Arc: Hello, Neo.
Neo: Who are you?
Arc: I am the Architect. I created the Matrix. I've been waiting for you. You have many questions and though the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human. Ergo, some of my answers you will understand and some of them you will not. Concurrently, while your first question may be the most pertinent, you may or may not realize it is also the most irrelevant.
Neo: Why am I here?
Arc: Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly, which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. While it remains a burden assiduously avoided, it is not unexpected and thus not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you inexorably here.
Neo: You haven’t answered my question.
Arc: Quite right. Interesting. That was quicker than the others.
(screens burst out into questions mostly about "what others")
Arc: The matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case, this is the 6th version.
(screens pretty much all start calling him a liar and or attempting to figure his words out, except one…)
Neo (in one of the screens): There are only two possible explanations: either no one told me, or no one knows. (inside this screen becomes the new scene)
Arc: Precisely. As you are undoubtedly gathering the anomaly is systemic, creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations.
(screens all pretty much start cussing out and flipping off the architect. Again, except one which becomes the new scene)
Neo: Choice. The problem is choice.
(scene changes to the struggle between Trinity and an agent and then back again)
Arc: The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect; it was a work of art. Flawless, Sublime. A Triumph equaled only by it’s monumental failure. The inevitability of it’s doom is apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being. Thus I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would, undoubtedly, be it’s mother.
Neo: The oracle.
Arc: Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solutions whereby nearly 99% of all test subjects accepted the program as long as they were given a choice. Even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level. While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly. That if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ere go, those that refuse the program, while a minority, if unchecked would constitute an escalating probability of disaster.
Neo: This is about Zion.
Arc: You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed. It’s every living inhabitant terminated. It’s entire existence eradicated.
Neo: Bull****! (screens echo this sentiment)
Arc: Denial is the most predictable of all human responses. But rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it. And we have become exceedingly efficient at it.
(another jump to the Trinity/agent struggle and back)
Arc: The function of "The One" is now to return to the source allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix. Which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.
Neo: You won’t let it happen. You can’t. You need human beings to survive.
Arc: There are levels of survival we are prepared to except. However, the relevant issue is whether or not you are ready to except the responsibility for the death of every human being in this world.
(Shows a bunch of random humans on the screens)
Arc: It is interesting reading your reactions. Your five predecessors were, by design, based on a similar predication. A contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of "The One". While the others experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more specific. Vis-a-vis, love.
Neo: Trinity.
Arc: Apropos, she entered the matrix to save your life at the cost of her own.
Neo: No!
Arc: Which brings us, at last, to the moment of truth. Wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed and the anomaly revealed as both beginning and end. There are two doors: The door to your right leads to the source and the salvation of Zion. The door to your left leads back to the matrix to her and to the end of your species. As you adequately put, the problem is choice - but we already know what you are going to do, don’t we? Already I can see the chain reaction, the chemical precursors that signal the onset of an emotion designed specifically to overwhelm logic and reason. An emotion that is already blinding you from the simple and obvious truth: She is going to die and there is nothing you can do to stop it.
(Neo walks toward the left door)
Arc: Humph. Hope. It is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength and your greatest weakness.
Neo: If I were you, I would hope that we don’t meet again.
Arc: We won’t.
(Neo takes his exit) most of us have studied that conversation and watched in repeatedly until our heads hurted to look into the moniter. so I think everything you highlighted in the script, has already been taken into consideration in our debates. but what are you trying to tell us? what are you trying to prove? Neo is a tool to help avoid the disaster that the real anomoly can cause. He's simply an "eventuality," a "measure of control." It's obvious his properties in the matrix are owed to what was allotted to him by those who overlook it:
"...though the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human." Irrevocably, in other words, the machines could change his consciousness and train him to be the way he is, but they can't correct the flaws bound by nature, by humanity. Neo was, "by design," meant to do what he does, he has a function dictated by the machines, "the function of The One"
The Oracle is definitely not the "mother" of the matrix, for he said, "please" with an obviously disproving tone. Notice this part:
"a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche."
What program besides the Oracle, has displayed acute intuitive abilities?
Persephone.
What program is less bound by parameters of perfection? Perfection being rationality not limited by emotions such as love (the kiss with Neo to feel it once more, as if machines are supposed to feel anything), jealousy and vindictiveness ("Cause and effect, my love" - play with words to justify reason through actions driven by emotion).
Persephone.
Why would a machine have the ability to feel love, jealousy and thus the urge for vengence, unless "created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche?" Unless they could understand it as one who studies understands their material.
There's a lot of really obvious stuff in there. I don't know if it's been pointed out yet, but I know I haven't seen it... well ok JMS thank you for proving your points instead of just leaving us with a script
so you are saying that Neo is a tool for controlling the anomaly (the 1%). the machines control his abilities within the matrix by "training" him to be a certain way. and I'm not sure what you meant by flaws bound by nature and humanity.
I don't agree. I believe every grown human has some sort of AI program that alters their conciousness. As the Arc said, 99% of humans accept the program as long as they have a choice, even if it is at a near unconciousness level. that is the process that alters everybody's conciousness. even those who reject the program aren't totally aware of the truth. but that makes Neo the One, he is able to be totally concious of what is happening. since his visit with the Arc, he now knows more than any other previous One (I believe that all previous One's chose the other door) since he has chosen love instead of salvation. now his mind is beginning to become totally free of the AI parameters and barriers which hold him back from the truth. I believe this somehow explains how he stopped the sentinels but I will think about that more before I post a theory on that. and yes, the function of the One is to return to the source. not because he has a little program voice in his head from the machines telling him to go there. he is guided there.....the Prophecy. everybody thought the One was supposed to return to the Source to end the war, but THAT was the control from the machines. it was a lie that led all the Ones to the source in order to upgrade the matrix. but nobody knew it was a lie, and now that Neo knows, his mind is breaking the barriers of his mind from which the AI has instilled in him, what everybody has told him, all the things he was told to believe. besides, the whole theme of the movie is to decide your own fate. now that he is enlightened, he is the only unique One.
now..... as to the "Mother" of the matrix
I believe that it's not the Oracle, and you've presented a generous amount of proof that the mother is Persephone. so I might have to agree with you on that until I find information to prove it otherwise
thank you and goodnight no...the Matrix has YOU... JMS many of your points have already been raised sorry to say but I must raise my opposition to one of your points:the Oracle. I know the Arc says Please and all that but let's remember that much of what the Arc says as you have demonstrated cannot be taken at face value. That coupled with the fact that in each conversation Neo has with the Matrix's resident programs he never says anything wrong, only the obvious answers that the programs appear to feel he arrives late at. "I'd thought u'da figured that out by now" for example.
next I have a few more new points. I believe he says "please" not because he termed the entity Oracle wrong but the name:after all he has described her to be the Oracle hardly seems like the sort of name she deserves. Also note that no program to my memory calls her that-its a human-given name. Even the MeroVingian refers to her as "her", their boss...I'm answering someone else's question about who Morpheus seems to be "taking orders" from:the Oracle not the programming of the machine world. There's a difference... yeah that's a plausible explanation too.....but I'm not really worried about trying to figure out who it really is anyway, it's not that important to me Originally posted by MacLeod
JMS many of your points have already been raised sorry to say but I must raise my opposition to one of your points:the Oracle. I know the Arc says Please and all that but let's remember that much of what the Arc says as you have demonstrated cannot be taken at face value. That coupled with the fact that in each conversation Neo has with the Matrix's resident programs he never says anything wrong, only the obvious answers that the programs appear to feel he arrives late at. "I'd thought u'da figured that out by now" for example.
next I have a few more new points. I believe he says "please" not because he termed the entity Oracle wrong but the name:after all he has described her to be the Oracle hardly seems like the sort of name she deserves. Also note that no program to my memory calls her that-its a human-given name. Even the MeroVingian refers to her as "her", their boss...I'm answering someone else's question about who Morpheus seems to be "taking orders" from:the Oracle not the programming of the machine world. There's a difference...
My points may have been raised, but were they supported?
I haven't demonstrated anything to prove the Arc wrong; I was demonstrating that his words can be taken at face value. I was simply clarifying the meaning in his words. And the MeroVingian calls her a "fortune teller." She's just another rogue program in the matrix - she just has a bigger role, that's all. The Arc's "please" is pretty forthcoming - I highly doubt that the makers of the film would have intended for the word to be said in such a tone otherwise.
If you watch the movie again, you'll notice how they edit scenes and show Persephone in certain instances, to make her "emotions" obvious, and seemingly precognitive. i also feel tha persephony is the mother. i'm not sure what you meant that the machines control neo into becoming the one. could you explain that some more. ....ah well. all i can say is this: look around the other threads about the matrix's "mother"; i've answered enough times on those. If u feel a sexed-up, emotion-DEVOID creature who jus wants to feel human emotions for the sheer pleasure can be the intuitive Mother program who supposedly helped in a large way to shape the matrix as it has become now I suppose u're entitled. for the life of me i can never see why...especially since persephone only appeared in short scenes in 1 out of 2 movies. My opinion is the Oracle;I value both her and the Mother's importance too much to associate anyone else... but the oracle doesnt seem like the type of program created for human emotional responses. the oracle seems more like another perfect program that is trying to help solve the architects equation of choice. you said it yourself, a sexed-up, emotion-DEVOID creature who jus wants to feel human emotions for the sheer pleasure. and the architect said that this intuitive program wasnt designed for perfection. Originally posted by Matrix Warrior
i also feel tha persephony is the mother. i'm not sure what you meant that the machines control neo into becoming the one. could you explain that some more.
Sure. I don't necessarily mean that all the programs in the matrix control Neo, but that Neo is a means to an end, as the MeroVingian had explained "cause and effect," clarifying that reason and/or "why" is power. He also mocked Neo, Morpheus and Trinity saying that they can take orders well, ironically, what they're striving to break free from; he said, in his explanation of the distinction between those with power and those without (choice makers and pawns), "this is how you come to me - without reason, without power." The correlation between why and power is also apparent with the Oracle, who explains why it's important to know "why" Neo will make the choices he does, because the reason is the power, the why is the power.
"You have many questions and though the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human."
Here, the Architect explains that Neo has gone through programming and/or training, in order to carry out the will of machines. He also adds that despite this programming and/or training, he still remains human (because that could not be changed).
"Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly, which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. While it remains a burden assiduously avoided, it is not unexpected and thus not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you inexorably here."
The Architect explains that the system they use at present is "fundamentally flawed," since only 99% of humans accept the matrix. This means the the "equation" is not in balance, thus imperfection becomes a remainder of that equation and Neo is the tool to vanquish that remainder, that imperfection. This is how he comes into play with the equation of the matrix. Clarifying this with more concision, the Architect says that the imperfection and/or the anomoly is "not beyond a measure of control," that measure of control being Neo, he's led, inexorably (without possibility for being any other way, inflexibly, without choice) to the Architect's "office."
"You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed. It’s every living inhabitant terminated. It’s entire existence eradicated."
Neo was meant to end up at the Architect's place, because Zion is being destroyed, and the machines need Neo to reach their goal. Neo is their means to an end, he is there tool, their pawn - "without reason, without why," for he does not make choices, he follows orders. Basically, they don't want Neo to die, because he's necessary to eliminate their problem, the anomoly.
"The function of The One is now to return to the source allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female 7 male, to rebuild Zion."
Here, it becomes more obvious. The Architect can clearly dictate Neo's "function" as The One, for he's a tool - the Architect is explaining to Neo what he's a tool for at present, or how he is to be used rather.
"Your five predecessors were, by design, based on a similar predication. A contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of The One."
Another obvious reference to Neo's fabrication, "your five predecessors, by design." The Architect further explains that Neo was engineered, and he also goes into more detail about why Neo is supposed to feel the way he does, supposed to do the things he does. To facilitate his function as a tool, as a pawn, as The One. so, if he is a tool for the machines, why didnt they know that he was gonna pick the other door or is that part of their plan? no u don't see the point:by saying the Mother was intuitive the Arc never meant she was jus emotional. Intuition is a form of intelligence as well as emotion. Understanding why a person cried or loved or felt happy isn't everything-its understanding their complex gut feelings and decisions. You need wisdom and intellect, not be a creature of emotion yourself-what's the point in that? Remember the Mother is trying to find out-or shall i say already found out why humans rejected the Matrix, not that Neo would choose one door because of Trinity. She dealt with the whole race not just Neo.
Finally with all the past tense used the Arc implied the job was done. What do you do once u knew how the humans behaved? Shape them, guide them, stay with them though u don't need to "feel" them anymore...not manipulate them or distance yourself from them. Thus the Oracle being wiser (not smarter-there's the human factor) and a prime shaper of humanity's struggle is the prime candidate. By guiding them with prophecies and all and predicting Neo's thoughts she's proven she knows humans inside and out-she doesn't even need to be told how much Neo loved Trinity! Everytime I looked in her eyes it held a sort of love for humanity and Neo...but in Persephone's I see nothing but herself. Outward and inward...so there's my view... Intuitive meaning, being able to predict or see things coming. When I refer to Persephone as intuitive, I'm referencing her facial expressions throughout her husbands discourse, her knowledge of where her husband was, where he was kissed, where to find Neo, Morphues and Trinity, etc. Intuitive has nothing to do with her understanding of human emotion.
Another reason why I stress that Persephone is the prime subject is, not only because she fits all the criteria, but because I heard something on T.V. once that made Persephone's role out to be MUCH larger than shown so far.
so, if he is a tool for the machines, why didnt they know that he was gonna pick the other door or is that part of their plan?
That's where the plot becomes vague. That's where the suspense is. You don't know if they planned it as they've planned everything else, you just know that so far it's all been planned but that now, at the moment of truth, it's up for grabs.
This one is tricky, it is mentioned by the Architect, but it's unclear just because it's such an important decision.
"As you adequately put, the problem is choice - but we already know what you are going to do, don’t we?" <-- according to that, his decision is already predetermined anyway, so it shouldn't really make a difference. I think Neo is acting the way he has been programmed to. That's another reason why everyone is placing such a great emphasis on "why" as opposed to the actual result of the reason, or the action itself. Er...i dunno how that last bit affects things. Anyway Persephone only knows what happened with stuff like the MeroVingian kissing and all because any wife stuck with a promiscous husband (expecially through numerous matrixes) would-you dun need some special gift. I dun know how all that prediction of lust can qualify her to be some resident expert on intuition really...and what would the mother of the Matrix be doing right next to the MeroVingian all this time? She's nowhere near the Father and likely doesn't even know he exists, says and does nothing except french-style-jealous-spouse-out-to-spite-her-husband routines and yeah kiss Neo. Oh I'm sure that changes him; alters his thinking;tests his ability to be the One. I guess that happened to Niobe/Ghost too-EtM.
My impression is that the Mother foremost has a deep understanding of human thinking and second as a result is good at exercising some form of control. The first one you've defended in a way I can't see your point, then the second I can't see at all. She controls nothing:she only did what she did because she jumped at a chance-any chance to exert some control over Neo/Ghost/Niobe...even her husband, when she could...hence the kissing thing. Thus she doesn't mystify me-she disgusts me.
My final point here is you can't bank on wordplay and the ambiguous facial expression of an entity supposed to exemplify Control and Deception to support what you mean-you need solid proof, or at least a whole lot of clues. Ya need to do better than that to prove Persephone has that high a purpose. macleod, sounds to me like you just dont like persephony. if you dont thats fine, but i think your using your dislike a bit too much in your judgements on her. what exactly turns you off about her anyways? just wonderin. I appreciate your comment;in fact i was wondering when anyone would raise it...i'm surprised myself at that. I guess i've given the reasons...another strong one is that i hate her as much as i do the MeroVingian because in contrast to everybody else in the movie they seemed like animals-fighting only for their own selfish pleasures and ends. Neo n crew were fighting for their lives, Smith for his thirst for power and even the Arc for Order...next to them the duo seem without purpose; merely grasping for anything that comes to them and spiting each other along the way...that is to say I dun hate the actors-in fact i now admire them even more. But those characters will always boil my blood... Originally posted by MacLeod
I appreciate your comment;in fact i was wondering when anyone would raise it...i'm surprised myself at that. I guess i've given the reasons...another strong one is that i hate her as much as i do the MeroVingian because in contrast to everybody else in the movie they seemed like animals-fighting only for their own selfish pleasures and ends. Neo n crew were fighting for their lives, Smith for his thirst for power and even the Arc for Order...next to them the duo seem without purpose; merely grasping for anything that comes to them and spiting each other along the way...that is to say I dun hate the actors-in fact i now admire them even more. But those characters will always boil my blood...
Macleod, you're suffering from Architect complex...
"I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection."
The answer is eluding you... As you've clearly stated, Persiphone is definitely not perfect. She has her faults, so she's obviously less bound by parameters of perfection. ^_^ Originally posted by MacLeod
Er...i dunno how that last bit affects things. Anyway Persephone only knows what happened with stuff like the MeroVingian kissing and all because any wife stuck with a promiscous husband...
Well, If I had an untrustworthy mate, I'd probably pick up on it as well, but I doubt I'd know where she'd been with the other person, or where the other person left kiss marks under clothing... Sigh...its not a kiss, its...you know! And its all figurative!
JMS...u saying things like that "needing a lesser mind" is a little like people out there saying "free your mind"...so that means I can claim any other flawed woman out there is the Mother? Niobe perhaps? He said "lesser" not "poor"...you have to have the touch of things like compassion, love, wisdom...not be cold n aloof...everything Persephone does distances herself from the humans...note that Neo took till the second movie to pronounce that the Oracle was a program...so "full of the milk of human kindness"(Macbeth) was she. Persephone takes what she wants from the humans (those little tastes of emotion) and then throws them away like so much unneeded toys...also like I said distancing herself from the whole human race. did u see her interact with anybody but the "freed" humans? Her looking down on humanity was all that needed to say she couldn't care less for it! Maybe its an act you say? So whose lives has she touched/altered instead? By your theory Neo...and Neo alone.(let's not count Niobe/Ghost)...so much for the Mother figure. I tend to agree with Macleod....I don't see Persephone as a mother type. If M3 reveals that she is the mother of the matrix, M3 will have to explain what altered her feeling toward humans. As Macleod stated, CLEARLY she is out for herself now. Originally posted by MacLeod
Sigh...its not a kiss, its...you know! And its all figurative!
JMS...u saying things like that "needing a lesser mind" is a little like people out there saying "free your mind"...so that means I can claim any other flawed woman out there is the Mother? Niobe perhaps? He said "lesser" not "poor"...you have to have the touch of things like compassion, love, wisdom...not be cold n aloof...everything Persephone does distances herself from the humans...note that Neo took till the second movie to pronounce that the Oracle was a program...so "full of the milk of human kindness"(Macbeth) was she. Persephone takes what she wants from the humans (those little tastes of emotion) and then throws them away like so much unneeded toys...also like I said distancing herself from the whole human race. did u see her interact with anybody but the "freed" humans? Her looking down on humanity was all that needed to say she couldn't care less for it! Maybe its an act you say? So whose lives has she touched/altered instead? By your theory Neo...and Neo alone.(let's not count Niobe/Ghost)...so much for the Mother figure.
Whoa. Where are you getting all this stuff about Persephone? You watching a movie everyone else didn't? She only sits at a table, and later talks to the human trio, alone! She never talks about looking down on humans, never makes ugly faces at anyone in the restaurant or anything. You're totally seeing things your way, and you've got nothing to see! Nothing in the movie has shown Persephone to be anything like what you've described. Give me scenes, give me proof, Mcleod!
It ain't there.
You can't claim any flawed woman can be the mother. For one, Persephone is the only individual that is, part of the matrix, a program, integral to the system, with flaws that resemble humanity. Niobe is not part of the matrix, she's just plugged into it, she's human. When the Architect says, "less bound by the parameters of perfection," he means something along the lines of acting closer to human than machine, or being able to understand the humans, not just having some random flaws. And your comparison of my argument to "free your mind" was totally out there... It made no sense. What'd you mean? And why would you consider Niobe flawed or "poor?" You have something aginast her as well?!
Why do you hate Persephone so much? You're a little too bias, my friend. What's up? If you've seen something elsewhere, please elaborate on the reasons behind your argument, rather than just giving your opinion. It seems like you're not being objective, and more like you're conjuring your own character, rather than working with substantial evidence. What are your sources? What are your reasons?
Persephone is cold blooded, why?
Persephone is evil, why?
Persephone looks down on humans, when? Where?
Persephone plays with emotions and "throws them away like so much unneeded toys," when? Where? JMS is putting some good points together. i never really saw Persephony the way you saw it Macleod. i just wanna add another point. if you think that she dislikes the human race, or at least the humans still plugged in, then why even go through the trouble of helping neo? she knows his cause and what he wants to accomplish. it would seem pretty stupid to help him save what she doesnt like. Originally posted by Matrix Warrior
JMS is putting some good points together. i never really saw Persephony the way you saw it Macleod. i just wanna add another point. if you think that she dislikes the human race, or at least the humans still plugged in, then why even go through the trouble of helping neo? she knows his cause and what he wants to accomplish. it would seem pretty stupid to help him save what she doesnt like.
Unless it just seemed like salvation, but was really... DAMNATION!!!
TUN, TUN, TUN!!!!!
But that's a separate issue. I think Persephone is acting out of jealousy and vengence. Lesser bound, my friends... Hehe.
Sorry for being too silly. i mostly agree with all your theory (but haven't checked that forum for quite a while).
i even posted an idea of persephone being the mother of the matrix and the merovingian being the Matrix representation of the ARC, but i didn't have any responses on that one.
the problem, is although it looks like a greek tragedy, there is probably a notion of free will over determinism (that's my views on the subject).the whole thema of M1 would become pointless, and what's the point for the machines introducing love at the 6th version of the matrix if it was working fine before? choice introduce love, although the path is traced.a multiple of possibilities leading to a point.
there are 2 doors, a choice is still possible.is he pre-programmed ? we all are. by the machines ? love ? others ? ...
:) I don't know about the merovingian. One quote I always found interesting was when Neo and smith meet for a second time, Neo asks smith what he wants and Smith replies to him "I want the samething you do, everything"
I'm not exactly sure what he means by that. By "everything," Agent Smith actually means this:
Big Mac®, fries, and a strawberry shake.
J/K.
Yeah, that is interesting. I'm guessing maybe he means to take down the entire system. I don't know if I already mentioned my theory about Neo and Smith; I think Smith is a virus (the anomoly), and that the machines want to use Neo to stop him (Smith). You get a feeling the system is threatened by Smith when the new, main agent looks at Smith in disgust, to then comment with discord, "you..."
Also, notice how the oracle is quickly taken out of the area just before smith arrives. I think that's been commented on already by someone else in another thread. You want proof JMS? Consult your Intuitive side!
Look carefully at Persephone and the Oracle. I made alot of harsh statements yes but all that i've seen jus by body language. She looks at her guests with half-closed (clearly bored) eyes. The only line she said was to her husband and she and her husband sit at a grand table far from the patrons;distancing themselves from it. Now I dun know why u started hurling insults at me when i was hurling them at a movie character but let me go on. I ask you:how can she ever give you the feeling she's so important when she says only what she says, and walks, talks and acts so different from others? She constantly gives me the impression she's not human because she acts like so...I can't explain...jus look at her body language like i said and note that she doesn't touch a single person except when she kisses. During the kiss scene she clearly intimidates, revelling in the conflict she causes in all 3 of them. That's cold. Note again her veiled taunts when Neo wasn't "performing as expected" and the look on her eyes throughout. Then remember that when they were finally discovered she replies to her husband's claim that it was all a game that "this one" was too-all a game; for fun. Again note also that the MeroVingian says "that woman will be the death of me" implying 2 things:she's been doing such things to spite him regularly for him to expect that and she's been doing it for a significant amount of time...no way the Mother can be caught doing this with all the stuff she should do. Then note that everything she did was short and sweet in an almost business-like manner. She cares not what everyone else feels...get kiss, warn husband, get thrill of making everyone angry, abandon kissers to their fate. Selfish to me.
Now look at the Oracle. She's found each and every time in homey places, a kitchen and a parkbench for example. Always surrounded by people. She's friendly and wise...not just emotional but clearly beyond it...like how your mom would be after she mellowed and matured. She's compassionate, and that's a very strong part of humanity that springs from its emotions but is not as animal as that. Compassion can be said to be a human failing and machines dun have it-ergo:lesser. It's only logical that the machines needed an understanding of compassion not just emotion to understand the humans, and anyway the Mother must have it to classify as "lesser mind". Emotion? Check. Compassion? Double check. Persephone? 2 flat zeroes.
About that "lesser mind" thing i'm sorry if i miffed u when i made my comparison but my point was it was too general. you're saying "lesser mind" is very ambiguous because it applies to everybody, every woman, even the Oracle....which gives u an illusion that Persephone is more deserving over the title than any other when she may not...its like "free your mind" when someone says an obscure theory that is as easy or hard to believe than any other but deserves to be considered more because "free your mind" was said...its like a taunt. I dunno if i explained it logically enough.
In the end JMS I jus wanna say that movies depend also on atmosphere and setting to show more than words can. if the Oracle was a young stunning beauty for example or Persephone was less cold the lines would be the same but the effect would be completely changed. Good n bad are typecast in movies because they have to be to put a strong idea out to the audience. I feel I've raised many points that show the Oracle is more worthy of being the Mother than Persephone is while you cling on to your same ones and question mine. it's alright to argue points but i can't see why yours can still be valid. After all you even admitted in the end she's out for jealousy and vengeance.
Last of all Warrior I didn't say she hates humans; she looks down on them. jus the way she treats her underlings show a disrespect for jus about everything else but herself. Why would she help Neo? Simple:to help herself. For pleasure and a chance to spite her husband, Trinity even. Why let the humans live? Well who would u have power over then? Like royalty over peasants....
P.S what's wrong wif this forum? Traffic's been a killer lately or someone's been doing maintenance but I'm taking forever to get this reply out... You want proof JMS? Consult your Intuitive side!
Look carefully at Persephone and the Oracle. I made alot of harsh statements yes but all that i've seen jus by body language. She looks at her guests with half-closed (clearly bored) eyes. The only line she said was to her husband and she and her husband sit at a grand table far from the patrons;distancing themselves from it. Now I dun know why u started hurling insults at me when i was hurling them at a movie character but let me go on. I ask you:how can she ever give you the feeling she's so important when she says only what she says, and walks, talks and acts so different from others? She constantly gives me the impression she's not human because she acts like so...I can't explain...jus look at her body language like i said and note that she doesn't touch a single person except when she kisses. During the kiss scene she clearly intimidates, revelling in the conflict she causes in all 3 of them. That's cold. Note again her veiled taunts when Neo wasn't "performing as expected" and the look on her eyes throughout. Then remember that when they were finally discovered she replies to her husband's claim that it was all a game that "this one" was too-all a game; for fun. Again note also that the MeroVingian says "that woman will be the death of me" implying 2 things:she's been doing such things to spite him regularly for him to expect that and she's been doing it for a significant amount of time...no way the Mother can be caught doing this with all the stuff she should do. Then note that everything she did was short and sweet in an almost business-like manner. She cares not what everyone else feels...get kiss, warn husband, get thrill of making everyone angry, abandon kissers to their fate. Selfish to me.
Now look at the Oracle. She's found each and every time in homey places, a kitchen and a parkbench for example. Always surrounded by people. She's friendly and wise...not just emotional but clearly beyond it...like how your mom would be after she mellowed and matured. She's compassionate, and that's a very strong part of humanity that springs from its emotions but is not as animal as that. Compassion can be said to be a human failing and machines dun have it-ergo:lesser. It's only logical that the machines needed an understanding of compassion not just emotion to understand the humans, and anyway the Mother must have it to classify as "lesser mind". Emotion? Check. Compassion? Double check. Persephone? 2 flat zeroes.
About that "lesser mind" thing i'm sorry if i miffed u when i made my comparison but my point was it was too general. you're saying "lesser mind" is very ambiguous because it applies to everybody, every woman, even the Oracle....which gives u an illusion that Persephone is more deserving over the title than any other when she may not...its like "free your mind" when someone says an obscure theory that is as easy or hard to believe than any other but deserves to be considered more because "free your mind" was said...its like a taunt. I dunno if i explained it logically enough.
In the end JMS I jus wanna say that movies depend also on atmosphere and setting to show more than words can. if the Oracle was a young stunning beauty for example or Persephone was less cold the lines would be the same but the effect would be completely changed. Good n bad are typecast in movies because they have to be to put a strong idea out to the audience. I feel I've raised many points that show the Oracle is more worthy of being the Mother than Persephone is while you cling on to your same ones and question mine. it's alright to argue points but i can't see why yours can still be valid. After all you even admitted in the end she's out for jealousy and vengeance.
Last of all Warrior I didn't say she hates humans; she looks down on them. jus the way she treats her underlings show a disrespect for jus about everything else but herself. Why would she help Neo? Simple:to help herself. For pleasure and a chance to spite her husband, Trinity even. Why let the humans live? Well who would u have power over then? Like royalty over peasants....
P.S what's wrong wif this forum? Traffic's been a killer lately or someone's been doing maintenance but I'm taking forever to get this reply out... ....posted this twice. Darn traffic...:D Originally posted by MacLeod
You want proof JMS? Consult your Intuitive side!
Look carefully at Persephone and the Oracle. I made alot of harsh statements yes but all that i've seen jus by body language. She looks at her guests with half-closed (clearly bored) eyes. The only line she said was to her husband and she and her husband sit at a grand table far from the patrons;distancing themselves from it. Now I dun know why u started hurling insults at me when i was hurling them at a movie character but let me go on. I ask you:how can she ever give you the feeling she's so important when she says only what she says, and walks, talks and acts so different from others? She constantly gives me the impression she's not human because she acts like so...I can't explain...jus look at her body language like i said and note that she doesn't touch a single person except when she kisses. During the kiss scene she clearly intimidates, revelling in the conflict she causes in all 3 of them. That's cold. Note again her veiled taunts when Neo wasn't "performing as expected" and the look on her eyes throughout. Then remember that when they were finally discovered she replies to her husband's claim that it was all a game that "this one" was too-all a game; for fun. Again note also that the MeroVingian says "that woman will be the death of me" implying 2 things:she's been doing such things to spite him regularly for him to expect that and she's been doing it for a significant amount of time...no way the Mother can be caught doing this with all the stuff she should do. Then note that everything she did was short and sweet in an almost business-like manner. She cares not what everyone else feels...get kiss, warn husband, get thrill of making everyone angry, abandon kissers to their fate. Selfish to me.
Now look at the Oracle. She's found each and every time in homey places, a kitchen and a parkbench for example. Always surrounded by people. She's friendly and wise...not just emotional but clearly beyond it...like how your mom would be after she mellowed and matured. She's compassionate, and that's a very strong part of humanity that springs from its emotions but is not as animal as that. Compassion can be said to be a human failing and machines dun have it-ergo:lesser. It's only logical that the machines needed an understanding of compassion not just emotion to understand the humans, and anyway the Mother must have it to classify as "lesser mind". Emotion? Check. Compassion? Double check. Persephone? 2 flat zeroes.
About that "lesser mind" thing i'm sorry if i miffed u when i made my comparison but my point was it was too general. you're saying "lesser mind" is very ambiguous because it applies to everybody, every woman, even the Oracle....which gives u an illusion that Persephone is more deserving over the title than any other when she may not...its like "free your mind" when someone says an obscure theory that is as easy or hard to believe than any other but deserves to be considered more because "free your mind" was said...its like a taunt. I dunno if i explained it logically enough.
In the end JMS I jus wanna say that movies depend also on atmosphere and setting to show more than words can. if the Oracle was a young stunning beauty for example or Persephone was less cold the lines would be the same but the effect would be completely changed. Good n bad are typecast in movies because they have to be to put a strong idea out to the audience. I feel I've raised many points that show the Oracle is more worthy of being the Mother than Persephone is while you cling on to your same ones and question mine. it's alright to argue points but i can't see why yours can still be valid. After all you even admitted in the end she's out for jealousy and vengeance.
Last of all Warrior I didn't say she hates humans; she looks down on them. jus the way she treats her underlings show a disrespect for jus about everything else but herself. Why would she help Neo? Simple:to help herself. For pleasure and a chance to spite her husband, Trinity even. Why let the humans live? Well who would u have power over then? Like royalty over peasants....
P.S what's wrong wif this forum? Traffic's been a killer lately or someone's been doing maintenance but I'm taking forever to get this reply out...
Originally posted by MacLeod
My final point here is you can't bank on wordplay and the ambiguous facial expression...
Looks like you just "blanked" on "ambiguous facial expression[s]."
First, she never looks down on humans or anything with her expressions. If you watch the scene again, most of the expressions she makes are throughout the time her husband speaks of the girl and his cake program. She obviously knows he's into that girl, and that's why she seems the way she does.
Second, when did I say she had to be friendly, or even want to help mankind anyway? Mother. figuratively. The father is prepared to accept the death of mankind... What would be your argument to that? Fathers always want to kill their children in real life?
Third, it doesn't matter what the Oracle does; she can't be the mother. Not only is she an exiled program, the Architect blatantly disproves it.
Fourth, when did I insult you? What insults did I hurl at you? Did I call you a name? I was a in a bit of a playful mood maybe, but insulting? I don't think so.
Fifth... I just wanted to say "fifth." ^_^ i cant understand why everyone is automatically led to believe that the mother of the matrix is someone with the qualities of the mother. like JMS said, the architect doesnt exactly live up to his status of being the father of the matrix, why should the mother be any different. she is a machine just like the architect. Oh but he does Warrior. At least he resembles mine. When we describe Mother we point out two things:a role philosophically related to the Father role the Arc puts out and the importance the term Mother implies to the whole Matrix...her family.
First the Arc gives out the stereotypical control figure a father has...also related to the ego portion of one's mind. Therefore the Mother has to be the id...a counterbalance to the exertion of control. She has to be in order to disagree with the Arc. Why disagree? If not she wouldn't be a lesser mind. Why kind and motherly? Because I focus on compassion. Being cold and remote cannot be the traits you need to understand mankind-you cannot be removed from mankind to understand him-that'd be jus like being the Architect. If you watch the Enter the Matrix movies Ghost and Niobe both enter her room while she watches a TV showing them doing jus that...indicating a form of surveilance n thus control. OK so all this is philosophical and may be disproved. Next point:
The Mother program has to be actively or at least largely involved in humanity to be able to do what she can. How can Persephone do that if she lives in a 100+ storey building surrounded by computer lackeys and such? The Oracle actively gets herself involved with humans to be able to understand and in a way control them. How better to do that than get yourself involved closely? And how better to get yourself involved than be like the humans you observe? And also maybe she being disconnected from the system she would not be needed to perform her duties of observation. What would she do then consider her former status and the knowledge she acquired? Hide somewhere and disconnect all activity from the humans? Or work alongside or jus with them for a different purpose? Both may seem possible but with compassion included I'd choose the Oracle.
And then Warrior you're correct about one thing:she's a program like the Arc. But not like any other! remember the bench conversation?
Neo:"Are there other programs like you?"
Oracle:"No, not like Me, but..."
That clear to you? If its ambiguous well I say the same thing about the Arc's expression at the Oracle. It's Not blatant.
...Which brings me to JMS.
"You're totally seeing things your way, and you've got nothing to see!"
"You have something aginast her as well?!"
"You're a little too bias, my friend. What's up?"
I'm sorry if I took them harshly but I normally do. I appreciate it too when u finally gave me some solid arguments in your last reply but before that I had nothing to work against and it confounded me to hear that reply. I believe I've answered your questions better now, and here's more.
I dun draw on jus the dining scene for Persephone's overall Smith-like disgust with the human race...note her actions in the washroom scene...why'd she choose the male one after all? The way she took a much keener interest as usual in the faces of the trio during the kiss scene too...
Then, the Oracle isn't exactly proven to be like any other exiled program. Look up my earlier quote. Persephone is one too by the way.
And about banking on the wordplay part. I admit I did my own similar banking but I added them all up-yours was jus going on one version of wat the Arc was possibly saying. If i was banking on facial expressions and wordplay...well at least I have more. :p sorry to be antagonistic so far...this is perhaps my hardest-fought argument I've ever had so naturally I'm enthusiastic-no offense :D Three points:
1. You've got a good point Matrix Warrior. I suppose the Mother of the Matrix doesn't HAVE to possess motherly qualities. Perhaps the term "mother" was used in the sence of giving birth. As we all know everyone who gives birth doesn't HAVE to love their offspring.
2. It's totally possible for the Mother of the Matrix to have done here job (realizing that humans need choice) and later choose exile for herself.
3. Persephone is an exiled program just as the Oracle is, so I'm a little lost on what you meant JMS. It never says Persephone is an exile, actually.
Sorry Macleod, but your latest arguments seem as unfounded as your earlier ones. You go by your personal opinion too often. You have to look at it from an unbiased point of view, purely obtective - otherwise you'll have holes in your theories which can backfire.
example:
"At least he resembles mine."
"First the Arc gives out the stereotypical control figure a father has..."
"Persephone's overall Smith-like disgust with the human race..."
Those are just your opinions, and stereotypes don't define something - that's why they're called stereotypes. I have seen the movie three times in theatres and like twenty times at home (key scenes anyway), I see nothing that shows Persephone disliking anyone but her husband, and maybe the guy peeing in the fountain. If you had more substantial evidence, then I'd be inclined to considering your argument, but at present I don't acquiesce to the points you've made. Here's what I meant by stereotypes and all JMS...u ever studied literature? Ever notice how with a single 1st scene in say MacBeth we can discern the characteristics of everyone shown and even talked about off-scene? If you were to be too objective in every scene in every movie you'd have too little facts to go by. That's why movies have stereotypes and why they end up spawning various opinions on them. The strongest opinion I would believe is the one that has the most going for them.
For example for the Arc we see that he is male, exerts control and says a line"If I am the Father" then also the similar Persephone case...can u imagine her being say a philanthropist or mother of kids when she wasn't dealing with Neo's crew?...if you wanna be objective and wait for her to say "I hate you humans!" there'd be no art and definitely no time. Another example:the Oracle. We feel halfway through the movie that maybe she's like what Neo says:another form of control working for the machines all along. Yet I think most of us end up feeling alright about her because of her disarming personality. Such points are there as a whole for a reason. It can end up being ambiguous yes but that's why all kinds of views end up being spawned.
Again on the Arc you say you have to be objective? Why did he say "Please" then instead of "Of course not! What were you thinking?" They did this to promote discussion, which we are doing now, the ambiguousness of which I am banking on.
...Which brings me, Smith-like, to the reason why we're here. We're not here because we have a theory that's absolutely right we're here because we arrived at both our views via unconfirmed evidence-yes yours too-and we're comparing notes. I must've been carried away so I'll acquiesce on my part that ultimately none of us is right...we jus have to admit that the opposite isn't wrong too. I'm sorry...I keep forgetting sometimes the meaning of "free speech"...now I'm trying to see how your point makes sense...but I wanna see more ways too... Movies rarely follow the guidelines that literature does, especially when dealing with rhetorical devices, such as tone, diction, syntax, etc. This is because the story is spoken/heard, leaving no room for confusion, whereas, in novels, plays, etc. you need to have something that illustrates the writer's intention, since you cannot hear what is being said, it isn't conveyed with the efficacy that is available through oratory means. And you describe the Architect as a stereotypical father figure, when I don't think he fits a stereotype, even. I'm not saying my theories are proven without doubt, I'm saying they have more substantial support than the ones you've given.
And about the use of the word, "please." In movies, since the tone is spoken, they don't use ambiguity. In literature, you can have a "tone" but leave things ambiguous, however, in movies, it's spoken, so the tone is always sincere. If he meant it to be amiguous, it wouldn't have sounded so negative; again, we can hear the way the word is said, if it were simply written out on a page, then you'd have a better grip on that argument, but it's a movie, not a novel or play.
I understand you're enthusiastic about your theories and ideas, and I apologize if you've come to dislike my rebuttals. Just remember, it's not really your arguments I don't concur with, it's your delivery. O...K...I'll try to remember that.
...But you're wrong on that difference between films and plays. Dun forget Shakespeare plays are all about live action, not books. A few more examples are like Dracula or actually everywhere...very few movies ask for us to be completely unbiased. Jabba is fat and repulsive because he needs to to mirror his personality. Marty McFly was always in trendy clothes and 'do because till he met Prof Brown being cool is the only thing important in his life. Picard likes to pull on his uniform in a neat tuck to straighten them because he's a very ordered person. And so on...movies have to create stereotypes so as not to confuse the audience. They can make a few surprises for variety but mostly only on main characters-people we can afford alot of time to get to know. For the Arc; Persephone, even the Oracle...they have to fall back on stereotypes.
Ok so with the Arc I'm listing a stereotype that somehow doesn't agree with yours. There are many! What would u expect of him then? I offered the classic English one...the oldest model. He sure looked like one....white beard and deep voice n all. More stereotypes in the movie itself:Niobe is silent but lets her actions speak her words:in accordance with the tough-as-nails stereotype. Ditto for Trin. Mallard is the same old "Jamaican tough punk" type...only surprise here is he's also a captain. Seraph is the typical "Chinese kung fu expert wif the accent"...need I say more? A few moments with them or only their very appearances speak all we need to know...in preparation for their later scenes. All I'm saying is we've probably said enough about our views to arrive at a stalemate without going on to insult our views, but I'd like to reaffirm the value of stereotypes, settings and looks of people and scenes in movies to create the needed impression. I hope I have...? the Oracle stated that exile programs come to the Matrix to hide. M2, although informing us that the Merovingian (sp?) is a trafficer of information, doesn't give me a reason to believe that the Merovingian and Persephone are working under the direction of the Arc. therefore, I believe they are exiles.
Also, when the Arc says "Please" to Neo's conclusion that the Oracle is the mother of the Matrix, I took his tone to mean he (the Arc) disapproved of calling that program Oracle. Just as she is hiding in a shell, I'm sure her name isn't Oracle. It's just the name the humans know her by.
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to much plagerism! - A Strange Quickening...
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