Matrix Applied Here

PERHAPS :)


think about it. in the movie people use the computer to find a common theme in their lives and unite... like here, we are all talking, mostly about the movie, but some of us join in forums of belief, philosophy, how our system is a prison we cant see, and the ways we can change it. thats the one good thing computers are doing, making it easy to connect with people and share information and posibly change things if enought of us come together. thats why the gov't is craccing down on emails and chatrooms, supposidly because of terroroist. i think that the machines(govt) are just invading our privacy so that we dont unite and free ourselves. just a revalation i just had.

Hi!

The net, as a mass communication device, will be considered good or bad depending on who use it and who controls it.

The net is use for globalization of capitalist interest, but, at the same time, it is being use to promote freedom ideals, which is globalization of our struggle.

exactly. of course i have always been one who believed if something you intend to create can potencially be used to harm someone or backfire, even though it had good applications as well, dont create it cuz it will backfire eventually. but since the internet excists, lets connect and do what we have to do.

mmm....
Maybe you have a point, but it isn't what the Wachowskis want to show us!

is your last name wachowski??? o, didnt think so lol.

what exactly does the wachowskis "trying to show us" something have to do with how we interpret it? as long as our motives are for a positive cause, i think the wachowskis will be satisfied.

Originally posted by texabara
Hi!

The net, as a mass communication device, will be considered good or bad depending on who use it and who controls it.

The net is use for globalization of capitalist interest, but, at the same time, it is being use to promote freedom ideals, which is globalization of our struggle.

Anything that is a powerful tool is potenially dangerous.


UT

Something to add maybe.................

I just read something today about the origin of the word 'robot'.

Taken from an essay by Robert Sawyer 'Artificial Intelligence, Science Fiction, and the Matrix':

"Indeed, the word 'robot' was coined in a work of science fiction: when the Czech writer Karel Capek was writing his 1920 play 'RUR', he needed a name for mechanical labourers, and so he took the Czech work 'robota' and shortened it to 'robot'. Robota refers to an obligation to a landlord that can only be repaid by forced physical labour. But Capek knew well that the real flesh-and-blood 'robotniks' had rebelled against their landlords in 1848. From the very beginning, the relationship between humans and robots was seen as one that might lead to conflict."

Just a thought.

interesting.....

well we definitely put our lives in their hands in the 21st century.

hey sight...no need to be so angry at the government. i believe that they feel, and quite truly so, that the damage of a few terrorist's mails will utterly overbalance all the good the other kinds of mail can accomplish...man cannot be trusted to be responsible with everything even if the blatant truth is in front of them so rather then let us destroy ourselves they had to impose some form of control for the greater good...sure creativity is stifled here n there but better some temporarily stifled creativity then the creator killed in a bomb blast...

i disagree with you MacL. first, i believe our gov't aids terrorism behind closed doors and say they fight it to the public. deep down i even feel that they had something to do with 911. there has been a goal from the beginning of total world domination. many have tried it. youd be a fool to think that persuit is over. a large part of the new world order is to control the mases more, which would mean to make the masses give up their rights. how do you do that, make tha masses think there is no other way, ie. terrorists use email, so we have to track your emails, cell phones, phones, two ways, etc. now they listen to eveything because they have scared the masses to believe its better that then blow up. i aint buying it tho. ive had a video called the capitalists consperacy since i was like 15. it has a theory they discuss called pressure from above pressure from below. basically, make it seem that if the masses do not give up their rights, then chaos will occure. and being that nowadays, especially in the u.s., people are sissies and only want to go to work at their meaningless job, come home to a house with a white picket fence and have dinner and watch tv, they see chaos or war as taking away their confort zone, thus they would give up privacy rights, be subject to curfews, etc. just to feel comfortable. i will fight it. if we are to go in a bombing, that is the way it was going to happen from the beginning. i wont live in fear, nor will i live under serveilance(sp). i fear no one. big brother can kiss my @$$

Er...that's quite a strong stand Sight. can't say anything because i dun come from your area but i do feel that after working wif my government's army there's a genuine sense of hardworking people with no grandiose dreams of control. everybody even in the government is human-is there a real need for some big bro thing? nobody in his power-hungry mind would want to have so damn much control-heck the government guys also want to have peaceful lives. i can bet they go home everyday to their white-picket-fence homes jus like the rest and sigh with a little happiness that everyone else has the luxury to have those boring old houses instead of bomb shelters.
sure we've been said to be a country strangled by tight rules and controls but is that so bad? we're the only country to have a ban on gum-it sure hurt for me for sometime but the effect is good:no jams on public train doors, no unslightly scabs on the floor, no horribly sinking feeling when i slip my hand under a seat to shift it...is my government insecure enough to implement such control jus to see us obey? i'm sure they appreciate the benefits as much as us.
governments set rules sure and they set a minority apart sometimes...that's unfortunate. but to feel they(or maybe american govts) want to exert control jus because they feel like it to the point of knowing when we go to the loo...well its a little too paranoid for me...i recommend trying to know a few people who work for it or taking an active role in government-held events...not jus the bad ones. it'd help humanize it a little i guess...

i think you pose a very good point Macleod. most gov't workers do have everyday normal lives. BUT, that small amount of those that actually live their lives incognito, that never living the so-called "normal life," those are the ones that we need to be cautious of because they pose the most threat to human society. the decision makers. when i think about this, coming home to my white picket fence and feeling satisfied that my gov't is protecting me doesn't bring me any comfort. these men that no one knows about love control. they must in order to have a job like the ones they have.

lemme ask you this. do you think that the president is really the one man making all the decisions? of course not. if that were the case then this wouldn't even be a democracy but a dictatorship. there are people that are above him, that no one knows of that do the real decision making. sort of like a "men in black" type of deal. there is so much we dont know because the gov't doesnt tell us. now how can you feel comfortable knowing that?

Control, thats what this countries gov't thrives on. personally, i hate it, but who am i but a voice in the wind. we're all trapped in this "matrix" of control and unless everyone starts to voice their opinions more and more, its just gonna get worse.

I may feel safe here, but i'd rather feel free. the picket fence isnt that important to me, but my own life is.

er...ok so there's more than one who feels that way. your government sure has a lotta skeletons in its closet but are the stories really like they say? area 51 n all that? hmm...
but about the people above the president-sure there are. and there will be people above those too. and above those? The People themselves. that's what i've been taught to believe your democratic government works on. ah well i know nuts about your politics in the end n it might be better leaving it that way...dun want anyone sending hitmen against us...:p

matrix warrior hit it on the nose. there are several major families that basically owned america. their business is america, and they have the politicians in their pockets. they would kill you in the blink of an eye if you attempted to expose them or change their system.

if you ever saw devil's advocate, ironically with keonu reeves in it, the devil (played by al pacino) says how man is connected everywhere by phone lines, television, electiricity, cell phones, two ways and how easy it is for him to "do his work". think about it. they want to know everything, because that is how you control. duh.

In history, the only society without law was a pirate island. They collapse quickly.

Goverment, a.k.a. Matrix (hahaha) is a section of our society who control our political officiality, and our official economical lives.

The matrix ,a.k.a the gov., have the technology to survey almost everything. But, neither of them (matrix or gov.) have the capacity to manage the huge amount of information that we, the people, produce. Thats why they have to be selective.

The trick is how to bypass their selection process so they don´t put their eyes and ears on you?

(I will continue later :) )

they will know your name if you stand to make a change. no way around it tex. but ill wait to hear what you have to say about it "later" with interest....

Originally posted by SIGHT
PERHAPS :)


think about it. in the movie people use the computer to find a common theme in their lives and unite... like here, we are all talking, mostly about the movie, but some of us join in forums of belief, philosophy, how our system is a prison we cant see, and the ways we can change it. thats the one good thing computers are doing, making it easy to connect with people and share information and posibly change things if enought of us come together. thats why the gov't is craccing down on emails and chatrooms, supposidly because of terroroist. i think that the machines(govt) are just invading our privacy so that we dont unite and free ourselves. just a revalation i just had.

Wow! Nice theory! And remember that Morpheus was described as a "Terrorist" in M1 by Smith!

i forgot that they call morpheus a terrorist. way to bring that up.

exactly!!!! great point!!!!!

they called him a terrorist when he was one of the best gifts humanity could hope for. you could see why i wasnt one to believe the hype about iraq. ive never personaly been there, have never personally spoken to an iraqian who said sadam slaughters his people, uses biological weapons, etc. our govt to this day hasnt proven anything. but 90% of america believe them and back a war. just using that as an example, but with anyone who stands to change things, whats the first thing the gov't will try to do, make you out to look bad so you lose credibility. period. wheather it be a set up or dig up the one stupid thing you did in your life. and they have the media at their disposal to do so.

But Sight u gotta know that not every gifted person or saviour in for humanity is a disruptive influence or terrorist or even pariah...I was struck by that thought in animatrix's "The boy"...Popper was also the odd one out, the "black sheep" but he turned out to be "Gifted"...does that mean that eveyone who stands out from society is gifted? I believe that society is merely something that the majority in it agrees on. If everyone was like Popper and you were still you you'd be the odd one out and all...would u be called a saviour of mankind? The government is there to serve the majority. Morpheus was going to save mankind but seriously after observing all he did u can't blame governments for calling him a terrorist-its a human given name not an agent given one. He's killed, carjacked, perhaps more...the reasons were good but the means pretty harmful. If applied to real life would your point be true? The people themselves would be screaming at the government to arrest him for his "crimes against humanity"...and would u call Osama a saviour?.
..The good and bad of a government has to be clearly recognised-they exist for the reasons that make them good and they constantly change because of the reasons that make them bad...I know they do. Give em' a chance...

And about making lose credibility if u opposed them...well that's what I'd do too...like what we all do here in this forum in a nicer way....a government cannot make any decisions if the people they depend on are torn on the decisions so they'll do what they can to tip the balance...its a naturally human thing. Ultimately its our own failing if we believe them!

MacLeod,

its all about intentions. to free mankind morph is willing to kill the ones who get in the way. just like the agents are willing to kill the ones who get in the way of thier cause. if the ends justify the means is in the eye of the beholder, as with anything else. i would really like to sit down with osama and talk with him, see where he is coming from. i bet he has some serious knowledge on life, survival and things our govt would never want us to know. not every "outcast" is out to save the world. but every person out to save the world would be made an outcast. think about that. as for the last part, about credibility, well then my friend, you are part of the problem. only a snake would do such a thing. one who seels righteousness would not. i would not. ill leave you with a quote from a song i like by aceyolone called the balance:

"the orthodox is the unorthodox, they just got you on a name
the insane and the sane are the same..."

...A snake u say?
I dun get it. Look all you've said went a long way to making me less credible, didn't u? U challenged my views because yours were different...now who's part of the problem? People do what they do because they have the power-its human and we can't fault them...too much. If u had a certain amount of power you'd use it and ignore what others said...its the only way we can do anything. If u knew your words for example wounded me and scarred me for the rest of my life and made me very sensitive with government issues you would still've gone on to say what u say right? Because you can, and you think you're right. That's what governments do, because they have to.
I seriously do not think your government is rejoicing in the amount of people they have killed in Iraq for example, the anger they have drawn from the rest of the world, the troops still dying there...they felt a hard choice had to be made for the good of their people and though it sucked they still went on and did it. Speaking like this about their efforts wounds them, jus like us being teenagers wounded our parents against their good intentions.
Therein lies the problem you described. Intentions are everything to you? If Morpheus was willing to kill to do what he believed in the government would then be willing to control (to a certain degree) to ensure better lives for their people. There's no right or wrong here, merely the sheer amount of lives and suffering wasted. Governments aren't perfect yes, but dun get the impression they're evil, if that's what u seem to have.
Lastly about not seeing righteousness when it is there-how do we know it is there? It's all about opinions and end results. If Hitler won we'd be a Nazi world hailing him as the grand uniter or blah...if Jesus didn't perform his miracles at the right times or persuaded the right people we would've believed he was jus a heretic who deserved his death, or if Mao didn't lead China into economic difficulties he and Communism would've been hailed as the successes they were meant to become...Osama is regarded evil to some and a hero to others. Intentions mean nothing in light of actions, sad to say. My one view in light of such sad "Victor writes history" truths is:the side who seeks the least carnage or at least deeply regrets it is the only true one.
It's interesting...I believe if u start a family (of course I ain't exactly saying from experience) you'd get a feeling of what the government feels doing what it does. It's not an easy job and sure they get flak...but please try not to hate them entirely...we do need them; jus like machines...

In Rome, were the Emeperor was God, he was the political, religious and economical power, all centered in his person. But the emperor, as powerful as he was, need a great degree of organizational structures to rule such a huge empire.

Thats why today law is fundamentally based and rooted on roman law.

But, at the same time, the structure of the roman empire, the goverment, has cracks and opennings. It has weaknesses. So the emperor was always conspirating against those who were conspirating against him. He, and all his structure, were creating actions and manipulating things so the empire ensure its power.

That is the same thing todays goverment do. Thats why we call them Imperialist States.

When United States invades Puerto Rico, General Miles have instructions to create disruption between puertorrican political parties, so none could prevail. Divide and conquer!

Do you think that the Panama invasion was to capture Noriega? The CIA create Noriega as a excuse to maintain the Panama Canal (or channel, that water pass from the Caribbean sea to the Pacific Ocean in Panama). Why? The US want to control that pass for military purposes. They say they invade Panama to capture a great drug dealer, Noriega, but in the process US Marine corps were killing the Panama soldier who were guarding the channel, and US soldier were killing panama civilians who oppose US control over Panama.

Now US needs control over the middle east. So they help to create Osama Bin Laden. I think that Osama, like Noriega, were creations, but they act on their own using what US goverment gives them. I don't think (or wanted to think) that US gov. was capable of ordering the destruction of the Twin Towers. Osama was meant to be a menace, only that, but he act and attack. He was not a puppet. So US goverment loose control over him.

The same happened in Peru. US put a dictatorship there, but that dictator nationalize the corporations. So the US have to take him down too!

US create things to control, but not always their plans came out perfect! hahahahaha!

So when Osama attack some military bases, it was still good for the purposes, even attacks on embassys. But when he tryies for the Twins the first time, he became a real thread! Then he made it!

Now the US have the excuse to enter the middle east. He attacks Afganistan. Then it attack Iraq. Then what?

Don't look at goverment by looking at the people as individuals. Goverment is a social structure. Goverment was meant to be a control device. So if you start to work on goverment, and you can make public policy decisions, then you will act as goverment.

Inside capitalism, even the more good intended polititian knows that to keep the US goverment powerful, they can make social reforms inside the US, but they need to swallow other countries energy.

But, as powerful it may seem, Imperialist goverments around the world are not perfect. Those countries like the US, european ones for example, have weaknesses, just like the roman empire.

Who at the end conquer Rome? Peasants and barbarians!

Wow u do have a case against the American govt...
Well I see what this discussion has evolved to, and I'm not sure what to say but I'll try this:I'm not out to support the American govt and I do know the capitalist motivations it has (Gulf War for oil)...I definitely hated them for stuff like that. But it dawned on me that no govt can be perfect since it is in the end created and run by humans. Go work and see;even in the highest halls of learning are there personal agendas and motivations, butt-licking and shoe-shining. I've come to look at these govts alot less critically in this case.
Its the law of human nature:power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Given the same access to power America has, can no country feel the same greedy motivations? Will a world with the strongest power being say Russia or China be any better? Its a comfort that even with absolute power the world's govts are at least doing this well so far...but about absolute control and the "big bro" thing well...
...This reminds me of an interesting game I played once:Deus Ex. The theme was much like Matrix-black coats and all...and one of its possible endings show humanity living under a computer designed to govern yet serve humanity with an effectiveness that human temptation would never ruin. Made me think how true that wish has become...anyone else tried it? What were the other endings again?

Sight , I think you've been a bit blind this time round ...

The end never justifies the means.... i believe that you cannot build your own freedom on someone else's suffering.

Like Morpheous.... i believe that we can and will be saved... Battles are being fought and won everyday in many ways.... not by violence but by submission..... the idea that " when i am weak, i am strong". That is power.









"I understand how: I do not understand why." George Orwell- 1984