Do Not Believe The Architect

Believe that there is/was an Architect, but do not believe what he says is true. Revolutions will prove that the Architect's beliefs are fiction. Specifically, it will be shown that despite the level of control that is displayed by the Architect in the Matrix, the Architect will be unable to control or predict what will happen, due to the rapidly changes in human society.

i believe him !!

no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no

nah...he's truthful. he screwed up with Neo though, for sure

What makes you think that a self-interested program is being truthful? Basically, Neo says that his ignorance of the five former versions of the Matrix means one of two things: (1) that no one told him about it; or that (2) no one knows. Don't forget that there is a third possibility - the Architect is lying!

yes. but I do not believe in that option. I take it how I see it, and that is the Arc did not lie

heck no you cant trust him man look at the orical she was just another way to keep the one under control with trust. ill bet my money that so is he

the architect is telling the truth.

and the oracle? she isnt a method of control. she noes whats going to happen becuz its fate. everything is predetermined. there is no such thing as choice. its an illusion between those with power and those w/o. it seemed that neo had a choice to go to the source, but in fact he was being led there the whole time. all the struggle is just an illusion of choice. the oracle noes whats going to happen, becuz it can happen no other way. its fate. how else can she noe?

i like this information. i really do.

it seemed that neo had a choice to go to the source, but in fact he was being led there the whole time. all the struggle is just an illusion of choice. the oracle noes whats going to happen, becuz it can happen no other way. its fate. how else can she noe?

I would disagree with the idea that everything in the Matrix is predetermined. There is such a thing as choice. The thing is, each choice leads to a new set of choices. This is called the "strands of starlight" theory. (google it)

The Oracle APPEARS to forsee the future because she is designed to see the multiple possibilities (i.e. the choices we MIGHT make in a certain situation) and hypothesize as to their outcome based on past information collected. The Oracle always gives the listener a choice. It may or may not know EXACTLY how the new owner of this information will take its purposely vague, interperate-as-you-will postulations, but it has a good idea as to the multiple responses possible.

The Architect and the Keymaker and several others spoke of purpose. Allowing choice is the Oracle's purpose. In every way, it impliments its programming.


The Taoist belief system speaks of that idea that nothing should be surprising because anything that happens, was obviously possible. The Oracle may be a part of the controll, but unwittingly. Choice is the programming. Free will for the program may or may not be part of its existence. I suppose we'll find out.

if the one had a choice to go to the source, how would the machines noe that he would get to the source so the matrix could continue running? it is inevitable the one reach the source.

throughout the entire movie, characters kept telling neo that there is no such thing as choice.

"choice is an illusion. created by those with power, and those without."

"you've already made the choice"

they plain out say it. choice is an illusion. are you saying its a lie or what? cause if there really was choice, the one might not reach the source and the machines would die. it is inevitable.

morpheus:
"what happened happened and couldnt have happened in any other way."

its all predetermined. everything.

smith:
"it is inevitable"

what is inevitable? he keeps saying that.

the merovingian's speech entirly says that. plain out. no riddles. choice is an illusion. maybe he was lying but i doubt it. it is fate. one of the main themes in the matrix movies. its all fate. it has to happen a certain way, and can happen in no other.

When I first saw M2 I didnt understand the architech scene so I thought that the architech was trying to get neo to go out the door he did. I thought that the door he didnt go in was a way to destroy the matrix and the architech didnt want that so he controlled him by using trinity and I thought all the other former ones had chosen that door to save their love one like that was the control mechanism. when I read the transcript and that the architech was trying to get him to go in the door he didnt go through it confused me because the architech seemed quite please that he chose the door he did. the camera zooms in on the arch's face and he smiles like it's supposed to tell you something like its foreshadowing something. I dont think everything is as it seems and the arch is not telling the whole truth. I dont think that everything he said was a lie though because that was so much to absorb that it would suck if they just threw it in your face after you got your head around it and said it was all a big lie.but I think the arch was trying to get neo to go through the door he did because he had a smirk on his face and the wach. obviously wanted you to notice it.

i dont think the arhitect lied. Basically because he has no reason to lie. Also, he is a program, and programs cant lie, it wouldnt make sense. I think he told Neo "exactly what he needed to hear."

There's always so much human arrogance in these discussions! If AI were to exist, why not could it lie? If you have the capability to be self-aware, you are therefore capable of CHOOSING to tell to truth or not. If telling the truth = death, wouldn't a sentient being choose to lie?

My last reply here perhaps was not explained to its fullest:

"It couldn't have happened any other way." This follows Taoist thinking. If something happened in the past, it finality has already ocurred, and discussing what else could have happend is pointless. You must move on from where that event in the past has placed you and make a new set of choices based on the outcome of your last choice. Almost all of the W'Bros ideas come from religion and spirituality. It would be wise to research Native American, Buddhist, Shinto (sp?), and Taoist principles if you want some insight into the whole duality of these questions we pose here.

No, computer programs cannot lie...just like they cant predict a human's view of a perfect world. A program can only do what it is "programmed" to do. So either the architect told Neo the truth, or he told Neo what he thought was the truth because that was the knowledge he was programmed with. Seriously, why would he lie? Machines do not know the difference between what is right and wrong so they cant make distinctions between the two. As i said before...the architect told Neo "exactly what he needed to hear."

No, computer programs cannot lie...just like they cant predict a human's view of a perfect world. So either the architect told Neo the truth, or he told Neo what he thought was the truth because that was the knowledge he was programmed with. Seriously, why would he lie? Machines do not know the difference between what is right and wrong so they cant make distinctions between the two. As i said before...the architect told Neo "exactly what he needed to hear."

Ah! I like your ying to my yang, Homertrix!

I understand what you are saying about "A program can only do what it is "programmed" to do." From our frame of reference, you're absolutely right. Unfortunately we can not truly comprehend how far AI can/will progress. Technologically, we are on the edge of a AI revolution- or a precipice. If AI is allowed to develop naturally (which some people believe it should), who is to say that it could not exceed the sum of its programming? Artificial intelligence that can expand well beyond its original programming is a pipe dream at the moment, but who is to say we won't someday see an AI "lifeform" grow (intelectually) like that of the Doctor on Star Trek:Voyager? Also, machines like this may develop their own "morality" based on what patterns they see in nature. Chances are not good that they would copy our sense of morality with its inherent inefficencies. Lord, I can't spell.
I love these discussions!

ty brazmunkee...but i disagree that AI can eventually learn the difference between right and wrong. The human brain is more complex then anything. Yes a computer can advance over time, but lets remember the basic components of a computer...like memory, and processor speed. These are limits which a computer cant exceed...no matter how advanced. After 10,000 years of human development, we have not even scratched the surface of human potential.

i just realized that there is really no point to my last post.

Yes a computer can advance over time, but lets remember the basic components of a computer...like memory, and processor speed. These are limits which a computer cant exceed...no matter how advanced. After 10,000 years of human development, we have not even scratched the surface of human potential.

"Right and wrong don't exist, thinking makes it so." Someone said this, maybe a teacher of mine quoting someone. Love that public education!

Absolutely! The physical limits of computers are becoming apparent to us as we type these dribbles! However, the physical limits of what we CURRENTLY define as computers is what is becoming apparent. Limits have always been relative. The quest for quantum computers and computers with efficient microfluidic processors may someday prove fruitful. What we now call a computer would quickly become a relic of the past. Don't forget that those that came before us thought that this technology we take for granted, would never happen.

Lack of historical sense is the family failing of all philosophers.
-- from Nietzsche's Human, all too Human, s.2, R.J. Hollingdale transl

Just my POV

If the Architect had to say something was "blue," when it was really "red," in order to get Neo to do what he wanted, the Architect would have said it was blue, even though he knew it was not true. Some ask why the Architect would lie. I ask why the Architect would tell the truth.

Originally posted by TheRealOne
If the Architect had to say something was "blue," when it was really "red," in order to get Neo to do what he wanted, the Architect would have said it was blue, even though he knew it was not true. Some ask why the Architect would lie. I ask why the Architect would tell the truth.


The architect does not know the difference between right and wrong, between the truth and a lie. Its a program. It does what it was programmed to do. So either the architect told the truth, or he told neo what he thought was the truth. A program lying is like a glitch. You have to get it thru your minds that the architect is not human.

The Architect is a form of Artificial Intelligence. As defined by Webster's, Intelligence is the capacity to know; knowledge imparted or acquired. The Architect "knows" how to lie. Otherwise, he would just be Artificial.

Originally posted by TheRealOne
The Architect is a form of Artificial Intelligence. As defined by Webster's, Intelligence is the capacity to know; knowledge imparted or acquired. The Architect "knows" how to lie. Otherwise, he would just be Artificial.



You just said the architect was AI. He is artificial, hence artificial intelligence. By dictionary.com, artificial intelligence is defined as the ability of a computer or other machine to perform those activities that are normally thought to require intelligence.
He is a program. He doesnt know anything except what he is programmed to know. A program cant be told what is the truth or what is a lie because it would not know when or when not to tell the truth.

If A.I. only knew and could only do things that it was programmed to do, don't you think the humans would've been able to have complete control over the machines? The A.I. the humans created spawned a whole race of machines. Obviously, the humans did not program it to know how to do that. So how hard would it be for A.I. to lie?

Originally posted by A5A777
If A.I. only knew and could only do things that it was programmed to do, don't you think the humans would've been able to have complete control over the machines? The A.I. the humans created spawned a whole race of machines. Obviously, the humans did not program it to know how to do that. So how hard would it be for A.I. to lie?




Why is it that everyone think he lied? What conceivable reason can there be aside from we just dont want it to be true. Does anyone remember the oracle telling Neo he wasn't the One? What she said wasn't a lie because at the time Neo wasn't, he didnt believe in it. The Oracle told neo "EXACTLY WHAT HE NEEDED TO HEAR." Just like the architect did.

You say that the Architect is AI and that AI has the ability to perform those activities that are normally thought to require intelligence. But, then you say the Architect cannot tell a lie because it wouldn't know when to tell a truth or when to tell a lie. Essentially, you are saying the Architect does not have the intelligence to tell a lie. If you listen to what you are saying, you would realize that you are contradicting yourself. The Architect has the intelligence to determine when to tell a truth or when to tell a lie because he is intelligent, albeit artificially.

Originally posted by TheRealOne
You say that the Architect is AI and that AI has the ability to perform those activities that are normally thought to require intelligence. But, then you say the Architect cannot tell a lie because it wouldn't know when to tell a truth or when to tell a lie. Essentially, you are saying the Architect does not have the intelligence to tell a lie. If you listen to what you are saying, you would realize that you are contradicting yourself. The Architect has the intelligence to determine when to tell a truth or when to tell a lie because he is intelligent, albeit artificially.




Originally posted by TheRealOne
The Architect is a form of Artificial Intelligence. As defined by Webster's, Intelligence is the capacity to know; knowledge imparted or acquired. The Architect "knows" how to lie. Otherwise, he would just be Artificial.




Actually you contradicted yourself. Listen...no matter how "intelligent" AI can become...it cant become intelligent enough to undertsand human emotions or morality. A 2 yr old has intelligence, but the kid sitll cant tell what is right from wrong or what is the truth or what isnt. As is said, you dont want to believe what the architect said. Neo will find a way...just not the way he first thought.

Again, we are vastly more adaptable and intelligent than the computing machines in existense right now. But who, 30 years ago, would have thought the machines would be capable of doing what they are doing right now. A TI-85 calculator would have been faster and more efficient than the "super" computers of yesteryear.

Our consciousness is made up of an infinite number of electrical impulses and conncections that we have only begun to understand. Biometrics is one path that computer designers are looking at. Imagine a computer based on the principles of neurons! Why not, could a computer surpass our ability to evolve and therefore move up the evolutionary scale to become the dominant "species" on the planet? How unbelieveably arrogant of us to believe that we will always be the superior form of life here! How arrogant indeed! Life doesn't need blood, or the ability to do a list of things either. The current definition Western Society ("Science") uses for life is insulting to those of us who have evolved far past that world. It was a good starting point, let's move on now, eh?

To call the architect a "just" a program (from our POV and temporal reference point) is akin to me calling Lance Armstrong a monkey.

Just wondering.. Isn't Morpheus always speaking about choice? Then, why he says that "What happened couldn't have happened in any other way." or something like that. Because that sounds like talking that there is no choice, things just roll on and so on and it sounds odd because he is always talking about choices, that doesn't "lead in to the same place". :) Or at least that's what I think..

Originally posted by brazmunkee
Again, we are vastly more adaptable and intelligent than the computing machines in existense right now. But who, 30 years ago, would have thought the machines would be capable of doing what they are doing right now. A TI-85 calculator would have been faster and more efficient than the "super" computers of yesteryear.

Our consciousness is made up of an infinite number of electrical impulses and conncections that we have only begun to understand. Biometrics is one path that computer designers are looking at. Imagine a computer based on the principles of neurons! Why not, could a computer surpass our ability to evolve and therefore move up the evolutionary scale to become the dominant "species" on the planet? How unbelieveably arrogant of us to believe that we will always be the superior form of life here! How arrogant indeed! Life doesn't need blood, or the ability to do a list of things either. The current definition Western Society ("Science") uses for life is insulting to those of us who have evolved far past that world. It was a good starting point, let's move on now, eh?

To call the architect a "just" a program (from our POV and temporal reference point) is akin to me calling Lance Armstrong a monkey.



As i said, no matter how advanced a computer is, it still has limits, just like in the matrix. And no matter how advanced a computer cannot understand morality or emotion.

Originally posted by keymaker_0
Just wondering.. Isn't Morpheus always speaking about choice? Then, why he says that "What happened couldn't have happened in any other way." or something like that. Because that sounds like talking that there is no choice, things just roll on and so on and it sounds odd because he is always talking about choices, that doesn't "lead in to the same place". :) Or at least that's what I think..


"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking it."

lieing to a computer isnt about emotions or morality. It lies only to benefit itself exactly what a computer does. The architech has already lied to him. He has created a LIE for Zion so they can get Neo to the source a reload the matrix. A computer can tell when something isnt the truth like if Neo asked the arch. a question and he didnt know what is true or not he couldnt say yes or no. If they were given the facts couldnt they compare it to another set of facts and see if it was true or false. you talk like these AI are your PC. The machines in the Matrix have far serpassed human intellegence. If they were able to create a matrix and do all the stuff they did to get neo to the source then im sure they are capable of fabricating something that isnt true. You say that they can only do what they are programmed to do. were they programmed to revolt and start killing humans and turn us all into batteries? No. because they write their own programming they make their own choices and that includes the choice to lie or tell the truth determing which benifits them. the only thing that separates the AI from the humans is emotion.

Thank you, Jbox

You articulated a point I, alas, could not. You're absolutely right! Even a current-day PC knows that 01010101 does not equal 10101010. If it knows multiple sets of facts, and it can hypothesize about multiple outcomes, it is capable of lying. Homer, brotherman, these sentinals are not your Quake II, or Microsoft Word, or Zip drive. The machines in the movie are as far beyond today's computers as we are beyond our dinosaur ancestors.

Free your mind, bro. Free your mind.

Originally posted by brazmunkee
Thank you, Jbox

You articulated a point I, alas, could not. You're absolutely right! Even a current-day PC knows that 01010101 does not equal 10101010. If it knows multiple sets of facts, and it can hypothesize about multiple outcomes, it is capable of lying. Homer, brotherman, these sentinals are not your Quake II, or Microsoft Word, or Zip drive. The machines in the movie are as far beyond today's computers as we are beyond our dinosaur ancestors.

Free your mind, bro. Free your mind.

youre welcome man. thanks for the comp (short for complement but there is no point of righting a short for complement when im righting all this stuff in the parenthesis) " free your mind bro free your mind ...... LIMH(laughing in my head). I can imagine Keanu saying that

Sharp wit, that was my intention exactly.

I sorta believe him, but i sorta don't as well.

sorta believe who?

How do you know that?

How do I know that you cannot believe the Architect? Because the Architect would not have wanted for Neo to choose the door to Neo's left if it meant the destruction of the human species. If so, everyone in the Matrix would die. Sure, maybe the machines are prepared to exist on such a power-level, but they would rather not. The Architect knew that Neo would choose the door on Neo's left because he was aware of Neo's love for Trinity and that Neo would try to save her. Thus, you cannot believe the Architect when he says that the door Neo chooses will end the human species. He directed Neo towards this door, yet it would not give the Architect the result he desired. Therefore, the Architect must be lying.

Originally posted by Jbox
. when I read the transcript and that the architech was trying to get him to go in the door he didnt go through it confused me because the architech seemed quite please that he chose the door he did. the camera zooms in on the arch's face and he smiles like it's supposed to tell you something

I take that back I just barrowed someones bootleg and the arch doesnt really seem to be pleased but rather making fun of Neos decision to go out that door. I dont think he was trying to persuade him to go out that door though it seems like that at first glance but rather trying to show how stupid it would be to try and save her.

Originally posted by i c 3 d r p z
the architect is telling the truth.

and the oracle? she isnt a method of control. she noes whats going to happen becuz its fate. everything is predetermined. there is no such thing as choice. its an illusion between those with power and those w/o. it seemed that neo had a choice to go to the source, but in fact he was being led there the whole time. all the struggle is just an illusion of choice. the oracle noes whats going to happen, becuz it can happen no other way. its fate. how else can she noe?

i like this information. i really do.

Just like the thing with the vaise... she knew he was going to knock over the vaise whether she told him or not so she tells him that to keep him thinking on fate. But if all her prohpecies are going to be fullfilled, then there are a few that havent: Morpheus or Neo will die. It will happen, the oracle has predicted it.

What if Neo going through the door he chose was actually Neo being reinserted into The Source? The Architect's room showed that they had a great deal of information available about everyone and have shown through the Matrix that they can create any world they so choose. So why couldn't the door out of the Architect's room lead into a pre programmed reality: one in which Neo reinserts his program into the Matrix without his even knowing? All the time he would believe he was in control (outside the control of the Matrix). He did say. "(Dude,) Wait! Something's different this time, I can feel them." He did stop the Sentinels in their tracks. So is the world he is now in just another facet of the Matrix?

Whirly-bird as the mind goes in these discussions!

I don't think the architect lies as such...
He's just not giving all the information there is to give.
Because he wants Neo to think there's only two choices: save Trinity or save mankind.

Either, the Architect lies, the Oracle lies, or both. The Architect told Neo that if Neo chose the door to his right, it would lead to the source. As we all know, instead Neo chose the door to his left. In "Enter the Matrix," the Oracle explained that Neo touched the source, his mind separated from his body, and that he now lies between "your world" and "our world." Clearly, the statements between the Oracle and the Architect are inconsistent. One of them is not being truthful. I think the Oracle is correct when she says that Neo touched the source. Therefore, the Architect was lying when he said that the door to Neo's right would lead to the source, when in reality the door to Neo's left led to the source.

I think the architect WAS the source, but that if he went to the right, it would immeaditly reset zion is MIAM is true... other wise the architect isnt the source but a fork in the road.

If the Architect is the source, then the Architect lied when he said that the door to Neo's right would lead to the source (i.e., it would actually be leading away from the source). Either way, the Architect is lying.

Keeping in mind that the Architect lies, consider this part of his conversation with Neo:

The Architect - The matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is the sixth version.

*Again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Five versions? Three? I've been lied too. This is bull****."*

Neo - There are only two possible explanations: either no one told me, or no one knows.

Architect - Precisely. * * *

Not precisely. There is a third explanation. Neo has been lied to. This is bull****. The matrix is not older than Neo knows. This is not the sixth version.

Perhaps the truth is that Neo is the first and only anomoly. Perhaps when others proclaim that Neo is "the One," they are correct in that he is the one and only anomoly.

Perhaps... But what if Neo turned around and walked out the door? Thatd be kinda funny, he just be like...

"You know what? I think you look like Colonol Sanders... AND I DONT CARE ABOUT What you THINK I CARE ABOUT! I HATE YOU. Your fried chicken sucks and the food in the Matrix is even worse."

*Neo turns around and walks out door he came in.*

You cannot believe the Architect if what the Oracle says is true. They completely contradict one another.

During M1, Morpheous explained that there was a man born inside the matrix who had the power to change and remake the Matrix as he saw fit. This man also freed the first of "us" and taught "us the truth." Morpheous then exclaims that after this man died, "the Oracle prophecised his return and that his coming would hail the destruction of the Matrix, end the war, bring freedom to our people."

However, the 2 scenarios the Architect provides to Neo do not reflect this prophecy. On the one hand, the prime program is reinserted and Zion is rebuilt with 23 individuals (i.e., there is no destruction of the Matrix, the war ends temporarily, and humans are still enslaved). On the other hand, the Matrix crashes, everyone connected to the Matrix is killed, and Zion is exterminated (i.e., there is a destruction of the Matrix, the war ends permanently, and no one is free because everyone is dead).

Neither of these scenarios will result in the destruction of the Matrix, the end of the war, and freedom to humans, as the Oracle prophecised.

I'd just like to comment on a question keymaker made.

Originally posted by keymaker_0
Just wondering.. Isn't Morpheus always speaking about choice? Then, why he says that "What happened couldn't have happened in any other way." or something like that. Because that sounds like talking that there is no choice, things just roll on and so on and it sounds odd because he is always talking about choices, that doesn't "lead in to the same place". :) Or at least that's what I think..

This was discussed somewhere before-Morpheus isn't invoking fate when he said that, he was actually giving a famous theory a chance to appear as an Easter Egg-I can't remember what it is now but I now know Existantialism isn't the word..."We know we are here only because we are here to know we are here." He wasn't exactly talking about the future in the way fate does but of the past: what's done is done and there're no other possibilities-no use dwelling on them.
Oh, and a warm welcome to the forum, brazmunkee. Enjoy yer romp!

The oracle didnt say that he went into the source but that "he touched the source." It sounds like his body barely got on the edge of it or something. Maybe because the architech's room is so close to the source that it affected Neo some way. I know. Im stupid. you dont have to tell me.