Hive Minds

Greetings from the Matrix ...

Just wanted to throw some ideas out there about the hive mind concept. Just got done with the "Ender's Game" series of books by Orson Scott Card and was thinking of the Matrix - came up with some ideas/questions.

Can a hive mind have a leader or (better yet) is a leader an inescapable necessity. I ask this because the idea of having a leader somewhat goes against an idea of a hive mind where everything is shared. In contrast, having a hive mind without any "rules of operation" might be dangerous to those involved and the strongest willed or minded individual could subsume the whole. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but I am also considering a scenario where individual enties enter the hive mind with the idea of becoming part of a whole and not being subsumed by it. I guess it's the conflicting nature of the appeal - that we can have all of this knowledge (which implies a desire for power), while being fearful of being overtaken oneself. Any ideas?

There have been posts about the AI of the matrix and AI's within it and there is also the issue of the agents. What concious structures do you believe are in place in the matrix? I am thinking of a leader conciousness controlling and containing other pseudo-independent AI entities (much like the Hive Queen in Ender's Game). But there is also the question of the agents. They are made different, powerful, and Agent Smith himself is disgusted with his existence in the Matrix. Could the controlling AI of the matrix have lost this one? Since he is strong enough to hate his existance is he strong enough to exist without the "master" AI? Could he control it and rule the matrix? Any ideas are welcome.

I've read the books with the Hive queen as well, and I think that you can have a ruling entity, but that it would be difficult. Think of the Borg in Star Trek, if you're enough of a nerd (nerd is a good thing). The ruler there is reffered to several times as the "one that is many"

I'm half nerd (at least) so I'll attempt Borg integration into the concept.

Is it your understanding then that the borg as a whole have created another entity (the one that is many) that leads, but has no body and is part of the minds of the rest of the borg? I have to think and go back to the roots. If the borg is a collective hive and they connect to each other through communicators and the borg ship, I have to thing that there is a borg leader. That the borg leader is an computer program (not necessarily human created) gone awry. Wanting to learn more about other races and in a desire for perfection, the program/computer entity takes on some humanoids, gets big enough to do it en force, and then repeat. Repeat. Repeat. So the entity can still be called the one that is many, but it still recogizes itself (the leader) as one.

Any other ideas? Anyone?

good idea i never thought of that
i had always thought that it was rather like a science experiment gone wrong. You know the scenario: scientist creates nanomachines to conquer ilness, it takes him/her over, his/her desire for power does the rest.

I'm sorry, you are trying to find paralells here instead of an actual intergration of nano tech = AI. Sorry 2 different things entirely. Firstly, nano tech will if any be the first to be used at it's optimum level. It's happening now. AI will not. They are having way too many problems with stability in the system.

Nano is basically this :Get essentially every atom in the right place.
Make almost any structure consistent with the laws of physics that we can specify in molecular detail.
Have manufacturing costs not greatly exceeding the cost of the required raw materials and energy. lithography is also so slow moving atoms that it wont be seen in a long while, however once they remove that problem it will be an endless possibility. As a matter of fact Nanotec is currently being used in many industries, medicine, military etc...

AI is complex axiomatic systems. A complete network of the sum total of selfconciuosness working in unison within itself. No need for human input or intel, as it is/will be an all thinking entity itself.
Also, whilst even AAAI is still comparing artificial intel with 'robo cop' I find that saddening and pathetic itself.

So nano is here with one stumbling block, however, still quite efficient none the less, and poor AI still has many stumbling blocks to overcome. I would dearly hope to see it in my lifetime, however I find the possibility remote to say the very least.

Well for the best example- just look at bees, and their society. They exist as a collective, with all their efforts for the good of the Queen. As their leader, all the rest are her virtual slaves, but whatever actions they take, it is for the group as a whole. The Queen does not make unnecessary demands, nor does she take more than her share of anything. There have been many scientific theories on the idea that a hive of bees operates with a collective subconscious- all the bees being connected to the Queen. She might be the sole leader, a totalitarian dictator I suppose, but her every command is for the group.
I think in a collective group, a leader is necessary, without someone in charge- there are no rules or laws. But that leader has to have the groups good as the basis of all their decisions. Of course, for bees, this is simple. The Queen has to be protected, as she is the reproducer. Without her, the hive would not survive. And without the hive, neither would she. The relationship is very symbiotic, which is probably the only was a collective can survive.

What about two hive minds living inside Mankind which we mistook for being God and Satan. After all, those two never took their fight to the streets or outside the domain of our decisions.

Why is that?

What if 2 hive minds really is the truth about religion and the hidden inner control in our lives. Which the Matrix movie tapped into, addicting us to the movie because it is so close to the hidden truth about the way people have been secretly controlled for centuries.

The left brain. A language centered left brain is build to comminicate with other brains. It is natural for such a brain to be more oriented to group pack behavior. Your shake hands with someone with your right hand which is controlled by your left brain.

Jews and Indians both are language people with great left brains. But they hate working with their hands.
It must be natural for Jews or Indians to act as a group. Jews almost always vote democratic, they lobby together, and I suspect they might have hidden sub-groups to obtain their agendas in business, finance, and the poticial world. Hollywood is 60% jewish executives. Tell me they're not working as a group.

Indians same way. Go to the poor black neighborhoods and you'll see one indian store after another. They never hire us to work inside their stores. Watch us for stealing. And overprice their items. They buy gas station after gas station, working as a group.

Indians and Jews both have this good left brain-bad right brain ratio going for them. Find me even 20 jewish or indian mechanics in some big city.

And we all know the tempers and how ego driven many aritists are. My friend Bob caught on to something big here. What if he is right?

What if God is a left brain hive mind living within mankind.
More jew and indian centered.

What if Satan is his opposite mind of right brain hive minds.
More german and black centered.

This is the matrix in real life isn't it?

Why the movie might have hooked us inside. Because deep inside our souls we knew this battle existed, but the matrix series brought the information close to minds.

And don't you think that if some Jews knew their God was this left-brain hive mind and the reason God choose them to be the Choosen People is because they so good with words. So many lawyers. They would hide it.

It explains why so many of my people don't trust jews. Too many black kids hate jews. Take a poll of black young people and their feelings about jews you'll think you were in germany in the 1935.

Hispanics feel the same way about Indians.

And what is the number one problem for my people? Our crime rates. But a strong right brain to left brain ratio could explain it.
And explain how to change it and solve this problem for us.

So I wait for this genius ******ed white friend to get off his sorry ass and do something. And while I got rich in our field he was blocked by jews and indians from it. And I had to watch jewish hollwood make millions from using his ideas. from comic books to movies. Read the marvel-dc serect war series. These ideas are there. I know where they got them.


But me and bob had a deal. If he got nowhere in 10 years in his field because of them. I get to use everything he done. In 1 month time is up. I have 5 times what hollysteal has. 5 times. My girl is german and blond. Don't need a mystic to tell you which side I'm on. It is all mine. The black man gets his payment.

I'm glad you read Ender's Game, what a wonderful book. Card wrote it as a novella (a short novel as an introduction to the series) but it stands on it's own quite well. Also, there is a parallel novel called Ender's Shadow that is about Bean, he just published it a couple of years ago. Now if you read Speaker For The Dead, Xenocide, and Children of the Mind you will gain a clearer perspective on the Hive mindset. Ender becomes even more intimate with the Hive Queen in these novels. She refers to the buggers as her arms and legs, they all share the same mind, even the other Queens do. But they use each other as appendages.

Also, there are the pequeninos, another alien race who are like little... ewoks (I can't remember what they compared them to) and I won't give away what happens to them when they are cut open... I just love this series, I need to reread it.

I read one of the books. It was quite good. The subject of possible colony minds occupying the human race without our knowledge should be an interesting topic here.

The God vs. Satan war inside Mankind is interesting. Maybe many people are picking up on the idea. BUt Sam was correct about a few observations. I looked at the site he refered to. Its first page was a huge sun and I couldn't help notice that was the last thing in the last Matrix movie.

I remember that was also the last thing I saw in the Babylon 5 series which had a christ like neo figure save many alien species, including humans, from a fight between two waring super aliens.
Not unlike how the last matrix movie was resolved.

You must really like sam, for posting such a long post, huh, kissme (don't mind if I don't).

Back on topic, I don't see the problem with hive minds at all. Perhaps we are all forgetting that we ourselves are hiveminds. A large hive of organs, tissues and cells, working together as one. That one is not an individual cell, but a large part of cells. Very much like our own goverment.

The largest part of our civilization works, and a small part tells them what to do, assuring the survival of the civilization.

In our own body, there is not one dominating cell, not one dictator telling us what to do. So I for one do not believe in the neccesity of a leader.

HU, how did I know you were going to link this thread to the government? ;) But I do like what you said about the body parts working together as a hive within the body.

Originally posted by coolbean
Greetings from the Matrix ...

Just wanted to throw some ideas out there about the hive mind concept. Just got done with the "Ender's Game" series of books by Orson Scott Card and was thinking of the Matrix - came up with some ideas/questions.

Can a hive mind have a leader or (better yet) is a leader an inescapable necessity. I ask this because the idea of having a leader somewhat goes against an idea of a hive mind where everything is shared. In contrast, having a hive mind without any "rules of operation" might be dangerous to those involved and the strongest willed or minded individual could subsume the whole. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but I am also considering a scenario where individual enties enter the hive mind with the idea of becoming part of a whole and not being subsumed by it. I guess it's the conflicting nature of the appeal - that we can have all of this knowledge (which implies a desire for power), while being fearful of being overtaken oneself. Any ideas?

There have been posts about the AI of the matrix and AI's within it and there is also the issue of the agents. What concious structures do you believe are in place in the matrix? I am thinking of a leader conciousness controlling and containing other pseudo-independent AI entities (much like the Hive Queen in Ender's Game). But there is also the question of the agents. They are made different, powerful, and Agent Smith himself is disgusted with his existence in the Matrix. Could the controlling AI of the matrix have lost this one? Since he is strong enough to hate his existance is he strong enough to exist without the "master" AI? Could he control it and rule the matrix? Any ideas are welcome.

this "master" ai probaly doesnt exist or he has no control over the programs or ai within it there are way too many rouge programs and if a program that is created doesnt have a purpose why was it created in the first place, unless the machine or programs that creastes all the programs like the agents (not the architech) is not controlled by this master ai.

and the borg are probaly the best example of a hive mind once the being is assimilated everyu other borg almost instantly knows it and they win, almost every other boopk or tv show ive seen about hive minds they have failed horribly because they didnt think well together, the borg are actually more machine than biological even though having a boby to walk around in might help certain things or they could create maechanical bodies.

Val, you have read too many of my posts.

It seems that you have forgotten that in a hive mind, there must be some kind of boundary, like a thinktank needs a chairman.

Without a lead or guidance hive mind is nowhere.
There are so many voices (if you will) that it is impossible to execute them all. There has to be something that draws a lines and makes the decisions...

then the borg from star trek could be considered to be a different kind of hive miond because therem are no many voices none of the "drones" have any real thoughts their knowledge is collected and the borg queen makes decisions on that info, its like a machine that has control over the entire army and everything is remote-controlled, in fact in no tv show book ect. have i seen a true example of a hive mind with the exception of Val and the hive queens from "Enders game" sereis

incorrect Romulus. You haven't seen to muck Star Trek. It is clearly said on multiple occasions that every drone hears millions of voices.

As I have said before, these voices want something. There has to be something, a law or something similar that directs these voices to one decision.

these voices probaly want to be free like somebody in control of your body and you are nothing more than a helpless bystander,and all you can do is talk which are the voices

and its probaly the hive queen that directs these voices as she/he/it is in control of them