Mr. Anderson is dead, now Neo must die...

Part I

The following is thoughts & questions that M1/M2 has awakened in me, both old ones as well as new. I’ll try to keep this short, but I’m not sure that I can. Read this if you find the time and if you choose to do so I recommend that you print it out if that is an option, cause this could take a while…

I find it really interesting that M1/M2, besides a philosophical depth, also addresses theological questions. Please do not let the word scare you. By theology (or religion by that matter), I foremost mean spirituality and existential questions about the relationship between Man and God/Universe. M1/M2 combines elements from Hinduism, Buddhism, Sufism, Islam, Christianity etc. with ancient and modern philosophy. These things you already know, but I feel I have to write them down for the argumentation below.

I would like to start with a very interesting discussion that has taken place in this forum, namely the Matrix within the Matrix theory (MIM). After seeing M1, but mainly after M2 I have been thinking about this matter, and it represents for me the very core of the problems regarding the true nature of reality and maybe more importantly how we can gain knowledge about it. Personally I’m willing to subscribe to theories on both sides (for &against MIM). Someone made a point by stating that the “real world” cannot be another part of the Matrix, cause in that case Neo should be able to see the “coding” there as well. But I do not believe that is necessarily true. As you recall Neo first saw the “codes” when he began to fully believe and accept that the world he saw wasn’t real. His “death” symbolizes his transformation from “Mr. Anderson” to “Neo” and subsequently a higher level of awakening. This thought finds support in what the oracle told Neo (or rather “Mr. Anderson”) in M1. He had to choose between himself and Morpheus. By making that choice he sacrificed himself, gave up his own Ego and thus transcended to “Neo”. Similar thoughts can be found in (zen)Buddhism and Sufism about leaving ego & self-identity behind for higher levels of awakening – the ultimate “goal” is non-existence, Nirvana, Fana (Arabic; perish) or whatever it may be called. My point is that Neo, if still being in MIM, cannot see the coding because he believes that the world he sees is real (as Morpheus said; “a dream so real…”), and maybe at the end of the movie he realizes this MIM condition and his coma then could symbolize his “second” death/awakening. (I will get back to this awakening later on.)

On the other hand, if we reject the MIM-theory, we must first of all accept that at some level there must be something that we can call “real”. R. Descartes’ famous quote; “I think, therefore I am” suggests for us that even if we question our every sensation, we can be sure of one thing – someone (I) is sensing and that someone must be “real”. Descartes’ “Brains in Watt”- theory and Plato’s “Cave-analogy” must be considered as a great inspiration for this trilogy. Anyhow if we move on to Kant and his distinction between “the world outside” and “the inner representation of it” we come upon a very important factor – consciousness. The outside world is/exist for us through our mind/consciousness. In a way we cannot say anything (with certainty) about the “real world”, we can only know what we become aware of – our mental representation of the world. Research has also shown that the “band-width” of the human consciousness is somewhere between 3-7 bits/sec. Compare this with millions and million bits of sensory information that we receive each second through our senses and receptory cells. From this we can say that our consciousness presents for us an illusion or rather only a simulation of the real world.

But there is still another dimension to the human mind. Our mind is focused only on a few aspects of the world around us at any given time. This is partly due to our relatively limited “band-width”, but mainly because our mind is intentional. If we are hungry we are more likely to spot (register) a restaurant on the street, or if one of our elbows hurt we become aware of it (a part of our body that constantly sends us information, that we usually neglect) so we can attend to it. We could just say that some information is more “useful” to us than others, and those aspects are the ones we choose to see. So in that way our mental representations are subjective and strongly connected to who we are – our ego. Our values, self-identification, etc. regulates how we perceive and what we choose to perceive from the world around us. My point is, we are, even without AI & machines in a self-constructed Matrix of our own minds. In Hinduism this phenomenon is called “Maya”(illusion), in Buddhism this is also referred to as the “illusion of the ego”. To “escape” from this we must give up our wanting, strive, purpose etc. things that originate/emanate from the ego and “tells” us who we are, who we want to be or what job we should have. Once again our ego is our biggest enemy on the road to awakening and enlightenment. Only when we give up our illusions and ego can the truth about reality be revealed to us. Like when Mr. Anderson was willing (and did so) to face the biggest ego-sacrifice – death – then he could see the truth behind the illusion (the coding).

continues on the next post...

Part II

In many religions different levels of awakening/enlightenment are often mentioned. Buddha experienced seven different awakenings on his way to enlightenment (it was actually after the last one he became the enlightened one), in Sufism it is mentioned of “seven deserts of love” (by Attar) different states of the being/ego on the way to unity with God and non-existence, in Islam & Christianity there are notes about seven heavenly bodies. And Mohammed for example, sometime AFTER he had the revelations on the mountain, he was taken to the seventh heaven to meet his God without veils. Neo has, what we have seen so far, also experienced different states of awakening, or as the Architect said; “the process has altered his mind” (notice that “Neo” means “new” and the word new refers to some kind of a change/changes). First by questioning his life in the Matrix and looking for the truth (“it’s the question that drives us”), secondly his actual awakening to the real world by taking the red pill, which can be considered as an act of belief. Thirdly the “death” of Mr. Anderson and transcendence to “the one”, a state of mind that fully understands the illusion of the Matrix (at least as a human… I’ll get back to this). And so finally also his ability at the end of M2 to stop the machines with the power of his will, which also can be considered as an awakening, cause he has gone beyond/exceeded his former “powers”, he has now understood something else about himself and his relation to the world around him.

But the question still remains; how was he able to stop those machines? If we accept the MIM-theory we could say that he saw the “coding”, and understood also this part of the Matrix with its illusions. But if we don’t accept this, there can be other explanations. This particular one is closest to my heart: it begins with Neo saying that he can “feel” the machines. I believe that the meeting with the Architect for Neo led to a better understanding of himself and his true nature. In one of my earlier posts (Oracle’s apartment > before Neo’s coma…page 2) I wrote that I believed that Neo met himself in that room. With other words, Neo & the Architect are two sides of the same coin. You could rather say that Neo is the human incarnation of the Architect (“God” of the Matrix) with all his abilities, somewhat like Jesus as Son of God. We know that Neo is the start and the end of every new version of the Matrix – Creation and destruction, two very distinctive attributes of God (this is evident in Hinduism as works of Brahma and Shiva and like the Matrix necessary elements of the circle of life). And the fact that time no longer contains him or as the oracle said; “You have the sight now”, also points to another “quality” of God - timelessness. But I think now it would be interesting if we for one second returned to what was said above regarding enlightenment and the “destruction” of the ego.

The last stage of Buddha’s awakening was his ultimate defeat of his ego, which for its own survival tried to “fool” Buddha into self-identity, by congratulating him as being “the enlightened one”. Buddha became truly enlightened by rejecting this “labeling” from his ego and thus “killing” it for he was now no man and every man. Neo on the other hand has a clear and evident ego throughout the whole M2. He wants to now what he must do, who he is and what he is. The Oracle pointed out the phrase “Know thy self” to Neo in M1 and I believe Neo after the meeting with The Architect is beginning to Know and understand his TRUE existence. This makes me believe that “Neo”, if not already dead, must die to fulfill the prophecy – end of war between man and machine. By dying I don’t necessarily mean a physical death, only transformation from Neo into a new state, in this case to becoming what he truly is, the human incarnation of the Architect. End of the war symbolizes for me, not the end of the machines, but harmony between Man & Machine/programs. This symbiotic state already exists in Neo – he is both Man and Machine as the human incarnation of the Architect (like Jesus; 100% Man and 100% God), by fully realizing that he can end the war and bring Man and Machine together, which he himself is a manifestation of. Like Jesus had to die on the cross to reconcile both sides of his dualistic nature – unity of God and Man (for further thoughts about this watch the last movie of Animatrix). So how did he stop those machines? Well if he is this being, he controls the machines even outside the Matrix, for he in fact is their creator (something like the “main computer” if you like). Anyhow I find it to be real interesting that by stopping those machines he entered a state of coma himself. The coma can as I said earlier symbolize the end of Neo as we know it and a start of something else. The “problem” is, as Neo said choice. If this is anywhere near what the W. Brothers have in mind for M3, well then I’m going to miss Neo, but I know I’ll love what he becomes.

There is a lot more I would like to discuss here (Agent Smith for example) but I feel I already have taken up too much of your time. I wish I could send along with this post a “digital aspirin” if I have caused anyone headaches with my babbling. Thank you for taking time to read this and I look forward to hear your thoughts about this and other related stuff about the Matrix.

Excellent piece of homework man!
I must say this is the way a solid analysis has to be done-everyone says the Matrix is based very much on theology and religion but nobody really could pin down the ways...this dissection sure taught me alot...where'd u get this stuff? It was already a mind-job trying to learn about Plato, Kant, Hume and their ilk but I never thought of looking up Hinduism and Buddhism. Headache or none this chance to truly sit down and ponder is one the very spirit of this forum cannot allow us to miss...like the similarity of him and Jesus. I thought of it before, even thinking it was a little bit anti-Christ because he was a saviour that was more a doomsday device and that the God implied in the movie was the Architect/Matrix but never saw anyone post something about this...still there are a few queries I'd like explained...
...For example there are many references to things happening in the "real world" that doesn't give credence to the fact that the final few scenes were a delusion to Neo, and maybe the rest of the crew as well...like the destruction of...er...the other ship that was assigned to help the Neb from the Sentinel/bomb thingies-this was repeated on Niobe's ship as shown at the rear parts of the game Enter The Matrix. Unless this was some huge lie that took in so many other people including unplugged ones like Spark it can't possibly add up.
Also with all the talk of death and rebirth there must be a certain pattern to this:he needs to die-or generally go through some huge trauma-in order to "reach the next state" yet he not only "reached" it for a short while BEFORE the coma, the coma was self-induced. This is a little far from the Enlightenment idea in Buddhism. Isn't it?
It's a pity no one else replied to this thread by now...unless of course they did in spades in your other thread-that I admit I didn't find out...still we should learn from wat u said and go through a little "nirvana" of our own...lose our self-ego and look at other theories instead of saying "hey look at my idea its cool and original too"...which I can quite sheepishly say I did when I just entered this way cool forum...thumbs up Rumi!! Let's keep doing wat Morpheus says and "Free Our Minds"!!

Bravo. Finaly someone can put everything together. I would definetly like to read more of your thoughts on the big picture. Please post more. Alot of the things people post make no sense as far as the relationship between The Matrix and philosophy/religion.

except neo doesn't die in the third one. sorry.

I dont wanna wear this out but I saw M2 again yesterday and I would like to point out one thing in the movie that I find really interesting (among a whole bunch) and I would like to know what you think of it:

oracle to Neo; "Im interested in one thing - the future - and the only way to get there is together". Do you think by "together" she means Man-Machine? or something else?

what Hamann says to Neo is also interesting in this regard...

You could be very right about this "together" by the oracle. I've thought about it but I couldn't come up with an answer. But now I've read your post it makes more sense. At first I didn't believe in the symbiosis between man and machine but your post makes sense and now I start to get more comfortable with the thought.

I have a question too, maybe you can answer it. Remember the scene at the beginning of the movie when the Nebu is about to enter Zion?? Link contacts Zion and he asks if he has permission to get in. He talks to this lady who is guiding all the ships in and out (together with a few others). She is sitting in an unusual white room and here clothes are also unusual white (not like any other clothes yopu see in Zion). Just before you see this part you can see this woman in "real world"-clothes lying in a chair like she is plugged in. You can see this for only one second so you have to pay some attention to notice this.

my answer to your last question...
Im not really sure, but in that scene you can see some people "plugged in" somehow like on those chairs used for hacking in to the matrix. my guesse is that they are using the same technology, (for its more efficient?) for their own use, like some kind of "intranet"... maybe

Interesting and very well done text! :) More!

Interesting theory, you must have been in my mind…;)

if there a part of kant's work the WB have been inspired by, it would be the determinism, and descartes "i must dout of everything" is one of the first method of a book demonstrating that there is a god, not that you are a god like you seem to apply to neo.i really found the second part of the theory really interesting tho, especially since i don't need Aspirin to read it anymore.f you accept that theory, then this induces that the ones were re incarnation of the previouses ones tho,

now it's not really hard to guess that neo will probably die in the third opus when kenu reeves said that the first movie was about birth (neo's birth), the second about life (neo's love), and the third about death.

Die, die into this love
if you die into this love you will find your soul....

Hello mr Rumi
The reason i write this to you is that i feel you are a very intelligent person who may be worth being enlighted!
I will began this with a very simple quesstion;
How long will you continiue being the slave under the controle of your mind?
And why am i asking you this?
well, all your statements are without doubt a projection of your mind, and not only your mind but all the rest which has been created by other minds, like Jesus or Buddha or mohammed and not to mension the teachings of the Sufie masters which im certain has influed your believ system into the very roots!
All this teories and construstions and believs are products of your mind some of them have you barrowed from the old systems which clearly dosent work in oure times and some other believs you have created as a system to refill the gaps of quesstions which we all know is beyound oure minds.
yes mr Rumi you and your statemenst are once again a product of a caotic mind, none of them is your own actiual experiences. Once more you are a slave under yours and others mind and believs .
It is very clear to me that you have not yet tasted the very fragrance of the No mind experience, you are full of ideas and your ideas are being changed or rearranged as soon as you find more information and one day you will reallize that all your ideas have been only a shadow of the reallity but not the reallity it selv. ( there is a great footstepp between knowing and believing )
If you now aloud me i will ask you another quesstion;
how many seconds of your life do you beside reading books and whaching movies and THINKING putt on meditating ?
Do you know that Rumi him selv was a master meditator?
and if it was not because of the stupidity of people around him he would have never spend a second on talking and explaining that which cannot be explained!
dropp all your ideas, silence your mind, seek aloneness and if you can darkness, listen to the sound of your inner mantra and become your own experience!
dropp all your believs and make every knowledge a product of your own experience and as you have explained so greatly; kill your ego and your believ system !
What Jesus did or said is based on his own experiences not yours
what was delieverd to him from his father was to him and to him alone not to anyone ellse !
you are the master of your own being!
set fire on all your books and ideas and systems, they are maded only for distruction , like a child who builds castles in the sand and when its all done he destroys it in one smash!
Become the master of your own being, become one!
Take the stepp towards the area of the no mind and dropp all your ideas, thoughts and believ systems because they wont help you any way!
And to all who read this ;
this was to mr Rumi and to him alone!
Thank you.

thank you for sharing your experience, I am greatful.
I am sad to say that I still am driven by my doubth rather than my believes. Maybe I am "waiting for something" too.

Thank you again, M

You most have a lot of thoughts about agent smith and his new roll in matrix and outside…I’ve been thinking a lot about it, but can’t put it together…can someone explain it to me?

Mr. No Mind

I would like to ask you, if you find it interesting, some things about the things you wrote...

Since I believe that Neo is on his way to a "no mind" state, I would like to know what you (and ofcourse anyone who is intrested and wants to contribute to the discussion) think about this - related to the movie - It could help me understand the movie and also my self better cause its put in another contex, that might help me go beyond myself and through this way find the way back...

Mr. Beyond.... a very interesting question. from reading your post I get the feeling that you yourself have lots of ideas about this matter,... I would love to hear them - yours and all you guys out there - cause agent Smith is a mystry to me. I cant connect with him fully, I dont understand his nature but I have some ideas. I promise I get back to you on that as soon as I can, But right now I have to be somewhere.

And if anyone is reading this, please share your wisdom about our favorite agent...

I Believe you have perfectly figured out Neos way to the no mind state but it is still not your own experience and what you believe and think about his and your own way to no mind is nothing but a " believe " nothing more, that will be a hindrance in your way, your believe system.
why?
Because a believ system or more correctly said your believ system is a collection of gatherd believs, it may be others believs as you have perfectly said or a result of your mind process " your imagination " ! but dont let me take away the pleasure from you because still, a seeker you are and a seeker is the one who will eventually find!
I have a suggestion for you, or you might take it as a advice.
Now when you have become a seeker its very important how you start, the very first step is the beginning because the very end is the result of the first step!
you have began the way to no mind. good but what is your own experience of no mind? how can you have this goal when you dont know what it is? you have only known the name, you have collect a mind allready around the subject which is not mind at all!!
so began your way by no expactations, step into the space of innocent and accept that you dont know your goal , just began the journey with no expactations with no mind in to it but rathere the heartbeat and the feeling of whanting to know!
dropp your believs , dropp you thoughts and sit on your lotus feets and meditate on that which is formless!
because that which is formless can only be endless and that which is endless can not be contented into a mind!
take my hand and began this journey and do not be afraid! naturally you will be afraide because fear is natural when one is dropping ones believsystem.
And now to your quesstion, what do i think about Neos way to no mind state related to the film?
i have no idea at all mr Rumi!
Im not Neo and im out of ideas. But i can tell you that from my own experience i can see what hindrances he would have if the no mind state really is his goal as i can see yours!
And because i might have been abit hard on you my beloved friend, i will not leave you empty handed;
Tell me one thing, would Neo have become who he is if Morpheus would have not told him that he is the one?
Finding the correct answere from you will be rewarded!
Thank you.

to Mr. no mind and all seekers

regarding your question about Neo & Morpheus;

Yes! I do believe that he would "end up" as he did anyway. or should I put it like this; Neo did'nt become who he is BECAUSE Morpheus told him anything, that I believe he had to find out for himself. And I think I see your point, anyone can be "the one" even if they constantly are told from their surrondings that they can't... is this not what the oracle told him; "sorry kiddo..."

the seven skies can't contain him
how does he fit in my clothes?

my knowledge about computers is very limited, close to nothing actually... can anyone help me out with an answer to this question? I will be very greatful

what does an "intuitiv program" really mean?
The Architect told Neo about the mother of Matrix, and the only way I can make this to make sense is that the "Mother" is a human being. I think when The Architect in that scene talked about a mind "less perfected" (from the architects point of view ofcourse) he ment a human mind...

I believe so because it would in a nice way symbolize that the Matrix is in fact from "both worlds" (in addition to the first post in this thread). who do you guys think is the mother...let me know, cause I can't back my idea up with anything more than the "symbioses" ...

secondly; in M1, when the agents insert that device in Neo's stomack, does it become organic? isn't it so that when its pulled out again it turns to a "machine" again. I find this intresting cause in that case the machines have found a way to "mix with (human) life", or do you think it is so just in the Matrix cause its not real. And if so then a whole new world of possibilities will be open. In the last film of Animatrix, the same thing can be noted, only this time the "humans" pull out something from a machine. Anyway its relevant I think, cause it symbolizes that "the machine" has been taken out of the robot, like if it was this creatures soul.

I don't know how to answer part 1 of the question. Although I think the "bug" in M1 is like the program in M2 in the cake at the restaurant that has the affect to the woman. I think it was a program that had an affect on Neo's coding wich would help the agents track him. If anyone else knows the answer please let me know.

Er about your questions I can't tell where one ends and one begins so I'll do my best.
In "Intuitive" he means a program that unlike most draws conclusions and decisions from Intuition, or you know-gut feeling. This is far from cold, hard logic based on computational facts that machines calculate by. Such has always been the difference between emotional mankind and cold computers...like James Kirk and Spock from Star Trek. There are undeniable benefits and drawbacks from emotions and intuition, but here the Architect clearly looks down on it. He can't implement it within himself because it would compromise his own programming so he placed it within the "Mother"-I believe the Oracle...that's why she doesn't seem to be co-operating with him and seems to side the humans-they with their intuition! Nice to see the parallels here that coincide with the ego and id...the governing, systematic part of our psyche and the more animal, instinctive one. The Arc and the Oracle, Neo and Smith, Arc and Neo...note that this means Neo actually becomes both the ego and id!!
But about the bug I'm guessing its jus a way of looking malevolent...trust the machines to make even a bug look deadly! About organic maybe not-its jus a way to show it was "on-line" and sentient...also like how a "pill" was actually a program...
About Neo and Morpheus I think so too-Morpheus's words were more to affect the audience-Neo arrived at his awakening by himself. After all when the Oracle asked him to look within himself for the answer he said "I'm not the One."

Lastly I know I'm not supposed to say this but "no mind" posted his discussion on a forum and that gives us all a right to reply...take his advice with a chunk of salt. Remember that "no-mind", or divinity or nirvana if I understand what he's saying, is like the Matrix:no-one can show it to you, much less give you advice. Sincerely I dun feel the need to attain that-its our love for thinking that brought us all to this forum. More importantly thinking is crucial for us to interact with our environment-especially for Neo. If he empties his mind there's no chance he'll feel any need or even be able to "wake up" and do anything for his cause...

thank you abmemtd and MacLeod for sharing that information. please post more about the "technological" aspects of the movie, I'm eager to learn...

Just some questions
what would you call Agent Smith now when he is unplugged? is he intuitiv or still based on logic. It seems to me that he is defying logic. in the trailer I think you even can see him fly, could that indicate that he is becoming more human-like... after all he even entred the "real world" in M2

I don’t think that The Oracle is the mother of Matrix. If you remember, The Architects answer to neo regarding this matter was (a very ironic) Please! It makes sense that the mother has to be a human and as we already know, The Oracle is “just” a program, or is she? Some people say Trinity, and my answer to them is Please!!! It just doesn’t make any sense! Remember the mother doesn’t have to be a woman. And isn’t Neo an "intuitive program" whenever he is in the matrix? He seems to “have access” to all codes (That’s why he can do the stuff he does) in The Matrix and is at the same time intuitive…so I think that the mother could be someone very similar to Neo or what do you guys think?

I came to think of agent Smith as a jinni in a bottle/lamp, whom was set free by Neo (the bottle symbolising The Matrix, with The Architect as it’s master). There are also some interesting stories in the bible and other mythological stories that can be compared with this phenomenon. For example King Salomon and his power to control the jinni’s, also the story about the fall of Babylon (one of the first human civilisations) and the huge similarities there…anyway, this is how I put agent smith into context.
(Later on, more about this and whether he is intuitive or still based on logic)

Hee tks rumi its nice to feel noticed...:p Sure I'll help wif any tech questions-I love technology and Sci-fi...yesyesyes!

I still think "She"'s the Oracle...it surely can't be Trinity...in all aspects "She" had been around for a long time...and Trinity was once looking for Morpheus...she's got very little history comparatively. Remember in M1 when they said the Oracle had been around for a long time...and that she was meeting a whole lotta pple (i.e the "waiting room n the kids in her apartment)...giving her the experience with them to work with...notice that the "Free People" r very dependent on her...thinking abt the events in M1 and in Reloaded too when Morpheus insists on Ballard staying back jus to get the Oracle's "approval" of their actions...
Lastly when u look at the Arc at that scene he says please (in my opinion) not with a "you poor dumb fool" but an "its so obvious I can't believe you had to say her name"...recalling all conversations Neo had with the Oracle and Arc he's a bright guy...jus a little slow at reaching answers without help but he reaches the right ones nonetheless..."I'd thought you'd figure that out by now..."

But abt Smith your guess's as good as mine...though if you think abt it in a system any program that doesn't belong is either hidden(y'know...junk cluttering the hard disk like those exiles in the Matrix) or a malevolent virus...exactly like Smith...I'd stick to that theory for now since it has such sweet irony (remember his tete-a-tete wif Morph)

To mr Rumi
Very well mr Rumi. thank you for your answer.
You will reciev your reward soon.

your time and interest are reward enough for me Mr. No miind...

All you guys; keep Smith alive!!!
I have changed my oppinion about him a bit, but it is just a "gut-feeling". I'll get back with how I see him as soon as I can make it senseable....

…Well, maybe that wasn’t what the Arc meant, but definitely what I meant when I said “Please!!!” but I guess you’ve figured that out by now;) on the other hand what I haven’t figured out is (if the oracle is, then) HOW she is, and in what way she became the mother?:confused: (Maybe she did it with the Arc :D) seriously can anyone explain that to me? I'm just a little slow at reaching answers without help...Thank you!

I also have a hard time just accepting that the oracle is the Mother. in a way you could say that the fact that she "knows" everybodies choises and future actions makes her very powerful, a power that The Mother surley posseses (one might assume). But doesn't Merov... also seem to posses that same power, that does not automaticly make him "the mother"...

I also share Beyonds thoughts; that "the mother" referes to a quality, rather than to a gender. that quality could be "human", if you think about it for a second from the architects perspective it is not impossible that he sees humans as an intuitiv program (as MacLeod said a program functioning from feelings rather than mathematical logic... not unlike humans)

The mother and the father are both creators, and if we accept the idea about neo being both man and "machine", then the mother seems more and more human to me. further (now I contradict myself a bit), the thought that even Neo could be The Mom is not impossible to me...

good night

Tks Beyond n rumi 4 the pts...very nicely considered...but Beyond what's wrong wif your text? i'm seeing funny symbols all over...<gasp> matrix symbols!! but seriously, they're there...

Ok...you're right about the meaning to "mother"...there's more than jus a literal sense to it-the movie jus gives the "mother" and "father" a sex...remember that the Architect said "...SHE must be its mother" ...So i believe it mus be a real "she" which narrows it down.Also the symbolism of mom and dad is again to mirror the ego and id...the dad is the disciplinarian while the mom tries to understand how the kids feel...she may spoil them or pamper them but in the end she must differ to the father...I wonder, does this mean the Oracle is still under the Arc's control?
Also pls note that the MeroVingian is not like the Oracle-he manipulates people but is not as skillfully as the Oracle...he can't even keep his wife (which incidently thinks very little of him) in check!
Another important note:there's a difference between an intuitive program and a human wif a link to machines...an android may actually have a mind and soul of a human but is still a machine:same vice versa. Thus Neo can't be an intuitive program and the Matrix and the agents aren't too...recall that the agents were described as "sentient" not intuitive...there's a difference. Intuition means the ability to make a choice or sense a situation without any logical clues...the agents are not like that...that's why they were given the jump on in so many occasions ("dodge this"...or Morph knocking Johnson off the truck...)
Lastly you're right about the Mother being essentially human...but remember that she wasn't so in the beginning..."Thus the answer was stumbled upon by another (program)"...."initially created to investigate certain aspects..." which means she is still not human but is a very close approximation. Notice how close Neo is to the Oracle...he smiles the warmest to her in all 2 movies and trusts her implicitly even though he knew she wasn't human...and it's hard not to see why-she's so lovable!! I woulda jus loved it if she was my gran'ma...:)

...."initially created to investigate certain aspects..." ;

you are right, if the architect is speaking the truth then the human-mother thing becomes absurd. but I still don't see why it has to be the oracle, even if she is motherly. another posibility is that we haven't been introduced to her yet.... It is not that, that I just want to disagree, but I just can't UNDERSTAND why the oracle has to be her...

there are tre awakenings for human consciousness!
I have not had the pleasure to see one single person in this site who have awakened to the first one!
Kids playing with stones !

In my opinion, i think that persephony is the mother of the matrix. i think macloed helped me come to this conclusion with his definition of "intuitive" as the the architect meant it. as most of you remember in M2, the only thing that persephony wanted from Neo was a kiss, but not just any kiss. one that showed true emotion, true love. she wanted to know what it felt like and when she did, she seemed as if she was in her own bliss. she did this again in "Enter the Matrix" to Niobe and Ghost. what i am thinking is that the mother of the matrix wasnt designed to know the, but what people are feeling, what their emotions are saying. that seems to be the one thing that persephony yearns for. any thoughts?

the idea of the mother that i stick to which favors the oracle cannot allow for persephone:the mother has to have had a considerable influence in the people in the matrix. she gave people a choice and researched the amount of control over people like this. she need not have presented the choice to all humans but created that idea and obviously interacted considerably wif the architect to perfect his later matrixes. all this definitely rules out persephone who jus comes across as a bored wife of a promiscuous but powerful man. she is extremely self-serving and has no understanding of the human psyche at all-jus what their state of Love is.
furthermore the oracle fulfils such a role. how better to influence humans and study and manipulate their thinking and emotions than be much like one herself? she's definitely mother-like to neo and such...so full of humanity and wisdom!

Hello mr macleod!
it is not in my interest to exchange masseges with anyone ellse but mr Rumi, but i just cant stand seeing you being completely WRONG !!

.................................
....wow. i believe i can dodge bullets too; i wonder if i should go try? And dun answer that.

A few points here:

1) No mind, what makes you see yourself as RIGHT and Macleod as WRONG?

2) Perhaps the next film will go along the lines of:

"There are no rules, Neo."
"Is that a rule?"

3) As for Buddhism, it's easy to graft on the notions of numerous philosophies / religions / theologies (Christianity, Pomo theory, Existentialism, Kant, Hegel, Marx, Derrida, Foucault, Plato, Buddhism, Zizek, Baudrillard &c.) onto the Matrix trilogy - it is intertextually playful, and wonderfully erudite (and broad) in its descriptions of the universalities of the human condition. However, as is the nature of our current postmodern / existentialist framework, I argue that the rules of The Matrix film are 'constructed' from our present reality - the computer simulation is a metaphor / metanym of our current system: decentralized selves, alienated minds deferred by the prospect of a chronic futurelessness driven / permeated by the constant isolating, castrating flow of information. Therefore, is the grafting of theories onto the Matrix an inversion of the creative process of the Matrix? A reduction of the versatility and intertextuality of the metaphor?

But just because The Matrix is metaphorical, doesn't mean it isn't real.

But it doesn't mean it's unreal either.

Broadly speaking, I wonder what exactly it is presently that distinguishes reality from belief? Does that make the belief system of The Matrix real?

Sorry if I'm philobabbling, but I think I know what the hell I'm talking about.

To Curios!
Hello Curios!
Well i dont think it is possible for me to answere your question why i believe macleod is wrong! because in those terms which your mind functions or thinks, it is not possible for you to understand me because you have first come to certaine realizations through your own experiences which you have not yet com! and if i was going to explaine for you im afraide you would not understand me.
so please forgive me to not be able to give you an explanation.
Thank you.

That's a good one Curios...you do know your homework! I wish I had a chance to truly take up philosophy...but I dunno how much I'll be up to the challenge. Just remembering the Greek names gimme a headache.
And No Mind...that's convenient. So i guess the human race is doomed because your enlightened mind is too high above ours to understand and emulate? Then I suppose I'm glad I'll die unenlightened, thank you Very Much.

Do not let you ego be a hindrance in your way as a seeker mr Macleod. it was not my perpose to make you angry, if i did im sory for that.

To rumi.

There's one thing I definitively not agree with most of the people in this forum:Neo never chose to be the "ONE".
1°)The fact that he became the "One" was not up to his will.
He never believed it nor even took the responsability of being the One:just remember his meeting with the Oracle.
He only believed the Oracle(the sacrifice stuff) because she let him suppose he was not the ONE.

2°)After he died,he woke up as the "ONE":there's no choice here,he just woke up directly seeing the Matrix code.
He didn't realize that he couldn't die because the Matrix is fake:otherwise no one knowing the Matrix is fake ,would die.
He came back to life because Trinity kissed him(there's here too no choice from Neo).
So here lies a big question:if she hadn't done it????

3°)Thomas Anderson has always been the ONE and the Oracle knew it before he knew it.
The real question is:why Neo is the ONE(there's a cause to it and it's not "simply fate") and how the Oracle knew it.

Because the fact that the Oracle is a program weakens the Prophecy and tells us this is more than "simple" fate:otherwise how a program can know the future???
____________________________________________________
"Councilor's words:we must understand WHY(or HOW,I don't remember) you are able to those things(when you are in the Matrix) before it's too late...".Because it's not a matter of fate but a matter of "why" or if you prefer a matter of "cause and effect."

Hello,

Oh right. Sure, no mind. Of course - you are the chosen one. You are an enlightened being, selected to guide those 'lesser beings' toward the promised land of ultimate knowledge / truth / wisdom / whatever.

And it's fine that I don't understand you. Or you believe / have convinced yourself that anybody who happens to question your dogmatic thought processes are wrong / spiritually unenlightened / have an ego / have a badly functionning mind.

It all seems very narrow to me, no mind. Minds are important, aren't they?

The way I see it, your pseudo-arguments never seem to answer a striaght-forward question clearly enough for *anybody at all* to understand your self-righteous bumf...

then you tell us that we'll never understand, or the path of understanding is a difficult one. Tell me, does it *really* pay to be so cryptic?

I'll ask again though, what is it that makes you RIGHT and me WRONG. What is this concept of enlightenment you speak about? Do you doubt your own enlightenment? Is it DANGEROUS to believe in your own spiritual / intellectual enlightenment to such an absurd degree as you seem to.

I might be wrong, and I'm not angry. I'd just like to hear a more constructive answer...I'm not mocking your beliefs, but I just want you to get rid of the dogmatic bumf and tell us what your actual beliefs *are*.

Macleod, I don't really know much about philosophy, to be perfectly honest with you: just a lame English degree and a certain, perverse enthusiasm about mind-bending philosophical doctrine taught me everything I know.

I always think it's important to be open to new ideas, though. I suggest it's more important than anything else, actually.

Persephone is not the mother of the matrix. She is a program, like her husband The Merovingian. They were "king and queen" over the first matrix (utopia), when everything was good. They've been living inside the matrix for so long, they've been saturated by it. This is why Persephone strives to feel love, passion, emotion. She secretly strives to be human. But, she isn't. She's just a program, like her husband.
Agent Smith says in M1 that he feels saturated by the smell. It clearly started to get to him. He began to feel bitterness about the entire situation. Persephone feels the very same way. It's much easier to hate than it is to love.

Bravo Cyfre! BRA-VO!!!
At last someone who speaks back at No-mind and doesn't subscribe to the Persephone theory...mind you I do feel respect for him for speaking like he did but darn he chills my blood...
...There's nothing to be ashamed of to say you didn't take up philosophy...I read sparingly on it yet your ideas you arrived by your own. A very remarkable accomplishment!!

johnstanp:there's a good point you made. That's very hard to be proven correct though jus like the early Neo points made here:all seem equally correct. Especially after i read this proposed script for M3 where Neo dies and we find out Popper was the One after all. Remember the programs even the Oracle never proclaimed Neo as the One even she said things like "you turned out fine after all" and "where you must go. where the path of the One ends." She never precisely connects Neo with the One-clever Wordplay!
And there's also another reason why I felt Neo made the choice to be the One:the same sublime reason that makes all reluctant heroes. As the Oracle said "you've already made the choice"...he made many small decisions along the way that subconsciously rose from the fact that deep down he believed he was significant...not the One maybe but ultimately it added up to that. Realising he should die instead of Morpheus and going against the odds to rescue him were some of those decisions. The Oracle's point is very clear:free will is seldom just about one final decision at one point:its the small decisions you make along the way that add up. You have to take one solid side in something to make all the decisions that add up till the end. Like say choosing Science in University because in the years you were in school you felt you should study more for science topics in this test, that exam...similarly you didn't pay that much attention to Economics or history...by the time you arrive at the point where you have to choose your subject you think there isn't a choice but the truth is you've always been making it! Cool huh? :D

johnstanp2; very interesting!!

and to all; does it really matter who is right or wrong? is there any such thing as right or wrong. To me it's interesting to hear your thoughts about things and WHY you think so. I mean the movie gives birth to many questions and what we think, even if it is "wrong" (not according to the plot in M3) could be much more relavant for us and our questions.

I would like to thank you all for taking time to share your thoughts. Rumi

To Curios
Hello Curios!
one reason that i cant give you answeres is that you, like many others are a very ego fixed person, just see how you react to my answeres, you become very defensieve, you take it very personal and defend your selv and your believe. why do i seem to be impossible to disscused with do you think? well because im not able to have a therotical mind oriented disscution as you guys do! you guys philisofies ( philosofie = failing - sofie ) all philisofies are doomed to faile, you see im not functioning in that way! these things you argue about is all mind stuff, they are fantasies and thoughts which are never near the truth, maybe dreamy or movie oriented but never real. what i know, i do know from personal experiences! what you believe in is from books, thoughts, movies, fantasies...... they are not real experiences. so how could i be able to talk to you in your terms? you are a resullt of your mind, im a resullt of my awareness and experiencess!
it is not my intention to explaine you guys as fools, but you are still persons with a very big ego ( just see how you defend your selv) i do not need to defend my selv or my knowledge, because ego is out of question for me. and believe it or not i can be of great help for you if you are truly a seeker, which i doubt you are. the only person that i have noticed could be good seeker here is mr Rumi, you can feel him working with his ego, which is the first stepp toward becoming a seeker. but as i said if you truly are a seeker and are ready to work with your ego then i can be of great help for you! not because i will show you the truth, no. but i can show you how to began. ( the truth will be your own experience )
so please do not feel angry at me and do not loose your hopp. because even a false biggening is still a biggening!
Im greatful that you are honest about your feelings, and are able to show who you are and how you feel so oppen, for this im thankful.

Originally posted by No mind
it is not my intention to explaine you guys as fools, but you are still persons with a very big ego ( just see how you defend your selv) i do not need to defend my selv or my knowledge, because ego is out of question for me.

(snip)

but as i said if you truly are a seeker and are ready to work with your ego then i can be of great help for you! not because i will show you the truth, no. but i can show you how to began. ( the truth will be your own experience )

Only those with an ego to feed would ever post to a board like this...


G.A.O.T.U.

Mr. aderson is the name given to neo in the matrix, but know that neo is unpluged from the matrix the name Mr. anderson just isn't used, it's not dead!!!!

Nice work! u are one of the few that was right about M3 among all stupid post here...:)

Originally posted by Terikan
except neo doesn't die in the third one. sorry.

Isn't it hilarious that you said that with such confidence, and then you were completely wrong?

Made me laugh for a minute.