destiny vs control / faith vs cause and effect / purpose vs control

Have you noticed the mutually exclusive belief systems that the W. brothers try and fuse in this film. The closer you get to fusing these ideas, the closer you get to a quantum event.

i.e. chaos and harmony no longer interdependent

control vs destiny no longer interdependent etc.

Why hasn't anyone discussed the matrix within a matrix within a matrix. Zion itself is part of the matrix, not outside of it. (Neo stopped the sentinel the same way he stops bullets)

Neo chose the same door with the architect as he has done before. But what if he choses the other door? Where his purpose and destiny become fused. Neo still beleives he has control. But control is not congruent with destiny, cause and effect or purpose. If one knows their true purpose, they need not control. It is their destiny.

Neo still does not have faith that he is the one or he would have chosen the other door. He believes the architect and not in himself. When he choses the other door during the next cycle, his purpose will be obvious.

What is his purpose? We should discuss this.


p.s. If you really want to warp your mind, play the architect and oracle dialog back to back. It's an old psych interrogation technique/ brainwashing. But who is being brainwashed?

The matrix within a matrix within a matrix has been discussed A LOT on this forum. It's been discussed so much that it is referred to as the MIAM or MIAM theory. It's a very HOT debate the not many want to get into.

I agree with your points about the W brothers fusing beliefs that leave us with a quantum event. I can't wait till November to see just how they will end all of this.

Oh...just a thought,.... have you seen the Animatrix. There is a story called "The Kid". Watch it. It might change your mind.

Man you're pretty new, ain't ya?
For one thing Jaded is right:take a GOOD look around...
for another Neo isn't really known to have chosen exactly the right door he was supposed to take, and even then its not the same door as his predecessors....

Neo would never have chosen the other door because his fate made him chose the one that he did.

Hey Mazman,
When you say "fate", do you mean as in his destiny or do you mean having do other choice considering his love for Trinity?

destiny vs control / faith vs cause and effect / purpose vs control

Have you noticed the mutually exclusive belief systems that the W. brothers try and fuse in this film. The closer you get to fusing these ideas, the closer you get to a quantum event.

i.e. chaos and harmony no longer interdependent

control vs destiny no longer interdependent etc.

Why hasn't anyone discussed the matrix within a matrix within a matrix. Zion itself is part of the matrix, not outside of it. (Neo stopped the sentinel the same way he stops bullets)

Neo chose the same door with the architect as he has done before. But what if he choses the other door? Where his purpose and destiny become fused. Neo still beleives he has control. But control is not congruent with destiny, cause and effect or purpose. If one knows their true purpose, they need not control. It is their destiny.

Neo still does not have faith that he is the one or he would have chosen the other door. He believes the architect and not in himself. When he choses the other door during the next cycle, his purpose will be obvious.

What is his purpose? We should discuss this.


Concerning the MIM theory: The older posts on this forum have covered this topic well. As a matter of fact, its been beaten to death. You shouldn't get caught up with the fact that Neo can stop the Sents without being plugged in. We know that he has developed more unforseen abilities by two ways: part of Agent Smith's code is in him & he has 'touched' the source (though not entered it).

Concerning Neo's destiny and purpose: The W. Bros have not broken any new ground in philosophy or psychology. It is new to those who have never been exposed to these thoughts. Neo v6.0 has developed a more 'free will' due to his love for Trin. Interestingly, who introduces 'true' love into the equation? Its the Oracle. In M1, she introduces it to Trin by telling her that she will fall in luv with the One. This is just another control mechanism to get Neo to fall in Love. This is part of the Oracle's purpose as a program. Her other purposes are to instill the prophecy within Zion, help find the One and then to guide him towards his destiny. She tells him to understand the 'Why' of his choices.

Put it this way. If you understand 'Why' you make the choices that you do, you can then be wiser and freer to make better choices, rather than repeat the same thing over and being a slave to your subconscious will. This is reinforce when Merovingian says understanding the 'Why' separates 'those people' from 'us'. That welds power (in the Matrix that is).

Neo is increasingly exercising his free will and denying his pre-determined destiny. He is still in the process of 'awakening'. His 'GIVEN' purpose is simply to reinstate his code into the mainframe so that the Matrix can be reloaded.


p.s. If you really want to warp your mind, play the architect and oracle dialog back to back. It's an old psych interrogation technique/ brainwashing. But who is being brainwashed?


Sorry, this doesn't wrap the mind at all. Both the Arch & Oracle are two sides of the same coin. Both delivering the same message. Neo is told to do the same thing by both. After he saves his luvyduv, he comes to realize that the Oracle, the prophecy and Zion were all control mechanisms. He tells this to the dreamer Morpheus while in the Neb.

Great thread, Paradox!

I'd just like to point out that "fate" and "control" are not mutually exclusive - apparently. Quantum mechanics and deterministic physics have co-existed for quite a while; some "stuff" is predictable, and, therefore, potentially "controllable" - and other "stuff" is random.

Same concept applies to us. I cannot, for example, control, into which circumstances I am born, but I at least seem to be able to control what I am going to do with my circumstances. I have a degree of control (well, that's what I believe - I do not buy into Newtonian physics and the illusion of free will). Fate exists, but we ourselves are largely responsible for what it will be.

Same with Neo. Remember what he tells Morpheus when he takes the red pill: "I like to think that I am in control of my own life." Well, what does he do after that? Exactly the opposite - that which everybody else (Morpheus, Oracle (who, I think, is largely misunderstood), Architect) tells him. And he does it because he thinks that THAT is his destiny, his purpose.

He doesn't, in fact, know his purpose. Which is not to say that he has no control. I'd like to think that none of us know our destiny, but we are all making choices on a daily basis, exercising "free will" matter-of-factly, causing and controlling various events...

Indeed! Perhaps the lack of free will won't feel so bad if we are still given a choice to choose what we will, no matter what, choose...that's the point of the movie and what gave the Matrix that much control.
That point about Oracle/Arc is very true:sometimes I feel that essence mirrors the God/Satan association...where they draw the line at giving a choice. The Oracle guides but leaves the hard decisions to Neo and doesn't press issues with him. The Arc forces him to make those decisions on the spot though and obviously doesn't make things easy or nice for him at all...

The "Why" thing was also relatively untouched in this forum:that was why they had the example of the woman and her...<ahem> experience. There will be a point for everyone where our conscious, logical mind-the ego-gives way to the id in the presence of unexplainable circumstances. The id-the emotional, feeling-based side-helps one get through situations that we do not expect while the ego attempts to exert control on them...unfortunately we defer too many times to the id in various situations eg rules or laws or bad habits because we do not seek to explain their existance or want to think too much. Understand, and then you will liberate yourself above the trappings. Like sucking your thumb, or constantly falling in love, or following the crowd on seemingly pointless decisions...this is a good point raised Neocon.

Thanx MacLeod. And yes, when Neo fully understands the "Why', he will have become the One (no longer like Grasshoppa'). He will have achieved the highest level of awakening (very Buddhist I know, but true). And the fact that time no longer contains him or as the Oracle said, “You have the sight now”, also points to another “quality” of being God-like, i.e. timelessness. In the end of M2, the coma can symbolize the end of Neo as we know it and a start of something else.

The Oracle encourages Neo to understand the 'Why' so that he can fully achieve his potential. But throughout M2, Neo wants to know what he must do, who he is and what he is. The Oracle pointed out the phrase “Know thy self” to Neo in M1 and after the meeting with The Architect, Neo is beginning to Know and understand his TRUE existence. Only thru transformation from Neo into a new state (via coma), in this case to becoming what he truly is, sort of like the human incarnation of the Architect.

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Hey MacLeod, how is living in S'pore like? I'm considering a change of scenery.

jesus, awesome...

how can that 2 ex-wallpainter did such a work ?meditating ?

'Tis a pleasure Neo(con).
...btw what exactly was "know theyself" in latin?

...Well Singapore is uncomfortably humid and hot most of the time...gave me the habit to treat rainy days as good days really. Should be like...Texas I think. We're right near the equator near Malaysia and Indonesia...around Australia. Ye' have t' squint to see us on the map. We dun have wide-open spaces but its clean and green all over dat's fer sure...

Freedom is so relative in so many ways. Education is suppose to liberate but the more knowledge one has the more enslaved one feels.

I don't think there is any 'real' freedom.... i think freedom is to 'know'-- to really know and to understand...and in our capacities as humans, for some reason we are incapable of knowing. Thus true freedom can never be attained.

There are so many systems... as you move from microscopic to macroscopic levels so the system becomes more complex.
Existence itself is a system -- for God.

I want to know God's thoughts.To be man means to reach toward being God. Or if you prefer, man fundamentally is the desire to be God...the ultimate programmer. Every human reality is a passion in that it projects losing itself so as to found being and by the same stroke to constitute the In-Itself which escapes contingency by being its own foundation, the "Ens causa sui," which religions call GOd. Is this not freedom?

....

Know= nosce
Thyself= te ipsum

This is the Latin translation of a Greek sentence [Greek:"Gnòthi sautòn"] which was on the pediment of the temple of Apollo at Delphi, Greece.

Qool...I hope to pay a vist to S'pore soon.

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exulto:
I agree, true freedom can never be attained. But it is precisely the limitations and restrictions (whether by choice or not) in our lives that gives us meaning. It is those limitations that define our lives. Imagine, if you will, having true freedom to do anything you wanted, life will become meaningless. One finds meaning through the challenges/limitations of life.

Knowing the mind of God is futile and impossible. The term 'god' is simply a human term to describe the indescribable. In general, I don't think Man wants to be god at all, but there will always be those few who do. Concerning a personal god, being one's own god is nothing new. The need to be in charge of one's own destiny is in part a manifestation of that. Self-deception is where Man gets into trouble.

From Sartre: the absence of a Creator leaves man without a predefined nature. Without a nature, individuals are nothingness. In effect, the essence of man is a complete lack of everything. Sartre thought that 'Nothingness' was freedom and free will. Applying this definition of nothingness to individuals, mankind is freedom. Sartre contended that not only was the individual free, but the essence of mankind was freedom. As a result of this freedom, individuals are responsible for all their actions and thoughts.

A major problem for Sartre was the lack of purpose to human existence. As a result, he developed the theory of "Being of G-d" -- the idea that individuals seek to be like or as the mythical G-d.

Your quote from Sartre: To be man means to reach toward being G-d. Or if you prefer, man fundamentally is the desire to be G-d.... Every human reality is a passion in that it projects losing itself so as to found being and by the same stroke to constitute the In-Itself which escapes contingency by being its own foundation, the "Ens causa sui," which religions call G-d.

Back to the Matrix:
Neo learns one of many lessons on the theme of Zen Buddhism: to live in the world of the real, it is necessary to free your mind. Neo must free himself from the "prison" of his mind, refuse to allow it to define what is real for him; in short, he must discover the Zen concept of mushin, or "no-mind." And similarly in Sufism, its about leaving the ego & self-identity behind for higher levels of awakening. The ultimate “goal” is non-existence, Nirvana, Fana (Arabic; perish) or whatever it may be called. As a running theme, Neo undergoes stages of transformation towards his full potential.

Darn good summation, if I ever saw one neocon. precisely wat i feel. True freedom is beyond our ability to comprehend, jus like God. We shouldn't find woe where there really isn't...being human can really be all about being relative.

Neocon...you said what i was meaning but couldn't articulate! Some extremely valid points!!!! Well said!

Has anyone ever wondered why this film was made in Australia?
Don't say because of Zion scenes. Those were mostly mats.

Would you describe yourself as obectively flexible or subjectively firm?

Have you ever read Catcher in the Rye?

Is Matrix a modern day Catcher in the Rye?

Did you know that the CIA cannot legally perform ops in the US?

Are there more newbies or programmers who visit this site?

What common psych trait do programmers have in common?

Can someone alter you belief system?

What are the consequences of destabilizing someone's belief systems?

What are the consequences of two conflicting beleif systems being present at the same time?

oke...uh huh...yea...ok...

what ?

If you think he just confused the hell out of you try reading my forums.

Nice one Paradox. Living up to yer name?
How's this:Who gets the better out of life-those who observe cynically by the side or who dive into it?

Originally posted by Do I Exist?
If you think he just confused the hell out of you try reading my forums.

oh man please dont be so sentimental. im interesting to this forum that i printed it down. its just paradox's question is so confusing for me and doesnt give me any clue.

maybe my posts are worthless, but believe me im always visit this thread to see how it goes.

ok maybe im stupid. but why can i do....im only 19 and studying art heheh

Originally posted by Paradox
Has anyone ever wondered why this film was made in Australia?
Don't say because of Zion scenes. Those were mostly mats.

Have you ever read Catcher in the Rye?

Is Matrix a modern day Catcher in the Rye?

Can someone alter you belief system?


These are the only ones I could answer spontaneously, so here goes....
1) the movies were filmed in Australia because it was cheaper.
2) yes, I have read Catcher in the Rye
3) no I don't think Matrix is a modern CITR. To be honest, I was very dissappointed with that book. I knew it was a 'classic' so I was quite looking forward to it, but nothing happens and the story is so shallow and juvenile.............as you can guess, I didn't like it.
4) I think so, yes. People change faiths all the time. No whether that means that they didn't take the first one seriously or not, I don't know. But people change their minds all the time, and if you have someone who can argue their point well............then, yes it's definitely possible.

I'm still working on coming up with an answer to those questions and to the one at the beginning of the forum, i'm just very lazy, I'm sorry if i came off as cocky, i meant for a wink to be at the end of my post and i was refering to the fact that i am confusing, not that i come up with such good of stuff as half the people here, cause I don't, but plz don't take me the wrong way.

last thing i want to do is sound like a cocky sh*t.

Is Mr. Anderson undergoing a brief psychotic episode?

Are the characters in the movie really his support staff in a psychiatric hospital?

Can you tell the difference between a delusion vs. so called reality?

Will matrix 3 end with him waking up from a psychotic episode but only the viewers of the movie knowing it wasn't a psychotic episode?

How do you know that agents don't really exist?

What if every negative thought you have about yourself is really an agent in your matrix?

What if every comment or critique by another is really an agent in your matrix?

What if you are the "one" and this movie is trying to wake you up but you don't believe it? Why? Negative thoughts about yourself? Agents!!!!


Now drop a hit of acid and re read this forum. Ha Ha

What's with the hate e-mail i've been getting.

No one even replied to my last post, they just sent hate mail.

Ha

Saw the script. Get ready for a mind screw.

A continuous rejection of one's reality leads to freedom, or insanity, depends on your perspective?