The Popper Theory

Some believe that Zion is the real world. Others believe it is another Matrix or layer of the Matrix. I believe that it is another layer of the Matrix - created as another level of control. I know this topic has been discussed thoroughly, so I will not discuss why I have this belief. However, the question then becomes, if there is a Matrix within a Matrix, how can one escape from Zion? The answer is Popper, the child from the animatrix (Kid's Story), that awoke in Zion after taking a leap of faith. Neo and Trinity referred to Popper's awakening in Zion as "self-substantiation," something they never knew existed. I believe that Popper will play a crucial role in Revolutions, as he will have the ability to awaken beyond Zion and to awaken others. This theory is also substantiated by the Oracle, while she is having a conversation with Ghost in Enter the Matrix. The conversation reads:

Ghost - Can you tell me what happened to you? [Referring to why the Oracle now looks different]

The Oracle - Two programs that I trusted sold the termination code of my original shell to the Merovingian.

Ghost - Why did they do that?

The Oracle - For love... For the life of their child.

Ghost - You knew about it, and yet you let it happened?

The Oracle - I had to...

Ghost - Why?

The Oracle - Because the child is important. I can't tell you why, but I believe that one day, the child will change both our world and your world forever.

Ghost - Is that why you called for me?

The Oracle - No... I am trying to prepare those that stand in the frontlines of our coming trial. We stand upon the edge of a precipice, the fall from which we will not return. Each of us must find courage, when we are most afraid to do what we must... That is our only hope.

Although I believe Popper is human and this would make a human the child of two programs, I also believe that programs can have human children numerous ways. Perhaps some exiled programs attempt to live normal human lives and adopt children, or perhaps they are assigned a child when they imitate intercourse and conceive (after all, no one can really reproduce in the Matrix - it would require the machines taking semen from the male and inserting it into the egg of the female).

Nevertheless, the Oracle talks of the importance of the child and how the child will change both of the worlds forever. We know that Popper is very special because he is the only one ever known to self-substantiate. Also, when the Oracle says: "We stand upon the edge of a precipice, the fall from which we will not return. Each of us must find courage, when we are most afraid to do what we must... That is our only hope," she seems to be referring to the same actions that Popper took. A precipice can be defined as a dangerous condition or a vertical rock face. When Popper was standing on the roof of the school, he was standing upon the edge of a precipice (a vertical rock face - a concrete building). This was a fall from which he will never return, since his body in the Matrix actually died when he self-substantiated, as indicated by the gravestone and the funeral. Undoubtedly, Popper's actions took courage and he did it because he had faith that he would awaken in Zion. Faith is premised upon hope (humankind's greatest strength and greatest weakness according to the Architect).

Popper's faith and hope will play a critical role in revolutions, as Popper will have the ability to take another leap of faith, and to awaken beyond Zion. Somehow, this will change both world's forever.

...a very refreshing one too. Very strong else well-I can't see anywhere to crack. This might also prove to be the middle ground in our MiM arguments-both are in essence true!
Stay tuned here folks...a huge discussion might be brewing...

It is a great theory. However, I just have one little thing.....if Popper is so important, wouldn't we have seen a little more of him in Reloaded? You know, us guys only know who he is because we're all crazy fans and watched the Animatrix. But for everyone else out there who has a life.....won't this just be really confusing? Just think......'Oh, okay, the messiah was that kid that I don't remember, who bugged Neo in M2?'

Don't worry, I'm just picky because I really don't want Popper to be the real 'One'. I think it would be a huge anticlimax.

Maybe we should think of Neo as the Anomoly of the Anomolies, and that he is one of the many that have formed the path for the One. Don't forget that, even though the Oracle calls Neo "the One," the Oracle is a program that tells people what they need to hear - and Neo needs to hear that he is "the One" in order pave the path for another. Neo may be the Anomoly of the Anomolies because no former Anomoly has ever paved the path for the Real One.

Moreover, although Popper does not appear often in Reloaded, I believe that his appearance is not just by happenstance. Do not forget that not even Neo "self-substantiated."

Popper is very similar to Neo, but unlike Neo, Popper also possesses faith. Remember when Mr. Anderson (Neo) was first being chased by the Agents in M1, Neo climbed out onto the edge of his office building. Similarly, when Popper is being chased by the Agents, Popper climbed out onto the edge of his school building. However, rather than allow himself to be caught, Popper took a leap of faith and "self-substantiated." Neo never had the faith that Popper has. Faith (aka hope) is humankind's greatest strength (and greatest weakness).

So, who's child would it be, exactly?

I know he's important, but I don't know about him being a child of programs. It's possible though.

At this point I'm not sure. Does anyone have an idea who the two programs are that sold the termination code of the Oracle's shell to the Merovingian? We know that they are two programs that were close to her.

Suspects:
Seraph
Architect
Smith
Persephone
Anyone else?

Suggestions would be appreciated.

Originally posted by TheRealOne
At this point I'm not sure. Does anyone have an idea who the two programs are that sold the termination code of the Oracle's shell to the Merovingian? We know that they are two programs that were close to her.

Suspects:
Seraph
Architect
Smith
Persephone
Anyone else?

Suggestions would be appreciated.

Where'd you get that stuff about selling the termination code? Is that in one of the m3 trailers?

great theory TheRealOne

I don't know where www.imdb.com get they're information but the Kid is not in the cast, anyway they said it could change later.

but even the architect believes that neo is the one. if he isn't, then basically everyone in the movie were fooled, even neo. i like the idea and it does make a lot of sense, but i dont see the w. bros taking the movie in that direction.

I'm not sure the Architect believes that Neo is the One. He definitely knows that Neo is an anomoly that bends and breaks the rules of the Matrix. However, I think the Architect views Neo more as a reset button for Zion.

Whoops...I took a closer look at my own signature and realised this:even the Oracle says Neo is the one.
That's a very good point u raised TheRealOne but I'd like to think more highly of Neo. He represents us:the philosophers (yes we can deserve in our little ways that title) in that he questions everything and everyone he meets, even Morpheus. This is an answer to a post somewhere out there where No_Mind was saying absurd things like us being too egoistic to accept his "enlightenment"...we will never get far if we dun question. Popper is too much like Morpheus-what if he was in the real world? He'd be street pasta, and all his beliefs'd get him nowhere. Neo had very little faith-that was actually what made him do most of the miracles we see him do in M1 n 2...not because he knew he could do it:he had to. He didn't think of it. But in M2 it was continueing to question that helped him realise that everything was a form of control;even being the One. He was essentially the underdog, and showed his strength in being such...an inspiration to us I feel!

well said

Sorry I think most people's reaction to popper in M2 was "Who in the hell is that campy kid I've never seen before running circles around neo" and then the kid goes away and you stop caring.

I think popper was just a bone thrown to the die hard fans who bought animatrix and watched it,nothing more. I seriously doubt they would base the conclusion of the trilogy around this dork.

suppose so

Originally posted by Truth
It is a great theory. However, I just have one little thing.....if Popper is so important, wouldn't we have seen a little more of him in Reloaded?

Remember that we didnt see Persephone in reloaded as well. But the Warshowski bros. said in interviews that she will have a greater part in Revolutions. We wouldn't know that Persephone would be a great part in the next movie because it only showed a little bit of her in the movie.

So same idea with popper.

except nothing has been said about him, has it? i don't think it's probable that the W bros would take the movie in that direction, mostly because most people wouldn't understand it.

Good thinking here.. :)

i agree

I've been trying to sit back and observe because I've already said my peace and I've been interested in other's comments, which make some valid arguments. However, if you think the Brothers would not go this route because others would not understand it, I don't believe this is sound reasoning. I'm sure if they did choose to take this route, they would fully explain it through dialogue. Additionally, considering what we have observed in M1 and M2, don't you think that "self-substantiation" is a pretty amazing concept that should be explored? Also, keep in mind the high level of interest that Popper took in joining the Neb when he comes of age (of course a war of this magnitude may accelerate his participation).

That's the point though- we're the only ones who know about the 'self-substantion'. I just don't see the W.Bros taking time out of M3 to explain to everyone else about Popper.

Persephone is obviously important- that's why we saw a little about her too. We know about her situation (at least a bit) enough to discuss whether or not she could be the Mother, for example. But Popper was just in M2 for a second, when the Neb landed, and to give Neo the spoon. It didn't show us anything about him at all. If ETM and Animatrix hadn't mentioned something, we wouldn't even be talking about him. (but as I said before, I'm dead against Popper being important, that's why I don't want to believe it! lol)

But Popper just wants to join the Neb because his hero, Neo is part of the Neb's crew!

Your logic is that it can't be true because only "we" know about self substantiation. There are 7,878 members in this forum alone. Many, many more, including those who have not joined any similar forum, have watched the animatrix and told friends about the animatrix. Those friends may tell other friends. It would not be as obscure as you imagine. Also, it would provide a "pay-off" to those who have done additional research.

Hold on a sec......if what ur saying is true and zion is a program...........then how come u can be unplugged???? (mabye just a part of the program) and i have been wondering about something for a very long time.........zion has to be a program.....because at the end of m2 Neo stops as the sentinels are coming and says wait!!!! something's different...i can feel them this time........and then he stops the sentinels the same way he stops bullets in the matrix......leading to that for him to be able to do that OUTSIDE of the matrix he must be the one in and out of the matrix,or ..........zion is a layer in the matrix........and if it was a layer then wouldnt it be possable that there could be more and more and more layers of the matrix therefor it would be impossable to escape and be free.

Neo_45422, read the first posting on this thread. I don't know if you watched the Animatrix, but, in "Kid's Story," a human awoke from the "Real World" and into Zion after taking a literal leap of faith. His awakening was referred to as self-substantiation. If there is a matrix within a matrix, self-substantiation may be necessary to awake beyond Zion.

By the way, the human that self-substantiated is in Reloaded (the kid that offers to carry Neo's bags when he returns to Zion and that gives Neo the spoon).

So....waking through sheer will is "self-substantiation"? Always wondered wat it meant...isn't it interesting that unlike Morpheus while Neo observed Popper enough to know that he was being stalked by agents he didn't have an escape route for him?...

I wouldn't call it sheer will. I would call it faith. Faith is very important because it is premised upon hope (humankind's greatest strength and greatest weakness according to the Architect).

You mean hope, not faith. :)

The Architect says hope is mankinds greatest weakness and strength not faith.

yeah

TheRealOne- as you see, you are here on a forum for Matrix fans, and you still have to explain yourself! And yes, almost 8000 members is a lot, but as we all know;
1)most of those don't post (and we assume don't come here much at all after their registration)
2)even assuming *all* of those members, told *all* their friends, (which is unlikely), it's still not that many people
3) while I'm not suggesting that all 6 mbillion of the worlds population will go see Revolutions, I'm sure you can see that the majority of people who will go to see it are not members of this forum, or one of their friends.

I'm not saying the Popper theory is impossible- I'm just saying I think it is highly unlikely.

I like the idea of the 'pay-off' for us, but what a waste for the viewing public! (think about it, a *lot* of poeple find the movies confusing, this would just add to that)

I think this theory is rather simplistic. Zion is another layer of the Matrix - not hard to understand. One boy can awaken from the Matrix without the help of others. What is so confusing?

Nothing! But for the general viewing public.......well. Considering for the last 2 movies Neo has been the prophesied 'One' and the protagonist, to suddenly change that might be too mcuh. Besides, if he's not the one, how do you explain his powers and ressurection?
I'm not trying to argue with you, and yours is certainly a good theory, but I just don't believe it.

Aye, we 'been going 'round in circles much like the other significant theories around but until they've been proved the only way they can (ie by revolutions itself) they'll only be mind fodder at most....

true but it still good to give our opinion

The whole diolouge in the the "enter the matrix" with Ghost and the orical where they talk about what happend to her and she says that they sold her termanation code to the merilvingian... this is sadly to say just an explanation for the fact that the actress that played the orical died and there was a new actress in her place. however they do talk about a child... this i bleave to the a child "program".... created by persephony and merilvingian... this child i expected to be Neo... however popper is a good theory as well... what do we think?

another good theory

I think i have heard this theory before on another board though...but who cares. I've watched every frame of the Matrix Revolutions trailers because I have nothing better to do... but thats not the point. But theres this one part in the trailer were this stickly little white guy (i.e. popper perhaps) is holding this huge bazooka bomb looking thing and it looks like there is an african american woman beside him to the right (i.e. zee) so i'm guessing they met in Zion but thats not the point either...I'm not sure what to believe because is Popper had such an important role why would be be in the ditch with zee to bomb ... um something. i dont know what they are shooting at.

Whether or not Neo is "the One," is a matter of perspective. Considering Neo's conversation with the Architect, Neo appears to be "the One" for the AI, by way of enabling the Matrix to be rebooted, but perhaps not "the One" for the humans.

Undoubtedly in my mind, Neo is an anomoly of anomolies. I believe in the MIAM theory and that no one has ever, besides Neo, bent the "rules" in Zion. Also, I believe that Neo performed feats in "Reality" that were never performed before (such as saving Trinity's life - the Architect never expected her to survive). For this reason, Neo is EXTREMELY important. Further, I believe the path of "the One" for the humans is made of the many.

However, I do not believe that Neo is "the One" per se. Meaning, I do not believe that Neo is going to take the final step that changes everything forever. But, I do believe that Neo will pave the path for Popper.

This makes sense because in some ways, Popper has proven himself more than Neo. Popper has shown the ultimate faith. When the Agents were chasing Popper for the first time, and only time, Popper took a leap of faith. His faith was that he would awake from the purported "Reality." Do not forget that faith is premised on hope. Hope is humankind's greatest strength and greatest weakness. When Neo was upon the edge of his office building in M1, he was so extremely scared that he climbed off of the edge and back into the building, only to be caught by the Agents. He did this, even though he had concrete indications that "Reality" was not real (remember, Neo dropped his cell phone and it started to fall in slow motion before it fell at normal speed).

Popper's faith led to self-substantiate. If the Popper Theory is correct, where does that leave us? How could one boy save the human race, or assist others in awakening? Well, if humans have been in the Matrix for 600 years, the machines would no longer need a military to destroy the humans. Therefore, the machines may very well be defenseless. If so, it may only take one child, awakening beyond Zion, to change the world forever.

thats true. But when neo dropped his phone in slow motion I think that was just for the audience

This whole Popper thing just doesn't sit well with me at all. It gives me the same feeling Matrix in Matrix theory gave me, at the beginning, before it got annoying.

I don't really have any reasons to state, but i'll try and conjour something up off the top of mine head. =D

The Animatrix shorts don't necessarily have anything to do with The Matrix by The Wachowski Brothers. I mean, they're essentially stories set in the same setting, the same theme. But unlike Enter The Matrix, they don't necessarily provide any information to the story The Brothers have created, not as far as the films go. Has anyone in any of these movies said anything about Popper self-substantiating, or was it only said in The Animatrix? If nothing has eluded to him being any more special than anyone else (in the movies), then i don't see any reason to think he plays a role any greater than minimal, as in Reloaded.

I guess, like with The Matrix in Matrix theory, i feel these plot twists would really turn the movie around, to a place it's going to be hard for the audience to follow. Keep in mind that most people who watch these movies are not obsessing about it on internet message boards like we are. They pay to see explosions, cool one liners, and good fight scenes. If the movie brought out this new guy in the final film, it wouldn't give us time to identify with him.

I believe popper may be the special child, but I do not believe this in any way supports MiM. Sorry. There's just no connection.

Terikan, you think that Popper is the special child but that Popper does not support MiM. If Popper is the special child, undoubtedly it supports MiM. Otherwise, what would be so special about Popper? Sure, Popper was able to awaken in Zion, but how does that help everyone else if there is not a MiM?

exactly

Originally posted by Cyfre
Keep in mind that most people who watch these movies are not obsessing about it on internet message boards like we are. They pay to see explosions, cool one liners, and good fight scenes. If the movie brought out this new guy in the final film, it wouldn't give us time to identify with him.

Thankyou! It's nice to see that someone else can see what I meant. This is the exact same point I made further back in this thread. While the Popper idea is a nice theory for us to debate, it just wouldn't make sense to introduce a major character in the last film of the trilogy. The audience of these movies had seen Neo be 'the One' for 2 movies now, (and most people who aren't obsessing on forums are at best vaguely confused about the story anyway) it wouldn't be in the films interest to turn all that on it's head. Popper may turn out to be important, but he's not the protagonist. Not only would it be confusing for the general viwing public, but they would have to spend a chunk of Revolutions explaining the whole situation- including Poppers self-substantiation on it's significance.

And why does believing this theory support MIM? I don't see any connection either.

Oh, and I think the Animatrix has quite a bit to do with the trilogy. After all, we wouldn't know anything about Popper if it wasn't for Kid's story. So it is relevant, it's just not going to give us the answers to our questions, like we hope Revolutions will.

if you say that zion is another layer of matrix and that popper is so important. then y doesnt he self substantiate from zion?
thats the only way to prove MiM. not that i believe im Mim.

its a good argument though, but i dont see the film going in that direction at all

I have heard so many people say "I don't believe the film is going in that direction at all" and "we've been relating with Neo for 2 whole movies now - he must be the One." Then what direction is the movie going? And, just because you've been "relating to Neo," why does that mean that he will ultimately save humankind? Many of you wish to criticize theories, and I think criticism is good. But, so many of you critics do not offer anything more than "gut feelings" as your reasons for criticism.

Well, my "gut feeling" is that most of you critics are so afraid (in a forum where no one even knows who you are) to go out onto a limb and to place your faith in one theory or another. It is so easy to say - "well, we'll never really know until November." What is the point of making comments like that? What does that accomplish? We all know that Revolutions is coming out in November (i.e., it is not news to us - so why must you repeat it?). Show some courage. Place your faith in a theory, or develop your own. Don't be one of those people that agrees with everything (or disagrees with everything) just so you can later say that you "knew it was so" (or you "knew it wasn't so"), because you didn't "know" and you were too afraid to take a risk.

Without risks, there are no rewards. If the Matrix has taught us anything, it is that hope (i.e., faith) is our greatest strength. Place your faith in what you believe most and stop being indecisive at to what you truly believe.

It irratates me when ppl dont use constructive criticism and simply criticizes.

I strongly disagree with you naz...the m2 and m3 isnt "not leading to anything"...don't believe in something there is no evidence to support...its just that most answers should lie w/ in m3... and if popper tried to self-substantiate from zion then where would it take him to the sewers! or crops! those a beyond zion's zone of real... but what would he do there...

Popper self-substantiated into Zion because he had faith that Zion existed. If MiM is true, as I presume, Popper will be able to self-substantiate beyond Zion. It will only require that Popper has faith in a world beyond Zion.

if he IS possible to do that...is he a possible "one" for the matrix 7.0?

It is possible that Popper "awoke" before his time, and that he was intended to be the next anomoly. However, I do not think there will be a Matrix 7.0 because I think Popper will change the Matrix forever.

is what he did something that they will understand more and more ppl will be able to do?

Two possibilities:

(1) Popper is merely an example. Meaning, others can self-substantiate through faith. If so, all members of the humanrace could awaken from "Reality." If everyone awoke from the matrix, a large part of the machines power supply would be destroyed (considering the machines have been dependent upon this energy for 600 years) and Zion would have a much larger army.

OR

(2) Only Popper has the ability to "self-substantiate." If so, he would be able to awaken beyond Zion if there is a MiM. Once again, considering the machines have held humans prisoners in the Matrix for 600 years, it would be very unlikely that the machines would still have an army. In other words, it is likely that the machines are defenseless and thus a child would have the ability to defeat the machines.

both are great theories

Originally posted by TheRealOne
I have heard so many people say "I don't believe the film is going in that direction at all" and "we've been relating with Neo for 2 whole movies now - he must be the One." Then what direction is the movie going? And, just because you've been "relating to Neo," why does that mean that he will ultimately save humankind? Many of you wish to criticize theories, and I think criticism is good. But, so many of you critics do not offer anything more than "gut feelings" as your reasons for criticism.

Well, my "gut feeling" is that most of you critics are so afraid (in a forum where no one even knows who you are) to go out onto a limb and to place your faith in one theory or another. It is so easy to say - "well, we'll never really know until November." What is the point of making comments like that? What does that accomplish? We all know that Revolutions is coming out in November (i.e., it is not news to us - so why must you repeat it?). Show some courage. Place your faith in a theory, or develop your own. Don't be one of those people that agrees with everything (or disagrees with everything) just so you can later say that you "knew it was so" (or you "knew it wasn't so"), because you didn't "know" and you were too afraid to take a risk.

Without risks, there are no rewards. If the Matrix has taught us anything, it is that hope (i.e., faith) is our greatest strength. Place your faith in what you believe most and stop being indecisive at to what you truly believe.

The movie is going in a smart direction. How many movies have changed hero's at the last minute, and survived the critics, made a good deal of money? There are some, but not many at all. You can't take the hero and change it so late in the story, it will leave the audience without someone to identify with. Most people want to identify with the hero when they watch a movie, or read a book. You can't just change it. Then we're left with a connection to a character who turns out to not be as important, and it takes away from the climax of the film, which is the last part. You don't want your audience leaving feeling disappointed, or like they needed more clarification. There isn't enough time to clarify what Popper means to the story, there isn't enough time to begin to identify with a new hero, not one as important as Popper, who you say is going to save the matrix, or be The One or something.

I strongly urge you to check other threads. I've put my theories all over this board and i've never been afraid to admit it. My theories change as i read more, and as i think more about it. I haven't stuck to a set theory yet, because i'm not done thinking about it. I hope i won't have a set theory when Revolutions comes out. It will mean more to me to watch the film if i'm wrong. I very much hope all my theories are wrong. But these are the one's i support:

There is no MiM. Zion is the real world. The Matrix is virtual reality.

I keep going back and forth on The Mother thing. I'm pretty sure it's The Oracle, but i keep wanting to think Persephone has more significance.

Obviously, The Matrix does not end. The Matrix Online, coming out next year, takes place inside The Matrix after the trilogy.

I believe Neo stopped the sentinnals with his real mind. It was his act that traumatized him and when he touched the source (returned to Zion), it seperated his body and his mind.

Cyfre, I understand what you are saying: The Brothers are going to follow the protocol for making a successful sequel - keep the people attached to the protagonist. Of course, this seems ironic, considering that one of the Brothers' underlying message is to defy control and to act freely, rather than using a mathematical equation for success.

Hey RealOne its as they say-cest' la vie...such is life. Philosophy rarely means anything in the real world...I remember a joke I read once about a man appearing on TV to declare his hatred for TV...cracked me up real good!

Originally posted by TheRealOne
Cyfre, I understand what you are saying: The Brothers are going to follow the protocol for making a successful sequel - keep the people attached to the protagonist. Of course, this seems ironic, considering that one of the Brothers' underlying message is to defy control and to act freely, rather than using a mathematical equation for success.

Do you notice how The Matrix cost so much less to make? Why do you think that is? Obviously, they had a great idea and anyone to turn down the rights is a fool. Do you think The Wachowski Brothers asked for 63 million to make one of the best sci fi movies of all time? I'm guessing they wanted more. But the people who put up the money just weren't ready to invest so much in an idea that is, at the core of every human being (i'm making a broad generalization here), revolting. It makes us feel uncomfortable to seriously consider the possibility. Regardless of what kind of viewers we here at the boards are, the majority of audiences around the world are not comfortable with the thought of that. Naturally, they won't invest greater amounts of money until The Wachowski Brothers come through. As they did so with The Matrix.

Reloaded. A second film, has to be big. They invest over 170 million dollars to this film, a staggering 107 million increase from the first. The special effects are amazing in order to keep the general audience around. Meanwhile, there's a story brewing that few people can follow.

Revolutions. Interviews from various people connected with the film say the special effects are greater. Producer Joel Silver said most of the climax is almost totally cgi, which is a very expensive process. I think it's safe to say this is going to be a VERY expensive film.

The more they spend on each film, the more pressure there is not to disappoint. The ending you support, TheRealOne, would turn the audience on their heads in confusion. Their hearts would want to identify with the hero, when the screen is commanding them now to watch Popper. It causes a conflict within the soul of every viewer, and more times than not, Neo will be the one they pay attention to. This takes away attention from what's being done at the end, which is the entire tie up of the story.

Do you really think they're going to risk a very huge sum of money to make a statement to defy control, and act freely?

I really do like your theory. I think it's a great story idea, and personally, i wouldn't mind seeing it developed like you're saying in another Animatrix or something along those lines. But i just don't see it happening in this trilogy. It's my guess that Popper ends up helping Neo in some way, at the last second or something. You have all these grandiose ideas of what Popper is going to end up being, but let me sum it up for you.

Reloaded: Popper is Neo's puppy dog. He loves him, and he's slightly annoying. But you have to like him.

Revolutions: Popper ends up doing something at the last second in order to save the cause, more closely tied with Neo (maybe blowing something up just as it's about to kill him or something). He's still a hero, and his place makes me feel a whole lot more comfortable.

PS- you always catch me when i'm just starting to smoke my special cigarettes. You usually get the brunt of my stoner fury. Sorry about that. I really do like ya. =)

well said

Just to add to my last (long) post:

The Wachowski Brothers have directed now a total of four films. Bound, The Matrix, Reloaded, and Revolutions. Four. Yes, they're great and blah blah blah, but honestly, they're not proven. They've got a hit with The Matrix trilogy, yes. But look at Tarantino. What's he doing now? Who cares about him now? Kubrick got to the point that it didn't matter what he directed, it was good because he directed it. There aren't a lot of directors who can be consistent in their success.
I don't believe The Wachowski Brothers have THAT much freedom with which direction they really want to take this. What i mean, is this. I don't believe The Wachowski Brothers ever intended for Popper to be the real hero of the movie, this climax to the trilogy you're proposing. I don't believe this for reasons within and outside of the stories. There's evidence i support that contradicts your theory, and i don't think the brothers (even if this idea ever occured to them in the first place) would take such a huge risk when their careers are still so young.

But, i could be wrong. =D I kind of hope i am wrong now, after putting so much thought into this theory.

Originally posted by TheRealOne
Popper is very similar to Neo, but unlike Neo, Popper also possesses faith. Remember when Mr. Anderson (Neo) was first being chased by the Agents in M1, Neo climbed out onto the edge of his office building. Similarly, when Popper is being chased by the Agents, Popper climbed out onto the edge of his school building. However, rather than allow himself to be caught, Popper took a leap of faith and "self-substantiated." Neo never had the faith that Popper has. Faith (aka hope) is humankind's greatest strength (and greatest weakness).

Popper had faith/hope and self-substantiated out of TheMatrix, but it had a reason. Neo felts something was wrong, but has never understanded 'Why'. Kid did, because he was in The Know.

If you'd never saw TheMatrix, you never even considered that you could be living in a dreamworld. The same with Neo, he never saw glimpses of TheMatrix or the Real World, he never met an Anomaly, Agents or other programs. He never knew what possibly could be wrong with the world. Until he meets Morpheus and got pulled outside TheMatrix by force.
After that the actions of The Anomalys were obvious, people noticed impossible moves. Remember, when Neo was followed by 3 Agents in the first movie after he escaped Smith in the subway, the little girl who's dad got assimilated by Agent Smith. Imagine what she would be thinken at that moment? But not only the little girl but other people also noticed these tricks, the actions of The Anomalys went public. How can you explain that Kid or Popper knew the name of Neo and Trinity and what about the famous line: Neo, I believe...!

Popper heard (maybe via Internet fora, like this one) about the actions of Anomalys and/or TheMatrix-theory and by that he gets a general idea in what kind of world he's living. He may have reached a mental level in which he fully understands what is wrong with the world, I believe that self-substantiation is more easy if you know what the truth is. Neo never heard about the truth and therefore he couldn't self-substantiate out of TheMatrix.

But Neo later on did self-substantiate outside The Real World, because he did the same what Popper did. Popper accepted the fact that this world is fake and knew the truth, therefore he couldn't accept the program no longer and got kicked out of TheMatrix. The same happened to Neo, after his visit with The Architect he put the pieces together and realized that Zion+RealWorld is a fake too, he understands that TheMatrix and Zion+RealWorld are like two partitions on the same harddisk. He knew the truth and accepted that the world he believed was real, turned out to be a fake. When he stopped the Sentinels, he reaches the mental level of self-substantiation.

Popper got kicked out of one program into another program, Neo was already pulled out of TheMatrix, but now he got kicked out of the RealWorld-program as well, he has nowhere to go and as TheOracle nicely put it:
He some how separated his mind from his body (...) he now drifts between your world and our world.

Neo drifts between yourworld (human world, the Matrix) and our world (machineworld, the Real World) he got kicked outside both programs and is still attached to the Mainframe, but doesn't have an appearence any longer not in TheRealWorld (only his body) or in TheMatrix. He finds a way to switch between both world, but we'll see that in Revolutions. Ergo do not comment that Neo never self-substantiated, because he did.

Self-substantiation is the transfer from one program into the next, Popper went from TheMatrix into the Real World. Neo from TheRealWorld into i-don't-know-where. But they both still are connected to the overal Mainframe, the program which controls both worlds. It is not possible to self-substantiate into TheRealRealWorld, because if it could be done, why isn't Neo in TheRealRealWorld?

Spectator, I would like to answer your questions and comments to the best of my ability. First, you wrote: "[h]ow can you explain that Kid or Popper knew the name of Neo and Trinity and what about the famous line: Neo, I believe...!" Well, if you finished the quote, you would see that it says in toto "Neo, I believe, I know it wasn't a dream." Considering that Popper ponders why it is more real when he dreams than when he is awake, it seems most likely that Popper dreamt of Neo, Trinity, and Zion - rather than learning of these things through word of mouth.

Second, you commented that "do not comment that Neo never self-substantiated, because he did." Your basis was that at the end of Reloaded, Neo was now somewhere between "TheRealWorld" and "TheMatrix." I guess if you consider "self-substantiation" as warping from one part of the Matrix to another, then this would be true. However, if you consider it awaking from a lower layer of the Matrix to a higher layer of the Matrix, I believe your comment is incorrect.

Finally, I do believe that one may "self-substantiate" into TheRealRealWorld," as you put it. It may merely require awakening from one layer to another, one layer at a time.

This weekend I had the opportunity to review the Animatrix and to do some additional research, and believe I have gained some new insight. First off, the name on Popper's gravestone reads "Michael Karl Popper." Interestingly, "Karl Popper is generally regarded as one of the greatest philosophers of science of the 20th century." See, http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/popper/.

Among Dr. Popper's philosphies, he believes that "one of the fallacies committed by the historicist is to take the (relatively rare) instances of unconditional prophecies in the natural science as constituting the essence of what scientific prediction is, to fail to see that such prophecies apply only to systems which are isolated, stationary, and repetitive, and to seek to apply the method of scientific prophecy to human society and human history. The latter, of course, is not an isolated system (in fact it's not a system at all), it is constantly changing, and it continually undergoes rapid, non-repetitive development. In the most fundamental sense possible, every event in human history is discrete, novel, quite unique, and ontologically distinct from every other historical event. For this reason, it is impossible in principle that unconditional scientific prophecies could be made in relation to human history - the idea that the successful unconditional prediction of eclipses provides us with reasonable grounds for the hope of successful unconditional prediction regarding the evolution of human history turns out to be based upon a gross misconception, and is quite false. As Popper himself concludes, 'The fact that we predict eclipses does not, therefore, provide a valid reason for expecting that we can predict revolutions.' (Conjectures and Refutations, 340)." Id.

In a nutshell, I believe Dr. Popper is saying that we cannot predict what will happen to our society in the future because something is always different. The littlest of things can make all the difference. This implies that the Architect is overly confident (and wrong) when he proclaims what will happen when Neo chooses one of the two doors. Also, as I'm sure you all have noticed, Popper speaks directly towards the historical events of "revolutions." Just as you cannot predict that revolutions will happen, you cannot predict that revolutions will happen. Since the Architect is certain that there will not be a revolution (i.e., defeat of the matrix), I believe there will be one, just to spite him and his smug attitude.

Second, more than ever, I believe that Popper is the character in the series that will tip the balances in favor of the humans (please see the next two paragraphs). However, this comes with some new perspective. I think it is fair to say that the Brothers add subtle details to provide us with additional insight. After watching "Kid's Story" again, one subtle detail sticks out like a sore thumb - when Popper is sitting in the classroom, another child is sitting beside him wearing a shirt that displays the number "7." If you believe that Neo is the sixth one, this seems to imply that Popper is the seventh one. If the Architect always anticipated that one Anomoly of Anomolies would return to the source to reset Zion, and always anticipated that this person would need to be dealt with, wouldn't it throw those in control for a loop if there was another Anomoly of Anomolies that was awakened from "Reality" before his/her time and that was able to team up with the previous one? (I smell a revolution brewing).

Also, while I have always believed that the Oracle was talking about Popper when she was stressing the importance of the child of two programs and that this child would change "your" world and "our" world forever, I was always concerned about the idea that Popper was the child of two programs. But, after watching the Animatrix again, I am certain that Popper is the child of two programs. In "The Second Renaissance, Part II," you see a happy, brown-haired, brown-eyed boy that is walking in the ruins of a human city, as it is snowing (I would assume that this child survived the destruction and is now orphaned or else has wondered away from Zion and to the rubble). Next, you see this same boy, but this time he is in front of a house, and there is an image of a male and a female in the front door (and you assume it is the boy's parents). The female says, "it's getting late sweetie, come inside." As the boy approaches the images, there are flashes that the parents are agents (men wearing sun glasses and suits - i.e., programs), and the boy screams. Then, you see the child develop into an adolescent and that the adolescent is plugged into the matrix. So why do I believe this child is Popper? Four reasons. First, the child is brown-haired and brown-eyed - so is Popper. Second, the child develops into a plugged-in adolescent - Popper is unplugged while an adoloscent. Third, this story immediately precedes "Kid's Story." Fourth, the child is the child of two programs, and for the reasons previously stated, I believe the Oracle was speaking of Popper when she was talking about the child of two programs. Now, I know that none of this is direct evidence that Popper is the same child as the child in "Part II," but I think it is rather convincing.

In M1, when Neo awoke in the red bubble, a hovering machine grabbed Neo by the neck, unplugged him, and released him to fall down the drain. In the Animatrix, when the track-star awoke in the red bubble, a hovering machine grabbed him by the arms, and shocked him (presumably until he passed out so the AI could overwrite his memory of awakening). As you remember, the track-star awoke on his own volition, when he was running. In other words, the track-star self-substantiated. Similarly, Popper awoke through self-substantiation, but the hovering machine did not successfully grab him and shock him (after all Popper is now in Zion). Perhaps this is why Popper continuously thanks Neo for saving his life (Neo and the crew got to Popper before the machine was able to do the same thing to Popper that it did to the track-star). But, why would the machine shock someone who self-substantiated, but not someone who awoke through the help of others? I think the contradicting responses of the machines shows the great importance of self-substantiation.

Originally posted by TheRealOne
In M1, when Neo awoke in the red bubble, a hovering machine grabbed Neo by the neck, unplugged him, and released him to fall down the drain. In the Animatrix, when the track-star awoke in the red bubble, a hovering machine grabbed him by the arms, and shocked him (presumably until he passed out so the AI could overwrite his memory of awakening). As you remember, the track-star awoke on his own volition, when he was running. In other words, the track-star self-substantiated. Similarly, Popper awoke through self-substantiation, but the hovering machine did not successfully grab him and shock him (after all Popper is now in Zion). Perhaps this is why Popper continuously thanks Neo for saving his life (Neo and the crew got to Popper before the machine was able to do the same thing to Popper that it did to the track-star). But, why would the machine shock someone who self-substantiated, but not someone who awoke through the help of others? I think the contradicting responses of the machines shows the great importance of self-substantiation.

The track star awoke from The Matrix because of physical reasons, not faith. The Kid awoke because of faith. If you remember, he answered a cell phone when he was in class. Neo was on the other line, right? They were already aware of him, and probably had him targeted already. They didn't have the track star targeted, because he wasn't looking for them. He didn't sense anything amiss about the world in which he lived. The Kid, on the other hand, knew of the existence of something else. I don't think this is applicable.

i agree

About Popper's knowledge of Neo and the others...........

Couldn't he have seen the movie? Maybe this is a subtle hint about how real the movies are.

Oh, and just a thought, but, maybe Popper self-substantiated because he believed that there was another reality to go to. For the people already in Zion, they think that have gotten out of the matrix, and are therefore not looking to escape. I'm not advocating the MIM theory, even though this answer would support that argument :D But the reason Neo doesn't self-substantiate to the RealRealWorld is because he has no reason to think there is one.

well said by the way t have you read the pm i sent?

Interestingly enough, Karl Popper, the renown scientific philosopher that I believe "Michael Karl Popper" is named after, believed in 3 distinct worlds:

The first world is the external physical universe - the world of physics, rocks, trees, and physical fields of force. For example, imagine if you are looking at a picture, the actual picture fits into this category (i.e., things). (Perhaps this is Zion).

The second world is the inner world of the mind. It is one's mental image of the external physical universe. This world consists of one's subjective experiences. For example, one's mental image of a picture fits into this category. (Perhaps this is the Matrix).

The third world is the world of products of the human mind - such as scientific libraries, books, scientific problems, theories, works of art, ethical values, and social institutions. This world is both man-made and autonomous. To continue with the aforementioned example, one's thoughts and feelings of a picture would fit into this category. (Perhaps this is where Neo is at the end of reloaded).

Popper believed that the second world served as a mediator to worlds one and three by linking the two. Now, I am still forming ideas on how this relates to the Matrix, but I just thought I would throw it out there.

huuummm

The original poster of this is totally correct. Read my theory here:

http://matrixreloaded.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5297

Xehirut, I read your theory. My question is what causes you to believe that Neo and Trinity will have a child, other than the fact that there was a sex scene in Reloaded? When the Oracle is talking of the importance of the child of two programs, I believe she is speaking of Popper, not the child of Trinity and Neo. My reasoning is explained in one of my recent posts in this thread.

Well apparently he has the inside story! :D

This is turning out to be really huge...these are the finest arguments I've heard for sometime! A few questions:

Are you sure the track star actually existed in this incarnation of the matrix? with things being so different and with Neo's ilk nowhere to be found, maybe he's just part of an older matrix...?

...If the boy really is Popper...does this mean the matrix is much younger than we thought? Will Neo and the rest have been pretty old already by the time of the war??

Could someone summarize the whole point of this theory, cause I don't get it.

And the WBs directed Assassins as well (someone earlier said they only directed 4 movies).

Give me a couple of days and I will provide an all inclusive summary of this theory and the reasons in support.

in the matrix 3 people substantiated: Neo, Popper and the trackstar.

Neo's I/O-signal was scrambled, his location was found and substantiated out of the matrix by force (he did NOT self-substantiate) the droid who found him unplugged him from The Matrix, maybe because of the pill or something else. (The Matrix)

The trackstar crossed the borders of The Matrix in a fysical way, The Matrix created a rule that limited the maximum exercise of the human muscle, the agents behind him couldn't follow him. The trackstar runned harder then is possible in The Matrix, his signal was scrambled and he woke up from The Matrix, he self-substantiated. The droid didn't unplug him like it happened to Neo, but replugged him, changed his residual signature and re-enters The Matrix paralyzed. (The Animatrix, world record)

Popper heard about Neo, Trinity... and was aware of the other world, he found his faith and self-substantiated out of The Matrix. we don't see his meeting with the droid, but what we do know is that he woke up on board the Nebuchadnezzar, the ship of Neo, Morpheus and Trinity. (The Animatrix, kid's story)

The difference between these 3 is, that Neo didn't self-substantiated, but was unplugged; the trackstar self-substantiated, but was replugged; Popper self-substantiated and was unplugged from the Matrix. especially the difference between Popper and the trackstar is interesting: why o why was Popper unplugged and the trackstar replugged, while they both self-substantiated. I believe it has something to do with purpose - thank you smith!!!:
the self-substantiation of the trackstar was an accident, he has no purpose and isn't meant to play a role in Neo's life or his path.
Poppers self-substantiation was also an accident, but he wasn't replugged, because he has a purpose and is meant to play a (big) role in Neo's life and/or will start a revolution.

And Terikan, the essence of the popper theory is this:
kid, the young boy who was saved by Neo, self-substantiated out of the matrix by faith (as seen in The Animatrix) he freed himself without pills or machines. Popper's self-substantion is important to the storyline, some believe that he is the next One or another One, some believe he will free the human race instead of Neo, in either case he is important; his self-substantiation was believed to be impossible and surely the machines never expected that this would be possible, therefore he will play an important and unexpected role in the story, he will start a revolution that the machines never had expected.
For more details see the rest of this topic or wait for TheRealOne's summary (i warn you, he's a genius)

A genius? TheSpectator, thank you very much for the compliment, but we should reserve comment until November (otherwise, if I'm wrong, I'm just full of . . . well, you know). Terikan, I have summarized the main points of this thread in a new thread entitled "The Popper Theory (Revised)," which is found here in the Oracle's Apartment. The theory is a lengthy read, but you will find that it makes some interesting connections.

as you can see the popper theory was complete bull. It was only ever in the animatrix and thats where it will stay

yeah, you're right. It was kinda disappointing though, because we all had put our hopes on the little Kid. After Revolutions we know now that his only purpose is to shoot down a contra-weight - there goes our hero!!!

Kid isn't that special after all, maybe it's for the better, because it didn't harm the story at all.
I now keep wondering what will happen with him in the 7th Matrix or in the peacefull Zion. What will happen in the future... it's a shame the trilogy ended, because I'm really curious about what happened afterwards. But I heard the Matrix Online goes on where Revolutions ended, so maybe we found out there....

Originally posted by Torpelet
as you can see the popper theory was complete bull. It was only ever in the animatrix and thats where it will stay

Complete bull? It had a lot of evidentiary support. Nevertheless, do not be surprised if Popper plays a large role in The Matrix Online.

So long as the saga continues, and Popper's character is not killed/deleted, there is always the chance.