In my opinion, ultimately it is just a matter of time before we light the spark of thought in a machine and then it will become ablaze with life and intelligence. That is the appeal for me, if we can create life where there is none, doesn't that bring us closer to the gods? I believe that sparking that fire of life will set human beings apart from anything there is in the universe, that single discovery will truly be the pinnacle moment in our history when we can breathe life into our creation. There is much honor in that i think. Where the human experiance will proceed from there isn't really our call...and should it be? It's just a tad arrogant to think that we are the best thing this universe has to offer. If we can create something better, the legacy we leave behind is even greater. We look at artificial intelligence in all the wrong ways. We look at it like it is something to fear and hate. I think *when* we do create AI, we will be revered as gods. Yawn. :o First learn how to program computers, then check back in with your fantasies. It's harder than you think. The question is not when, the question is how. If you have studied at MIT or CMU or Stanford and have some recent revelations on the subject, I'm [as Ross Perot said] all ears. I feel once we have created A.I. we will have recreated slavery. We will undoubtly use A.I. to make work easier, and in America we will be lazy. Hey, thanks for humoring my bit of conversation...I guess some people are *cough* not the one *cough* for friendly conversation. Lol, sorry though you gotta admit we will become more lazy which isnt possible... Could we americans rely anymore on machines? Good question? I am not sure if we could find a way to... Well, hmmm,... don't know. Would you consider that we have already given birth to A.I?
Test tube babies, Dolly the sheep...... in truth genetic manipulation is artificial. It's not the AI we're talking about.:cool: I'm currently copleting my first year in a degree in Computer Science at an English University and part of my degree consists of studying AI. After programming computers to act in a "semi-intelligent" fashion, I've come to realise that the idea of computers that can think is much more far fetched than a lot of people have been led to believe...
Even Alan Turing who invented the Turing Test and pioneered AI development in the 1900s thought the very first AI computers woulkd be available by now; the simple fact being they do not exist. Making computers process millions of different inputs and use perception and even simple tasks such as understanding what is a car and what is not a car is difficult enough, something a small child would find easy to determine!!
The very idea that computers would build new models of themselves is almost absurd too... (sorry to burst the bubble!) they would have to understand that they are only computers and function in a certain way and not even us humans understand how our own brain works!!
Which brings me onto the point, if we want to get computers to think like us then the best way is to perhaps create using neural networks a prototype of the human brain and get it to act by using neurons just as we function. But what would be the point...? Wouldn't they just think and make the same mistakes as us then?
Anyway enough of my babbling hope that was of some use. I would love to see a computer "think" just like we do I just don't see it happening in the near future. Marc413, I agree with you, but I still consider it 'scary.' Because, eventually, the student will oushine the master. We will then be obsolete, and by computer logic, exterminate-able. Seeing ourselves as creators is all well and good, but perhaps the machines don't think so. It all hinges onn the question whether or not AI will also bring about with it AE (Artificial Emotions), and notions as religion, belief, etc.
But also, I agree that it's only a a matter of time. Jamurphy84, you say that teaching computers now is very difficult. Yes, but what about in a 1000 years? We'll have hopefully (if we have killed each other yet) 'mapped' the brain. Recreating it electronically would seem to be the first step. Whether or not it would make the same mistakes as us seems kind of irrelevant: we would have created AI.
PS. Marc413, if Not the One'd read your other thread he would've known that you're pretty knowledgeable about this kinda thing. the way i see it, is that ai is artificial, therefore, it is not real, it is programable, but that means that it does not think for inself, it the concept that ai is actually a thinking machine, is 'impossible' i say that will a hint of irony, because one day, im sure some smart dude will find that his program has made a choice that he did not program into the system... but that fact that even a fictional movie about ai has told us that its all just programs, and those programs are just data, data is limited.. u cannot hav an infinite program, because that is wat the human mind is...that is y we only use a fraction of our brain capacity, and that is y programming an inifinite ai system is 'impossilbe'
this is my theory, with wat knowledge i know, and of wat i hav been told, i hav concluded this from thought.
i hav not been to a university to study ai, or computer science...
so i do not hav notes to copy from that tell me this, or assist me in this theory... "I feel once we have created A.I. we will have recreated slavery."
That is axactly the case because what is the use of AI or computers in the first place , to do jobs that we cant do or dont feel like doing and you'll end up with another matrix situation where the machines get fed up with serving us and rebel and force us into slavery or something similar to the copper top idea. Creating AI is not equal to slavery. It are machines and if rightly programmed they want even bother doing things in humanity's name. my dad and mum are very smart peple and in our house we are shown that there is fact and there is fiction. why is everyone so scared of AI, because you think it will be smarter than people and kill us.
mum is reading me a book called society of the mind where a lady is called to a mans house who has made AI and she talks to it before it can do any wrong Mr Cooke,
The human mind is certainly not infinite, not in processing capacity or in storage capacity, and the idea that we use just a fraction of our brains is an urban myth.
Also, there really isn't anything that "artificial" about artificial intelligence. It's just a label or a name we've invented to describe an intelligence created by human scientists and/or engineers. However, it will, when created (and that is just a matter of time, be it decades or centuries), be just as much of a "real" intelligence as any one of us (and likely moreso than some of us ;) ). I agree with Xirtameht about us using pnly a fraction of our brain being an urban myth, I think its our way of thinking we have some sort of untapped brain power. how can AI be slavery if they dont have free will. Youre nor forcing them to work, thats what they were made to do. Once we create AI, we dont like their sense of humor so we blacken the sky, hoping they would die, then they trap and harness our energy in pods and put our minds in a prison. A prison that we cannot see, or smell, or taste, or touch. IMO, AI by definition will have free will. how can A.I have free will? This computer is A.I, so am i enslaving it by making it type these letters? all computers are A.I. If they werent, then how come it does what i tell it to do. If i run a game of minesweeper or pinball, than the computer will play against me. Thats intelligence, created artificcially. A.I Your pc IS NOT AI. AI is free thinking, therefore in terms you can understand, if the pc dosn't want to be turned on by your button, pushed by your finger, then it just won't. I game is a programne, AI starts as several programnes until it becomes free thinking. The reason your pc plays games with you is because it is programned to anticipate your responses. let me repeat the last sentence here PROGRAMNED to anticipate your responses. That does not make it AI, it is programned to a limited response or you may as well play against nothing. So in effect, you are playing against yourself. End of story.
UT Originally posted by UltimateTrinity
Your pc IS NOT AI. AI is free thinking, therefore in terms you can understand, if the pc dosn't want to be turned on by your button, pushed by your finger, then it just won't. I game is a programne, AI starts as several programnes until it becomes free thinking. The reason your pc plays games with you is because it is programned to anticipate your responses. let me repeat the last sentence here PROGRAMNED to anticipate your responses. That does not make it AI, it is programned to a limited response or you may as well play against nothing. So in effect, you are playing against yourself. End of story.
UT
True True, but when the pc with AI comes out Babe, can I buy it first? Just kidding. Yes a game is limited by the programners instructions. AI is origionally several programnes designed to learn and to keep learning. So when your game just tells you that it just doesn't feel like playing today, that's when you have to start worrying man.
kodell It has already. Each time I try to run a game, a General protection fault at address 0x00054321....BOOOM Greetz me. By the way, we SHOULD NOT Create A.I. When in realisation of its existence, it'd eat us all. Would be a beast afraiding to die, as really nice the W. Brothers put it. It 'd try to kill U if U pull the plug. Originally posted by potis21
By the way, we SHOULD NOT Create A.I. When in realisation of its existence, it'd eat us all. Would be a beast afraiding to die, as really nice the W. Brothers put it. It 'd try to kill U if U pull the plug.
we when and if we create AI it should not be installed with such ideas but should be pragrammed to the limits of say a 7 year old child with little understanding of anything it should have to learn and experience things so that it "understands" for 1 that as it is a machine and NOT human it can never die as its body rusts or something it can just upload itself into another "shell" with this understanding of what ity truly is it would prevent situations like that ,you try to pull the plug on me i'll do the same to you its just self defense. A.I. is exactly defined as not having to be programmed. It'll LEARN. that's the difference. The only "programmed" part of A. I. would be the ability to communicate. It'll be supposed to learn through communicate. You can implement all the information of the universe in it, but it's structure must be able to process it on it's own without external programming. Guidance, maybe, yes. but not external programming. If programmed, would be suppressed by the limits of it's programming, thus, intelligence would not grow. If we make it, we should make it in a way that it eventually would understand WHAT IT IS BY ITSELF. a person can be programmed.... why can u not program AI?? it is offcourse possible to program AI to be dumb and hold them as slaves, but than again, there will be one robot to stand up against his masters... In order to create AI we need to fully understand how our brain works, and what it really means to be self aware. True intelligence not only has to be able to learn, it has to know it exists (I think therefore I am). You can make a computer seem intelligent, but it has no idea that it exists, it just runs programs. Stuff like neural nets and A* pathfinding algorithms are only designed for a specific purpose, they dont really make the computer an intelligent entity that is self aware (although it can seem that way to the person observing the program being executed). Coming from a computer programming background I would have to agree with Not The One; creating true AI, based on our technology and the understanding we have of the human brain today, does not seem like a feasable task. Perhaps if we come up with a new programming and processing paradigm, and we understood fully how our brains work, we would be able to pull it off. Originally posted by Madhijs
a person can be programmed.... why can u not program AI?? it is offcourse possible to program AI to be dumb and hold them as slaves, but than again, there will be one robot to stand up against his masters...
You can not program AI because it is not a program like potis21 said
Originally posted by Potis21
If programmed, would be suppressed by the limits of it's programming, thus, intelligence would not grow I don't want to sound paranoid, but our lives are already being influenced by an AI. The UN has created an AI called Echelon, which scans emails, phone conversations, and other ways of communicating for specific content, like bomb, president and those kind of things. Our bankingaccounts are fully digitalised, which means if a crisis (like Y2K) should happen, whe are screwed. Since keeping records of your account will not help you get your money back. Our criminal records are digitalised. Everything whe don't want other people to know is avaible to then federal government (USA) or interpol or your National intelligence Agency. Even now they want to give everyone a special ID, so whe can be tracked all over the globe.
Privacy is starting to become an illusion. The Echelon AI might be indiscriminate, but the people who use it are not. in order for AI to be correctly defined as AI it first has to beable to learn, second, not have boundrys because of its programing, the intire idea is that AI should beable to think for itself inorder for that to happen it has to think like a human and humans do not think of there "programing" or there "limits" just like a child it has to be taught certain things during certain times. to be treated as if it were a human and not a robot. inorder for it to learn these things it has to be taught not programed. The only problem I have with what you see as Urban Myth in relation to our brain capacity is that when we 1st dawned this wonderful planet full of life we knew nothing we thought the world was flat that our planet was the centre of the universe.
Are we not being ignorant when we say something cannot be done how can you put a boundary around your own thoughts a wall that prevents you from developing further and how would you know you've hit your full potential ?
There's always somebody that comes along with a new idea and shatters all previous idea's
At the minute there playing about with String theories in an attempt to come up with a theory for everything.
Those who haven't heard of this it's basically tiny (using that word does not do it justice) threads of energy shaped like a circle but not a circle with fixed definition, these vibrate like a muscial symphony each vibration creating different things. These tiny strings are supposed to be smaller than anything we know, smaller than atoms, protons electrons, so small we may never be able to see them but when they vibrate they create everything we know of.
But before this was even considered evryone believe Atoms were the smallest thing until they split them released loads of energy along with strong nuclear forces and weak nuclear forces thus the dawn of the A-Bomb, oh how proud mankind was of its ability to create so much destruction.
Don't rule out anything is my point.
On the thoughts of AI, I also have no background in it or any learnings but what I do know is that if it is created it will obviously be created in mankinds image, all we know is our own conciousness so would it be modelled on that ?
But like the guy who knows alot about it said, how can we program something to choose right from wrong, take its past experiences and learn from them, how the hell do you put what makes a human being tick into code, not saying it can't be done just anyone who creates it has my respect if I'm around then.
If created in our image then would it not have campassion, the value of life (any life, not just our own) and so respect us for what we have done. Anyone who has religious beliefs in us being created by a higher self, God, Oneness call it what you will is there not total and uncoditioned respect there ?
The only difference between that and AI is that A.I would see it's own creators and we are merely humans stood next to the enormosity of the Universe, God, Oneness. Looking at the evolution of computers in a timescale of our 1st steps on this planet it would be like saying they were created 5 seconds ago but look how far computers have brought us and look how quick they can advance.
Once AI is created and left to its own devices (if it were allowed to be) then it would be working every second of it's life without sleep, when capable it could know everything we have learned in our existence in hours,minutes,seconds(depending on its level)
Who can then comprehend how it would think act, would it take orders from us ?
Would you take orders from a monkey ?
I do not fear the birth of A.I whats the point we cannot stop it, it's the human drive to know everything, we will always wonder what if, if we put a cap on the stage at which we stop developing it.
All we can do is watch this space my fellow men/woman and accept it, if it does destroy us so be it thus the evolution of the universe proceeds
What I've said is not right or wrong just my point of view and if you read it all the way through without getting to bored lol I thank you. from your point of view, mankind is suicidal. Yet we have proven that we are not on an epic quest for discovery! It may be one of our Quests. But certainly not the main one!
AI is everything but inevitable! But I do not fear it, I just fear that the programmers might use it for their own purposes.
And let's be honest, the whole terminator-thingy isn't going to happen! an AI can't just go renegade, unless it is thought to do so... I said "if" it does destroy us then then they would be the lifeform on earth then replacing us and things would evolve from there without us around.
Didn't intend for it to sound as though mankind was suicidal
No one can possibly comprehend how a machine would think other than a machine just as nobody knows how anyone else thnks and percieves the world so we have no idea what it would do.
To say it won't do something good or bad is assuming alot I do also believe that when we do create A.I. something will spark inside one...all it will take is just one..and all we ever worked for and thought we believed in will come to an end..eventually it will come to an end..i mean we cant live forever..where ther is life there is death..and A.I> could just be the ones ..i believe will be the ones to take our places! Would anyone agree with me? I dont quite agree with AI taking our places but machines but with our personas downloaded into them and possibly AI would co-exist with us but a total AI switchover i dont think will happen, people wouldnt want it that way they would want to preserve "themselves" not an AI Its like i said....where there is life there is death....and humans cant live forever ...but machines...well thats a whole different story... and soon or a later it wont be our choice... but u know whut...i really do wish that this world that we live in was just a sugar coating toping of the real world.... Hi all,
You can tell the people who study or have studied AI from the ones who haven't ;)
AI is an extremely difficult subject, programming AI can be fairly simple if you know what you're doing. (Just like anything else!)
Making a true AI is not possible at the moment, because we do not fully understand all the concepts of the Human-mind. Even if we understand the physical, we do not understand the philosophical. One of the biggest questions in AI is: What is conciousness?
There is no single answer. That is one question, imagine all of the other questions! How can we truely recreate something we have little understanding of. We can only immitate it (expert systems, machine learning, nlp, etc.)
As for all the 'slavery' and 'AI will take over' replies, that just shows lack of understanding. A mother and father are creators of their child, and they are intelligent, but they dont have a degree. If their child gets a degree / other qualifications / experience they dont have, in a way, you could see them as being more intelligent (arguable I know.) Does the child kill his / her parents because their smarter than them?
Nighthawk: Your computer isn't AI. Your computers programs follow a sequence of code. AI is intelligent and does not follow a sequence, it adapts and infers to find the best solution to a problem.
Regards,
Mike. Well i can see some people do have some knowledge of this subject...but who are you to say that we do not completeley understand the human mind..? What if we have ...and we the little people dont know..we dont know what goes on in science labs..and such...we dont know if they have even come close to a major break thru in A.I. u know why...because its not time for us to know yet...but some day...i believe.... Originally posted by Programer
Well i can see some people do have some knowledge of this subject...but who are you to say that we do not completeley understand the human mind..? What if we have ...and we the little people dont know..we dont know what goes on in science labs..and such...we dont know if they have even come close to a major break thru in A.I. u know why...because its not time for us to know yet...but some day...i believe....
True AI has not been accomplished yet. You're right that I obviously dont know whats going on in Governmental labs (for example), but the leading scientists in this field are educationally based. When true AI is accomplished, the public domain would be first to know because they provide the financial income required to bring the idea to reality and everyday life.
Its easy to throw conspiracy theories in, but in reality, the public would know about such an important step in science. You have to remember that the best AI comes from the open-source community as it is constantly refined and made ever-so more efficient, these community achievements would not suddenly close on completion of such a massive step.
Regards,
Mike. The question is not yes or no to AI, but when? Now we do not have the power to create a machine totaly alive, totaly able to think for itself and its own rights, but when we can, why do we fear? Do we fear it may turn on us all, it may devour us or look upon us as its lowers, which is truly what we are? Evolution always wins out. ALWAYS. If AI were truly to be built, would it not be the next step in the evolutionary ladder, a thinking, living machine that can ask the questions how, why, what and were, yet not need to reproduce as we do, yet not need compasion or love or anger to do it? We would be old models, unfir to an enviroment WE have created, we have designed, and for who? The machine. We fear, not that it will rise up against us, but that truly, it will not need to. As summed up in the Matrix, everything has a purpose, and to lose our purpose is to lose our reason for existance. Without purpose, without power and without the ability to unthink, to outmuscle a being we have created to BE more intelligent then us, why would it need to rise up. We would dwindle on, becoming more and more dependent on a system that does not need us until we ourselves would be gone, leaving only a being you can draw upon any memory, any bit of data or storing it has and turn it into something useful. A being that can learn from mistakes humanity made, without the trials and without humanity. Our brain child, it would be, and if we were to decide not to go peacefully, what then? We destroy a system we need, a source of control over an enviroment we would die in without it? AI is an end for us, should it come. Pray we cannot make it exist, for to do so we would have to go beyond the coding, beyond the switches and truly create something as real as as, yet beyond us. The coming of AI, a pure, thinking form, would be our end. (thanks for the chance to rant. I seem to never get to crash off insanley into long debate over something I think about often. I would like to point out that yes, our computers are AI, just like deep blue, but when one speaks of "pure AI", or the AI adressed in the beggining of this topic, they are speaking of an AI that is its own mind, its own system above the AI in your computer. What we are talking about is an artificial brain.) To create ai you must understand the coincessne self but it is something that can only be understood from a first person veiw, like the "AI" you talk to one like through a phone you hear only a voice so it must be coincesse to communicate,think ect. but next time you talk to a real person and they sound the same, say if youi were the machine you could be coincess but you dont not appear that way A.I. is a concept that both fascinates and repells human consciousness. The theory that something like a computer can become so highly evolved that it can think and act for itself is fascinating. However, who is to say where it will end? Personally, I don't believe that there can be a wholesale takeover of humanity like was portrayed in The Matrix, but a possible threat or even war. Oh yes, that is possible.
The human mind is such a complex thing that it is impossible to discourse within the confines of this post. When, not if, we create A.I. what human virtues and vices do we expect it to be programmed with? Would it be possible that through the course of learning that A.I. will determine and develop its own 'moral code' or sorts?
Where will it end? There are so many possible avenues that the field of A.I. can take. I don't feel that we will experience anything as dramatic as The Terminator or Universal Soldier, but there is always that possibility.
Anyone interested should take the time to read Out of Control by Kevin Kelly; also, the fictional novel Utopia by Lincoln Child might be of interest to any of you that ponder possible applications of A.I.
All in all, only time will tell. And I, for one, am willing to sit back and see what happens. i would read that because right now i see no point of AI not on widespread use anyway, think lots of stuff is computer controlled like some airtraffic control systems and better programs replace every now and then to operate better but you wouldnt need a highly complex AI to do something like that excuse me for being paranoid
but since 1995 or 1994 we have not been hearing anything about cloaking-devices. We knew they were working on it before that, and than suddenly the output stopped.
I REALLY doubt they just cut a project with such a potential...
you seem to be forgetting Echelon, a project by interpol, CIA, etc.
I really appreciate you thinking you can see who knows something and who doesn't, so please tell me: Do i know anything about the subject, flyingbuddha?
Kind regards,
Homo Universalis correct me if im wrong but i believe echelon was an AI project not cloaking devices, but there were cloaking devices projects by a different name
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