in a real world???

There is really no point for Zion being around...its not there for the machines to obtain more humans....we see in M1 that the machines already have infants tubed in,they must have some form of creating humans. So the struggle with Zion seems pointless....the machines are already selfsustained....

On why Neo can't save Trinity the second time....maybe he hasn't realized that he is in another matrix yet.

Good one darkside!!

Well put...... as I don't buy this "bio-electricity" or being "one with the source" stuff either! Things don't add up here.

The only thing with the source is that the "one" or the anolomy has to be "identified" (by agents or otherwise) and then "showed" (the prophecy) the way to it, so the code can be reinserted to stabilize the Matrix again. It has nothing to do with the anomoly gaining power or anything once it gets to the source or otherwise. (Neo's powers were the same before he got to the source.....he could see the golden code as well....like when he saw Seraph for the first time. The only thing changed (AS STATED LIKE HUNDRED TIMES HERE BEFORE) is that now Neo can also see that in the "real" world.

I say this, cuz think about this: Everyone is given the same "powers" once they are born into the Matrix! It is with their given choice that one "wakes up" and or is "gifted" in his/her talents like we are in the real world. If they are good enough and shown the way, they'll realize to wake up from this "dream" and think beyond it.....and Neo is the "one" this time.

-Supa

Ok, let me get this straight, you think that they are in another matrix, even though you admit that would make no sense of neo's limitations?

And you say my idea doesn't add up? You can disagree with it all you want, but it's not incomplete and there's nothing it doesn't explain.

Originally posted by itsjussme
This is kinda contradicting itself. You agree that Neo can manipulate the machines via the source yet you say the machines aren't connected to the source.

Am I misunderstanding you? I may be just getting to tired...It is past my bedtime.

No I agree that Terikan's explanation is the best out of all that I have read, (besides mine). I was pointing out a loophole in his explanation by stating that no evidence was given that the Machines are connected to the source as well. The source is the source of the Matrix not the source of ALL Machines. Understand what I'm saying?

That's where you are wrong though. The source has always been the center of everything. The matrix in general, and every machine outside of it. It's a kind of hive mind setup.

The only disagreeable aspect of the "Bio-Electricity Theory" is that no information was given indicating that the Machines were attached to the source. Why would they be? The source of the Matrix is not necessarily the source of the Machines. However, humans that are unplugged are not pure human. They are now part machine. Neo's abilities in the Matrix are not limited to the Matrix. His purpose is to be an "anomaly" on any level of existence. It is not far-fetched to believe that he can sense the Machines. If he were pure human, he would not be able to sense the Machines. This is why the Bio-Electricity Theory is the best explanation given thus far.
Zion has a purpose. Without a real city, there is no prophecy, without a prophecy, there is no plan for containing the anomaly, thus the Matrix's probability for failure rises, thus the Machine's power supply and current way of "life" are threatened.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Terikan
[B]That's where you are wrong though. The source has always been the center of everything. The matrix in general, and every machine outside of it. It's a kind of hive mind setup.

How can you prove that T?

Supaman, remember that not everyone that is unplugged and then jacked in to the Matrix has abilities like Trinity, Morpheus, or Neo. No one else displayed any exceptional abilities besides these three.

Proof:

"That's (the source, she mentions earlier) what you touched when you touched those sentinels...but you weren't ready for it yet." - Oracle.

How could he touch the source via the sentinels if they weren't connected to the source? Now this doesn't mean all machines are, but it would only be logical to think so.

Originally posted by Terikan
Proof:

"That's (the source, she mentions earlier) what you touched when you touched those sentinels...but you weren't ready for it yet." - Oracle.

How could he touch the source via the sentinels if they weren't connected to the source? Now this doesn't mean all machines are, but it would only be logical to think so.

I see Terikan. Thank You.

I can take that "proof" and it makes perfect sense in a matrix-in-matrix theory...

The Oracle could be saying, you weren't ready to find out about the backup Matrix, but you did...now go deal with it.

She doesnt tell him its a backup matrix, but when did she ever tell him anything, she just let him figure things out on his own, make his own choices...

Now that he knows he can manipulate the "real world" , 2nd matrix, he goes and does just that.

Well, there's got to be more to it than that (even if it were the case) otherwise he could have saved trinity, been able to see more than just machines, etc.

Yeah i wish there was more to it than that but everything else i've heard is pretty much speculation as well.

But it's much better speculation :)

Originally posted by DarKSiDe_NyC
So many things still dont make sense...

There is really no point for Zion being around...its not there for the machines to obtain more humans....we see in M1 that the machines already have infants tubed in,they must have some form of creating humans. So the struggle with Zion seems pointless....the machines are already selfsustained....

On why Neo can't save Trinity the second time....maybe he hasn't realized that he is in another matrix yet.

OK first of all there is no second matrix, and secondly there is a point for zion, the architect in M2 talked of an equation, for the matrix.

The original matrix was a total paradise, yet a total failure. Humans needed a choice thats what the matrix is, even at the unconcience (sp?) level they have a choice. In came the Oricle, she found the equation to which 99.9% of the humans accepted the matrix where there were .1% which did not.

Zion is the remains of the people who did not accept the program, without a place to go these people (Neo, Trinity, Morpheus and all others able to jack in included) the system would have a catacalysmic crash just like the original.

So you see Zion is the key, and the machienes are destroying it because the population is growing too big.

sparty sparty,

This is always the case w/ these discussions here!!

Answering the "how" but not the "why".

We already know this.......what's your point?
No examples to back up your claim.......just stating what we already know.

Check out this thread for some more insight to this topic:

http://www.matrixmania.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8243&perpage=25&pagenumber=2

The only good speculation I've come across so far is Terikan's "bio-electricity" theory.

Ppl really need to start posting with some proof and examples from the movie.....and not just stating stuff we already know.

THIS IS THE LAST TIME I'M GOING TO SAY THIS.....AS I HAVE TO KEEP REPEATING THIS DAMN POINT IN EVERY THREAD I READ!!!!

Sorry had to get this out.....as there is just more and more "blog" being created on this forum now!!

-Supa

i was simply correcting darkside, i didnt mean to offend anyone but i wanted to clear the air and prove that zion has a purpose

So if Neo is accessing the machines through the source, that doesn't mean that he can also connect to the Smith program who is in Bane's body, because that isn't connected to the source. Smith is not connected to the source until Neo let's Smith absorb him (copy himself onto Neo) at the end. But the machines are connected to the source, and Neo is manipulating them (stopping them, making them explode, etc). That doesn't necessarily mean it's another matrix. This is all we have deduced so far, whether it's bioelectric or electromagnetic, or even bioelectromagnetic, we can't say for sure, but it does make sense.

i belive that it some how prepared neo for the source and alowed him to become more powerful witch may be why he didn't die in the crash.

Originally posted by sparty22687
i was simply correcting darkside, i didnt mean to offend anyone but i wanted to clear the air and prove that zion has a purpose


Sparty,

Although I was responding to your post, I meant that for most part who does this.

I don't mean to offend u either, and I as well as others certainly did not get offended by your post either I think.......there was nothing in there that would...... that I see at least!!

And with your post.....u didn't prove anything.....that's what I was trying to say. Give some examples or something.......know what I mean?

That's all!

-Supa

I was only stating that because what happend to neo happend for a reason just like the discusion between neo and smith in reloaded....it had a purpose thats all.




smith:whatever happend,happend for a reason.

neo:and what reason is that?

Straight from the architects mouth:
"The Architect - The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art, flawless, sublime. A triumph equaled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is as apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being, thus I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.

Neo - The Oracle.

The Architect - Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99.9% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level. While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo, those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probability of disaster.

Neo - This is about Zion.

The Architect - You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed. Its every living inhabitant terminated, its entire existence eradicated."

In short all the humans do not accept the matrix program, hence zion is populated, so in short there is a purpose for Zion to be there, so that the Matrix does not go the way of the original 2 programs. Happy with the examples?

Yup, you have the right idea.

TK, I wonder what color lipstick you are...but thats another whole thread in itself.

Sparty...you say ur correcting me by posting facts from the movie, but the fact that we are here is because the WBs left us with some uncertainty and it is being discussed, we all sw the movies, we all know the facts...everything here is just speculation. You DONT KNOW for a fact if what ur saying is fact. I dont know if what I am about to say means that Zion is another matrix, or anything else that 've said for that matter...but I ask because some uncertainty still remains.

Someone else made a good point about how Smith and Neo balance each other within the matrix....they are equations within the matrix, then he said that Zion was the balance for the Matrix....one software constuct balancing the other. The Architect said the 1st Matrix failed....because it was to perfect, they matrix we are shown in the movies appears to be pretty perfect also....the architect says something of the sort that humans are imperfect, chaotic, they dont conform with what they are given....so what if the ZION MATRIX was created to balance the perfection of the MATRIX.

Another thing that baffles me is how easy it is for the Zionist to recover humans from "the fields" , we see this as Neo flies to machine city....absolutely no security as the fly by....meanwhile we see Sentinels constantly patrol the Zion perimeter and deployed through the old passage ways like the one Naobi flew through in M3.

WHy would the machines make it so easy for Zionists to recover the unplugged; unless that was the equation balancing itself...allowing the unplugged to beleive they were saved.


Discuss.

If you remember from M1 the ships did not go and pluck the people from their cocuns, the "unplugged" were washed down some sort of sewage pipe. Also the "Zionists" did not go around unplugging people at random, for these people that were unplugged they were the .1% of the people that did not accept the program in which i talked about earlier.

Also as for the idea that Zion is another Matrix, these people that dont accept the program are able to do extradordinary things in the Matrix, but have all the human physical properties in the real world. Because all the rules in a program can be bent or broken all would have some sort of "power" in the real world and not just Neo. These reasons would almost completely rule out the idea of Zion being a 2nd matrix

To support Sparty....since that other poster has no idea what he's speaking of: here should be the final straw so to speak. But before I get into this...let me acknowledge this quote:

Originally posted by DarKSiDe_NyC
....the architect says something of the sort that humans are imperfect, chaotic, they dont conform with what they are given....so what if the ZION MATRIX was created to balance the perfection of the MATRIX.

Dark Dark Dark...you must understand that there is no need balance the matrix with anything. The matrix was created so machines could control the humans through a false reality, this .1%, as Sparty aptly put, is an exception...an elite class if you would call it that. They got out of this dream and now knowing the truth are trying to stop the bondage. So Zion isn't a creation of the machines to balance or "backup" the matrix, it's created by the humans as a sort of shelter where they can be safe....or at least feel that way (heh heh...).

Now on to the other crap. The Oracle said...straight to Neo in Revolutions...The power of The One extends far past the boundaries of the matrix. It extends back to it's source, that being the source itself. Now kiddies...where is the source located? That's right...say it together: THE REAL WORLD. Technically, going strictly by what the Oracle said, Neo's abilities extend all the way back to the source, which fully explains why he can do what he does in the real world. What's questionable is the amount of power that is behind these abilities in the real world...but I think I have a somewhate adequate solution to the preceding as well.

By the Oracle saying that his powers extend to the source, this means Neo has powers in the real world (I am aware of this reiteration). As anyone who saw Revolutions witnessed, Neo's abilities in the real world differ greatly from those of the matrix, but yet he has some very handy ones. This is because the matrix is a "dream" essentially, and by the freed, or .1%, understanding this truth (there is no spoon), they are able to manipulate the matrix accomplishing the so called impossible. Neo is gifted in that he can manipulate it the most, now let's get on to a subject we don't know (that was for Dark there).

If Zion was in some twisted and deranged way a matrix...the machines would have no way to control this matrix because they would indeed be inside of it. As we know, the machines control the matrix from the real world and only introduce programs into it. So oh great Dark one...let me know when you figure out how the machines could possibly control this Zion matrix from the inside of it cause I've gotta tell ya - I'm dying to hear it. Until then I must say adieu and good bye.

Lucky for the Zionist those sewage pipes lead all the way back to Zion.

Good first post for a n00b :P , well thought out and what you say makes sense to me, but i'm still not 100% percent tho on the single matrix theory. And yes...its still theory.

I'll think more about this later, i'll reply from work tomm.


Later.

Also something to factor in...(*a good friend of mine pointed this one out to me):

Let's pretend for a second that the second matrix theory is true (because it is indeed a theory ;)). What would be the point of programming the sky to have a sun beyond the clouds...also, it would basically rob Revolutions of all real significance. The scene in which Neo and Trinity venture above the storm systems into the beautiful view of the actual sun and sky...would be utterly pointless.

Plus, there would be no point in having the original matrix because there's no point for the humans to exist. All the power from the machines would come from outside of the "second matrix". Think of the matrix as a program...the power has to come from somewhere (i.e. the real world). The actual world would hold the power to the second matrix...therefore taking the purpose of the original matrix (I like that whole purpose thing there...) and essentially creating a paradox in that...there would be no need for any matrix at all.

The machines in the second matrix would have no reason to harvest the humans because they would not need power from them...since they would be getting it from the actual world. You don't see the agents harvesting the humans in the actual matrix...do you? That's just my thoughts...post on!

*Enter good friend \/

Hmmm.....You have a good point there the TheOne....it would seem to be the exact thing I would say....oh what, thats what I did say.....teach me to sit next to you and talk about the matrix..........
Ok, anyways, TheOne does bring up some good points, and several of his own, but the entire double Matrix theory creates a paradox. The first matrix (The stuff witch Oracle and Smith) is powered by teh mahine world, not by harvesting humans in that matrix. SO it would hold to theory that if that matrix is powered by teh machine world, then if the machine world is a second matrix, it too would powered by a higher position in the chain of matrixs. if you make a program, the program is powered by the computer, not by the the program itself. Same with the matrix. There would be no need to harvest humans for the machines, because the machines would be powered by the real world, an dthen there would be no reason for humans, because the machines don't need to use them for power, so there is no point of the matrix, so there is really no point for any matrixs....which leads you into a circle of logically it would never be done. The only reason I could see of the matrix's purpose then would be entertainment(a la "The Thirteenth Floor")

the second matrix could be powered by anything because it's not within the same world. There's no paradox.

Then whats the need for HUMANS at all in the real world...the machines appear to be self sustained as we see in M1, they are able to reproduce humans ( we see an infant in the description of the fields)

Zion is supposed to be the last remaining human city of the real world. Any human released at this point (whatever >1%) should be destroyed and not allowed any chance at survival.

We see in M3 that the sentinels are able to easily wipe out Zion, so once that is done...the machines can go on with their own business without having any free humans lying around.

I guess this is where most of my doubt comes from.

But you make a goood point, the sky above the electric storm in M3 does serve a purpose, but why even program an sky in the Matrix....most humans plugged in have never seen the real world anyway...they wouldnt know what a sky is.

Never said it doesn't have problems, but it doesn't have inherent contradictions and neither is it a paradox.

the one and his "shadow" ;)

Good points!!

That indeed would not make great stories, but becuase of some of the uncertanties, I still cling on to the MWAM theory or even something radical!

Why even bother with these measely .1% that reject the Matrix and cuase a major disturbance! How easy is it for the machines to kill their brains while jacked in!

The machines and their AI programs thinking:
"No.....let's set the rejects free so that they can pose even a greater danger directly to the source and manipulate the Matrix."
Right?

So u c.....there are things that still don't add up or make sense.
None of the humans in the Matrix are going to notice really that a few hundred humans are missing/dead. (Just like in the real world....ppl missing, in comas, or die either of natural or otherwise inflicted causes). And certianly the machines are not going to care if they lose a few crops here and there (as the Architecture puts it in M2....."there's a lowest point we are willing to go to for our survival" ---- something to that effect (that was top off my head). Just think of how many humans are killed in trying to contain this "one" or anamoly..........ppl being shot left and right....blown up.....or taken over by Agents.

-Supa

Can anyone give a straight answer to it?

The one (no pun intended :D) thing that I can say is that the machines have no use for humans in the real world. That is why they tried to destroy Zion...as for the whole.1% that gets out...They are flushed down that sewer line to their death, as we saw with Neo. The only way they survive is if there is a ship to pull them out.

If you're wondering about how the first of them got out...the answer lies within M1 when Morpheus speaks of the first man inside the matrix. Let's see if I really do know the movie by heart:

Morpheus: When the matrix was first created there was a man born inside who could change whatever he wanted......
........It was he who freed the first of us, taught us the truth.

Something to that effect. Also, humans created the machines and didn't have anything against them until the sky was scorched. If we didn't scorch the sky, the machines wouldn't have begun harvesting us (I act as if I'm in the movie) and nothing bad would've happened.

As to your comment about the lack of need for humans, that is preciseley right under your theory. If there was a second matrix outside of the original, there would be no need for anything including man and machine. When you think about it, if there was a second matrix...there would be no need for any of the movies to exist at all. Machines wouldn't need to harvest humans because the whole harvesting process would essentially not exist because inside a matrix ("dream world").

To look at this from a programmer's view since I am a computer science programmer, I must say that programs aren't created to gaurd against every little happening that may occur. So, if I created a program like the matrix, as soon as I saw that 99.9% of humans would accept it as long as they were given a choice at the unconscience level, I wouldn't worry about that .1% in the slightest. Hell, if I can get a program to work for over 90% of the time I'm happy. Plus, the machines wouldn't consider the chance that humans would get out...they would just worry about the task they have. That task being either to harvest humans, search and destroy, etc. The machines didn't count on humans get out, it was a most definite afterthought. The architect didn't realize the anamoly was inherent to the coding of the matrix until the first anamoly was born after the creation of the first matrix. Plus the anamoly is necessary for the matrix's and the machines survival...this gets into my theory on it so bare with me if you will.

The Oracle was certain that everything that happened was going to happen because it had happened before...5 times (I think....or 6? I think 5). The Architect mentioned the preceding as well...but we know now that the Oracle was NOT sure of what was going to happen after Smith started running things because it had never happened before.

Seraph: Did you always know?

Oracle: No, but I believed.

What I'm saying is, everything that happened right up to when Neo met the architect had happened before. I would venture a guess to say exactly the same way...or damn well close to it. Once the One reached the architect, he would go to the door on the right and reload the matrix resetting all data to its originality. So, ergo (hey look everyone, I'm as cool as the architect...) every previous instance of Smith was reset because of the reloading process. The difference here is that Neo was in love and chose to save Trinity, you know....that old chestnut. Since no One was in love before, the choice seemed obvious to them to reload the matrix but Neo wouldn't let Trin die.

Now, by Neo not reloading the matrix...he did not reset the instance of Smith. So, Smith was given the time to overpopulate the matrix with clones of himself until he was essentially the only person there (or millions of him...) because he still had that ability. Smith only did this so that he could destroy Neo...that was his purpose all along. Ever since the first matrix was made...the "Smiths" of that particular version possessed the purpose of destroying the anamoly (when the machines discovered there was an anamoly they, they being the architect, had to create a balancer to the equation...enter agents....in particular: Smith).

Neo: Smith............what is he?

Oracle: He is you. He is your opposite, your negative. The result of the equation trying to balance itself out.

What I'm saying is...every instance of Smith had the same power the Smith we've grown to love (or hate) had (cloning) and they all would've used those powers to destroy the anamolies if the matrix wasn't reloaded....but, since Neo didn't reload the matrix, Smith was able to reach the potential of his abilities and hence the Superbrawl. Now, to actually relate this to what we're talking about.

The machines never destroyed the humans before because the anamoly would reload the matrix...and the anamoly being human, had to stay alive so the machines wouldn't have to destroy the matrix to kill Smith...thus losing millions of humans/energy generators. Now, when the one didn't reload the matrix....the machines got pissed (did you see the look on the Architect's face when Neo was going through the door on the left.....he redefined the acronym PMS). So they decided that they were really going to destroy Zion. That is when Neo looked inside himself to realize he must go to Zero One (Machine City).

When Neo got to Dues Ex Machina, the machine realized the promise in having Neo fight Smith...and herein lies where most theories differ....and my stopping point for now. But that is why I think the machines didn't destroy the escaped humans....other than the fact that they didn't initally realize they got out. I realize that's a lot to take in and many questions could arise from this...so please ask away because I know I didn't explain everything to an adequate level of understanding. I look forward to all of your next posts.

Originally posted by TheOne8742

The machines never destroyed the humans before because the anamoly would reload the matrix...and the anamoly being human, had to stay alive so the machines wouldn't have to destroy the matrix to kill Smith...thus losing millions of humans/energy generators. Now, when the one didn't reload the matrix....the machines got pissed (did you see the look on the Architect's face when Neo was going through the door on the left.....he redefined the acronym PMS). So they decided that they were really going to destroy Zion. That is when Neo looked inside himself to realize he must go to Zero One (Machine City).

When Neo got to Dues Ex Machina, the machine realized the promise in having Neo fight Smith...and herein lies where most theories differ....and my stopping point for now. But that is why I think the machines didn't destroy the escaped humans....other than the fact that they didn't initally realize they got out. I realize that's a lot to take in and many questions could arise from this...so please ask away because I know I didn't explain everything to an adequate level of understanding. I look forward to all of your next posts.

I agree, but if the machines never allowed the anamoly to exist then they could destroy Zion at will, without the fear of all those plugged in being destroyed.

From M1, Morpheus tells us the machines take the dead? and feed them intraveineously to the living. This should be done with all humans released from the matrix...why allow some of them to be flushed down a sewage pipe....they would make for a pretty good meal. Like you said tho, possible the machines never realized it, but come on, how advaanced are they, there should be some sort of flag / checksum in place to check for that.

By doing this, the machines would have to worry less of the anamoly returning to the matrix/source and causing a reload....because there would be no anamoly.

As for Smith, there would be no purpose for him and he would pose no risk in destroying the Matrix.

Thats all for now, other than that...single matrix theory, take the Matrix for what it is...a great first story gone OK.

Yup.....I agree with darkside!

As I am more and more leaning towards (not coninced though) of the single matrix theory now...... just like u said 8742, there would be no point in making the movies.

That would be the only reason for me to stick w/ the single matrix theory.

I still like the trilogies though.....but ya......that is why M1 will be the best out of them for me.

I guess the WBs didn't expect the audience to look into it this deeply or didn't think about some of the storyline ideas ( An inherent fault of human nature....lol). Or things will still unfold from other things in coming......comics, etc.

I think its safe to say that this would be the end of this discussion. I could go w/ the single matrix just cause the movies exist......lol.

Now this was a great discussion.....thanks everyone.....hope u join us next time!!

8742.....and shadow...forgot to welcome u.... :) ......great insights.....looking forward to your posts!


What's next on the platter?

Originally posted by DarKSiDe_NyC
I agree, but if the machines never allowed the anamoly to exist then they could destroy Zion at will, without the fear of all those plugged in being destroyed.

When the Architect stated that the One is inherent to the coding of the matrix...it meant that there is no way for the matrix to exist without an anamoly. The anamoly is simply a person who understands the most that the matrix is not real...and that is why he can manipulate it. So, with the method they used to create the matrix...there is no way that a anamoly could not exist.

Originally posted by DarkSiDe_NyC
From M1, Morpheus tells us the machines take the dead? and feed them intraveineously to the living. This should be done with all humans released from the matrix...why allow some of them to be flushed down a sewage pipe....they would make for a pretty good meal. Like you said tho, possible the machines never realized it, but come on, how advaanced are they, there should be some sort of flag / checksum in place to check for that.

Well, in response to this...let me look at it from a programmer's viewpoint once again. Programs work in divided "components" to simplify it. Most of the time, one component is only aware of what it should be doing...not what the others are. So, when the human that rejected the matrix is shot down that sewer pipe...the machines assume that they will die like they are supposed to. They aren't assuming that a ship will come and pick that person up. So they never know the better if the human lives or dies...frankly they don't care. They are doing what they are supposed to and that is all that matters to them.

Also, I think that the few million people that die from cancer, small pox, or getting hit by a bus in the matrix can suffice for the one or two people lost from rejecting the matrix every 6 months or so. A small price to pay if you ask any programmer.

Superman..You say, "None of the humans in the Matrix are going to notice really that a few hundred humans are missing/dead." Do you know how many people are in the matrix? Since the Matrix is the population of the world it would be more than a few hundred people that die or go missing. .1% of 1 billion is 1 Million.

TheOne you said, "If you're wondering about how the first of them got out...the answer lies within M1 when Morpheus speaks of the first man inside the matrix." We find out later in M2 that this is a lie. The first to be freed are the 23 that the anomaly selects after returning to the source.

Also you stated. "Also, humans created the machines and didn't have anything against them until the sky was scorched" There was a war before humans scorched the sky thinking the machines couldn't survive without solar power. Thats why the machines started using humans for power.

Darkside you say, "I agree, but if the machines never allowed the anamoly to exist then they could destroy Zion at will, without the fear of all those plugged in being destroyed." If the machines could stop the anomly I'm sure they would but they can't because it is just that...An anomaly. The anomaly, created because of the "illogical" human mind, goes against the rules and equations that the machines understand so they can't just stop it. Out of the billions of "crops" they have how are they going to know which one is the anomaly? The best way to know is to create a scenerio that leads him (or her) straight to the source.

Also you said, "From M1, Morpheus tells us the machines take the dead? and feed them intraveineously to the living. This should be done with all humans released from the matrix...why allow some of them to be flushed down a sewage pipe". How do you know that sewage pipe was not the beginning stages of the liquidfication process? Nothing in the movie suggest that the machines were simply discarding Neo.

jussme,

Excellent observations!!

As for my part, I meant it in the context that why even let analomies go "free" like that since there are humans dying all the time in the Matrix anyway.......however many there are!

But you provide good explanation for that as we really don't know that the anamolies are being "set free". It could be very well that its a starting process of the feeding, whereby 8742's thoughts come into play of the ships saving these anamolies.

So we know that anamolies cannot be contained, and thus the whole prophecy "play" to weed them out to bring them back to the source.

Great....back to square one!!

BTW.....jussme.....which theory is your support? Single Matrix or possibly another Matrix?

U were unclear on that thought. :)

Its not over.......just yet...hehe!!

I don't believe in the MIM theory. I believe they (the brothers)wanted you to think that at the end of M2, but I think Zion and all is the real world. Also, I don't believe in the phonebooth theory.

Yes jussme...I am thoroughly impressed. You discovered my two uncertainties and exploited them...and for that I commend you.

Originally Posted by itsjussme I don't believe in the MIM theory. I believe they (the brothers)wanted you to think that at the end of M2, but I think Zion and all is the real world. Also, I don't believe in the phonebooth theory.

I agree entirely about the MIM theory...and I was quick to agree with the phonebooth theory but you have to admit...it does make you wonder. The possibility of it being true is too great for me to decide, it is superbly crafted in my opinion. Is there a discussion forum on that...cause I'd love to check that out. Maybe I'll do some searching.......great posts all! I'm surprised no one countered my personal theory. Maybe it is yet to come...

Originally posted by DarKSiDe_NyC
Then whats the need for HUMANS at all in the real world...the machines appear to be self sustained as we see in M1, they are able to reproduce humans ( we see an infant in the description of the fields)

Going back to this point, there is a complete need for humans in the real world, the Matrix is created to contain the humans in vast fields, we all know this, but the thing that most people missed was that the machines NEED Neo to go back to the source.

I have a theory that in M1 Neo was killed and brought back to life beacuase the matrix did not let his mind die, because as the Architect points out in M2:
"The Architect - The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female, 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.

Neo - You won't let it happen, you can't. You need human beings to survive.

The Architect - There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept. However, the relevant issue is whether or not you are ready to accept the responsibility for the death of every human being in this world."

in plain english Neo has a code inserted into his "digital self" (if you remember from Merpheus' speech in M1) and if this code is not inserted into the matrix source then the whole system crashes and along with the destruction of Zion will wipe out the entire human race

So without the Matrix the system would crash, humans would perish, and the machines would be brought to almost nothing because of there ability to "accept alternate levels of survival"

Once again Darkside you need to do your homework before posting with me and TheOne8742

Originally posted by Anomolous
Supaman, remember that not everyone that is unplugged and then jacked in to the Matrix has abilities like Trinity, Morpheus, or Neo. No one else displayed any exceptional abilities besides these three.

Yes, Ghost, Niobe, and most of the freed humans did.


Every day in OUR WORLD, millions of people die, and millions are born, I don't think it's much different in the Matrix. The dead go on to feed the living. Which is probably degrading their minds through the centuries, cannabalism always does, but that's not what I'm getting at. Zion is contained by sentinels in the real world, so there's no immediate need for any programs to deal with it. It stays hidden underground and eventually is penetrated at the right time and destroyed (the inhabitants anyway). So it is a failsafe for the Matrix, Architect thinks to himself, "I don't care where you go, but you can't stay here" to the 1% who rejects the Matrix. Bye bye, 1%. So they go to Zion and all is well in Matrixville. This isn't the point of the thread, let's get back on topic...

How does the energy from the sentinal pass through Neo, and what is Neo's connection to the sentinel?

Yes all, you have to understand that the special abilities don't come from any special gift or ability...it's just a realization that the matrix does not exist...and that everything that is happening in the matrix is controlled by your mind. If you're having a dream...and you're conscience of the fact that you're indeed in a dream, you can control whatever you want (don't argue with me...I've done it). Try it sometime, when you're in the middle of a dream, just try and realize in your mind that it is a dream and you'll be able to do some pretty sweet stuff. As absurd as it may sound on text...try it in practice and you'll understand what I'm saying.

Not true, mister don't-argue-with-me. Every time I've realized I was in a dream, the dream ended. I think you are daydreaming. Which isn't really dreaming, because you aren't even asleep :P

TheOne8742, I also have to say that is not true. I have said this at least two times on other forums here, when I'm falling in my dreams I realize that it is a dream and that I will not get hurt, but for some reason I still can't STOP the falling. That's just me, but if you can do anything you want in your dreams then you must feel very in control of your life or something...

Originally posted by Terikan
Not true, mister don't-argue-with-me. Every time I've realized I was in a dream, the dream ended. I think you are daydreaming. Which isn't really dreaming, because you aren't even asleep :P


LOL! That's what I say as well.

8742, u have some great posts and then u go on and post something like that!

I don't think u can tap into your dreams like that, which is what Terikan is saying. There's a difference. U must be daydreaming/thinking and not actually dreaming!

Also...if u relaized that u were in a dream, then your consience has taken over and at that point u're not in a dream anymore. Just remembering your dream and thinking on it!

Anyway.....your point would be invalid here, as it cannot be proved.....lol!

Mmmhmmm....alright fellas. Well then how did I do it? You can't argue with what happened to me...but nice try anyway. I was just trying to prove a point, no need to tell me what I have and haven't done in my life. Since you guys know though....then you would understand right? Oh wait, you don't know...that's right. Well I apologize for telling you the wrong thing that happened to myself...since I don't know (sadness...).

Supaman, I agree on it's invalid nature because of it's inability to be proven and I apologize for saying that, even though it DID happen. Regardless, can't we focus on what this thread is about. No one has given an answer that is sufficient...WHAT IS WITH THAT DAMN SENTINEL?!

Oh Terikan... by the way: don't you have some more pointless flaming to do? Maybe you should take care of that...

Originally posted by TheOne8742
No one has given an answer that is sufficient...WHAT IS WITH THAT DAMN SENTINEL?!


No one has that correct answer........ only the Wb know the true reason... specualtion is what we are here do discuss.

The best theroy that i have read is that the blue light that is moving through Neo is the electro magnetic energy from the disabled sentinal and the reason that he was in so much pain from it was because he was feeling it as a human and from the source that he is still conected to.

Cue the n00b bashing but i completely agree with 8742, i've done it myself, and it's a well known phenomenom. (sorry i'm not trying to cause arguments) It's called lucid dreaming.

It's basically what 8742 said in certain words : being completely conscious of the fact that your in a dream and being able to control anything in it.

It could be likened to being in your own computer game and changing whatever you want as you go through the levels, no rules.

Valasher and Terikan there are ways of training your minds so you can do this yourself.

It doesn't come often at all for me though, i can be flying around in a dream one night and the next trying to run away from someone and be stuck in the same spot.

Sometimes i'm conscious and i can do this, 99 times out of 100 i can't.

Originally posted by supaman
Why even bother with these measely .1% that reject the Matrix and cuase a major disturbance! How easy is it for the machines to kill their brains while jacked in!

The machines and their AI programs thinking:
"No.....let's set the rejects free so that they can pose even a greater danger directly to the source and manipulate the Matrix."
Right?

First of all Supa... if that is your real name LOL..... the machines are not setting anyone free... they are taking them off of their cords to proccess them into energy after they have "woken up" from the matrix.

And for your 2nd point if you remember from M1 (i dont know if all of this true information from TheOne and I has fried your brain so you have a short term memory) Agent Smith had no point to kill Neo... he was trying to get Neo to rat out Morpheus.

Here is the logic..... why kill the one shot you have in getting to the leader of a ship which holds the access codes to the core and ultimately if the machines can get to the access codes to the ship that leads into the gates of Zion

So do you see why it would be unwise to just go around killing everyone they suspected of rejecting the martix? Now that would be counter productive.......

Woah, yeah, about that sentinel, it doesn't blow up!

I've just seen it again about two hours ago, and the sentinel seems to hover in front of Neo and then just pass right through him without hitting the ship OR blowing up! Neo doesn't even do anything to it.

I have absolutely no explanation for this at all now. Consider all of my previous views on this matter worthless.

i never said that the sentinal blows up, it is somehow diabled that is what i was saying

Sorry you might have got me wrong here, i'm sure if you go back in this thread I said it blew up, i was correcting myself, not saying you was wrong. I don't even think it was disabled though, when i saw it tonight it looked like it just flew at him without damaging itself at all. A complete mystery.

Well, thanks for telling us Eon, now we're back to square one, lol. I got nothin...

Yes yes, it is quite a pickle...no doubt about it (ok ok...I'll stop). This is the one thing in these three movies where you bust your brain like crazy to figure it out but you just can't...a true mystery indeed.

I have not noticed this blue light you are speaking of...I just know that the sentinel is orange because we're supposedly looking through Neo's source vision. I have many doubts that that will assist any of you, but oh well.

Thank you Eon by the way...you guys (not you Eon) shouldn't treat "n00bs" without respect...especially when they know what they're talking about (i.e. me, Sparty, Shadow...etc). I have found (not to pick on you Terikan...but I'm about to) that some of Terikan's most recent posts have involved nothing considerable...just one sentence or phrase. Congrats on writing "The Matrix Explained 1.0"...great job typing that much, now: GET OVER IT. And nice thoughts with the phone booth theory (I must admit, that is a very unique and interesting theory...I'm being serious, no sarcasm), even though it is not correct. At least I actually take the time to think about my responses before I send them....and at least I know how to spell "what"...

Anyway, to get back on track: once again I support Sparty. Smith never had intentions of killing Neo in the beginning because:
1) He wasn't aware of what exactly he was (the anomaly).
2) Smith believe Morpheus was the answer (as Sparty said).
3) He hadn't "knuckled up" to his purpose, so to speak. Smith was only able to gain his abilities when Neo copied his code onto him, not to mention so that the equation could be balanced. The real reason Smith probably killed Neo was: well, he was in his way for one. He was also the last one of the three (Neo, Trin, Morpheus) to be in the matrix at that time....and since Morpheus had got away, that "certain satisfaction" could only be obtained by killing Neo. Plus Neo gave him the finger...that's gotta leave a mark (.....ok, fine). Just some extra points to back up my bud Sparty on this one.

Originally posted by Valasher
Well, thanks for telling us Eon, now we're back to square one, lol. I got nothin...

Ha, thats ok. It annoyed me when i saw it, instead of being able to explain it better it just left me more confused than ever.

TheOne, you are a newbie, not a n00b, there's a difference. You are the non spamming, intelligent kind. And as for Terikan not posting much these days, it's pretty sad. Debates aren't the same without him.

Eon, I'm sure that if this debate dies right here and right now, it will all come back when Revolutions is on DVD (which according to smith_fan won't be too long).

Well of course it will come back. Since no one wants to go and pay $7.50 to analyze just one portion of this entire movie...their not going to get the luxury of seeing it over and over again to derive some type of theory. I myself have to go on the first 3 times...the first being unspeakbly confused. The second, actually trying to pay attention but still missing any true meaning behind it...and the third just staring as hard as I could at the screen trying to make some sense out of this blessed scene and faling again. For the sake of us.....the WB's will have commentary on RL and RV and we'll hear what they have to say. If not...may God have mercy on us...

Ok.....first of all sorry to everyone who got offended by my post(s). There's always a certain type of firing going on in these type of disucssions and I never take anything personally. I say.....don't dish anything if u can't take it!

And no comments on the "dreaming issue". There's no way of debating that.

Sooo.....

8742.....No need to apologize for anything. U're just putting out your thoughts...but sorry for my sarcasm!
(And u saw the movie 3 x......cool!! :p)

Sparty......What does this mean?: "First of all Supa... if that is your real name LOL". Sorry.....but I don't get the humor....and sorry to be so blunt.....but its a "username" and uhhh....no its not my real name. And if u read my other posts after.....we already cleared up what u were trying to say.

Eon.......Thanks for your observations! I still had doubts about that scene as I have only seen Rev only once! I defintely want to check out the movie again......but your post refreshes this topic ...as I justified that scene so far w/ Terikan's theory of "bio-electricity".

And yes......let's get on w/ this topic!
Hopefully we can come up w/ something before WBs give us any answers.......that's if they do ;).

Yeah, so what is up with that crazy sentinel anyway? Does anyone have any ideas?

It was just givin neo a hug, to show him that peace was the answer.

Let the cycle continue...

oh, and I'm sorry that I only post a sentence or two at a time. I'm just trying to keep things fair.

I think it's the purpose and the intention of the sentinel to go in there, that it is trying to do, what Neo can see. However I don't know whether someone else has posted this before.. Just to many posts. And I'm too damn lazy

Originally posted by HomoUniversalis
I think it's the purpose and the intention of the sentinel to go in there, that it is trying to do, what Neo can see. However I don't know whether someone else has posted this before.. Just to many posts. And I'm too damn lazy

Can someone explain this to me..........in English...lol!
Sorry....I can't make sense of this Homo.

He's saying that maybe neo doesn't see an aura or location info from the source in regards to the machines, but instead, he sees what they intend to do, their goals or something? It's an interesting idea, but the ground to support or refute it isn't explored in the movie enough.

Originally posted by TheOne8742
...Try it sometime, when you're in the middle of a dream, just try and realize in your mind that it is a dream and you'll be able to do some pretty sweet stuff. As absurd as it may sound on text...try it in practice and you'll understand what I'm saying.

I realized that I could do that about 15years ago. I cant control what I dream, but I have complete control of what I do in my dreams... I never heard of anyone else being able to do that until now... I guess that is why I like to sleep alot!!!
I guess that we are anamolies...haha

back to the sentinal... I believe that Neo could see what the intentions(soul) of the machine's program was and that when he destroyed the machine, its "ghost", electronic signature, digital DNA, etc., was still trying to (terminate)connect to Neo. This is why he could see it, and feel it... because he is a part of them, and they are a part of him.

As for him moving back in his seat....what happens when you are in your car and something pulls out in front of you... You lean back...( and curse)
just my thought...

Sounds like the best thing i've heard so far.

I know someone who has a lot of lucid dreams aswell, i just wanna learn how to do it myself!

I have them a few times a year. But in all the dreams when i wake up and can't remember what i've dreamt i might of been doing it then, i don't know though. This might even be the same for people who don't even think they can do it, they might do, but they just can't remember it.

Originally posted by Eon dreamhacker
Sounds like the best thing i've heard so far.

I know someone who has a lot of lucid dreams aswell, i just wanna learn how to do it myself!

I have them a few times a year. But in all the dreams when i wake up and can't remember what i've dreamt i might of been doing it then, i don't know though. This might even be the same for people who don't even think they can do it, they might do, but they just can't remember it.

Sometimes it is a curse... When the dreams are so real, that you cant tell the difference, and you believe them yourself to be true. For example... dreaming about a girl you know and in the dream you carry on a conversation, and then the next time you see her you ask her something related to the conversation you had in the dream and she looks at you really weird. Just imagine what else... but overall it is pretty cool

Yes yes, lucid dreaming is indeed a very fascinating occurence. I'm just glad the both of you proved I'm not insane!

As for your theory.....it is very similar to what others have been telling me, but it is the most nicely worded I must say. As I said before, let's hope the Wachowski's explain it, or maybe it will be explained in The Art of the Matrix Reloaded & Revolutions (yes they're making a book. I believe that both movies will only be one book but I could be mistaken on that one).

As for now, I encourage you all to check out the "Smith is really a girl?" post....it may seem absurd now, but you'll all realize Shadow and my point behind it soon.