In another forum on this site, the following question was posted to me. Given its unrelated nature to the Matrix. I have moved the discussion here. Follow it if you like; don't if you don't.
originally posted by SIGHT
G.A.O.T.U."Q-Is Freemasonry a secret society?
A-A secret society is one that hides itself from the public. Freemasons make no attempt to hide themselves from the public. Many buildings have Masonic markings on them (the Square and Compasses, usually with a "G" in the middle). In the US, there are hundreds, if not thousands of websites by Grand Lodges, Lodges and individual Masons discussing Freemasonry. The Grand Lodge to which I belong publishes its officers and the officers of the lodges in its jurisdiction (see http://www.dcgrandlodge.org/gloffrs.htm and also http://www.dcgrandlodge.org/lgoffr02.htm ).
In addition, Freemasons in the US give approximately $2,000,000 every day to charities. All Shriners are Freemasons. Shriners operated over 20 hospitals in the US for burned and crippled children, all for free.
These are not the activities of a secret society. "
SIGHT- ok, then show us all of your hand shakes and tell us all of the meanings.
As I have posted in another area, the handshakes (we call them grips or tokens) are one of the methods by which we identify each other as Masons. These are our only "secrets". I am sure other fraternities, Alpha Phi Alpha for instance, have methods by which to distinguish other members of their fraternity, especially since many college fraternities have taken some of their structure from Freemasonry. Our grips and passwords are one of the very few things I will not divulge to a non-Mason.
G.A.O.T.U."Q-Does Freemasonry accept Catholics as members?
A-It accepts all good men who profess a belief in a Supreme Being. Further investigation into the specifics of that belief is not appropriate. "
SIGHT-what if that person thinks satan is that being?
This is, of course, a common question. I don't know how this would be handled. My guess is that most lodges would not accept someone who held this belief. I would further guess that such a person would not petition for membership in a Masonic lodge in the first place alleviating the whole issue. ;)
However, that having been said, each lodge determines its own membership by ballot, usually requiring that it be unanimously favorable. And given that there are 6 million Masons in the world, I suppose it might be possible to find some small number out there that would fit such a description. If that person is out there, I haven't met him.
On the other hand, some religious faiths consider Freemasonry to be Satanically inspired in its entirety. Since I don't accept the existence of "Satan", I certainly don't accept that interpretation, either.
G.A.O.T.U. Do freemasons believe in God, or just a supreme being?Do you guys read the bible?Just wondering...;) Please igore bongsan G.A.T.O.U and please continue with your thread. It looks as if he is now banned anyway. Being brought up with a Catholic background, and having a mother who is one of those evangalistic Ministers, I have no insight into your religion, however, the secret hand shake would be like calling another Morman an Elder, would it not?
UT Originally posted by UltimateTrinity
Please igore bongsan G.A.T.O.U and please continue with your thread. It looks as if he is now banned anyway. Being brought up with a Catholic background, and having a mother who is one of those evangalistic Ministers, I have no insight into your religion, however, the secret hand shake would be like calling another Morman an Elder, would it not?
UT
UT, Freemasonry is not a religion. It has many religious aspects, like opening with prayer. There is always a Volume of Sacred Law open during lodge meetings.. However, the specific book (e.g. Bible, Koran, Torah, etc) may vary depending on the geography of the lodge.
Freemasonry is a Fraternity. Its members all profess a belief in Deity. One's specific beliefs need not be more defined than that. While the vast majority of Masons are Christian, one lodge I belong to has Jews, Moslems, Buddhists, Hindus, Taoists, Deists, and maybe a couple of other faiths. I have met other Masons who are Wiccan, Shinto, and maybe others, too.
Freemasonry's teachings are not dogmatic. They are simply symbolic, using the working tools of ancient operative stonemasons and the building of King Solomon's Temple as its main metaphor. These symols can then be used to go back to one's religious faith and see them from a different view point.
The "handshakes" and other "secrets" are simply means of identifying each other as Masons.
G.A.O.T.U. This is probably a stupid question, but...............
Since Freemasonry is not a religion, and includes as it's members people of all backgrounds and faiths, is it just more like a club than anything else? I know that's over-simplyfying it a bit, though.
And would you mind divulging on the Freemasonry teachings a bit? Of course I've heard of the group, but I've got no idea what the dogma actually is. How do you define a Freemason? (Not as is 'identify', but why would you be a member rather than simply stick to your original, basic religious beliefs? Sorry, not worded very well) Originally posted by Truth
This is probably a stupid question, but...............
Since Freemasonry is not a religion, and includes as it's members people of all backgrounds and faiths, is it just more like a club than anything else? I know that's over-simplyfying it a bit, though.
Freemasonry always works on a fraternal, moral and philoshophical level. Inasmuch as it is a fraternity, it is a "club".
Its teachings are moral and philosophical. See below.
And would you mind divulging on the Freemasonry teachings a bit? Of course I've heard of the group, but I've got no idea what the dogma actually is. How do you define a Freemason? (Not as is 'identify', but why would you be a member rather than simply stick to your original, basic religious beliefs? Sorry, not worded very well)
On a moral basis, it fosters the ideas of faith, hope and charity, otherwise worded as Brotherly Love, Relief and Truth.
There are a number of reasons that (predominantly) men join Freemasonry. For some, there is a strong family connection. For others, it is because of friends or co-workers.
Some are attracted by the charitable work. Masons in total give $2 million every day to charity.
Others enjoy the fraternal aspect. While there are lodges that admit women or a mix or men and women (these are very much a minority and are parts of jurisdicitions that are not considered "mainstream"), Freemasonry is mostly a men's organization. The abiltiy for men to gather in a private place and simply be among "like-minded" men is attractive to many of our members.
Keep in mind that I used the word private, not secret. Our lodges are private just like your home is private. I have no business being in your house unless you invite me in. If I am not invited, would that suggest that you are doing something "secret" and "wrong"? No, it just means it is not my business.
I tend to enjoy the philosophical elements most of all. I truly enjoy symbols and esoteric thought. This is one of the reasons I liked the Matrix movies, especially M2. I like the fact that the W's have been able to weave many of the traditional and ancient philosophical threads into their movies, even if they have been juiced up a bit for the contemporary person.
By and large Freemasonry is a throw-back, as well. Its pursuits of Wisdom, Stength and Beauty seem anachronistic in today's world. The study of the Seven Liberal Arts and Sciences (Grammar, Rhetoric, Logic, Arithmetic, Geometry, Music and Astronomy) seems equally out of date.
However, I would disagree. I think these enduring ideas and concepts have more to teach the "modern" person than most would admit. Concepts like honor and virtue are in very short supply nowadays. But they are popular. I think that was one of the reasons The Gladiato was so popular ("Strentgh and honor!"). I know I don't always live up to these ideas but they are there as an ideal.
One of the reasons that Freemasonry can be an important adjunct to religious faith is that it absolutely recognizes that there are duties we need to attend to in the "real" world. Freemasonry teaches nothing about "salvation" and how to reach "heaven". Its broadest religious concepts can be identified as:
-There is a Supreme Being/Intelligence or First Cause
-There is some form of existence after death
-We ought to take care of each other while we are here
None of its teachings are dogmatic, meaning that it is absolutely up to the individual to discern the meaning for himself and apply the ideas to his life as he understands them. There are certainly Masons who would not agree with my interpretation of the three main concepts I just outlined, but that is their interpretation to make. No Grand Master can force his opinions onto anyone.
There are few places in today's world away from it all where we can have these kind of philosophical discussions and meet each other as people rather than according to our profession, religious faith, etc. Lodges can be places where our members can explore these big questions.
I like the Matrix movies, as well as this forum, because they have caused some people to explore some of these same themes. The main difference is that in these internet forums, we are all pretend people hiding behind user names and avatars. That is the nature of modern society. Lodges are throw-backs to when people actually met each other face-to-face and got to know one another.
G.A.O.T.U. Originally posted by UltimateTrinity
Please igore bongsan G.A.T.O.U and please continue with your thread. It looks as if he is now banned anyway. Being brought up with a Catholic background, and having a mother who is one of those evangalistic Ministers, I have no insight into your religion, however, the secret hand shake would be like calling another Morman an Elder, would it not?
UT
bongsan says
that's really easy to get on someone that is banned and can't reply. look, i'm sorry if i offended anyone, that was a sarcastic comment.
being complete atheist , i do not understand belief in religion,dogma, or doctrines and i can't be shocked by any statement related to them.
i'd really apprecate you calrify some points:
aren't catholics beliefs incompatible with freemasonry?
do you accept the idea of jesus becoming christ after being flesh (negating him being god, -> any master manson can become god)
can you explain the first initation, like it has been divulgued by several lodges all over the world ?
do you accept the idea of a secret doctrine ?
Since i've been banned, i won't reply anymore (i accept the rules-but this had nothing to do with this topic).but i'd really appreciate you'd clarify these points for me. Originally posted by Jebulum for bongsan
i'd really apprecate you calrify some points:
aren't catholics beliefs incompatible with freemasonry?
Many Catholic leaders have written that Catholic beliefs are incompatible with Freemasonry. That is their interpretation to make. I know quite a number of Catholics who are Masons. And some of them are quite knowledgable in Catholic ideology as well as Freemasonry.
Cardinal Law, who recently resigned amid scandal in Boston, has written of the issues of Catholics and Freemasonry. I will point you to the following url for more information.
http://www.catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Homiletic/0809-96/11/11.html
do you accept the idea of jesus becoming christ after being flesh (negating him being god, -> any master manson can become god)
Freemasonry is silent on this subject. Freemasonry neither includes nor excludes Jesus. It neither includes nor excludes Mohammed, Buddha, Lao Tzu, Ahura Mazda, Zoroaster, Mithra, etc (not that this list is comprised of "gods").
It is primarily for this reason that strongly dogmatic Christian religions, in particular, condemn Freemasonry. Masonic lodges have Chaplains. They say a prayer at the beginning and the end of lodge meetings. It is inappropriate for him to include the name of any particular Deity. Instead, we use a generic term, the Supreme Architect of the Universe, or something like it (Grand Geometrician of the Universe, etc.).
It is inappropriate for the Chaplain to use such a specific name because to define one name is deny all others. Since our members are of many faiths, this would insult all others and interfere with the harmony of the lodge.
I am not a Christian in the sense that I believe that Jesus was "God". I think if more people followed what Jesus called the "greates commandment" rather than arguing over whether he is or isn't "god" that the world would be a much better place (see Matthew 22:34-40).
I am not sure I understand the second part of this question, the one contained in parentheses. Are you asking if Freemasonry teaches that we can become "god"? If that is your question, I would say "no" but I would also refer you to 1Corinthians 3:16 (Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?)
It is my interpretation that Masonic symbolism can be interpreted as indicating the Man is a unique being that can reconcile the Material with the Spiritual.
can you explain the first initation, like it has been divulgued by several lodges all over the world ?
You can read books about being in love. You can read poetry or watch romantic movies. But until you have been in love, you know nothing.
Masonic ritual is designed to be experienced. Similalry, even if you read the words of the rituals from Duncan's Ritual you will lack the frame of reference. Masonic ritual is a series of physical experiences (not hazing, mind you) that are designed to provide a deep and lasting impression that hopefully instills in the candidate an interest in investigating the various meanings of the degrees.
The initiatory experience is very much like Morpheus' admonishment to Neo to "wake up". We simply do it without the red pill. :)
do you accept the idea of a secret doctrine ?
Are you asking me if Freemasonry contains a theosophical element a la Madame Blavatsky? This is not an easy question and the answer is convoluted.
Do I think that there is a "secret" that has been passed down directly from the ancients through today and Freemasonry has been one of the stewards of that "secret"? No, I don't.
However, I am a big picture person. I tend to look for patterns and trends. I investigate the detail enough to see how things fit into that pattern and then I tend to dwell on the big picture piece again.
No one knows exactly where Masonic ritual came from. It may have come from some ancient lineage, or it was written de novo somewhere in the 1500's or 1600's. If it was newly written in this more modern period, chances are that the author(s) reached back in time to find many ideas and put them together in a fairly coherent system of philosophy.
So for me, after you peel away the dogmatic elements of philosophies and religions, you end up with most traditions saying pretty much the same thing. To me, that fundamental meaning is embodied in the following symbol:
http://www.mastersjewel.com/tattoo/drew/tattoo.jpg
This picture is not directly a Masonic symbol. To make it an actual Masonic symbol, you have to strip off the numbers and text. The underlying symbol is the 47th Problem of Euclid, otherwise known as the Pythagorean Theorum It is, to me, the quintessential Masonic symbol and, to me, contains all of its lessons.
G.A.O.T.U. that was really interesting. :)
thus i would recommend to anyone interested in the subject to read more about the interpretations about freemasonry, since you don't want to talk about the enlightement, "christ state", or whatever you call that and the definite conflict with views of the catholic church.(but that is a sensible subject on which i know you are not allowed to discuss, so i fully respect your decision)
btw,i don't believe in any religion but that doesn't mean i'm not interested by the subject, i wonder how shintoism could have fit into that.
thanx again, that was really my read of the day. that was really interesting. :)
thus i would recommend to anyone interested in the subject to read more about the interpretations from massonics, since you don't want to talk about the enlightement, "christ state", or whatever you call that and the definte conflict with views of the catholic church.
btw,i don't believe in any religion but that doesn't mean i'm not interested by the subject, i wonder how shintoism could have fit into that.
thanx again, that was really my read of the day. lllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
I am speaking in barcode
lllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllll lllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll Originally posted by bongsan
i think Freemasonry is unknow to most users, so you won't get a lot of replies.
i've seen interesting reports and TV documentaries about that while i was in France, especially stuff relating to the initiation, in the grand orient, you stay in a room with a skull, some texts,paints for ages, that looked really creepy.
there wouldn't be that much troubles with people claiming the conspiracy if they were allowed to see the audits and the reunions.
i bet they're all watching porn in front of a giant screen and laughing at people trying to know what's inside.
quote:
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Originally posted by UltimateTrinity
Please igore bongsan G.A.T.O.U and please continue with your thread. It looks as if he is now banned anyway. Being brought up with a Catholic background, and having a mother who is one of those evangalistic Ministers, I have no insight into your religion, however, the secret hand shake would be like calling another Morman an Elder, would it not?
UT
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quote:
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bongsan says
that's really easy to get on someone that is banned and can't reply. look, i'm sorry if i offended anyone, that was a sarcastic comment.
being complete atheist , i do not understand belief in religion,dogma, or doctrines and i can't be shocked by any statement related to them.
i'd really apprecate you calrify some points:
aren't catholics beliefs incompatible with freemasonry?
do you accept the idea of jesus becoming christ after being flesh (negating him being god, -> any master manson can become god)
can you explain the first initation, like it has been divulgued by several lodges all over the world ?
do you accept the idea of a secret doctrine ?
Since i've been banned, i won't reply anymore (i accept the rules-but this had nothing to do with this topic).but i'd really appreciate you'd clarify these points for me.
I don't care Jebulum if they are banned or not. I am indifferent to it because they re-incarnate on here like anyones bussiness.
Please quote me in context next time
UT i think Freemasonry is unknow to most users, so you won't get a lot of replies.
Fact.
i've seen interesting reports and TV documentaries about that while i was in France, especially stuff relating to the initiation, in the grand orient, you stay in a room with a skull, some texts,paints for ages, that looked really creepy.
Fact. This is one the the rituals during the initiation of a manson at the grand orient of france that has been coreved during a TV report they allowed.
there wouldn't be that much troubles with people claiming the conspiracy if they were allowed to see the audits and the reunions.
er, Fact.
i bet they're all watching porn in front of a giant screen and laughing at people trying to know what's inside.
i'm sorry, i couldn't resist imagining guys spending their life in the search of a lost word spending their time in from of a porn and eating pop-corn. don't you see the duality ?
maybe if you don't get me you will be interested by what Andrew Steinmetz has to say on the subject
The Secret Doctrine, being the real secret of Freemasonry, is not divulged even to the candidate. There is no machinery set up in the ritual fters contained therein through their use, simulatioor the purpose, and the Secret Doctrine itself is not even acknowledged to exist . . . Officially, the ritual is 'all that there is.' and no Grand Lodge will go beyond that fact and attempt to define the teachings of Masonry, nor will any Grand Lodge (to my knowledge) admit the existence of the Secret Doctrine which is so openly discussed and written about by Masonic students and authorities on Masonic symbolism
by definition, only parts allowed to be discussed by freemassonry will be discussed by GAOTU, which limits clearly the freedom of speach and nihilate the basis of a dialogue a la question/reply.
on which i go back to that statement:
there wouldn't be that much troubles with people claiming the conspiracy if they were allowed to see the audits and the reunions.
i'm happy GAOTU replied because i've asked myself these questions about freemasony for ages, and never found anybody to reply to that.i already know what the sceptics say, i'm happy to finally get the views from someone inside, so i can mix up both versions and get the replies i am looking for.
posted by GAOTU:
Are you asking me if Freemasonry contains a theosophical element a la Madame Blavatsky? This is not an easy question and the answer is convoluted.
Do I think that there is a "secret" that has been passed down directly from the ancients through today and Freemasonry has been one of the stewards of that "secret"? No, I don't.
this is playing on words.:)
and i won't quote you anymore because i won't post anymore.
sorry for my bad english,not my native tongue. Jebulum/bongsan. Please don't make yourself a matre on this thread by vowing not to post anymore. It just spoils the integrety for the origional thread starter for it to be thrown off topic by matrdom.
For your spelling, I would not have known you weren't first language english, and for quoting me on bad spelling all you had done was take 2 quotes and pasted them together.
Your decision not to post is solely up to you.
Now, thank you for setting me straight G.A.O.T.U. on it being a frat and not a religion. I think its wonderful how all denominations can come together to join as one lodge. I also read the articles that you have linked to your thread and found it most enjoyable reading.
thanks
love UT Thankyou G.A.O.T.U.
I also had many questions about Freemasonry but no-one to ask! I have found this thread to be very enlightening, and I read your links with interest. Thankyou for answering so many of our questions with honesty and openness, it's been a very enjoyable read! Jebulum/bongsan. Please don't make yourself a matre on this thread by vowing not to post anymore. It just spoils the integrety for the origional thread starter for it to be thrown off topic by matrdom.
i didn't intend to, sorry,didn't feel like posting a new topic on why i've been banned, and create more spam that nobody cares about,.this has nothing to do with the thread, i've been banned, and although i can easily get over that, i accept the consequences, so will not post. nobody can stop me from reading anyway.
btw, i'm just posting because i had some other questions.
from what i read, older traces of freemassonry go back to the 15th century. do you accept that ?
you accept people believing in any religions.
how could a civilisation with complete different beliefs then the religions from nowadays (which i agree, really are lookalikes), a la incas, egyptians, roman gods, japanese tribes before the conquest by china, fit into that shema. ?
have you read the gospel of jesus, and what's your views on the position of the catholic church on it ?
why does girls can't access some lodges, what about their salvation ?
i guess you don't accept that intererpretation fo the third degree ?
"In the third degree the candidate impersonates Hiram, who has been shown to be identical with the Christos of the Greeks, and with the Sun-Gods of all other nations. The superiority of Masonry at this point over all exoteric Religions consists in this: All these religions take the symbol for the thing symbolized. Christ was originally like the father. Now He is made identical with the Father. In deifying Jesus the whole of humanity is bereft of Christos as an eternal potency within every human soul, a latent Christ in every man. In thus deifying one man, they have orphaned the whole of humanity! On the other hand, Masonry, in making every candidate personify Hiram, has preserved the original teaching, which is a universal glyphic. Few candidates may be aware that Hiram whom they have represented and personified is ideally, and precisely the same as Christ. Yet such is undoubtedly the case. This old philosophy shows what Christ as a glyphic means, and how the Christ-state results from real Initiation, or from the evolution of the human into the Divine. pages Actually Jebulum, reading the quality of your posts it would be a great shame if you discontinued posting. But that's just my opinion.
This quote answered a heck of alot of questions I had about the lodge.
"Freemasonry's teachings are not dogmatic. They are simply symbolic, using the working tools of ancient operative stonemasons and the building of King Solomon's Temple as its main metaphor. These symols can then be used to go back to one's religious faith and see them from a different view point. "
Fasinating, how when you look at it, diverse cultures can unite and use one piece of symbolism to unite.
UT Originally posted by Jebulum
i think Freemasonry is unknow to most users, so you won't get a lot of replies.
Fact.
i've seen interesting reports and TV documentaries about that while i was in France, especially stuff relating to the initiation, in the grand orient, you stay in a room with a skull, some texts,paints for ages, that looked really creepy.
Fact. This is one the the rituals during the initiation of a manson at the grand orient of france that has been coreved during a TV report they allowed.
This is indeed how the Grand Orient of France operates. This is called the Chamber of Reflection. In some obediences, the candidate may remain in the chamber for over 4 hours. While in there, he is expected to write a will.
THe candidate is confronted by these symbols of mortality and by the fact that he is alone in a candle-lit room. It can cause a level of contemplation that he has never experienced before.
there wouldn't be that much troubles with people claiming the conspiracy if they were allowed to see the audits and the reunions.
Freemasonry will always suffer from this. It is simply the nature of the organiztion. I wouldn't change it if I could.
Let me ask how many meetings of the pope and cardinals have you been invited to in the Vatican? Does that make them a "secret scoeity" or does it mean that their private meetings are none of your business.
er, Fact.
i bet they're all watching porn in front of a giant screen and laughing at people trying to know what's inside.
i'm sorry, i couldn't resist imagining guys spending their life in the search of a lost word spending their time in from of a porn and eating pop-corn. don't you see the duality ?
My wife swears that we sit around in our aprons and very little else. :)
Since my wife has met the guys in my lodge, that is a more frightening thought than it first appears.
maybe if you don't get me you will be interested by what Andrew Steinmetz has to say on the subject
The Secret Doctrine, being the real secret of Freemasonry, is not divulged even to the candidate. There is no machinery set up in the ritual fters contained therein through their use, simulatioor the purpose, and the Secret Doctrine itself is not even acknowledged to exist . . . Officially, the ritual is 'all that there is.' and no Grand Lodge will go beyond that fact and attempt to define the teachings of Masonry, nor will any Grand Lodge (to my knowledge) admit the existence of the Secret Doctrine which is so openly discussed and written about by Masonic students and authorities on Masonic symbolism
The "secrets" cannot be communicated because of the nature of those "secrets". Part of this is also the nature of symbolic education. The Grand Master simply can't tell me what to think when I view the symbols.
For instance, what do you think this means?
http://www.ams.org/new-in-math/cover/images/geometry-glossary10.jpg
by definition, only parts allowed to be discussed by freemassonry will be discussed by GAOTU, which limits clearly the freedom of speach and nihilate the basis of a dialogue a la question/reply.
Actually the biggest constraint this discussion has is that I have a completely different set of filters by which to view the world than you have. Therefore, what I think of when I see a 5-pointed star, especially one with a pentagon in the middle of it, may be very different than you.
For instance, some will look at the 5-pointed star an think "inverted pentagram". Others who may be familiar with the symolism of numbers would recognize that a geometric representation of 5 refers to Man. The fact that the main point is directed downwards indicates the Material. But within this larger shape is contained a pentagon, another geometric representation of 5 and therefore Man. This time, however, the main point is directed vertically suggesting the Spiritual.
So, one could view this symbol as indicating that within each of us in our mundane materialistic nature is a dormant capacity to yearn for, and perhaps even experience connection to Deity.
To me, this is very similar to the fundamental meaning of a cross. The "fifth" point is the intersection of the vertical and horizontal lines.
These are my thoughts on the subject. Your mileage may vary.
I will give you my interpretation of all of the secrets in Freemasonry, including the "secret doctrine":
3, 4, 5
If you want to know more then investigate the triangle and square graphic I posted earlier in this thread. To me, it contains everything in Freemasonry. To others, it is a near geometric theorum.
i'm happy GAOTU replied because i've asked myself these questions about freemasony for ages, and never found anybody to reply to that.i already know what the sceptics say, i'm happy to finally get the views from someone inside, so i can mix up both versions and get the replies i am looking for.
Well, clearly my responses are biased positively towards Freemasonry as I have been one for nearly a decade and a half. Add to that the nature of our discussion, its anonymity, etc. But I have done the best I can.
There is an awful lot of crap out on the internet on any subject. Freemasonry seems to hold a special place in the hearts of loonies, fundamentalists and just about anyone who needs to blame someone else for their lot in life.
Freemasonry easily falls into this trap because it is easy to declare "Masons hold secrets, so everything they tell us is a lie." If that were true, what would keep the Grand Orient of France from filming a re-enactment of an initiation that had nothing to do with what they really do?
See? It just goes round and round.
Even better, the critics will simply respond that since the Mason they are talking with doesn't have the "highest" degree (whatever that means) then they don't know what is really going on. How do you get around that? You can't. And that just gives them more support for their twisted view.
G.A.O.T.U. well, thanx again.
i didn't mean you were biased. i know you try your best in what you could/wanted to say, and as stated above i fully respect it.i appreciate your clear replies in the topc.
i consider any written information being untruthful in its essence, influenced, by its language (evolution and interpretation), by the society/world around it, the level of technology and culture, the education/evolution/history of the writers. all i can do is get as much informations as i can in subjects that interest me, i'm not looking for any 'truth' ,only my interpretation of what the hell that could be.
i certainly do not believe any info on the net :)
i really like your explanations about the drawing. that was fascinating. Iam wiccan and this seems very interesting for me in wiccan the star means
top to left: spirit, earth, fire ,water and wind. i was also wondering if you had a website i could check out? that also works with zen bouddishm, shinto after the conquest of china.
even Feng Shui, or wahtever is called that sect in china at the moment. In the cycle, water produces wood, which produces fire, which produces earth, which produces metal which produces water. 5 elements. the circles are showing the cycle.the pentogram is either attribuated to 'good', or 'evil' following your sources.
the fact it is reversed, i do not know.maybe you are a devilish organisation. :)
i'm not sure how the 40000 good and 40000 evil kamis from shinto would have fet in that picture.i do understand better however how easy it is to recognize signs from any religion in freemassonry without evoquing it, thanx. Originally posted by Renewed_Neo
Iam wiccan and this seems very interesting for me in wiccan the star means top to left: spirit, earth, fire ,water and wind. i was also wondering if you had a website i could check out?
Here is a URL from a website project of mine:
http://www.geocities.com/zenmasonry
About half of the material are traditional koans re-worked to fit Masonic themes. The other half were written by us. We have made no distinction between the two.
Here is an example:
Inside
One day Adoniram came upon Grand Master Hiram Abif sitting in prayer outside the unfinished Sanctum Sanctorum of the Temple. Adoniram saw him and asked, "Master, why don't you go inside?"
Hiram replied, "I do not see myself as outside."
G.A.O.T.U. i once read that the people at the highest levels of freemasonary (i don't exactly remember their group name since this was from a few years ago) worship satan, to a large degree, as well as make human and animal sacrafices.
i don't know if there is any truth in that but at the time it seemed believable. two questions?
one is if someone was to be invited and joined but then after consideration want to be withdrawn from the lodge is that possible even after they have been sworn in, and if so is there a penalty for the withdraw?
second is what is the connection with freemasonary and the united states government? i have seen in government (from county, state to federal) buildings freemasonary symbols and geometric signs. is there a meaning behind it and why there? Originally posted by Luc
i once read that the people at the highest levels of freemasonary (i don't exactly remember their group name since this was from a few years ago) worship satan, to a large degree, as well as make human and animal sacrafices.
i don't know if there is any truth in that but at the time it seemed believable.
There are a number of evangelical organizations that effectively state that if you do not believe exactly like they believe that you are worshipping "satan".
They also tend to take a particular Masonic author, Albert Pike, out of context. Sometimes they even change his text to fit their needs. Even if they do use his exact words, they simply do not understand them.
The human and animal sacrifice issues often arise in Africa where many still believe in witchcraft. There have been recent events where disease has occured in a local village only to be blamed on "witches" in the community.
Here is a good website that talks about some "higher" and honorary degrees:
http://www.masoniclight.org/degrees.html
http://www.masoniclight.org/honorary.html
G.A.O.T.U. Originally posted by ae2198
two questions?
one is if someone was to be invited and joined but then after consideration want to be withdrawn from the lodge is that possible even after they have been sworn in, and if so is there a penalty for the withdraw?
People are not directly invited to join. One must ask. That is not to say that a Mason can't discuss Masonry with another, but to hand him a petition and say, "You should do this" is kind of crossing a line. It is important that a person joins of their own free will and accord (similar to Neo having to make so many choices "I can open the door, but you have to walk in "- Morpheus)
If one joins a lodge, you can leave anytime you want through two methods. 1) stop paying your dues and you will be kicked out after two years. 2) Pay all your bills to the lodge and ask for a "demit". A demit is a letter that says you were made a Mason, have paid everything up to the lodge but have chosen to remove yourself from its membership.
second is what is the connection with freemasonary and the united states government? i have seen in government (from county, state to federal) buildings freemasonary symbols and geometric signs. is there a meaning behind it and why there?
When the US government was created, there were very few, if any institutions upon which to draw ideas and precedents. Masonic lodges had been democratic institutions for as many as two or more centuries before 1775.
Lodges elected its memebers, elected their officers, had Grand Lodge bodies to which to send representatives, created their own charters and bylaws, etc. It was a readily available example of how a democratic system could work.
The Masonic lodge was not fully lifted as the model for the US government, but many ideas carried over.
Also, it is important to note that less than a majority of those involved in the first Continental Congress were Masons.
Masons have always been interested in being active citizens. One Masonic tradition is the laying of the cornerstone for a public building. You will see many such cornerstones around the country and particularly in Washington DC where I work.
Freemasonry has always been interested in a free and educated people. In one way, the cornerstones are a reminder to the government that they are there to represent "the people".
G.A.O.T.U. have you ever encountered any harrassment or menacing act towards people who remove themselves from the lodge?
i used to work with a guy that was mason and i would say that he was satanic because of it. also about his secret handshakes. he then invited me to his lodge so i can see first hand what it's like. i was really just pulling his tail about the satanic cult. i'm interested now in joining a masonic lodge but he is on duty. he is an army reserve. i want to get as much information as i can so i can make a decision.
thanks for the info gaotu i also wanted to ask you from your knowledge, what is the connection with the Illuminati and Freemasonary? being a mason, i'm sure you've heard of the Illuminati and the relationships between the two. is there anything you can tell me about that?
thanks ; ) i'm sorry if i may have offended you in any way. i just want you to answer the question so i can get a better understanding. in my own opinion i think it's legitimate question. thanks for your time. Originally posted by ae2198
i'm sorry if i may have offended you in any way. i just want you to answer the question so i can get a better understanding. in my own opinion i think it's legitimate question. thanks for your time.
I am not offended. I responded to your post a few days ago and somehow it didn't make it to the board. Some Illuminati agents must have diverted it. ;)
There are all sorts of theories around this alleged connection between Freemasonry and "the Illuminati". The ultimate theory is that George Washington was actually Adam Weishaupt.
Think about this for a moment. Many think that the US was a goal set up by Rosicrucian/Illuminati/Masonic forces. If this were true and also if Weishaupt had somehow inserted himself as Washington, why on God's green earth would Weishaupt/Washington voluntarily abandon his position as President of the US after only two terms? This action was not called for by the US Constitution at that time. It wasn't until the mid 20th century almost 200 years later that Presidential term limits were set.
Also, why would the Illuminati/Rosicrucian/Masonic forces allow his successor to be an ardent anti-Mason? John Adams was a frequently outspoken opponent of Freemasonry. When Adams accompanied Franklin to France, Adams was left to his own devices while Franklin hung out with his Masonic friends (Lafayette, Voltaire, etc.). Adams was not part of the "in" crowd.
Jefferson was not a Mason either. There is some discussion that he may have been made a Mason in France, like Franklin was, but there has been no formal proof of that. The Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania has a document placing him in a lodge room but that is as far as the evidence goes.
President #4 was John Quincy Adams, John Adams' son and also a non-Mason.
So again, if there was some form of Illuminati/Rosicrucian/Masonic force at work here in the US, how could it get so powerful and at the very peak of its power relinquish it to non-Masons? These things just don't fit together.
There are other ideas that there are really two Freemasonries. One is the fraternal/charitable/philosophical organization that is certainly not a secret society. In the US, public buildings have cornerstones that are marked with the Square and Compasses and placed in very public ceremonies by Masonic Grand Lodge officers who make no attempt to hide who they are. Masonic lodge buildings are clearly marked in the US. One building here in DC just had a 20' symbol placed on the side of its building. It is not very attractive, but it certainly is visible.
One of the tallest buildings in the Metro DC area is the George Washington National Masonic Memorial. It sits atop Shooter's Hill in Alexandria VA. It is the tallest structure in the area and has a 50' Square and Compasses on its lawn. Pretty darn obvious if you ask me.
http://www.gwmemorial.org/images/memorial100.jpg
The other Freemasonry is the one described by evangelical Christians and other fundamentalist organizations as well as David Icke and his followers. They claim that Freemasonry is a global conspiracy or a Satan-worshipping organization.
If you were to start an organization of Satan-worshipping, globally inspired power mongers, would you build up your army by recruiting "good men" interested in fraternal good will, charity and philosophy in an effort to "make good men better"? That would be an odd way to do it. But the anti-Masons only think that is more proof?!?!?
Check out the book "Is it True What They Say about Masonry". It may also provide some answers:
http://www.srmason-sj.org/web/SRpublications/DeHoyos.htm
I would also point you to Umberto Eco's "Foucault's Pendulum" and Robert Anton Wilson's "Illuminati" trilogy. Heck, grab the "Principia Discordia" while you are at it. Free your mind indeed.
http://www.eriswerks.org
http://users.ev1.net/~darkfox/images/chao.gif
Seems offtopic? Not really...
G.A.O.T.U. Hello all,
I don't know how I stumbled onto this thread but I find it very interesting reading.
At this time, I woul like to comment on the question of whether a Satanist can be a Freemason.
My short answer to this is: NO
My long answer is: Not if he is truthful during the interview process or before his initiation. This is because he would have to answer ALL of the following questions in the affirmative and it just doesn't work for a Satanist.
1. Do you believe in a Supreme Being? A Satanist could answer YES
2. Do you believe that he has made his will known to man? A Satanist may answer yes to this question as well.
3. Do you believe that the Supreme Being punishes VICE and rewards VIRTUE? This would be a definate NO for a Satanist and he would, therefore, be ineligible to join.
Thanks for letting me get my two cents worth in. :)
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