What came first? ZIon or Matrix?

I just read the brilliant explanation of Terikan, an although i really liked it, i found something, in my opinion, maybe wrong early on it.
Zion cannot be an answer to the problem of the one because that would mean that everyone on it would have plugs, and there is some people that don't , like Tank and Dozer, rmember? a 100% pure human, old fashioned and stuff?. Also in the animatrix, second renassaince to be more precise, it clearly shows that some humans survived, not everyone was killed, so i think it's more likely that Zion was build by the human survivors. Also, Zion is a really big and complex city, so i think it's more likely that many people, not just a bunch, build it in the first place. Machines are just using it to their advantage.

yes, if you remember in M1 morpheus said that when the matrix was created there was a man born inside. and that this man freed the first of the matrix people. so there for meaning before the man born inside the matrix freed thoughs people there was know zion. so the matrix came first.

I'm gonna hafta say zion came first. In m1 morpheus said that we scorched out the sun. Without the sun they had to go underground (tank sais "deep underground, by the core, where its still warm"). So as the thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands, zion is huge) built zion, the machines were figuring out how to find energy ("they had all the energy they needed). So perhaps the question is not which came first, perhaps the question is Who was done first? The humans building zion? or the vast programming, harnessing, and implemation of the matrix. I say the humans got done first. But it is also possible that matrix was first. Tank said "the last human city"... Perhaps they had other cities underground, but not zion yet. Stuff to ponder I suppose! And perhaps the man born inside freed the first of them, but thats people from the matrix, there were still humans (people with no holes is proof of that). He sais "freed the FIRST of us" referring to himself (morpheus). Some of the counsellors have holes and they're twice his age.... further evidence perhaps zion came first.

Originally posted by superman_0351
I'm gonna hafta say zion came first. In m1 morpheus said that we scorched out the sun. Without the sun they had to go underground (tank sais "deep underground, by the core, where its still warm"). So as the thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands, zion is huge) built zion, the machines were figuring out how to find energy ("they had all the energy they needed). So perhaps the question is not which came first, perhaps the question is Who was done first? The humans building zion? or the vast programming, harnessing, and implemation of the matrix. I say the humans got done first. But it is also possible that matrix was first. Tank said "the last human city"... Perhaps they had other cities underground, but not zion yet. Stuff to ponder I suppose! And perhaps the man born inside freed the first of them, but thats people from the matrix, there were still humans (people with no holes is proof of that). He sais "freed the FIRST of us" referring to himself (morpheus). Some of the counsellors have holes and they're twice his age.... further evidence perhaps zion came first.

Yes that is perfect evidence that Zion came first

Lol well, I don't know if it's completely infaulable but thanks Smith :)

Originally posted by theonealmighty
yes, if you remember in M1 morpheus said that when the matrix was created there was a man born inside. and that this man freed the first of the matrix people. so there for meaning before the man born inside the matrix freed thoughs people there was know zion. so the matrix came first.

If you think about it "what was the purpose of Neo once he took the door on his right and completed his purpose?" to select 16 females and 7 males to repopulate Zion.... maybe the man born inside the matrix? That is my theory that the previous One before Neo is this man that they say was born inside of it... because that is all the humans know that there has only been one of THE ONE not 5 of them before Neo

I don't understand your reasoning...


-Helix-

Zion.

Sparty, have you not seen the movies?! How could you say, "because that is all the humans know that there has only been one of THE ONE not 5 of them before Neo". We know that there have been 5 others, there is no evidence, except what the humans 'know', that there was only 1 other 'one'. The humans had the prophecy wrong in the first place, why couldn't this just be another detail they are wrong in?

Do you have any support for your theory at all?

-HeLiX-

This is the chicken and the egg question. But I like what superman_0351 had to say. What I want to know is who the other 5 were. Another incarnation of Neo? Or someone else. Another thing I don't think Morpheus was the first one freed, but maybe. There had to be people freed from The Matrix that reproduced and had children without plugs. Who knows? My brain hurts from thinking too much about all of this. Yes, I know the brain can't feel pain, but whatever...

Another thing to consider is this:

The matrix is a program. A huge program filled with millions of other programs. It is fed into the brain via electrical impulses. I think there is no way to dispute the fact that the matrix requires power/electricity/whatever. So the Real world could not be a matrix because of one simple fact. EMPs.

They could be virutal EMPs.

Agreed, I just offered it as a point to consider given the nature of the thread. Virtual EMPs... not bad thinking. But I still say Zion :)

Yep, I definetly agree Zion. It was built before the Matrix, but I think that the part where people live now, underground, was built after the Matrix, when it was dangerous to be near the surface.

wow, there are people answering to my post, cool, i thought nobody did

Originally posted by Helix
Yep, I definetly agree Zion. It was built before the Matrix, but I think that the part where people live now, underground, was built after the Matrix, when it was dangerous to be near the surface.

Nice point. It could almost make one wonder if maybe zion was moved (im dunno how maybe in pieces, maybe it was mechanical nobody could ever know that) but it seems like an interesting question to pose.

If you think about it Those little holes would not be genetic...So if you have kids in ZION you would not haver the holes...makeing you 100% Pure human

Dude, have you actaully watched ANY of the movies?!?!? They cover that in the first one!

Originally posted by ernapo

Zion cannot be an answer to the problem of the one because that would mean that everyone on it would have plugs, and there is some people that don't , like Tank and Dozer, rmember? a 100% pure human, old fashioned and stuff?. Also in the animatrix, second renassaince to be more precise, it clearly shows that some humans survived, not everyone was killed, so i think it's more likely that Zion was build by the human survivors.

Tank and dozer don't have plugs, as they are the sons of either zion born parents, or pod born parents. even if their parents were pod born, they would not have the plugs themselves, cos their not biological plugs, their metal.

i think that in the second renassaince it says that the machines dispensed misery upon the ENTIRE human race. i dont think that a few humans (as in a couple of hundred, maybe) could escape the machines notice to go and build zion, they would go and track them down and plug them into the matrix.

So the matrix came first.

At first I had siad that I thought Zion had existed before the Matrix, but now I'm leaning towards Matrix first because I was thinking, how are Zionists (lol) able to plug into the matrix?? With technology that the machines must have made, because its there program. So, I think the matrix was made first, and then the machines built Zion for the humans, and altered the memory of some humans to think that humans built Zion, and put them in Zion...

What you think?

Originally posted by superman_0351
I'm gonna hafta say zion came first. In m1 morpheus said that we scorched out the sun. Without the sun they had to go underground (tank sais "deep underground, by the core, where its still warm"). So as the thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands, zion is huge) built zion, the machines were figuring out how to find energy ("they had all the energy they needed). So perhaps the question is not which came first, perhaps the question is Who was done first? The humans building zion? or the vast programming, harnessing, and implemation of the matrix. I say the humans got done first. But it is also possible that matrix was first. Tank said "the last human city"... Perhaps they had other cities underground, but not zion yet. Stuff to ponder I suppose! And perhaps the man born inside freed the first of them, but thats people from the matrix, there were still humans (people with no holes is proof of that). He sais "freed the FIRST of us" referring to himself (morpheus). Some of the counsellors have holes and they're twice his age.... further evidence perhaps zion came first.

This was my original post on this subject, and I have a couple other points to add. In the Animatrix, on the second renessance, we see humans use nukes. The woman who is the archives said "having not to worry about biological and nuclear effects from this". This is a first indication that we were underground before the matrix was created. It then shows men in a hospital, underground (before the matrix was created). Further evidence that we were already underground. I know this does not prove we were in zion, but it is food for thought. What leads me to believe it's zion first is this:

The architect tells neo he must return to the source, then select 23 people to "rebuild" zion. Now, if that is what the architect tells to the "one"'s, then he told that to the first "one". I haven't been able to devote enough thought to be able to figure out why this is relevant to the question at hand, but I really think it is. I think there are some good points to be found in the architects talk about the former ones. I will post more on the "architect told the first one" thing, hopefully broadining the gap between which one came first. Feel free to help me out a little ehehe :)

I believe it was zion, but isn't this an interesting point:

Morpheus said zion was there for 100 years.

The architect said he likes to think of it as one anomoly to the next. Neo is the 6th. Now neo is AT LEAST 23. Times that by 6, you get 138. Add a couple years for the first few matrixs that failed, you get 140.

so MAYBE

zion = 100 years old

matrix = 140 years old

could be wrong, but still thought it was interesting.

Very good point, the question is, WAS Zion there for a hundred years? Morpheus was wrong about the prophecy, he could be wrong about this. Then of course, you have to wonder how old the other 'ones' actually were. But yeah, very good point.

Originally posted by Helix
Very good point, the question is, WAS Zion there for a hundred years? Morpheus was wrong about the prophecy, he could be wrong about this. Then of course, you have to wonder how old the other 'ones' actually were. But yeah, very good point.

How about you stop posting messages and get working on my avatar a**hole :) ehehehe j/p