Why Neo Controls Squiddies - alternate reason to MIAM

I've posted this idea a coupla times before but usually it was in the middle of heated debates about other stuff and nobody replied so I decided I'd post this here and hope to get serious feedback from you guys:
Smith: ... So you're aware of it?
Neo: Of what?
Smith: Our connection. I don't fully understand how it happened, perhaps some part of you imprinted onto me, something overwritten or copied."
I'm pretty sure that here Smith is referring to that last scene in M1 when Neo dives into him and hacks him or whatever (any ideas btw?). Something of Neo was imprinted on Smith. I don't know if this is what made Smith so powerful, or even if that freed him, but it is obvious to me that Neo's imprinting had helped Smith in some way - had upgraded him.
What if this "imprinting" could also be achieved by Smith's copying techniques? What if Smith transferred some of his power on to Neo? We know Smith has control of the sentinels, so maybe Neo inherited that off him and that was how he stopped the sentinels?
Please don't ignore this thread. This has been bugging me for months. I'm sure there are certain alterations that could be made here to make this theory more plausible, but I think I'm on the right track.
Do you?

FYM, your idea's been raised a long time ago and I think it's been seriously discussed...somewhere...dunno.
...'Truth is there's no way to tell, and yes everyone pretty much agrees the implanting occured at M1's end. It's a good theory FYM...now where does that lead us to next...? :)

all I want is a little yes or no. Look into my theory, that big pretty theory and tell me. Yes, or no.
Actually I'd like to have your reasons too. ;)

I think Mac's right but anyway... I sorta agree with that theory but someone said that the stuff that smith uses looks a bit like the mirror in M1 and that would mean that (I just thought of this now) the ablity of copying oneself must belong to Neo too cuz he passed it on to Smith. And that stuff from the mirror might be the special material Smith uses to clone himself.

no.

cause, he's had the connection with smith since the end of m1, and has had no "symptoms" leading toward it. then right after neo gets told about the harsh reality of whats going to happen, he does something crazy. its like the architect somehow made him aware of what was actually happening.



and how is this theory any better than MiM? i mean that, on a point of just how much you'll like m3. how is this theory any less stupid than MIAM? its not predictable but its silly. MIM will please the general audience more than this theory.

I don't know about the 'general audience', but i'd pick this theory over MIAM any day!

same here. hey, what if the w bros WANT us to think it's mim? I mean, they made us think Neo was some savior, but it turned out he was really sort of working for the machines(not that he knew). I completely agree that it is Neo's connection with smith that caused him to move the sentinels.

freeyourmind, I like the notion that Neo gained sentinel-
controlling power from the merge, but I don't see how this has
anything to do with MiaM other than to shoot down a single piece
of evidence. However, it supports my theory about Neo's uniqueness

"Neo was able to stop the sentinels because they weren't real" is
only one part of the argument made by MiaMers. However, the
true MiaM theory penetrates every aspect of the Matrix, from
the moment a human refuses the program until the time they're
safely re-integrated into the prime program.

Neo is different though. He will transcend the entire illusion in M3
because his strength of self. He is truly different than
the "others." It is evidenced by the change in Smith.

Smith says, "...something happened, something I knew as
impossible. You destroyed me Mr. Anderson. Afterward, I knew
the rules. I understood what I was supposed to do but I didn't. I
couldn't. I was compelled to stay, compelled to disobey."

It was self awareness that Smith retained from Neo. Combine his
ability to manipulate the system as programmed (eg. sealing
Neo's mouth shut and "leaping" into other Matrix people) with his
new-found self-awareness, and it's no wonder he made a bunch
of copies of himself.

This is what is different from the other Ones. Smith: "It's
happening exactly as before. Well, not exactly." This suggests
the other Ones did not destroy Smith, and lacked the ability to stop
the sentinels because of it. The others chose the other door
so they really never had a chance to stop sentinels, but if they
did have a chance, they would have failed just as they failed to
destroy Smith. The architect's warning would have come true if
any of the others chose the door Neo chose.

We'll discuss it in higher length in the morning (I'm halfway asleep right now) but, not believing in MIAM, I think Smith will have something to do with finding the solution to the rebel's problems. I don't know whether he'd know he'd be helping or not. More likely that not, but that could just be me being optimistic.
Anyways, guys, the point wasn't that you'd take my theory and tell me whether you like it or not, it's not that well thought out. I want us to dissect it and improve on it and see if it can lead to something that make sense.
We've got a lot to do. Lets get to it. :)

Hey FYM no sweat...it's well thought-out. Anyway there's no need to bring MiM in here...this is just a small theory that might fit in any of the bigger ones. As for "general audience" we'll just have to see about that.

Actually, it's not well thought out.

What do you mean by 'power'?

magical power?

umm, hello?

he's outside the matrix, he raises his hand, and the sentinels stop. how exactly does he command them to stop? magic? I don't care if he got some special powers from smith, you still have to explain how he is able to communicate his command to the sentinels. Hand signal? lol

Why don't people think of these things?

Unless, he is inside the matrix, and then he can just use matrix powers to issue his commands to the sentinels.

Originally posted by Terikan
Actually, it's not well thought out.

What do you mean by 'power'?

magical power?
Yeap, it's magical!!!!

----------------------------------------
Architect: The function of the One is now to return to the source allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program
----------------------------------------

What code is that? Genetic code? I don't think I have any other code. Do you have some other code? Apparently Neo does. MAYBE this code has been implanted into him???
Maybe along with a code he got implanted with a wireless network card as well... lol... Or maybe that card came from the same magical place as "1,024,000" being the number of people in the matrix?*

Somehow Neo figured out how to command the sentinels, and transmitted the command via this network card.

Doesn't sound plausible? Oh well, neither does MIAM.


*see http://www.matrixreloaded.com/showthread.php?postid=72126#post72126

Originally posted by Terikan
Actually, it's not well thought out.

What do you mean by 'power'?

magical power?

umm, hello?

he's outside the matrix, he raises his hand, and the sentinels stop. how exactly does he command them to stop? magic? I don't care if he got some special powers from smith, you still have to explain how he is able to communicate his command to the sentinels. Hand signal? lol

Why don't people think of these things?

Unless, he is inside the matrix, and then he can just use matrix powers to issue his commands to the sentinels.

Smith/bane must of stopped the sentinals from killing him because he was the only one left after the counterattack so he had a way to communicate to them . So that also shows a connection and that that power could have come from smith.

In my opinion this theory is based in a wrong appraisal of Smith' relation with the matrix.

(Office)
Agent Smith: Never send a human to do a machine's job.
Agent Brown: If indeed the insider has failed, they'll sever the connection as soon as possible, unless...
Agent Jones: They're dead, in either case...
Agent Smith: We have no choice but to continue as planned. Deploy the sentinels immediately.

Does Smith have to say this? Why he didn't used his 'commands' to directly control the sentinels?

(Rooftop)
Agent Smith: Damn it.
Agent Brown: The trace was completed.
Agent Jones: We have their position.
Agent Brown: The sentinels are standing by.
Agent Jones: Order the strike.
Agent Smith: They're not out yet.

Once again.

Things to point out from these lines:
1- Smith never send any order/command to the sentinels.
2- Brown and Jones are who gather information from the sentinels and send them the orders.


My appraisal of this:
- The agents aren't in command of the sentinels, they are syncronizing his duties. Agents have to recapture Morpheus(Zion'mainframe codes) and sentinels have to destroy the rebels. Obviously, agent's mission must be carried out before sentinel's, thus they are in charge of syncronization task.

-------------------------------
"Combine his ability to manipulate the system as programmed (eg. sealing Neo's mouth shut and "leaping" into other Matrix people)"
I think it was the matrix who made the mouth trick and Smith just requested it to the matrix, in the same way the windows where changed by walls in Lafayette Hotel.

Originally posted by Seba Reloaded
In my opinion this theory is based in a wrong appraisal of Smith' relation with the matrix.

(Office)
Agent Smith: Never send a human to do a machine's job.
Agent Brown: If indeed the insider has failed, they'll sever the connection as soon as possible, unless...
Agent Jones: They're dead, in either case...
Agent Smith: We have no choice but to continue as planned. Deploy the sentinels immediately.

Does Smith have to say this? Why he didn't used his 'commands' to directly control the sentinels?
Maybe Smith didn't have to say it, but do the agents have to say anything? Are those scenes where they compete eachother's sentences, each one saying two words really neccesary? Wouldn't they get the information from the earpiece anyway? I think it's very possible that the only reason they talk is to give us an idea of what the hell's going on. Even in a movie like The Matrix, I believe there are some things that shouldn't be taken too literally. I think they just communicate their thoughts out loud.
[(Rooftop)
Agent Smith: Damn it.
Agent Brown: The trace was completed.
Agent Jones: We have their position.
Agent Brown: The sentinels are standing by.
Agent Jones: Order the strike.
Agent Smith: They're not out yet.

Once again.

Things to point out from these lines:
1- Smith never send any order/command to the sentinels.
2- Brown and Jones are who gather information from the sentinels and send them the orders.
This conversation is what I based my whole theory about. When the agents decide that a strike should be made, they turn to Smith. I think the logical conclusion is that Smith is responsible for the sentinels. When I saw that Bane was suffering from the same kind of coma/illness/whatever as Neo's I thought maybe they had both performed the same feat.
I don't understand how you reach your conclusions. I think you're basing them on Smith saying "they're not out yet" rather than "yessir, I'll get right to it" which really isn't his style. Smith must have obviously ordered the strike after he said that line. As for Brown and Jones running around delivering the actual messages, yes, I guess it is possible, but I don't think it's likely. I think it's just that they're under Smith's command and have to answer to him.
If this wasn't what you meant, try and clear up what it was that you did mean in your next post.
My appraisal of this:
- The agents aren't in command of the sentinels, they are syncronizing his duties. Agents have to recapture Morpheus(Zion'mainframe codes) and sentinels have to destroy the rebels. Obviously, agent's mission must be carried out before sentinel's, thus they are in charge of syncronization task.

-------------------------------
"Combine his ability to manipulate the system as programmed (eg. sealing Neo's mouth shut and "leaping" into other Matrix people)"
I think it was the matrix who made the mouth trick and Smith just requested it to the matrix, in the same way the windows where changed by walls in Lafayette Hotel.
First things first. I've been wondering about those two matrix-changing scenes. Who is this Matrix guy you speak of? Isn't the Matrix a computer program? Maybe the architect can change it at will? (which would support all the theories about the arc being a previous One - which btw, I highly doubt)
Back to Smith again, you say that the agents are the primary weapon and the sentinels the secondary - or is it the other way round?
I'm not so sure about that. I think the machines are fighting the humans along those two fronts at the same time - their jobs are, after all, very strikingly similar - we felt a sort of deja vu when Neo stoppped the sentinels dead. I'm sure they must both answer to the same master, and since we didn't meet anyone who gave commands save for Smith, I assume it was him. But maybe it's this Matrix dude, who knows? But all these things mean, I think and hope :), that you cannot totally discount my theory (got that Terikan? It's a bad habit, give people the benifit of the doubt).
Also, the agents role is not solely to get the Zion mainframe codes. It is also to stop the freeing of people from the Matrix, at least if the Animatrix is anything to go by.

p.s. Do you guys reckon there's a difference between the artificial intelligence of the agents and of the sentinels, and if so, how big is the gap?

FYM those are great points. and O2 sorry I missed your post on the W bros trying to manipulate our thoughts again on MiM-if it's one thing with the Matrix we've learned by now, it's to not expect anything...even the unexpected! :D
But FYM I don't agree with one point. The agents referring to Smith may not mean that Smith has some direct link to the Sentinels or anything, but he might be some sort of conduit. Note how the agents talked in the beginning of M2:
"It's Him."
"The Anomaly."
"Do we proceed?"
"Yes."
"He's still.'
"Only Human."
Yeah I know we've seen that one before but it seems somehow related...Jackson and Thompson appear to correspond for the most part directly up to Johnson. Notice also that they agree as they go...hinting at communication below the speech level. They converse all the time perhaps, and speaking just overlaps occasionally. The fact that all trios seem to correspond to one might be reminiscent of many control branches...like say the Overmind-Overseer-Overlord-Queen heirachy in Starcraft's Zerg.
Now by saying "send in the sentinels" they might be saying something along the lines of "we've both agreed, will you?"...they may still operate in tandem but need a harmonized decision that Smith never seems to cooperate in.
Huh still that's just a small discrepency that doesn't apply to the big topic here. no huge meaning intended...:)

It's like watching a multilingual movie, where the subtitles kick in
at first, then they switch to the individuals talking in english with
an accent of the subtitled language.

The agents speak for our benefit only, to show their collective
thoughts. They are collectively in direct control of the sentinels.
Hiarchy is irrelevent.

Edit: In fact, one might say the agents are jacked sentinels :)

I get what you're saying but I don't think it was really requesting a concensus. They weren't asking his opinion, in fact, it sounded to me like Jones (Or was it Brown? The thin one) was stating a fact, almost giving an order. "Order the strike". We've agreed, now order it before it's too late.
Something just occured to me. I believe that now that Smith has become whatever he has become some of his files are from his previous self and some are from Neo. Therefore some of his previous powers he will have regained, and some of his restrictions (in fact it seems that with most of the most basic restrictions) are gone, deleted. Maybe he manipulated his sentinel controlling power - bent some rules - and enhanced it up to a point that it wasn't at before. And maybe Neo, by subconciously using a combination of his power and Smith's, managed to stop the sentinels in their tracks.
But maybe this is going too much into it. If my theory is actually correct, than it probably wouldn't require all this last scenario. It would be pretty hard to explain this in a movie if this is the case.

Originally posted by EtaPhase
The agents speak for our benefit only, to show their collective
thoughts. They are collectively in direct control of the sentinels.
Hiarchy is irrelevent.
Again, how do you explain the "order the strike" line?
It was clearly said directly to Smith, unlike for example, the occasion where they were interrogating Morpheus and Jones, expressing his solution, said "perhaps we are asking the wrong question?"
We, not you, and Smith was the guy actually doing all the talking. I believe that here (at least at the beginning of the interrogation, lol) there was a concensus on the way they were to go about this. With the sentinels, it seems it is solely up to Smith.

Originally posted by freeyourmind
Again, how do you explain the "order the strike" line?
It was clearly said directly to Smith, unlike for example, the occasion where they were interrogating Morpheus and Jones, expressing his solution, said "perhaps we are asking the wrong question?"
We, not you, and Smith was the guy actually doing all the talking. I believe that here (at least at the beginning of the interrogation, lol) there was a concensus on the way they were to go about this. With the sentinels, it seems it is solely up to Smith.
Nah. It's simply collective thought and analysis, made audible for
our benefit. There's no need to think of it as anything other than
that really.

Besides, in M1 the agents sent the sentinels even when Smith
didn't order it himself. He was more interested in pursuing the
gang - "They're not out yet" - after the Morpheus rescue. The
sentinels were deployed the moment we heard Jones say "Order
the strike" - again, filling the audience in on the agent/sentinel
direct connection.

Woah thanks for the "personal" reply...I wasn't too sure I was making sense :D You do make a good point there...but I'm not so inclined to believe Smith has such a reponsibility alone...'makes the rest look weak. anyway let's hope most of your theory bears out?...beats MiM anyday...:p

Originally posted by EtaPhase
Nah. It's simply collective thought and analysis, made audible for
our benefit. There's no need to think of it as anything other than
that really.
Hey, don't you nah at me :p
What you mean to say is that this might make sense but you personally don't find it likely. Just discounting it at face value is foolish, that defeats the purpose of the discussion.
Don't worry about it, I just don't like it when arguments stop being objective. As long as you don't pull a Terikan on me (or lately ic3drpz) we can discuss this like civilised human beings :)
Besides, in M1 the agents sent the sentinels even when Smith
didn't order it himself. He was more interested in pursuing the
gang - "They're not out yet" - after the Morpheus rescue. The
sentinels were deployed the moment we heard Jones say "Order
the strike" - again, filling the audience in on the agent/sentinel
direct connection.
That's an interesting take. I always assumed what Smith meant was that Morpheus and company were still in the Matrix and couldn't use the EMP to protect themselves against the squiddies, I never realized he could be disagreeing with him.
I'm not if you're right, but it makes sense for Smith to put his ego before his mission - I don't think it was normal for an agent to shoot a person 15 times like Smith did to Neo at the end.
I find it hard to believe, however, that the agents decide on everything together. It's obvious Smith is the leader from the very start. You can tell be the way they turn to him when they speak, by him being the one interrogating Neo and Morpheus, maybe by him appearing in the simulation, maybe simply by how the movie focuses on him. Try and keep that in mind next time you watch The Matrix and tell me I'm wrong. A coupla posts back MacLeod said that the new trio also has a new leader. I don't really remember anything about that but if it's true then it also supports my theory.
And if the agents didn't have to have Smith's approval, why did Jones say "Order the strike" rather than "We are ordering the strike" or something along those lines like he did in the interrogation room (perhaps we are asking the wrong questions)?

Originally posted by freeyourmind
Hey, don't you nah at me :p
What you mean to say is that this might make sense but you personally don't find it likely. Just discounting it at face value is foolish, that defeats the purpose of the discussion.
Don't worry about it, I just don't like it when arguments stop being objective. As long as you don't pull a Terikan on me (or lately ic3drpz) we can discuss this like civilised human beings :)

That's an interesting take. I always assumed what Smith meant was that Morpheus and company were still in the Matrix and couldn't use the EMP to protect themselves against the squiddies, I never realized he could be disagreeing with him.
I'm not if you're right, but it makes sense for Smith to put his ego before his mission - I don't think it was normal for an agent to shoot a person 15 times like Smith did to Neo at the end.
I find it hard to believe, however, that the agents decide on everything together. It's obvious Smith is the leader from the very start. You can tell be the way they turn to him when they speak, by him being the one interrogating Neo and Morpheus, maybe by him appearing in the simulation, maybe simply by how the movie focuses on him. Try and keep that in mind next time you watch The Matrix and tell me I'm wrong. A coupla posts back MacLeod said that the new trio also has a new leader. I don't really remember anything about that but if it's true then it also supports my theory.
And if the agents didn't have to have Smith's approval, why did Jones say "Order the strike" rather than "We are ordering the strike" or something along those lines like he did in the interrogation room (perhaps we are asking the wrong questions)?
Wow, what part of my post was uncivilized? The "Nah" or
the "there's no reason to think..."? Methinks you've been
Terikanized too many times hehe :)

I still conclude the agents are a collective of sort, but Smith is
definitely different. Not different in rank but in will. He displays
rogue tendencies. No question about it. He wanted the code to
Zion's mainframe, but as we now know, Zion's destruction is
determined by the return of the One to the source. This
strengthens my theory that Zion and the sentinels are all part of
the program that was generated to mimic the first Matrix the
Architect mentioned, where humans did escape; but I digress.

It could be that the anomolous Neo had already begun having an
effect on Smith, changing him from the first point of contact - the
interrogation room. The change? Free will. Free will to try to end
Zion on his own because of his hatred for the Matrix "zoo" as he
calls it. As to why Neo would only affect Smith could be just what
the architect said, "that if left unchecked...", his anomolous code
would spread unpredictably, infecting the entire system eventually.

agent smith can give orders for an attack, but he doesnt CONTROL them. its like an army general giving an order to attack. the sentinels arent always connected to the matrix.

even if it was smith's powers, how could he feel them? name one thing in the world today that would allow him to feel a machine? how could any porgram work in a human body, in a real world? maybe the w. brothers do just want to mislead us, but i doubt it.

and about bane surviving. the whole time in m1, smith just wanted to get "free." but maybe what neo did at the end of m1 mad smith aware of the matrix in zion; and thats why he's so pissed off- he cant get free. cause it seems like smith knows something neo does not.

and explain to me why this theory is less stupid that MIM. cause i just dont see it. i just dont, im sorry.

Originally posted by EtaPhase
Wow, what part of my post was uncivilized? The "Nah" or
the "there's no reason to think..."? Methinks you've been
Terikanized too many times hehe :)
Yeah, sorry. I didn't mean for my post to come out as angry as it did, I was just pointing out that we were discussing the likelihood of this eventuality, not our own personal preference. I want you to tell me, even if you believe something else, whether this theory is actually possible or too full of holes.
I still conclude the agents are a collective of sort, but Smith is
definitely different. Not different in rank but in will. He displays
rogue tendencies. No question about it. He wanted the code to
Zion's mainframe, but as we now know, Zion's destruction is
determined by the return of the One to the source. This
strengthens my theory that Zion and the sentinels are all part of
the program that was generated to mimic the first Matrix the
Architect mentioned, where humans did escape; but I digress.
You know what, lets assume that what you say is right, and that Smith is just an ordinary part of the trio (though I still doubt it). He, along with Jones and Brown, would still have some kind of control over the sentinels - maybe not a control as direct as I first suggested, but one that he would be able to manipulate by some hackwork. Would it make sense then that Bane/Smith could have stopped them to save his own life?
And could have Neo subconsciously also use the power he "inherited" from Smith to stop them?

We do not know that Zion's destruction is caused by the dessimination of the One's code. We've only been told so by the architect. I believe he is lying since after going over the script for the scene carefully I realised that the obvious conclusion was MiaM, and it was reaffirmed when Neo stopped the sentinels. It seemed to me like the movie's going out of its way to convince us of this and it seemed very fishy. And we know that the oracle lied in M1 to advance her interests, whatever they may be, so we know lying is a possibility as far as the storywriters are concerned (also, the architect sort of lied about Trinity dying).
What I'm saying is that my whole theory is based on the notion of the architect lying. What still needs much more work is the reasoning behind the arc wanting Neo to enter the source (and more importantly, showing him Trinity. Why the hell would he do that, it's completely against his interests?).
Just so you understand, I don't completely reject Miam. I know that even if it's true Neo won't be able to do anything with his newly learned skills for a while (the coma), and I know that Seraph, Trinity and Morpheus apparently are gonna get most of the action, at least at the start, so we might still have an interesting thriller, but it would be a pretty big dissapointment from the philosophical angle. Hell, it vaguely stinks of some kind of religious preaching.
So MiaM as far as I am concerned is the worst plausible worst-case-scenario, and it seems a bit of a weak way to end a trilogy. The way I think the movie'll end is with some truce between humans and machines - with humans understanding that they actually want the Matrix in some form (this would explain MatrixOnline). I'm in the process of forming another theory along those lines but I'll post it in a new thread when I do.
It could be that the anomolous Neo had already begun having an effect on Smith, changing him from the first point of contact - the interrogation room. The change? Free will. Free will to try to end Zion on his own because of his hatred for the Matrix "zoo" as hecalls it. As to why Neo would only affect Smith could be just whatthe architect said, "that if left unchecked...", his anomolous codewould spread unpredictably, infecting the entire system eventually.
I highly doubt Neo changed Smith in the interrogation room. All they did was talk, and Neo's decision wasn't all that unusual. I don't know how Smith's rogue tendencies came to be, but we have to remember that he is after all A.I., not complete robot. I think it is possible for him to have some kind of personality, although this I am not sure of.
The last part of what you said I didn't understand. What does that quote have to do with Smith's free will. Please explain :)

I believe Ice that FYM has answered you with that.
It's hard to explain, but the reason why you don't see the argument is because you haven't dropped the assumptions that you base your theory on. I understand how ya feel...let's just say that you live in a cold region and I live in the tropics-now when you say "hot" to me I definitely won't agree so easily...I have based my knowledge on "hot" on assumptions I own. Yours here is that the Arc is right, while FYM's is that he's wrong...you all can see from here what chain reactions just one decision branch can create. "That if left unchecked..." :D
It's the same with religion, evolution (sorry no offense), almost everything raised in the forum...but we have to remember that these assumptions are in essence all assumptions. FYM I believe ya know that and you're tackling it very objectively...darn fine argument!
Now my views...you guys've pretty much lost poor ol' me in yer musings, but I think Smith is indeed interesting to the story for his resemblance to the One-an AI with free will of its own. Furthermore I believe that that was the key factor in making him him. If Neo had jumped into Jones he wouldn't have come back the way Smith has. There might be a command system from the way the agents differ to him, and later to Johnson, but Johnson was nowhere as independent as him.
Now for the command system. I'm beginning to see your point: that Smith is a leader of sorts; but I still disagree with him being a direct superior. The Sentinels were indeed launched without him, and though most of the talking was done by Smith the rest did act autonomously, orders seeming to come from everyone to everyone else. Boy what a brain job though...I can't think of much to argue here. :)