do you believe in evelution?

i c 3 d r p z

evolution is flawed? pleeeaaase !!! compared to religion it is flawless. i think religion, in which god is the creator, is the SImPLE explanation. he just said, let there be light. created the earth in seven days. thats so freakin simplistic and childish. listen to how childish that sounds.

evolution is complex. natural selection. survival of the fittest. its hard to take in cause its hard to imagine the lifespan of earth. 6 billion years old. its taken us 6 billion years to get to this point we are now. humans have only been on earth for 400,000 years. the dinosaurs we on the earth for 100 million, something like that. human life is new to this planet. 400,000 years is nothing. people have trouble seeing time thats longer than a human lifespan. evolution takes so long to happen, it goes by unoticed in a lifetime. and evolution is a proven fact.

and dont say that god put the first life on earth. and let it evolve from there. you either believe it or you dont, dont stop half way. who noes the first matter materialized in the universe. god? i think not. where the hell did god come from then?

MacLeod

Relax Ice. He didn't mean he believed in religion as well-its just that Evolution like almost everything out there is imperfect-it may not hold all the answers. We'll never know! Just like we'll never know if there's a God...that is; unless the skies start rainin' fire and all that.
Also there's no way to predict the workings of God if he exists so he could very well have made humanity and all other species beings with the capacity to evolve...while still knowing somehow or roughly what we'd turn out. Also that question of who creating God is an old one: is it hard to believe that there might actually be such a being that existed even before time itself? You said yourself that we have difficulty thinking in huge blocks of time or even in things beyond space-time itself-would not a being like a God exist so? I'm not religious mind you, but I do feel both sides have a point.
And Madhijs to answer your question: I would think not simply because we're not God or as perfect; we're only playing at him with such acts. Like Jurassic Park. Also machines aren't organic...it might not really fit into the term "creation of a species"...but then again definitions change.

JakeNewman

LOL. It just so happens that I don't believe in evolution...

freeze free

Originally posted by Madhijs
please do press the caps lock again!! your post looks very agressive like that!!

question to freeze free, when we develop AI would it set us next to GOD??
No it would put us next to the devil beacause when he developed sin he belived he was next to God beacause he inproved humans life but God knew he wasnt no where close and any body that belives there ethere better as good or next to God will go straight to hell and become a demond!

(need me to preech any more cuz rapping for God and preching is what I do best!!!)

freeze free

Originally posted by i c 3 d r p z
evolution is flawed? pleeeaaase !!! compared to religion it is flawless. i think religion, in which god is the creator, is the SImPLE explanation. he just said, let there be light. created the earth in seven days. thats so freakin simplistic and childish. listen to how childish that sounds.

I didnt exactly happen like that when he said let there be light it took a few days for the sun to develop and the earth acualy whent through 7 centurys the be created fully!

freeze free

Originally posted by i c 3 d r p z
where did God come from then?

That is a mystery he just appered he just happned then he whent to work doing the great things he has done today!

Oracle2.0

wait-if god made us evolve, what about everything else? what about the dinosaurs? i think god created the system of life that has things evolve, I'm not sure about it being divine intervention, I think it's just nature working in his system. it's like a factory or a computer program-you design it and let it work.

Jetfire

I am on the verdge of sleepiness and wakiness here people!

Oracle2.0

i don't think wakiness is a word....

freeze free

Originally posted by Jetfire90
I am on the verdge of sleepiness and wakiness here people!
What does that have to do with eveloution?

Shaddow28

I have been a firm believer in evolution since the day I was born.

freeze free

Originally posted by Shaddow28
I have been a firm believer in evolution since the day I was born.
Hey we have a newbie lets make him comfurbull here Hi I'm freeze free! but dont but in us non newbie peples busnes!! (just joking) :D

i c 3 d r p z

dont nobody try to calm me down !! im sick of everyone trying to calm me down, i aint calmin down, aiight !!?

if you believe thqt god can just appear out of nowhere and do all these things, how is it any different then the entire universe springing out of nowhere? how is it any different? they both dont make any sense, but some magical guy with magical powers is just silly.

and that's crap, huever said, that it took 7 centuries to create the world. and a few days for the sun to form. in the bible it says seven days. and thats all the evidence you have to go by in religion- the bible.

and god has a strange way of judging ppl. believe in me or go to hell. cause i take it that you have to believe in god to go to heaven. what about ppl in countires where they arent allowed freedom of religion? countries where they just dont know about god? are they going to hell? lets say im the perfect person. always nice to everyone i meet. never do anything wrong in my entire life. help the sick. give to the poor. but i dont believe in god. im going to hell, in a religous point of veiw.

MacLeod

Heh. Alright. Don't calm down. Keep making declarations that don't go through alotta thought. No use getting angry really, you're only gonna make everyone else angry as well and it'll be a brawl, not a discussion. No one'll admit your point even if you do have a good one 'cos you made them angry; that's all I mean. Now on your views. I admit the idea of God is silly. So's Man once being apes. Or light being both a particle and a wave. Since when did the universe care if we like its ways or no? Evolution may be right, but in the same unprovable way, so will theology. Or even of Heaven or Hell-if it did exist you not believing in it won't stop the demons from dragging you down...only difference'll be if its kickin' or screamin'. I don't even believe in the classical concept of it-but then again might not a different version of them exist? Might there be more universal human rules that a conceptual God may continually be judging us by? My analogy of light draws a strong parallel. Some things cannot be explained by light being a particle or a wave, so we have to accept that both may or may not be at the same time correct. So's so many other things in life, Ice...

i c 3 d r p z

Originally posted by MacLeod
Heh. Alright. Don't calm down. Keep making declarations that don't go through alotta thought. No use getting angry really, you're only gonna make everyone else angry as well and it'll be a brawl, not a discussion. No one'll admit your point even if you do have a good one 'cos you made them angry; that's all I mean. Now on your views. I admit the idea of God is silly. So's Man once being apes. Or light being both a particle and a wave. Since when did the universe care if we like its ways or no? Evolution may be right, but in the same unprovable way, so will theology. Or even of Heaven or Hell-if it did exist you not believing in it won't stop the demons from dragging you down...only difference'll be if its kickin' or screamin'. I don't even believe in the classical concept of it-but then again might not a different version of them exist? Might there be more universal human rules that a conceptual God may continually be judging us by? My analogy of light draws a strong parallel. Some things cannot be explained by light being a particle or a wave, so we have to accept that both may or may not be at the same time correct. So's so many other things in life, Ice...

youre the one that's making me made macleod. HUMANS WERE NEVER APES !!!!!!! thats the biggest mistake everyone always makes about human evolution. "it may be silly buy so is the idea that humans used to be apes." thats completely wrong.

humans and apes both evolved from a common primate ancestor. humans broke off from another species, as did chimps, gorillas, apes, and all other primates. humans evolved from the same exact species as apes did. think of it as you and a distant cousin. you both came from the same grandparents, or great-grand parents but you have no direct relation. lets call this common ancestor a pig. for fun. humans broke off from pigs. apes broke off from pigs. gorillas broke off from pigs. etc. we are very close in a genetic stand point (99% of are genes are the same as in a chimp's) but we never evolved from apes. too confusing for you or what?

evolution IS provable. its only unprovable to dumb people who dont understand the facts. evolution has already been proven. fossils of other bipeds (species that walk on two legs) have been found. people ask where the missing link is. WE"VE FOUND HUNDREDS OF HUMAN ANCESTORAL FOSSILs. neanderthals. homo erectus. homo habilas. all human ancestors that have been proven to have existed at one time. so dont say that evolution cant be proven. religoin cant be proven. show me some evidence that god exists. some hard evidence. not that crap thats in the bible.

Jetfire

It best describes me at the moment. Whether its a word of not. Makes sense to me. What does it have to do with Evolution? Nothing. You could have figured that one out without my assistance.

TheDrakemaster

Evolution is a simple fact. Whether u believe in it or not is irrelevant me thinks.

JakeNewman

I'm sorry but evolution is not a simple fact, it is a theory...That is unless you've been alive for the last several billion years to witness it?

freeyourmind

Originally posted by TheDrakemaster
Evolution is a simple fact. Whether u believe in it or not is irrelevant me thinks.
Hey, if there's one thing the Matrix has taught us it is that nothing is for sure...
This is a discussion! You can't just decide that your opinion is fact and whoever doesn't agree with it is a moron. That's stupid, and the same goes, actually mainly goes, to i c 3 d r p z.
My opinion is that God created with the world the concept of time itself. He is a completely independent entity. That's why the problem of starting from nothing doesn't apply to him - he invented starting.
This is hard for us to understand because we can't grasp that kind of consciousness, but I think we can grasp the general idea.
The idea of god is also in the end just a theory, but it's the closest one to a fact that I can think of. Even if our whole perception of the world around us is wrong and everything we've ever been taught was a lie nothing can start from nothing without the interference of a completely independent being (i.e. God).
What this god might want and whether the religious people are really doing his will is up to you to decide but I think it's pretty clear that he exists.
If anyone wants to discuss this with me, I'm more than happy to oblige, but please make this a sensible discussion.

Jetfire

If thats your opinion then stop putting your opinion against other people's opinions. Sorry for this but it really did seem like you were taking it out on people for expressing their opinions. If they weren't expressing their opinions then I am well and truely sorry. But don't take anything out on me.

Madhijs

Originally posted by JakeNewman
I'm sorry but evolution is not a simple fact, it is a theory...That is unless you've been alive for the last several billion years to witness it?

evolution is a change over generations in the frequencies of various genes in a population

and that does not take billions of years....

than there is another thing, not mentioned before in this thread and that is natural selection.. and even that is a fact, there are examples available of noticable natural selection that happened in like 100 years (it does not have to take billions of years).. noticable natural selection also is noticable evolution...

but as said before:
evolution is a fact, but it does not have to be the reasen why we are here...

freeyourmind

Originally posted by Jetfire90
If thats your opinion then stop putting your opinion against other people's opinions. Sorry for this but it really did seem like you were taking it out on people for expressing their opinions. If they weren't expressing their opinions then I am well and truely sorry. But don't take anything out on me.
I wasn't angry at people for expressing their opinion. I was mad because they decided it was a fact and that it wasn't up for discussion. If you're (not you specifically, Jet) so sure of your opinion it's not up for debate, then what are you doing debating it here? It just seems a bit arrogant to me.

Madhijs

i hope you weren't referring to me freeyourmind:) allthough i can understand that you are angry with me:)

I do not really want to discuss the evolution thing, I think if God rules over us that he/she/it uses evolution....

but another thing if we are here because of God, if God created us, we would be on earth definately with a reason don't we?? Why would someone put us on earth??? Why would someone create live.... what do you think that reason is???, or don't you think there has to be a reason?? do you think it is to see what people are good, and what people are bad (like as far as I know the bible says??)?

Oracle2.0

here's my view on it: I believe that God made earth habitable for living creatures for the sake of creating life in a dead-well, you can't be dead unless you've lived-I mean, lifeless universe. I think that he created the system of evolution because it's better for the species. I do believe that humans were once very very close to today's apes. that's my belief.

freeyourmind

Originally posted by Madhijs
evolution is a change over generations in the frequencies of various genes in a population

and that does not take billions of years....

than there is another thing, not mentioned before in this thread and that is natural selection.. and even that is a fact, there are examples available of noticable natural selection that happened in like 100 years (it does not have to take billions of years).. noticable natural selection also is noticable evolution...

but as said before:
evolution is a fact, but it does not have to be the reasen why we are here...
Yes, natural selection is a fact, but the question up for discussion here is whether humans developed from apes or were created (or born or whatever) the way they are now.
I think there was a lot of natural selection involved but I don't think it was what started the whole cycle of organic life. I believe god created the pool of matter (or maybe a more developed organism) and the radiation and everything started from there.
Even if Evolution and the Big Bang theories are correct, it would take a trillion of coincidences for life to turn out the way it had - for Earth to wander into the solar system, for radiation actually creating something half useful out of an organic pool, for life to suddenly spring up on our planet, to mention a few (there are another 199,999,999,999,997 :p) . Personally, I don't find that more likely than the interence of god, of him starting the process (as someone must had, at the beginning) and lending a helping hand to guide us to where we are today.
Having said that, stop stealing my breakout championship!!! :mad:
I was getting really attached to it!
Nah, just kidding. May the more obssesive man win! ;)

freeyourmind

Originally posted by Madhijs
i hope you weren't referring to me freeyourmind:) allthough i can understand that you are angry with me:)

I do not really want to discuss the evolution thing, I think if God rules over us that he/she/it uses evolution....

but another thing if we are here because of God, if God created us, we would be on earth definately with a reason don't we?? Why would someone put us on earth??? Why would someone create live.... what do you think that reason is???, or don't you think there has to be a reason?? do you think it is to see what people are good, and what people are bad (like as far as I know the bible says??)?
No, I'm not angry at you Mad (that's what I'm goona call you from now on, OK? I can never remember your name). I can lose gracefully, although I have no intention of doing so. Look out, Breakout and Snake, here I come! My friend's handling pac-man. Heh heh. You know, I don't think this flash competition is healthy for either one of us.
Anyway, back on topic, I'm currently in the process of formulating a theory on why God would create us. I thought of comparing it to art. Why does an artist create his masterpiece? Because there is a certain justice to it, I think. Because there is a life - a soul in a true work of art, that it is essential to bring out into the open. It would be doing justice.
God is an independent perfect entity. An independent entity can do only justice, and being perfect, it would do complete justice.
Now, I believe that this world is god's work of art, as it were. This story, its characters and the way it will be solved have to be created, it would be unjust if it weren't.
It would make sense too, for other worlds to exist, maybe with different laws of physics, with a different system from time and different emotions and kinds of people that exist too. I think the purpose of all of these worlds would be to achieve complete justice - then god would send the people into a perfect world, into heaven, which I think will be a permanent spiritual fulfilment, like the one you sometimes get when you watch a good movie or hear a good song (or pray, if you've ever done that properly).
Do you see what I'm getting at? I still haven't organised my thoughts enough for any human being (including me) to completely understand it, but I think I truly am on to something.
Sorry if I'm preaching too much, I'm not trying to convert anyone but this my half-formed view on the world and I would love to get some feedback if this interests anybody.
Feel free to ask me about details of my theory that I didn't explain properly. Then again, also feel free to completely ignore my babbling and discuss evolution.

i c 3 d r p z

Originally posted by i c 3 d r p z
HUMANS WERE NEVER APES !!!!!!! thats the biggest mistake everyone always makes about human evolution. "it may be silly buy so is the idea that humans used to be apes." thats completely wrong.

humans and apes both evolved from a common primate ancestor. humans broke off from another species, as did chimps, gorillas, apes, and all other primates. humans evolved from the same exact species as apes did. think of it as you and a distant cousin. you both came from the same grandparents, or great-grand parents but you have no direct relation. lets call this common ancestor a pig. for fun. humans broke off from pigs. apes broke off from pigs. gorillas broke off from pigs. etc. we are very close in a genetic stand point (99% of are genes are the same as in a chimp's) but we never evolved from apes. too confusing for you or what?

evolution IS provable. its only unprovable to dumb people who dont understand the facts. evolution has already been proven. fossils of other bipeds (species that walk on two legs) have been found. people ask where the missing link is. WE"VE FOUND HUNDREDS OF HUMAN ANCESTORAL FOSSILs. neanderthals. homo erectus. homo habilas. all human ancestors that have been proven to have existed at one time. so dont say that evolution cant be proven. religoin cant be proven. show me some evidence that god exists. some hard evidence. not that crap thats in the bible.

dont even talk to me about not having an open mind. you talk about me having my opinion and everyone's else is stupid, but ppl that believe in religion are 1000x worse! im speaking in general although you guys are the same way here. they have it drilled into there heads that god is there saviour, and nothing's going to change it. they've been brainwashed. seriously, if you're born into a religious family, you getted drilled with the **** all your life. you get brainwashed.

humans didnt evlove from apes, but they did evolve from a common primate ancestor. read my post above, cause you obviously didnt b4, about that. EVOLUTION IS A PROVEN FACT!! okay. its not even something you can argue with. its like trying to argu about whether or not there's such thing as gravity. they're both proven and cant be argued about. we have fossil evidence of the evolutionary process. the human evolutionary process. maybe there is a higher force out there, but he DID NOT PUT US ON THIS EARTH AS WERE ARE TODAY. its impossible, but thats what the bible says. ill agree thats there's may be a higher force (not really but it thats what you want to hear) but i dont agree with anything in the bible. why dont they ever mention the dinosaurs in the bible? in the bible, they are trying to tell us that humans and dinosaurs lived at the same time. total bull****. they trying to say the the world's been the same way since the creation of earth. that humans were created the way they are, and they have never been any other way. what about neanderthals? its been proven that they were on earth at some time, but it dont say **** bout them in the bible. what about homo erectus? homo habilas? they are all along the evolutionary track of humans. they walked on two legs. they had thumbs. they had large brains. but the bible doesnt explain why we have evidence of them. from a religous standpoint, you explain it to me. if you belive in natural selection and evolution, but dont believe that humans are here becuz of it, its like saying you believe in 1 + 1 = 2, but not 500 + 500 = 1000. its like you believe in addition, but it only works on a small scale.

but like i said, no matter how much evidence there is, you have it drilled in your head that there's a god. nothing's gonna change the way you think. no matter how much rock solid evidence there is for human evolution. lets use the matrix as an example. some ppl live in a dream world so long, they have trouble letting go when they realize its not true. its the same thing with religion. thye dont want to let go cause it goes against what they've been told their whole life. and nothing's gonna change the way they think. try not to act like that.

Madhijs

Originally posted by freeyourmind
No, I'm not angry at you Mad (that's what I'm goona call you from now on, OK? I can never remember your name). I can lose gracefully, although I have no intention of doing so. Look out, Breakout and Snake, here I come! My friend's handling pac-man. Heh heh. You know, I don't think this flash competition is healthy for either one of us.
Anyway, back on topic, I'm currently in the process of formulating a theory on why God would create us. I thought of comparing it to art. Why does an artist create his masterpiece? Because there is a certain justice to it, I think. Because there is a life - a soul in a true work of art, that it is essential to bring out into the open. It would be doing justice.
God is an independent perfect entity. An independent entity can do only justice, and being perfect, it would do complete justice.
Now, I believe that this world is god's work of art, as it were. This story, its characters and the way it will be solved have to be created, it would be unjust if it weren't.
It would make sense too, for other worlds to exist, maybe with different laws of physics, with a different system from time and different emotions and kinds of people that exist too. I think the purpose of all of these worlds would be to achieve complete justice - then god would send the people into a perfect world, into heaven, which I think will be a permanent spiritual fulfilment, like the one you sometimes get when you watch a good movie or hear a good song (or pray, if you've ever done that properly).
Do you see what I'm getting at? I still haven't organised my thoughts enough for any human being (including me) to completely understand it, but I think I truly am on to something.
Sorry if I'm preaching too much, I'm not trying to convert anyone but this my half-formed view on the world and I would love to get some feedback if this interests anybody.
Feel free to ask me about details of my theory that I didn't explain properly. Then again, also feel free to completely ignore my babbling and discuss evolution.

Sounds very very impressive... I just read an article about erhmm how do you say it in english 'nature philosophy' .. a philosophy that sees the universe as a living organism with a soul... it made me think a lot... first I think the universe being a living organism sounds real unrealistic.. but I like the idea of the universe having a soul, I do not believe that we humans have a soul as many think so it makes the soul a very flexible thing for me...

so this in mind, your theory makes sense to me..... i think we are able to reveil all secrets of the human mind/soul.. i even think we can live for ever... I think we are able to make out of the computer a thinking (living) something and I guess that would set us next to the God many believe in... but the soul of the universe is something different... The reasen, the why.....

Oracle2.0

look i c 3 d r p z, it's good to voice ur opinion and all, but you don't have to get on a soap box. I don't know whether you mean it or not, but you sound like ur yelling in ur posts here. I respect ur views on religon and the bible, but how bout u respecting mine and others? you say we're brainwashed? I've looked at all religons from Catholism to ancient Greek. I was born Protestant, but I do have certain disagreements w/ that religon. I went to a catholic school, but I have disagreements w/ that reilgon as well. I just believe what i believe, not really belonging to a certain faith. You say you have an open mind, but those w/ religon are worse, HELLO! you're being very prejudicial about people who believe in there being a divine being that should be worshipped in a certain way.
Yes, the bible has errors, but it was written in ancient times. I know that the Adam and Eve story isn't a fact. I know stories like the tower of babble ian't fact. however, people and events in the bible did take place. I respect the bible, and I'd apperciate it if u'd stop swearing about it. You can voice ur opinion all you want, just keep in mind that it's only an opinion, not a fact that others are ignorantly unaware of.

MacLeod

O2 and freeyourmind have made very good, if darn tedious by now, points. It's not just expressing one's views that's the point in a discussion its being open to others. You think religious peope are closed-minded. Well so were the people who thought the Earth was flat or that the sun orbited us. So are we for maintaining our adherrance to Newton's Laws which I might add is not infallible. So might you for insisting on your views.
Humans weren't directly apes yes, but they share a common, very ancient genome. You said they broke away from apes. How can you break away when you aren't part of somthing? Ok maybe we share an ancestor that the apes are part of, not a whole. Is that technicality so important? We also share certain genes close to mice and pigs but in terms of closeness apes have us pegged.
I don't have it drilled in my head there's a god; I have it drilled in my head that there could be ANYTHING. When one closes his mind in a topic he becomes just as guilty of being stagnant and complacent as the people he opposes. When you stop considering that even your own view is wrong it sooner or later will be from most human experience. I'm not saying I disagreed with evolution-like Shin I feel it's *not the final answer* remember that!!
We believed very long ago that since wood burned and left charcoal and steam we deduced that it was made of 3 of 4 basic elements of nature-fire, water, earth and air. Later we found out its made of atoms. much later, protons and neutrons and electrons. Happy? No-we found more-Quarks, superstrings..and the discoveries are unlikely to stop soon. How would you feel when someone discovers a similar but better theory of evolution? You'd sound exactly like someone declaring Olympus to be the home of the Gods. Oh and there are: did you know the Neanderthals are actually a lot smarter than believed?
...I didn't make you mad first ice. I tried to be nice and clarify points but you declared you wanted to be mad-would you deserve any other attitude then? I'm not even getting worked up or vulgar or screaming yet...while you're losing your composure. Stop, review, and think. Then answer this.

MacLeod

Oh hey O2 it's "Tower of Babel" LOL :D
Mad (:D), Free...there's another theory you can just give some thought to (no need to believe): existantialism. It states that well...We know we are here only because we are here to know we are here. Everything happened and couldn't have happened any other way-we are still alive. Morpheus inserted a very nice cameo of that philosophy. If things had turned out another way we wouldn't be here to think of it: end of question. Maybe in another planet people will. Or another galaxy. Who knows? Why aren't we in Mars now wondering what miracle it was that made us exist? Because we're not; no use wondering beyond that. An interesting and more layman than philosophical theory. And one that would help more often in real life I might add...you don't wonder about why that red light turned green just as ya reached it-just take it LOL!

freeyourmind

Originally posted by Madhijs
Sounds very very impressive... I just read an article about erhmm how do you say it in english 'nature philosophy' .. a philosophy that sees the universe as a living organism with a soul... it made me think a lot... first I think the universe being a living organism sounds real unrealistic.. but I like the idea of the universe having a soul, I do not believe that we humans have a soul as many think so it makes the soul a very flexible thing for me...

so this in mind, your theory makes sense to me..... i think we are able to reveil all secrets of the human mind/soul.. i even think we can live for ever... I think we are able to make out of the computer a thinking (living) something and I guess that would set us next to the God many believe in... but the soul of the universe is something different... The reasen, the why.....
I didn't say the universe was a living organism, I said it was an entity with a soul, like many great movies, music, literature etc.
How do you define "soul", Mad?
I believe it's the little bit of god that's inprinted in things - sometimes people, sometimes art (and maybe philosophy), but I know that some atheists believe in souls too so maybe it could mean something else.

freeyourmind

Originally posted by MacLeod
Oh hey O2 it's "Tower of Babel" LOL :D
Mad (:D), Free...there's another theory you can just give some thought to (no need to believe): existantialism. It states that well...We know we are here only because we are here to know we are here. Everything happened and couldn't have happened any other way-we are still alive. Morpheus inserted a very nice cameo of that philosophy. If things had turned out another way we wouldn't be here to think of it: end of question. Maybe in another planet people will. Or another galaxy. Who knows? Why aren't we in Mars now wondering what miracle it was that made us exist? Because we're not; no use wondering beyond that. An interesting and more layman than philosophical theory. And one that would help more often in real life I might add...you don't wonder about why that red light turned green just as ya reached it-just take it LOL!
Are you sure about that?
I was under the impression existentialism was the belief in one's importance in the whole scheme of things. In other words, "We're all here to do what we're all here to do", cuz we're the only ones who can and we have a duty to do so. Judaism also stresses this concept quite a lot, which is one of the reasons I really like my religion :) (not, ice, because I was brainwashed into it. I have always given it a lot of thought and I still do. This topic is up for discussion because, like all of my opinions, it is not 100 percent full-proof and I could change my mind at any time. This is the reason for my user name, it's my motto in life).
If I remember correctly, this philosophy was founded against the flood of ideas about the importance of the gods and natural powers that left humans completely out of the equation.
I think The Matrix is really a movie about existentialism. Neo is, in fact, the ultimate existentialist.

Madhijs

Originally posted by freeyourmind
I didn't say the universe was a living organism, I said it was an entity with a soul, like many great movies, music, literature etc.
How do you define "soul", Mad?
I believe it's the little bit of god that's inprinted in things - sometimes people, sometimes art (and maybe philosophy), but I know that some atheists believe in souls too so maybe it could mean something else.

No no, the philosophy I was talking about sees the universe as a living organism...

I think/believe we humans do not have a soul.. I guess the world we are living in is all about matter and energy.. we humans are just puppets in a game but we have the special abillity to be able to think we live/think the way we want to, to think we have a free will.... (it sounds scary, but I do not see it that way... I love to gamble on something I have no control over... so why should I not be able to love a live that I have no control over... just a little example, there are more things that makes me think my live is wonderful.. live is wonderful)

I do not see this live as a game by the way, just used that word as i did not know a better one to use..

But I guess there must be a reasen... We are not here just because we are here we are here because something.. and that something is in that soul// but i guess that soul will be one that also consists of matter and energy.. allthough that would be another kind of matter and energy.. and so on and so on.. infinit souls away I guess we are back in our world....

but that is one of my theories very likely to change very soon... but at some point it makes a lot sense to me....

freeyourmind

So what you're basically saying is that ignorance is bliss... ;)
You might not mind living in a Matrix, but an existentialist like Neo (or like me for that matter :) ) would, and would fight for his life to have meaning.
You say the reason for our existence is in our soul and that our soul consists of matter and energy. I don't quite follow you, could you be more specific?
You also say we are only puppets in some scheme but that we have the "gift" of having an overactive imagination. Why would something like that be a gift?
Apart from that, I understand the gist of what you're trying to say and I can see how people could come to those conclusions from watching M2, but I think Revolutions will bring us an existentialist answer to all these questions of choice. Then again, it might just raise some new ones, but that would be good too. It's better to have your brain stimulated than having the answers dictated to you...
What I can suggest that might prove to you that humans have a soul is to try and catch that feeling you get when experiencing masterpieces and ask yourself if a being without a soul could have created such a thing. I know it's not exactly proof, but it can be pretty convincing.

MacLeod

Hmm...FYM i'm not so sure. I heard your point raised before, but I guess existantialism exists in more than one mode. What I adhers to is what was mentioned in a book by Lawrence Krauss. It did state that we are here precisely because things haven't happened any other way; not that it was meant to happen this way. If I drop a cup and catch it I'll say I'm lucky. If not, it smashes and I'm unlucky, but not both.
I have heard of your theory, but I think its name may not be existantialism...anyway I'll need to go and check it out back home thanks fer' pointing that out FYM!! :)

Madhijs

I am trying to say that I think we live in a world that is based on rules of matter and energy (somewhat inspired by Hobbes... still want to read Leviathan his book about the philosophy called materialism.. ) but the flaw in that theory is that I cannot see a meaning in such a live, that is why I think there has to be some kind of a soul that is not based on the rules of our world.. and I guess that would be the soul of the universe, of everything! that soul can be compared (a little) by us creating AI, we would be the soul of AI.. it is based on other rules than the 1's and 0's... We would be the meaning of AI's live.. it is not a great meaning but it is one...

And as it looks my views are not taken from the matrix trilogy, I love the matrix because it visualizes a lot of theories I think that are possible, but I try not to take over all views:)

uhmm.. proceding: Ignorance is bliss, correct it is for most people ..... but as stated above I am also looking for a meaning.. If I had the choice I would take the red pill.. or none of the two, I would never choose for ignorance.... not in this kind of matter! allthoug, chances are small that the meaning can be found in a real live instead of lets say the matrix so I might choose not to take any of the 2 pills....

"You also say we are only puppets in some scheme but that we have the "gift" of having an overactive imagination. Why would something like that be a gift?"

-> I said I loved my live, I love live... that would be the reasen that I think of it as a gift!!

"What I can suggest that might prove to you that humans have a soul is to try and catch that feeling you get when experiencing masterpieces and ask yourself if a being without a soul could have created such a thing. I know it's not exactly proof, but it can be pretty convincing."

-> People get high with drugs... people say they experience this feeling with just drugs or noticable higher levels of certain chemicals in our body... so that would also be proof that the body just has an action-reaction system.. You cannot be just be on that higher level there has to be a reasen for it... A reasen that if the body had a soul was not nessecary.. i guess...

by the way everybody calls me Mad, (madhouse, gadget and lots of other names so it is perfect if you call me mad!! , a little late but never said it was ok:)) my real name is Matthijs, I switched the TT for the D and that makes Madhijs... it might be a difficult name for people that not live in holland but I am the only one in the world with that name.. every madhijs you see is me... in every forum, my email etc. etc.

freeyourmind

Originally posted by MacLeod
Hmm...FYM i'm not so sure. I heard your point raised before, but I guess existantialism exists in more than one mode. What I adhers to is what was mentioned in a book by Lawrence Krauss. It did state that we are here precisely because things haven't happened any other way; not that it was meant to happen this way. If I drop a cup and catch it I'll say I'm lucky. If not, it smashes and I'm unlucky, but not both.
I have heard of your theory, but I think its name may not be existantialism...anyway I'll need to go and check it out back home thanks fer' pointing that out FYM!! :)
The philosophy I'm talking about was founded by the Danish Soren Kierkegard mainly in response to the German Hegel's philosophy of man being a pawn which should be used to achieve important goals - or in other words, that ideas are important than people.
I'm pretty sure Kierkegard's philosophy was called existentialism but I'll check it out again.

freeyourmind

Originally posted by Madhijs
I think there has to be some kind of a soul that is not based on the rules of our world.. and I guess that would be the soul of the universe, of everything!
I don't understand. You're saying that the universe is not based on the rules of our world? That doesn't really make sense. I agree that there must be a soul that is not restricted by anything - like god isn't restricted by anything. Get my drift?
that soul can be compared (a little) by us creating AI, we would be the soul of AI.. it is based on other rules than the 1's and 0's... We would be the meaning of AI's live.. it is not a great meaning but it is one...
Interesting thought, but I don't think it works.
{Universe => Humans} is not like {Humans => machines}. Humans live in the universe, machines are created by a humans. It's a different connection.
-> I said I loved my live, I love live... that would be the reasen that I think of it as a gift!!
Even if your life is just an illusion?
-> People get high with drugs... people say they experience this feeling with just drugs or noticable higher levels of certain chemicals in our body... so that would also be proof that the body just has an action-reaction system.. You cannot be just be on that higher level there has to be a reasen for it... A reasen that if the body had a soul was not nessecary.. i guess...
Look, I've never taken drugs so I don't really know how to answer that, but, just using common sense, I'd say spirituality seems the opposite of being high. When you're on drugs you're living an illusion - it's a short term answer for a meaningless or depressing life that would make matters worse logically. Spirituality, on the other hand is living the real, true world in it's purest form. It is believed to be the only thing that can make a person truly happy for an infinite time - you can never get sick of spirituality. Even now when posting I can feel some of it (must be all the philosophy). I don't know about you, but the time spent writing posts for interesting discussions like this is the most enjoyable in my day.
I can understand how people would get confused between the two though (assuming everything I said so far is correct). Opposites very often look and feel alike.
I guess I can't really bring you proof of the existence of a soul (at least not yet), but it's really something you can feel real strong and this is very convinving to me. Right now I'm about 90 percent sure of this soul business.
by the way everybody calls me Mad, (madhouse, gadget and lots of other names so it is perfect if you call me mad!! , a little late but never said it was ok:)) my real name is Matthijs, I switched the TT for the D and that makes Madhijs... it might be a difficult name for people that not live in holland but I am the only one in the world with that name.. every madhijs you see is me... in every forum, my email etc. etc.
Alrighty.
Glad you cleared that up.

i c 3 d r p z

i want to say something about what us believing that the earth was flat, and that the earth was the center of the universe is like. as silly as that sounds, ppl believed it strongly at the time. the more we knew, the more silly it became. the same thing is going to happen with religion. once ppl become more aware of the facts, and as our technology grows even more, religion's gonna be looked upon the same way as the earth being flat is right now. religion is just a way of explaining the unexplainable. aceint humans saw lightening. they didnt know what it was, but they wanted an explaination for it. god's throwing em down. not saying thats what happen, but along those lines. religion's a way to explain the unexplainable. it was started long ago, and its stuck. people didnt have an explaination to why they were able to just stay on the earth without falling off. so they said it was flat. ppl dont understand how the world started so they make up another fairy tale about a god. its all the same thing.

when did i say humans broke away from apes? i never said such a dumb thing. apes, monkies, gorillas, chimps, humans, all evolved from a common primate ancestor. omg. forget it. **** it already. if there's been some hostility in my posts thats becuz i mean there to be. are you even listening? for serious tho. i feel like im taking crazy pills here! believe in whatever fairy tales you want to believe in. i guess ill be in hell with the other 90 % of ppl in this world. there's only one right religion. there cant be two. so everyone else but the right one's going to ****ing hell i guess. hell = some magical place in another demension. **** *** ********* **** **** !@!@!@@!@!@!@!@!@!@!!@! i try to have a ****ing talk here and you guys are accusing me of "being too mean." tell me what the **** you want me to do and ill do it. you want me to be nicer, tell me. you guys must really be sensitive or sumthing. **** !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! what ever will make YOU happy, ****ing tell me. ive been nice as i can this whole time. not ny ****ing more !! do you want me to say agree to **** when i know its all bull****? ill deal with the ****ing consequences of "being mean". i hope i havent hurt your poor little feelings.

**** you macleod. **** you freeyourmind. **** you oracle 2.0. all you *****es can suck my ****ing d!ck. everyone in this ****ing forum can kiss my ****ing ass. i hate all you. every last one of you ****s. ur all idiots. ur all uptight b!tches with sticks up your asses. this forum has gone down ****ing hill. im out this ****ing place.

Oracle2.0

so now ur MAD at us for our beliefs? I tried to be nice, I said I respected your views. HOW DARE YOU just yell at us and cuss us out! had you replied in a nicer way, leaving out all of the swearing and such, i wou;dn't have a problem. I've read you treat people who believe in religon like people who don't diserve respect, but now I've had it.
God, Allah, Buddha, what ever you call it, exists, whether you're too ignorant to feel it or just grown too far from him, or her, or it to feel it. Judging by the way you write, I'd say it's the second one. You have a problem w/ people who believe in religon, you have a problem with most of the people on the planet. I find that religon is an important part of one's life. Actually, I think all that matters is that you're a good person and you RESPECT others, no matter what.
okay, I've let out my anger now...I need a cookie...

i c 3 d r p z

im pissed cause your acussing me of being closed minded when you are too.

Madhijs

ermm icedropz...
lost yourself again.. I remember an thread where you were making the same kinda posts... the thread where you were a believer in the MIAM theory.. also cursing and yelling to people because you were right and the others were wrong!! well november the 4th we will see that not everything that you take for granted is true!!!!
I do not like religion either, but there are some interesting points in some religions views.. in the explaining how everything started but more in why we are here.... but no time for a long story.. just wanted to say that your post was ridiculous and that you should be ashamed of yourself that you do not have respect for others.. especially when nobody did anything wrong to you..

MacLeod

Icedrops, I can see you either love anger, or attention. Watch that the mods don't get you.
...Ok I may have read your primate thing wrong, but that's not a point any more. You're quite intrigueing, saying everything about folk not seeing your point and that eeryone is closed-minded...did it ever occur to you that I said I agreed with you twice? Heck, O2 too? The folks who believed the earth was flat were wrong, but didn't they believe like you that Columbus was the sucker? The history of Man shows that nothing can be certain-heck till recently I thought any idiot who believed the universe was made up of strings was wrong, or that space and time weren't exactly related. Proof for light being a wave was so solid that no-one would believe it was a particle-yet more tests did show that. You sure more tests won't come out?
Yeegad, I don't know whether to worry for you or indulge in myself and laugh at your face. You're getting all hot under the collar and only seeing the things that make you angry without even thinking that we're trying to be civil to you. I'm not gonna waste my time or pride cursing you but you can try-I wonder who'll be the superior mentality here. You seriously need to recap our own posts and think-doubt a little. Mad was right...your attitude since MiM hasn't changed. If we're wrong on it I'll be the first to apologize. What of you? Kid; go join the army or something and learn some discipline.

Oracle2.0

Originally posted by i c 3 d r p z
im pissed cause your acussing me of being closed minded when you are too.
I never accused u of being closed minded, I accused you of being disrespectful to people who believe in something. why do you have to yell at us? I didn't yell at you until you were mean to me and others who had shared their opinion. why are you so angry at people who believe in religon? Mad doesn't like religon but is he yelling and cussing? no, he's saying his opinion in a perfectly decent way. if you yell and cuss like that again, I'll report you, which I should've done the first time you did it.

Jetfire

Ummmmm. I think you need to just calm down there, ic3drpz. Now back to topic... I am sorry freeyourmind. I didn't mean to say what I said on page 2 of this thread. Soz :)

P.S: You go Oracle 2.0! Award winning speech! lol :D

Oracle2.0

*bows*
thank you, thankyou. :D

Madhijs

Originally posted by Jetfire90
Ummmmm. I think you need to just calm down there, ic3drpz. Now back to topic... I am sorry freeyourmind. I didn't mean to say what I said on page 2 of this thread. Soz :)

P.S: You go Oracle 2.0! Award winning speech! lol :D

haha well it is allright after I saw his picture in the pictures of members section I was amazed I ever took him serious :) hahaha no just kidding!!

well I get back on the serious business soon, I am busy at the moment but I want this thread to be active as I think it is an interesting one!!

i c 3 d r p z

Originally posted by Madhijs
ermm icedropz...
lost yourself again.. I remember an thread where you were making the same kinda posts... the thread where you were a believer in the MIAM theory.. also cursing and yelling to people because you were right and the others were wrong!! well november the 4th we will see that not everything that you take for granted is true!!!!
I do not like religion either, but there are some interesting points in some religions views.. in the explaining how everything started but more in why we are here.... but no time for a long story.. just wanted to say that your post was ridiculous and that you should be ashamed of yourself that you do not have respect for others.. especially when nobody did anything wrong to you..

i was expecting worse consequences . i was suprised when i could log in here today. but i've been holding that stuff in. every now and then you just have to let everything out. when i was being nice, you gave a counter. i replyed pretty much nicely, but then you got mad at me for being repetative. it just seemed like you werent listening (which led me to anger) because you were saying i said stuff i didnt say, and misinterpreting me. maybe i was unclear but iono. you cant say there was NO reason to blow my top. its not like i get mad for no reason. you were accussing me of not putting thought into my posts, when i was. you just werent reading the whole thing. i always put thought into my posts. its not what you say but how you say it. you cant say im the only one guilty of having a closed mind here, cause you do too. you acussed me cause i wouldnt admit you COULd be right. cause i dont believe that. you guys have just as closed a mind about religion as i do in evolution.

do you want me to blow up or sumthing? its like you just say things to piss me off. "you were a believer in the MIAM theory.. also cursing and yelling to people because you were right and the others were wrong!! well november the 4th we will see that not everything that you take for granted is true!!!! " do you want me to go crazy? you know what makes me angry (comments like that) and you say them to be argumentive. miam is theory based on facts. on a movie, that can have mistakes. ill admit i could be wrong ( i eventually had to becuz arguments arose, even when i was as nice as possible, when ever i even mentioned it). the movie could be misleading , and me being wrong about that says nothing about my opinions. the movie could be leading me in the wrong direction, its a movie. there is some foreshadowing for MIAM, so if it is wrong, it doesnt say my opinions are all dumb at all. its totally fictional. but evolution is backed up with proof, scientific evidence that is definently true. in both situations, however, it appeared to me you were just ignoring the facts so you wouldnt have to admit you were wrong. when im wrong, ill admit it. when you make me think im wrong, ill admit it. you did neither in either of those two topics, evolution or mim. i will admit it if you make me think otherwise. but there was nothing in either case, substantial enough to change MY mind. maybe to you the facts were really important, but on the most part counter-facts in both topics directed toward me seemed silly.

and ill admit i was acting bad at first, when i first became a member. but up until this outburst, i dont think ive dont anything wrong at all. and i dont hate ALL of you. but its not like you can say there was no reason to do what i did.

MacLeod

Hmm. I can. Mad taunted u, no doubt about it. You can choose not to explode, to ignore the taunts and get on with more relevant points but you let yourself be baited. Besides, it's not like he was the initiater again. Everyone remembers your argument on MiaM and knows your reputation so its no wonder when you start yelling again people just roll their eyes and take you less seriously. No offense Mad :)
Now on your famous theory. I know its right with the proof it has and all but if Rev doesn't come up with that there's no point in saying its still right and the movies're wrong-it's like saying water boils at 90 degrees but blaming the water when it boils at a hundred. The ultimate proof will be in the movie since the movies set the rules. This is remarkably similar to the more old-fashioned religions. No matter how people say there are dinosaur bones and evolution some still believe the world was created a few thousand years ago...now you're sharing a mindset of certain religions! No offense too O2...I'm still not certain if religion is wrong actually...there's still more than enough evidence to support religion.
Now I may be supporting you a little at this point on evolution but note that while evolution is the proof against religion, religion is itself the proof against evolution. Both have questions still unsolved which may be in time. I just want to ask you to leave your mind open to that fact. Like light being a wave and particle!

freeyourmind

Look Ice, all I said was keep an open mind. I'm keeping an open mind and so should you. If you wanna join in on the actual discussion and stop swearing at us, feel free to do so, but please stop wasting our time with all this squealing about what idiots we all are.
Now, back on topic, I'm still waiting for Mad's answers. Or anyone else's for that matter.
Also, do you think there could there be any alternative to evolution apart from the existence of a god?

MacLeod

Hmm. I admit, it's easy disproving theories but hard to make one. I believe Evolution is the closest thing we have, but there might be more refinements to make. There's this theory I might mention about us being planted here either by an alien race or a meteorite blasted out of Mars containing the first bacteria to evolve here...out of point but it is a Genesis idea.
Darn it always cracks me up-you guys played Starcraft? "Evolution Complete"...LOL

Oracle2.0

I'm not posting here anymore...this is all just giving me one big head ache :D

Jetfire

If this is a discussion then carry on DISCUSSING. If this is a fight then take it elsewhere.

Madhijs

Originally posted by freeyourmind
I don't understand. You're saying that the universe is not based on the rules of our world? That doesn't really make sense. I agree that there must be a soul that is not restricted by anything - like god isn't restricted by anything. Get my drift?
well if the soul is not restricted by anything it would be based on different (or no rules) than we have... I guess this universe is build up with bricks created by other rules, i think this universe is one in another one and so on, so on, so on and infinite so on's away it is based on our rules again... (like the universe is infinite..., I think when you fly long enough after infinite time you will be in the same spot.. it is not possible to fly infinite time long with our rules but u should do that with the rules of that ' soul' ).. mmm hope it makes a little sense..
Originally posted by freeyourmind

Interesting thought, but I don't think it works.
{Universe => Humans} is not like {Humans => machines}. Humans live in the universe, machines are created by a humans. It's a different connection.

it is not the same but I guess with our knowledge it is the best visualization we can get to support my thoughts.... like we visualize molecules and atoms ->not that those are realy little balls....

and the other things, yes i think this live is an illusion.. and still I like it... I wrote the next in a different post after shinigami posted that when U beat someone U do it yourself, you want to beat him and than your body responds to those thoughts:
Originally posted by Madhijs
well our mind makes a lot real...

are you in love because there are the right chemicals in your body, or are they there because you are in love?? i think, the chemicals are there and your mind tries to make it real and so it makes you think you are in love... the same as with dreams, your mind tries to make a logic story from totally random? pictures in your mind...

why do you want to beat someone?? well an person makes you arroused somehow, your mind corrects it in your mind as you hate this guy (it is not that you hate this guy and than your body gets arroused).... your mind makes the story logic and makes you wanna beat him up.. but there are some defense systems active so you do not realy do it.. and than the defense systems become inactive, your mind corrects it as it makes you think ahh what the hell!! I just beat him up for real.. and than you beat him up for real... you did not decide to beat him, your body did.. your mind makes it logic to make it real to your brain as you did it so it makes sense... you beating him up will make you hate him more infact.. as your mind has to correct it... why did i beat him?? ooh yeah I HATE HIM!!!

I don't say this is true.. it is just an plausible explanation...
It is all about cause and effect...
there is no free will at all... soul is a meaningless object....
[/B]

it is a post under the thread name: We already have A.I. , in the AI section.... by the way I study psychology and that is the/a reasen that I want everything to be scientific explainable... as otherwise it would not be much of a study i think...

i c 3 d r p z

so youre saying you take me less seriously becuz i wouldnt give up on MIM?

i was getting angry cause you guys werent listening, as you did with this. it seemed like you were ignoring the facts cause you didnt WANt to believe mim. cause you thought it was stupid. you didnt want it to be true, so you wouldnt agree to it, not matter how many facts there were. i dont yell for no reason.

Oracle2.0

really? could've fooled me...(yeah, I know I said I would'nt post here anymore, but I'm bored). from what i've read on this board, you've just been yelling at us like we're morans or something. I'm not gonna get off track and start talking about mim, but you shouldn't force your theories on people.

i c 3 d r p z

i never forced anything !!!! omfg dud. but when ppl make moronic comments ill treat them like morons. its just like what mad said earlier.

"blah blah blah, mim believer....blah blah blah when november 5th comes around we'll see that everything you say isnt true"

comments like that are just said to be argumentive. its like you want me to get angry. unless you've seen revolutions you cant talk like that. i never said anything about, when november 5th comes, i told you so. i tried to convince you, but you were being, in my mind, ignorant. maybe the facts are meaningless to you, but it seemed you were ignoring the facts all together so the story would fit the way you wanted it to.

another comment of that such that i got angry about.

"every argument that supported MIM has been completely proven wrong. i dont even know why we talk about it anymore."

thats a complete lie. every question hasnt been answered. none of mine have. there were countless statements like that, along the same lines. and it makes me angry.

LIKE I SAId. ill admit when im wrong, or when you make me believe im wrong. prove me wrong, and it'll stop me from forcing anything onto anyone. about anything. but with MIM, you didnt do that.

MacLeod

Granted ya didn't bawl about MiM being completely correct, but you do believe it to an annoying degree. We knw you've been making points but people have been making arguments against it that make sense, at least to them. You ask why people don't believe MiM? Why do you? Don't talk about proof and all that; we know there're proof for just about every theory like Gnosticism and where the proof gets shaky you merely dismiss it as minor glitches in the face of "overwhelming evidence".
Icedrops you do have a point believing in MiM but you were getting all preachy and touche about it. Don't say "overwhelming evidence" because almost nothing in the matrix movies has overwhelming evidence for it-you just plain ignored the arguments others have made and in the end all that yelling has made you more of the local steam kettle than a serious theory advocate. I'm sure Mad and all don't doubt MiM so much but they doubt you; and clearly enjoy poking fun at that. I can't really blame them.
You treat us like morons? For the same reason we treat you so. I can't count how many people I've seen out there who believe in a theory so much that they cannot allow themselves to see any possible flaws in it. "Overwhelming evidence" is in most cases subjective. I've noticed how people have attacked your "overwhleming evidence" to recieve "this is irrelevant bullcrap" and other similar anger-filled answers-were you really thinking about other opinions?
People doubt you, fine. You didn't "force" anything, good. Then why do people hate you? Because you made such a huge uproar over what was only a matter of opinion. You did force it. "I can't believe what <insert curse>-s you are-the evidence is all there!!!"...and all that. You'll admit you're wrong when others do? I did? I'm not agreeing with any one thing. Forget about the others and stick to your own thoughts. If its true you won't need to be angry at what others say-sticks and stones and all that.

ae2198

i personally don't believe in evolution to a certain extent. there is something more to the world than just matter and space. those themselves needed to be created by God. evolution is a fact but it was not reason why earth was created neither is it how we have progessed this far. without God evolution is not possible.

i c 3 d r p z

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i swear to god (if there was one) macleod, read my posts with some comprehendsion. let me say, i treat you as a moron becuz you are one. your an idiot. i swear to god your a freakin idiot.

i never, ever said ill admit im wrong when other admit they're wrong. i said ill admit im wrong, when you prove im wrong (with facts, and ... proof) or you make me think im wrong. youve misquoted me 999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 times now. once or twice, alright. but after every single post?????? damn.
"well, thats stupid that you said this, blah blah blah blah blah." WHEN I DIDNT EVEN SAY IT!!!! take some time to read the $hit before you post. dont skim; read it twice if you have to. you acuss me of $hit i didnt even do dud. dont ever misquote me again. EVER EVER AGAIN. i put things in all caps sometimes so dumb****s like you will at least half understand. but i guess youre completely stupid cause you just never get my stuff right.

i never admited to any glitch in the mim theory. cause really, honestly, i dont see any. show me what you think are glitches, and ill show you a really dumb person. people hate me cause i make them feel like the idiots they are.

and if any theory out there has any evidence at all, its miam. give me a more plausible theory. its the only one that even has evidence. the other ones are guess work and nonsense. yes, mim has overwhelming evidence cause its the only theory that actually has evidence.

Madhijs

ice I don't even read your posts anymore.. please stop using this thread as it makes me affraid the mods close it... and I like this thread the best on the whole forum....

people hate you because you are irritating... not because you make us feel dumd... hahaha you make me feel smart instead:)

MIM will not be talked about here.. it was just an example how you can loose yourself... ok I will admit maybe you are right or maybe not.. that discussion ended like a month ago.. íf you have some new point that makes your point stronger start a new thread....

MacLeod

Darn. I'll admit something, your posts are hard to read when I have to sort through so much trash. I was wrong about quoting you, but seeing the real line again makes me feel like I shouldn't have tried. Sigh.
Ice-I mean Steam, you remind me of some famous guy's line that went "The only thing worse than a fool is one who thinks he's right." We went through MiM so much that frankly I've forgotten completely what was discussed; only that you were coming up with weak replies to challenges and ignoring good replies to your own. You want proof? I won't bother giving it to you: YOU go look back at it YOURSELF. You're the worst, most aggressive thing this forum's seen since FF and that Gnostic advocate.
Wow. You've yelled. You've cursed. All the confessions you've got however is here from me: I didn't read your posts well. I'm sorry but looking back it sure didn't look like it was worth it. I can't believe I wasted my time trying to be nice to you and agreeing with some of your views. I'd recommend only one thing to you now then. The "Days left to Revolutions" Thread, 'cos that's how many days till you'll be too ashamed to step back in here. Oh yeah now I'm sounding like Mad :D Sorry you've just lost your last civilized listener. Now that means something about you: think on it.

Oracle2.0

hey ice-u spelled 'comprehension' wrong...

i c 3 d r p z

read, i swear its pretty nice. if you snap at me for this, i give up:

mad, if i did start i new thread, IF ANYONE STARTED A NEW thread, ppl would tell them to shut up about miam already. you noe thats true, no matter how good the evidence was.

and macleod, dont make any excuses for your stupidity. you've misquoted me so many times, dont make dumb excuses for it. i hate you, but i still read your posts. have i ever misquoted you?

and macleod, every where you go, it seems that one of your main goals is to keep the conversation organized. anyone that says something controversal, you immediately call them out on it and give them a lecture. and thats not just with me. thats goes for everywhere in this forum, not just here in this thread. but it is controversy that makes this forum more intersting. until this thread, i was getting kinda bored. admit, that there arent as many interesting topics as there used to be, mainly cause there's no more mudd slinging or heated debates. ADMIT IT !!!

but seriously, you misquoted me way before i got pissy. its one of the main things that led me to be this pissy. and you say stuff that you noe is gonna make me mad. saying stuff like, "calm down ice, no need to yell." when i wasnt even yelling. i guess its because that i state my opinion with some strength that ppl snap back at me. and plz dont say, "its becuz you're stupid that ppl dont take you as seriously." cause i put more insight than anyone in my stuff.

this has been going on forever. i ADMITTED be acting ****ed up when i was first a memeber, and acting ****ed up as of late. and i acted ****ed up to mad a LOOONG time ago cause he was acting the same way. running his mouth and saying stuff like, "you still believe in MIM? thats cute. when november 5th comes around it will be shaming time for you." mad said this after i stated some facts that I thought showed miam to be true. i didnt yell. i remember this time clearly, but it happened a bunch of times. you talk about me putting down other ppl's theories? you guys made me feel like it was me against everyone. and mim WAS a popular theory, you noe i wasnt alone. you singled me out, brushed off my stuff, just cause i wouldnt give up on what i thought you guys were ignoring. other ppl simply said, "yeah. they're right. MIM really IS dumb. im not going to belive it anymore." thats just not my style. you didnt even convert them with facts either. you dubbed miam as stupid, and they didnt want to be thought of as stupid too, so they joined in and disregarded MIM also. you NOE that this is pretty much the truth, on a LOT if accounts. im just not like that tho. at first i acted like a b!tch, yeah. that was like the first week i was here. but then i continued to state my theories in the best way I noe how. i didnt say anything when ppl put me down. i called them out on it, but i didnt say stuff back. and be serious, you acted messed up toward ME a grip load of times.

now if i might say so, ive put in some pretty insightful things into this forum while ive been here. be honest, a lot of my stuff is interesting. there's been times when ive gotten out of hand, like everyone here. every one in here has gotten into a heated discussion with someone. and you guys NOE that its a little more interesting when the discussions get more and more debating.

i noe you read my post, mad. even if you dont wanna reply and make it look like you didnt.

Oracle2.0

well, ice, from what I've seen most of those heated discussions have been with YOU. wait, you ENJOY mud slinging and heated debates? and you want others to feel the same way? "admit, that there arent as many interesting topics as there used to be, mainly cause there's no more mudd slinging or heated debates. ADMIT IT !!!"-QUOTE. YOU ARE SUCH A HYPOCRITE!!! we single u out becasue you seem to think ur right all the time. then u single mac and mad out because they post opinions. THEY ARE WAY NICER THAN YOU'VE EVER BEEN!!! ur also pretty sure of urself: "if i might say so, ive put in some pretty insightful things into this forum while ive been here. be honest, a lot of my stuff is interesting."-QUOTE no, ur stuff is annoying. i don't see why the mods just don't do us a favor and give you a referral. or better yet, you could CHANGE YOUR ATTITUDE!!!

i c 3 d r p z

i give up.

yes, heated debates are fun. but acting like your better than some one isnt. you try to tell someone something, then resort to calling there ideas stupid when they dont give in. thats whats going on now. with you, and with me. i put some firmness in my posts, and you snap back by saying, "calm down ice". you respond by saying, "dont force you ideas on ppl ice". "try posting a little nicer ice" before, it was i say one thing, they respond with counter arguments. i try to counter them. thats what i call a heated debate and mud slinging. you guys could be as close minded as you want, thats what makes a good debate. but then you start acussing ME of what you guys have been doing this whole time? naw....

is thinking im rite a bad thing? i will admit when im wrong. you are the same exact way as me, except "nicer". damn. "oh yeah, your idea is REALLY good, but i have this idea" thats you. i just plain out say, i think your wrong. whts the matter with that? you want me to say im wrong when i think im not? i do not understand you!!

now, i say something you guys acuss me of being close minded, and forceful. damn. is it becuz i wont give up or what? and if anything is annoying, its reading the same $hit OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER again. i think differently so its annoying to you? riite. my additude has been fine up until now. you think i yell and cuss for no reason?

DO NOT POST WORDS IN CAPS!!!! im not the one that needs it, you are.

and ive lasted this long. the mods have never done anything. but if they were to now, i understand cause i just dont care anymore. im letting my feelings out.

just tell me straight up. right now, what you want from me. you want me to be nice and agree with everyone, FINE ! you want me to just give up after ppl give counters to my arguments, fine. you want me to be to not say what i mean, fine. you want me to say my opinions like this, "umm, i have this idea but im not sure. it could be right or wrong. you decide." FIIINE !!! the more firm ppl are, more the i take them seriously. if they back up there theories with examples, and facts, i take them more seriously. the more confident they are, the more likely i am to believe them. the more confident they are, the more i think about what im going to say. if ppl are unsure, like the way i showed above, i dont take them seriosuly at all. but i guess this forum doesnt allow people to speak loudly. i never said anything BAd, i just say my ideas with confidence. but if thats not allowed in your guy's mind, fine then. i just give up. i loose. there's no reasoning with you. you're right, and i guess there's nothing i can say to change your mind.

Oracle2.0

*puts face in her hands* i'm don't even wanna try after that last one...ugh, where's my asprin? here's what i want from you ice: I want you to debate, to contridict. I'm sick of doing the same thing over and over again. let's comprimise: I won't post here anymore if u don't, deal?

i c 3 d r p z

omg i hate you. your an idiot. you are. there's no way to get through to you. i ask what you want me to do, you act like a lil b!tch. there's just no reasoning with you. when you dont have anything to say, just dont post. dont force yourself to post something stupid like that. if you dont got **** to say, just shut up. seriously.

im giving you a headache, but you dont stop coming here. you want to read what i say. if you didnt, you would be posting here to the extent that you are.

none of you are even listening.

ae2198

ice, for a person so smart you sure do use vulgar and offensive words to articulate.

Oracle2.0

I try to reason and you spit in my face, and I'm the moran? yeah, okay, whatever u say ice. we are listening, I think ur the one who isn't listening. I said i was sick of us yelling at each other. what do you do? you say i'm acting like a b!tch. what's ur problem? I am sick of u just ranting on and on. you know why I keep posting here? it's like the police and drug busts: they break drug rings, arrest deals, yet it hardly makes a dent. why don't we just make drugs legal? cause giving in is just too darn easy.

cheers to trying to get along,
O2

MacLeod

Sigh...Ice, make whatever accusations you want. I'm sorry I made you mad but I guess we're even.
You're right: you saw me everywhere balancing and organizing the discussion. I dunno if most see it as useful, but I sure don't see why you're so pissed about it. Controversy yes, strong ideas yes, but what's so good about them being yelled across? Oh you are yelling, me good man. Caps and curses are a good indication and you do post those. A flame war degrades a discussion very quickly and your reputation on MiM shows it-like I said no-one 'cept Teriken (bless his soul) takes you seriously any more. I'll admit it: this is the most stimulating forum I've ever seen. I'll also say one thing: people like you spoil it. Have i ever insisted you were wrong and that MiM was going to crash and burn? I feel-rightly so-that no one even the folk who don't believe it has a right to be completely correct. I don't agree with Mad. But I agree with O2: you're making people like me disturbed at the level of hate you're doling it.
I've said it already: sticks and stones. Forget what Mad said about Nov 5-heck forget what I said. We did that to spite you because in your "good intentions" to "inform" us you did a whole lotta that. Texabara recently posted something on the woes of his country but admitted he was very antagonistic to gain the needed attention. It wasn't very nice but his motive is understandable. Your motive is a conundrum to me: that you're right in whatever you say, no matter what others say. And you do that by out-yelling everyone. Why did you have to poke people where it hurts? Does it make you feel good? Revenge? I never wanted to hurt you from the outset but you started this. I helped remind folks you may be right but you stab me in the back.
Why am I bothering to tell you this? 'Cos I seriously am too nice to take your hint. Damn you're a tough one. You listen, damnit. You lay off O2 for asking you to listen and you stop drowning out the sense here. Your sig notes the value of individuality. I noted yours; admit it. Note ours.

i c 3 d r p z

o2, im sorry for calling you names, but you were being mean to me right then. the two previous posts (before the last one) i wasnt THAT bad. yes i still cussed, and the post had a hostile tone, haha, yeah. but what i was saying wasnt argumentive; i was telling you how i felt. and after i blew up once, earlier in this thread, nobody would let me speak. after every post i was attacked, so i snapped back. it was me against everyone (once again...dammit) so i was TRYING to calm down but it was hard!! you guys wouldnt let me calm down. after i blew up the first time here, you just took everything i said and made it as worse as it could be. cause in some of the recents posts, i havent done anything that bad, but you still blew it out of proportion.

and, i wasnt getting angry at you, macleod, for keeping order throughout the forum. i was saying, sometimes its good to have disagreements, cause it really shows both sides of arguments. i noe i can get really caught up in debates here, but its all in good fun. it may seem like im yelling in some posts, but i dont mean anything by it. just dont make me feel stupid by saying the kind of stuff you've been saying. this thread, the evolution one, is the worst ive ever been. you know i dont act like this everywhere.

and it really hurt my feelings, O2, when you said that all my stuff was annoying. some definently, but you didnt give me any credit at all. i said, " if i may say so, ive put some insightful thoughts into this forum." you said, "no. your stuff is annoying. i wish the admins would just do us all a favor and give you a referall." now how do you expect me not to call you a b!tch after that? cause i put thought into the things i say (definently less into threads where its this crazy but..) and for you to say that makes me really....pissed off. you knew that would piss me off, but you said it anyway. comments like that will get a negative retort (and justifyily so if i may say....) dont act like im the only one throwing insults around. im just being more vlugar with mine....