The boy and the spoon

The crude, hammered spoon Neo is handed in Reloaded, in Zion...

Is this spoon related to the spoon bending incident at the Oracle's apartment in M1? Is it possible that the boy who bends spoons for Neo there has now (in Reloaded) escaped the Matrix?

Let's think about spoon boy. He was obviously close to Neo in ability, a candidate for being the One. In fact, he was more advanced than Neo at the time. Did he somehow escape the Matrix as Neo did, wake up in his pod and get rescued by the forces of Zion?

Nothing appears in this trilogy without a reason. I'm saying the spoons are almost certainly connected, and that spoon boy may play a role in M3. Why else would the WBros show us the spoon at all in M2?

Perhaps part of the way Neo saves Zion in M3 is to TEACH other Zionites how to wirelessly connect to the Source, as he did when he stopped the sentinels. If so, spoon boy would be a good candidate for first pupil. Will we see spoon boy in M3?

What do you think?

Well, obviously spoonboy was 'rescued' from the Matrix...that's who sent the gift in Zion.

I think you're a bi mistaken about the meaning of the gift, however. As Neo was leaving Zion to board the Neb again for his big miraculous journey into the Matrix where, according to the prophecy, he was supposed to meet the Architect and choose the door to the salvation of Zion, he recieved that gift of the spoon. Remember in the first movie when Neo was on top of the elevator with Trinity and he said to himself "There is no spoon" well that was sort of reminding himself that it was all possible and he was giving himself the inner energy and motivation to do it.

The same applies in Reloaded...in Zion, the pressure is on Neo and he is expected to be the big savior of the city, meanwhile ven he has doubts of whether or not he can do it. So the spoon is a little reminder that if he really wants to, he can do it. The spoon was just symbolism for the fact that it is not the spoon bending, but the energy and strength and focus and everything in yourself that makes it all happen.

I think that's really what the spoon was meant for. And I think it was a clever little way to remind people of the last movie.

Just some thoughts...

What does the spoon MEAN to Neo?

What's that key line...? Everyone now, "There is no spoon."

Right. That was true in the Matrix, but is it true in Zion, in the real world?

If you answer yes, then the crude spoon handed to Neo suggests that we may see him manipulating physical matter in the future, conquering physical matter as he did the Matrix. And this would suggest that the way he stopped the sentinels at the end of Reloaded was in fact a self-generated EMP pulse instead of a wireless hack into the Source to switch them off.

But why should we believe that physical matter can be manipulated like Matrix code? I buy Neo seeing Matrix code and interacting with it, taking over code objects and controlling them. It's even consistent that he's able to interact with Source code OUTSIDE the Matrix. It's a natural progression. But interacting with and manipulating physical matter? I don't buy it. My suspension of disbelief collapses there. I hope it doesn't turn out to be this way in M3. If so we're going to see Neo bending a lot of steel with his mind, Machine steel. I don't think so.

Finally, if you answered no to my earlier question, agreeing with me that "There is no spoon" is a true statement ONLY in the Matrix, then the battered spoon Neo is handed can only mean that either spoon boy sent it and will likely join him in M3, OR... that the spoon represents something else altogether, something presently unfathomable to me.

Ideas on what that something else might be?

Oh yeah I never answered your question about spoonboy in M3.

Well, it's a tough call but I don't we will ever see spoonboy like we did in M1, but there might be a reminder of him like in M2. Who knows...

Originally posted by Matrix.EXE
Well, obviously spoonboy was 'rescued' from the Matrix...that's who sent the gift in Zion.

I think you're a bi mistaken about the meaning of the gift, however. As Neo was leaving Zion to board the Neb again for his big miraculous journey into the Matrix where, according to the prophecy, he was supposed to meet the Architect and choose the door to the salvation of Zion, he recieved that gift of the spoon. Remember in the first movie when Neo was on top of the elevator with Trinity and he said to himself "There is no spoon" well that was sort of reminding himself that it was all possible and he was giving himself the inner energy and motivation to do it.

The same applies in Reloaded...in Zion, the pressure is on Neo and he is expected to be the big savior of the city, meanwhile ven he has doubts of whether or not he can do it. So the spoon is a little reminder that if he really wants to, he can do it. The spoon was just symbolism for the fact that it is not the spoon bending, but the energy and strength and focus and everything in yourself that makes it all happen.

I think that's really what the spoon was meant for. And I think it was a clever little way to remind people of the last movie.

Just some thoughts... You may be right. What you're saying is that the spoon represents courage for Neo. Maybe that's all there is to it.

I didn't recall the elevator scene until you mentioned it. That does suggest the spoon meant courage for Neo, because what he did next took courage, AND IT DID NOT REQUIRE HIM TO INTERACT WITH MATRIX CODE DIRECTLY, AS HE DID LATER, AT THE END OF M1. In other words, JUST courage, not code vision.

It's conceivable that it's both, that the elevator scene was courage and that later that kind of 'no spoon' courage transformed into the ability to see code directly.

Thanks for the reply:).

ok i got something to mention. The elevator scene took place in the real world, but i can't remember if the crude spoon was actually bent.

so if it was, then wouldn't that mean the real world is unreal? i hate the MIAM theory coz its too cheesy and predictable but this show might just be heading dat way. Coz there's no way the spoon boy could have bent a spoon in the real world!!!

The way I see it either the spoon means almost nothing or it means everything. Either it was just a "hey, good luck today, you know you can do anything in the matrix" or it was hey look at this spoon that I bent to ****, there really is no spoon even here in Zion. Or else the spoon was just crudely made. But you do hafta wonder if he thought about the spoon right before the sentinels at the end.

Originally posted by StUdMeIsTeR
ok i got something to mention. The elevator scene took place in the real world, but i can't remember if the crude spoon was actually bent.

so if it was, then wouldn't that mean the real world is unreal? i hate the MIAM theory coz its too cheesy and predictable but this show might just be heading dat way. Coz there's no way the spoon boy could have bent a spoon in the real world!!! I just saw again Reloaded yesterday (3rd time) and paid particular attention to the spoon. It was obviously hammered into shape, but it wasn't bent. Good for those of us who can't buy bending spoons with the mind in real life. Suspension of disbelief ends when the movie becomes a cartoon -- like all the others out now. What makes the Matrix trilogy superior is its foundation in REALITY. Thanks for commenting.

Originally posted by Whatisreal
The way I see it either the spoon means almost nothing or it means everything. Either it was just a "hey, good luck today, you know you can do anything in the matrix" or it was hey look at this spoon that I bent to ****, there really is no spoon even here in Zion. Or else the spoon was just crudely made. But you do hafta wonder if he thought about the spoon right before the sentinels at the end. It SEEMS to mean almost nothing or everything, but there is a third possibility that I've put forth here, which is that Neo is going to be JOINED by Spoony Spoon Mcspoon in M3 (to help him defeat the Machines), that Neo will teach spoony and others to access the Source wirelessly and shut down the attacking sentinels.

In any event, the spoon a pretty important symbol to consider. Thanks for posting:).

Apart from the first visit in the training area and that jump this is the real first thing that Neo has belived he can do. By bending the spoon he has started to unlock the door to the one. It is like taking your first step.

Well there's always someone who posts something totally unrelated and meaningless so I guess I'll be that guy for now. If anyone is interested in cars or just random trivia, every vehicle in Reloaded is a GM car- Cadillacs, Buicks, GMCs, Chevys, Oldsmobiles. And then in the median, there is a road crew truck that is a Ford, very conspicuous. THEN, you can tell when it is animated (during Trinity and Keymaker on the Ducati crotchrocket) because there are suddenly all sorts of cars, not just GMs. Random fact of the day.

Listen, the spoon is a sense of incouragment to neo, saying remember, when your in the matrix, there is no spoon. Giving neo encouragment about being the one and doing all that he is able to do. it dosen't mean anything more than that.

Smith shows up in an Audi right at the beginning of the movie man.

The Spoon is supposed to be Neo.

In M1, there are 5 deformed spoons on the ground. I'm assuming they represent the 5 former "Ones." Neo and the 6th spoon bend together (to our right when viewing the movie screen), and it isn't crooked, bent and disfigured like the other "corrupted" spoons. Perhaps, the deformed spoons represent the "Ones" who made the wrong choice in doors? Maybe Merovingian is one of those spoons??

And why "is there no spoon?" In M1, as I read somewhere else, the crew is using the "spork" to eat their meal on the Nebuchadnezzar. In any regular meal, we use forks and spoons to eat. Perhaps the fork and spoon combined represent something?

Just brainstorming..perhaps someone can get something from all this jargon.

Originally posted by Gnosis
The Spoon is supposed to be Neo.

In M1, there are 5 deformed spoons on the ground. I'm assuming they represent the 5 former "Ones." Neo and the 6th spoon bend together (to our right when viewing the movie screen), and it isn't crooked, bent and disfigured like the other "corrupted" spoons. Perhaps, the deformed spoons represent the "Ones" who made the wrong choice in doors? Maybe Merovingian is one of those spoons??

And why "is there no spoon?" In M1, as I read somewhere else, the crew is using the "spork" to eat their meal on the Nebuchadnezzar. In any regular meal, we use forks and spoons to eat. Perhaps the fork and spoon combined represent something?

Just brainstorming..perhaps someone can get something from all this jargon. The five twisted spoons representing former Ones is an interesting concept, and I can imagine the WBros using something like this... You base the theory on an assumption that the spoon itself represents Neo. Then you go on to make the spork comment and lose me completely. Nonetheless, You got me thinking about the spoon representing Neo himself. Does it? Let's look at the evidence. Here's a dialogue transcript from the movie:

Spoon boy: Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth.

Neo: What truth?

Spoon boy: There is no spoon.

Neo: There is no spoon?

Spoon boy: Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself.

And this excerpt from an early script:

A skinny BOY holds a SPOON which sways like a blade of grass as he bends it with his rnind. Neo crosses to him, sits. The Boy smiles as Neo picks up a spoon and tries to imitate him. Despite his best efforts, Neo cannot make it bend.

SPOON BOY: Your spoon does not bend because it is just that, a spoon. Mine bends because there is no spoon, just my mind.

Neo watches as it curls into a knot.

SPOON BOY: Link yourself to the spoon. Become the spoon and bend yourself.

Neo nods, again holding up his spoon.

NEO: There is no spoon. Right.

He concentrates. The spoon begins to bend...

In Eastern mysticism, enlightenment comes with the realization that your self does not exist. In Zen it's called, no mind. The spoon then, from a higher perspective, represents Neo's self, and he one who has achieved enlightenment, or is at least in the process of achieving it.

The new man, Neo, the One. Is he enlightened, and therefore conscious of the fact that there is no self, no spoon? Yes, it makes sense.

My only refinement of your theory is that the spoon does not represent Neo as 'The One', it refers instead to his SELF, ie, that which is illusory. Do you see the difference? Neo's self is like a skin he sheds. The real living enlightened being that Neo is in the moment, beyond time, is not the spoon, it's the thing that bends.

Provocative concept. Thanks.

Just gonna cast my quick vote to the idea that the spoon is nothing more than a msg to Neo that spoon boy is free, and a little motivational msg....mostly probably meaning "hey, remember me, I got out too" . Remember, Neo is the salvation of a lot of people from the matrix as Morpheus said, and Neo through the whole movie hasn't known what to do about all the hope and faith in him sent his way. It's one thing to be reminded you are the one by a bunch of nameless people you have no real connection to, and another by someone who, without any intent or wish of their own, helped you along the path. My guess is, something had to stop Bane from killing Neo, that something was the spoon, and the signifigance of that scene is present only in the scene itself, and will appear absolutely NOWHERE in Revolutions with any deeper signifigance.

Originally posted by Eschamo
In Eastern mysticism, enlightenment comes with the realization that your self does not exist. In Zen it's called, no mind. The spoon then, from a higher perspective, represents Neo's self, and he one who has achieved enlightenment, or is at least in the process of achieving it.

The new man, Neo, the One. Is he enlightened, and therefore conscious of the fact that there is no self, no spoon? Yes, it makes sense.

My only refinement of your theory is that the spoon does not represent Neo as 'The One', it refers instead to his SELF, ie, that which is illusory. Do you see the difference? Neo's self is like a skin he sheds. The real living enlightened being that Neo is in the moment, beyond time, is not the spoon, it's the thing that bends.

Provocative concept. Thanks.

I agree with you, and thank you for clarifying this. The W Bros are no strangers to the works of Herman Hesse (Siddartha included), eastern and buddhist philosophy..Cornel West, world-renowned professor at Harvard University who makes a cameo in M2, went so far as to say that they are far more versed in Hesse than he is!

Now as I understand it, it's commonly believed by many buddhists that Neo's abilities in the Matrix can be acheived here in the real world. Although it sounds far fetched to most, the power of the enlightened mind can accomplish such feats as 1) time travel, 2) dialogue with other species outside of humanity (animal or alien), 3) walking on water, 4) turning water into wine, etc. etc.. I think you get the point. The most important thing here to note is that the enlightened mind stops the process of reincarnation, which essential to acheiving a divine state emancipated from the evils and attachments of worldly existence.

(For the record, my father was raised in Ceylon (Sri Lanka) as a Theravada Buddhist)

Regardless, the fact that there are 5 spoons next to the kneeling boy in M1 and a 6th spoon (Neo's "Self") is unlikely just a coincidence. The W Bros are too calculative with numbers and symbolism in the movie to reduce the importance of these spoon scenes to be mere motivational tools to help Neo along his path, although that obviously is part of their intent.

Originally posted by Whatisreal
Well there's always someone who posts something totally unrelated and meaningless so I guess I'll be that guy for now. If anyone is interested in cars or just random trivia, every vehicle in Reloaded is a GM car- Cadillacs, Buicks, GMCs, Chevys, Oldsmobiles. And then in the median, there is a road crew truck that is a Ford, very conspicuous. THEN, you can tell when it is animated (during Trinity and Keymaker on the Ducati crotchrocket) because there are suddenly all sorts of cars, not just GMs. Random fact of the day.



I'd cynically suggest that GM paid Warner Bros. more dough for product placement..

More dough...more placings.

Originally posted by Gnosis

Regardless, the fact that there are 5 spoons next to the kneeling boy in M1 and a 6th spoon (Neo's "Self") is unlikely just a coincidence. The W Bros are too calculative with numbers and symbolism in the movie to reduce the importance of these spoon scenes to be mere motivational tools to help Neo along his path, although that obviously is part of their intent. [/B]


gah...this further winds me up that there was a RIDICULOUS 4 year gap between M1 and M2.. ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH

Well that is why I have no problem waiting till November. And I am positive GM paid the W's loads for that product placement, it was no accident. About the spoon, its obviously hard to say either way, but its an interesting concept, and I think its becoming clearer all the time that there are few if any simple coincidences in this movie. Even if they didn't think about it all too much, if they just grabbed a handful of spoons for the scene, why the hell not five and give it some more meaning. Or maybe they did think about it. But I don't think anyone can really just say oh it means nothing, so I think Rodion you might wanna ease off the confidence level there. Clearly the W's are fans of surprises in the form of the Architect, so for all we know spoony boy could be Neo's protege or fighting partner or the real One! These threads are all about speculation anyway, surely not solid fact cause who the h*** knows anyway.

I'll admit to being a bit on the confident side, which I don't have a problem with, cause confidence is fun. If I turn out to be wrong, I turn out to be wrong, so long as I'm entertained, I don't mind. However, I'll say that there are, yes, A TON of little details in the films that accentuate and add depth and texture to the body of the story. The thing is, I haven't seen the story arc directly affected by a minute detail once that I can think of. The story arc is told in larger strokes and in the more prominent scenes, while the details like how many spoons, the number of Neo's apt, the guy in the restaurant etc. etc. etc., are there to flesh out the major revelations, not reveal or direct them. So when it comes to the details, they appear to be just that, details, not huge revealing eye opening new factors. So, when looking at the details, I tend to go along the lines of "what is this supporting, what does this back up?", not "what new direction could this revea?l", as the W's haven't once done the latter through a minor detail. The spoon could end up with a deeper signifigance from a revelation in Revolutions (I just love the sound of that), but I think, since it's been stated that the sequels are one long movie split in two, that we've already gotten our big mindblowing revelation with the architect's speech, and that Revolutions will be the unravleing and wrapping up of all the questions posed in the first two, but without any big new questions thrown in. It's the answer to what we've already seen that Revolutions, being the last in the trilogy, will be responsible for, not new questions needing new answers in a wholly seperate film.

somebody answer these two questions.



1: Why is Spoonboy bald. Is he on chemo ?...
2: Why didn't they get a better take from him. He was crap.
( I know he was a little kid but come on ! )

!) Spoon boy is bald becaue being bald means you are mystical, poweful, and wise. I know this because I have a shaved head.

2)They didn't get a better take cause they didn't want him upstaging Keanu Reeves. What kind of movie has the hero ouperformed by a 9 year old, I mean besides the sixth sense.

Lol Rodion

After reading this thread i have cum up with my own presumption whether it is right or not we will have to w8 and see

If we go along with " the matrix in a matrix" theory we could see the spoon boy being a program that works in the matrix and Zion as Neo's spirit

The five spoons resemble the other "ones" that he has failed with so with that has been programmed as a child to show a insignificance to the film's plot, when it does the opposite

It gives him the courage needed at the right times in M1 it is when he is about to be told whther he is the one or not, and as Morpheus says " The Oracle told you what u needed to hear" maybe the spoon boy is a small program that works in conjuction with the Oracle itself

In M2 it cums up near the second Oracle scene and the battle scene with the thousands of Smiths, maybe it is spirit trapped in a program trying to get out or it is the Architect's little games that he has planned all along, and in M3 they may join to defeat the Sentinels, Smith, Agents and the Matrix itself

Just a thought
:D

:o I believe the M in M theroy because if the robots made a matrix the was soposedly the real world then they would have to put a matrix in a matrix because theres a matrix in the real world.

Whoa! I'm confusing myself. :D

Originally posted by Neo&Meo
:o I believe the M in M theroy because if the robots made a matrix the was soposedly the real world then they would have to put a matrix in a matrix because theres a matrix in the real world.

Whoa! I'm confusing myself. :D



huh ?

The machines tried to make the matrix as real as possible. The real world had a matrix in it, so if the matrix was to be like the real world it had to have a matrix in it.

The machines are definitely trying to make the matrix as much like the real world as possible, but since they're obviously very keen on not letting people KNOW it's a matrix, they're probably smart enough to leave that little detail out of picture.

Maybe, but i'm still sticking with m in m.

it's not a moral debate, so it's okay to be wrong.

:D

The following definition is from Principia Cybernetica, http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/OCCAMRAZ.html:

Occam's razor is a logical principle attributed to the mediaeval philosopher William of Occam. The principle states that one should not make more assumptions than the minimum needed. It underlies all scientific modelling and theory building, admonishing us to choose from a set of otherwise equivalent models of a given phenomenon... THE SIMPLEST ONE. In any given model, Occam's razor helps us to "shave off" those concepts, variables or constructs that are not really needed to explain the phenomenon. By doing that, developing the model will become much easier, and there is less chance of introducing inconsistencies, ambiguities and redundancies.

The second Matrix (ie, the one supposedly inside the Matrix) is unnecessary to a comprehensive theory of this trilogy. There is the real world dominated by the Machines, and Zion is part of that world. The Machines allow Zion to exist to produce Neo, the ultimate embodiment of the Anomaly. They do this in order to study the Anomaly so as to defeat it.

The Anomaly is the only thing preventing the Machines from perfecting their power system of humans-in-pods. The Matrix was necessary to occupy human minds, but then they discovered that choice was necessary in order for people to accept the program. But choice allowed in the Anomaly... Zion/Neo is a tool designed by the Machines to study and defeat it.

In short, no secondary, nested Matrix is necessary to understand this story and, accordingly, by Occam's razor, any theory requiring one should be discarded.

I still stipulate that no one should be surprised to be...surprised, because of the Architect. I would be disappointed if I'm not surprised again, that's all I'm saying, MinM or no. And that O guy's theory is only good for getting at the easiest solution at the time, not necessarily the true one. People used to think the world was flat cause hey, look at it! Yes, MinM is pure speculation, but I don't think it can be disproved or totally argued against. Nor for. Hell I think the sheer posibility is an exciting idea anyway, so I dunno why people are so cynical about it or adamantly against it.

I'll tell u whether the spoon boy has anything to do with m3 and what happens....

Give me time though, i'll have the answer bout November time :D

Originally posted by Whatisreal
IYes, MinM is pure speculation, but I don't think it can be disproved or totally argued against. Nor for. Hell I think the sheer posibility is an exciting idea anyway, so I dunno why people are so cynical about it or adamantly against it. The thing is, why waste time when you can zero in on the truth?

MIAM is exciting like spinning in circles was when you were a kid. Eventually you got tired and started looking for more rewarding stimuli. If you keep noodling this movie, eventually you're gonna get tired of spinning in MIAM. The choice of when is yours, but just thinking about it makes me dizzy:).