Final solution...

My theories as I have collected them so far...sorry that this got so long...

1. The oracle knew Neo wasn't sleeping well - even if it was in Zion. Neo stopped the sentinels. Smith could be in Bane ->
Zion is part of the Matrix or atleast controlled/monitored by someone who is also controlling Matrix...

2. The agents wanted to get access to the mainframe of Zion in M1, pretty much the same as "our guys" were doing in the second ->
the bad guys in Matrix can not control Zion - but it may seem as Zion is some kind of Matrix.

3. Neo dreams about the future until a difficult choice has to be made ->
He can either read ahead of the code in the matrix, or this has happened before and the path - but not the choice - is still within him.

4. The oracle looks at Neo and says, "you came out real good didn't you". After Neo had told about his dream the oracle said he had made a believer of her. ->
Seems as the oracle had seen Neo earlier and was happy of the development, and that this time - for the first time she also believed he would make the right choice.

5. The Architect talked about the "One's" before Neo and their design, observed and commented on Neo's irrationality that would lead to his choice as if it was expected. ->
Neo either is a program or at least have been "programmed" - could be the same kind of brainwash/learning that he went through on Neb when he learned Kung-Fu etc...

6. Merovingian states that there is no free choice. Choice is an illusion created by those with power for those without. ->
People in Zion think they have chosen to be free, but instead they are fooled to believe so - so that the matrix can continue uninterrupted.

7. The Architect says in the end: "Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed, and the anomaly revealed as both beginning, and end" ->
Seems as the fundamental flaw is that the One would chose what he thought would be a safe, although difficult way to save the human race...rather than risking it all for the love of another human.

8. In M1 Morpheus tells that the war with the machines started sometime after the beginning of the 21st century, and that he believed they were today around 2199. He said that when the Matrix was first built there was "a man born inside who had the ability to change whatever he wanted, to remake the Matrix as he saw fit. It was he who freed the first of us, taught us the truth. As long as the Matrix exists the human race will never be free. After he died the Oracle prophesied his return and that his coming would hail the destruction of the Matrix and the war, bring freedom to our people." ->
A man from the beginning of Matrix freed Morph - Morph freed Neo -> Either Matrix is not very old, or time/aging does not take place as normal, or Morph is either lying or mistaking about the age of Matrix. And Matrix according to Morph is max 150 - 190 years old...

9. The Architect tells Neo the Matrix has been restarted 5 times before, each time with Zion being rebuilt by a selected 16 + 7 people from Matrix (possibly plus the one himself). ->
Either the Architect lied - which is a bit unlikely as the whole sceen with him would then be a total waste of time - or the Matrix starts with the people in it having a pre-programmed memory of the past, so they don't notice that it's just starting (again).
What about Zion - I am launching my wildest theory now - but what if the 16 and 7 is just the propotion of women/men quota? What if they were actually 160 000 and 70 000? 230 000 and remember they have only been there for less than 30 years each time...

Conclusion - Both Matrix and Zion is controlled by the makers of the Matrix - but they have to feel chased and threatened to appreaciate their living conditions and not dare save too many out of the Matrix. It also strengthens their will to commit to their "choice" of living outside the matrix.

Either:
1)
I think the Matrix has cycled 6 times with a lifespan of approximately 30 years at a time. Neo's age could show that he is born at the same time as the beginning of the last. Morph was probably born before but got his memory reset, just like all the other Matrix "inhabitants" as the Matrix was restarted, thus he thinks that the Matrix older that it is, and that a man born at the beginning of the Matrix freed him. Like Neo said: "Either no one told me, or no one knows".
Neo received programming of his brain while pod'ed - to continue/repeat what the previous "One's" have done. But with small changes each time to fine tune his feeling of love.
Why? This still nags me, but maybe its so simple that:
a) He can then reunite Matrix and Zion and again restore the intended balance of harmony inside Matrix? He has the power to give life and take life, but he is not blinded by his own abilities because he is always lead by love. A genuine feeling for the what is best.
b) Or there never was a war, or at least the winner was not the machines. All of matrix and zion is in fact not humans at all. It's just a big test of AI - created *by* humans. The real humans came to understand that their perfect definition of AI had flaws, causing the machines to preserve their "own" race as a whole. Now the humans are trying to perfect the AI to feel love, which would make them completely human, and no longer dangerous to the human race.
Love and hope must guide even as they get unlimited power...

or

2)
The Matrix has cycled even faster - and most people have been there from the start, just that their memory has been reset at each start. Neo could have been the previous ones too, if we assume a 1 year or less lifespan per Matrix. The rest is the same as in my theory 1...


Thanks for being with me this long - looking forward to your comments!

Most of those ideas seemed a bit out of agreement with what I remember from the movies, but good thoughts anyway.

I really like your thought that perhaps all the humans in the Matrix are actually AI, and it is all just a simulation run by humans to perfect AI. This is, so far, about the only route to a true explanation of everything we've seen. Besides, it would be such an insanely cool plot twist.

Alas, I doubt the bros. would take that route. All the animatrix background information would then be... what, just a big lie to keep us misinformed? As great of a movie as that would make, sadly I don't think we'll see it. :(

Originally posted by Xirtameht
Most of those ideas seemed a bit out of agreement with what I remember from the movies, but good thoughts anyway.

I really like your thought that perhaps all the humans in the Matrix are actually AI, and it is all just a simulation run by humans to perfect AI. This is, so far, about the only route to a true explanation of everything we've seen. Besides, it would be such an insanely cool plot twist.

Alas, I doubt the bros. would take that route. All the animatrix background information would then be... what, just a big lie to keep us misinformed? As great of a movie as that would make, sadly I don't think we'll see it. :(

I definetely need to see the animatrix...But all I have quoted/described from these movies are correct, my interpretation on the other hand is of course discussable...

I've been reading the Architect-Neo dialogue many times but nowhere I've found that he told that the MATRIX is actually restarted or is looping.
What is for u the true meaning of this:"the function of the One is to return to the Source allowing a TEMPORARY DISSEMENATION of the CODE u carry REINSERTING the PRIME PROGRAM...."That, if we assume the Architect is not lying,is the real "function" of NEO.
Is the MATRIX restarted???OR is it safier to say upgraded?
I insist nowhere it's said that the Matrix restarts.And the only people to know the existence of the Matrix live outside the Matrix so there's no need to reset the memory of the people inside of it if the Matrix was suposed to ever restart.

Thank you for your very good comment!
You are correct - the architect does not say that directly - my interpretation is built on what you have pointed out already and the fact that he in the beginning talks of the "monumental failure" of the first matrix version, after which there has been 5 other versions. He also said that the second was redesigned before it too failed. I assume these "redesigns" can be viewed as restarts, but for my theory, it is not important if it is a redesign or a restart, the memories of the "inhabitants" AND any "outsiders" must somehow be wiped and reloaded anyway.

ooo thanks
you madfe me realise something

when morpheus says "it was him that freed the first of us" he is refering to the past "one" that freed him and the other 22 people to rebuild zion :)

Another thing.Did the Oracle knew Neo's dream?
Remember she told Neo to tell her what he has seen in his dream.
Thus she didn't knew what Neo's dream was excatly.She even insisted if he saw Trinity dying.She only knew that like the previous Ones,Neo had problems to sleep because of the forseeing gift.Cause I don't think that they each shares the exact same dream,cause I guess each "One" had a different experience.So she know why Neo can't sleep but not precisely that is not sleeping:there's a great difference on knowing a fact and on knowing a reason.
If u're right even Smith should know that Neo can't sleep,or the Merovingian,etc.

Originally posted by johnstanp2
I've been reading the Architect-Neo dialogue many times but nowhere I've found that he told that the MATRIX is actually restarted or is looping.
What is for u the true meaning of this:"the function of the One is to return to the Source allowing a TEMPORARY DISSEMENATION of the CODE u carry REINSERTING the PRIME PROGRAM...."That, if we assume the Architect is not lying,is the real "function" of NEO.
Is the MATRIX restarted???OR is it safier to say upgraded?
I insist nowhere it's said that the Matrix restarts.And the only people to know the existence of the Matrix live outside the Matrix so there's no need to reset the memory of the people inside of it if the Matrix was suposed to ever restart.

I think that thats a very good point, so are you suggesting there is a Matrix within another Matrix?

Originally posted by johnstanp2
I've been reading the Architect-Neo dialogue many times but nowhere I've found that he told that the MATRIX is actually restarted or is looping.
What is for u the true meaning of this:"the function of the One is to return to the Source allowing a TEMPORARY DISSEMENATION of the CODE u carry REINSERTING the PRIME PROGRAM...."That, if we assume the Architect is not lying,is the real "function" of NEO.
Is the MATRIX restarted???OR is it safier to say upgraded?
I insist nowhere it's said that the Matrix restarts.And the only people to know the existence of the Matrix live outside the Matrix so there's no need to reset the memory of the people inside of it if the Matrix was suposed to ever restart.

Let me also add that the memories of those inside the matrix would surely need to be wiped/reloaded or they would probably remember the monumental failures of the versions...surely the effects of those must have been visible. Remember that it was the "humans" in the matrix that caused the failure - in what should have been the perfect place of peace and harmony...

I've just read your post.
We agree the Matrix is a program.
First question do we know exactly what happened to the humans plugged in when the Matrix failed?What exactly is a Matrix failure???
When a program fails,u can rewrite it.So,if the Matrix fails this time,that would mean nothing since humans(of Zion) will still have to defeat machines.Cause if they don't,the machines will rewrite another version more efficient than the previous one and on and on.So in this case,there's no loop or restart of the Matrix.The only loop will be war between Men and Machines,enslavement and freedom.
But men need machines and machines need men.They are condamned to live together:that is a think the "Morality" of the story.
I personally think that developing the story of a Matrix controlling everything till the rebels is an easy suite to the story and is far less harder than a one were men really fights for their freedom against machines.

Originally posted by johnstanp2
Another thing.Did the Oracle knew Neo's dream?
Remember she told Neo to tell her what he has seen in his dream.
Thus she didn't knew what Neo's dream was excatly.She even insisted if he saw Trinity dying.She only knew that like the previous Ones,Neo had problems to sleep because of the forseeing gift.Cause I don't think that they each shares the exact same dream,cause I guess each "One" had a different experience.So she know why Neo can't sleep but not precisely that is not sleeping:there's a great difference on knowing a fact and on knowing a reason.
If u're right even Smith should know that Neo can't sleep,or the Merovingian,etc.

Last things first. Mero or Smith or anyone else does not know Neo's dreams - why should they. They are programs with other purposes and need not receive information of those things.
The Oracle knew that Neo had seen the door to the mainframe in his dreams before Neo telling. It seems to me she also knew about Trinity falling - even though it is not said directly. At least she knew there would be a life threatening situation - and that this would be the key to Neo's choice.
She says Neo has already made the choice now he must understand why. ->Neo must understand that he is feeling genuine love, and why would that be such a big deal if he was human?!

Just another reflexion before going.
When u reboot your computer do u still need to reinstall Microsoft explorer to read your mails?Programs are not killed when u restart your computer but only your RAM memory is killed.So when you reboot your PC,your RAM memory is already cleared.So u don't need clearing it.
RAM memory is used to run a program(a simulation too),but programs are saved on a different part of your computer,ROM memory.So the effect for the simulation are different from those of the programs when you shut off your computer.
Another question do people in the Matrix can notice a change in the Matrix.Can they feel when Agents are upgrated or when the Matrix is hacked?No,so how would they notice an upgrade of the Matrix or even a change?
Is the Oracle a program wrote by the Matrix?Or is it also some kind of virus escaping from the control of it?

That is why the restarting or rebooting stuff sounds lacking some sense since rebooting a System never kills a program but only cause the loss of some information.

Originally posted by johnstanp2
Just another reflexion before going.
When u reboot your computer do u still need to reinstall Microsoft explorer to read your mails?Programs are not killed when u restart your computer but only your RAM memory is killed.So when you reboot your PC,your RAM memory is already cleared.So u don't need clearing it.
RAM memory is used to run a program(a simulation too),but programs are saved on a different part of your computer,ROM memory.So the effect for the simulation are different from those of the programs when you shut off your computer.
Another question do people in the Matrix can notice a change in the Matrix.Can they feel when Agents are upgrated or when the Matrix is hacked?No,so how would they notice an upgrade of the Matrix or even a change?
Is the Oracle a program wrote by the Matrix?Or is it also some kind of virus escaping from the control of it?

Ok, I may have misunderstood you previously but now I believe we agree. At least I agree with you :)
Either the memory "RAM" is wiped automatically or manually, my point is that the programs would not have any recollection of previous versions of the matrix. No logfiles. Which also means that a program would repeat from the beginning its task until the next shutdown - unless you have tweaked it a bit in the meantime... I didn't mean that the programs needed to reinstalled, at least not all - but the important ones could very well be reloaded to start in their updated version.

Originally posted by johnstanp2
That is why the restarting or rebooting stuff sounds lacking some sense since rebooting a System never kills a program but only cause the loss of some information.

IMO it doesn't have to kill the programs in the matrix, all programs should continue as before, just start from the beginning- except for some parameters and features that needed tweaking...It's like when you beta test - you run the program - find some bugs, fix them, run the program again - exactly as the first time to see if the same bugs or new bugs appear - fix them and restart etc...

Neo6th.

That's not what i wanted to say.If there's another Matrix inside the Matrix then Zion is no threat at all,since being in a Matrix means that your under control.
And that's not what the Architect seemed to say.
If there's another Matrix why simulating the Fall of Zion?And after restarting it?If there's another Matrix in the Matrix,so all that **** is just a game of a very perveted mind and the realisators are kidding us.
There are so many people giving such theories that they will look like very stupid on November.
But something looked very strange when I watch the Revolutions Trailer:Morpheus was looking at Neo saying "He's going to fight for us." as if it was a surprise.That gives me thoughts that Neo is not supposed to fight for humans and that he may be part machine or human programmed,or some tricky **** like that.

Liondale.There's still one point that remains dark.What have happened to the people in the previous Matrixes when it failed?

We don't know that morpheus is looking at neo, or speaking about him. It cuts from scene to scene.

Liondale.There's still one point that remains dark.What have happened to the people in the previous Matrixes when it failed?

entire crops were lost, that means they died. some were saved though, and used to repopulate the next matrixes.

Originally posted by liondale
[B]1. The oracle knew Neo wasn't sleeping well - even if it was in Zion. Neo stopped the sentinels. Smith could be in Bane ->
Zion is part of the Matrix or atleast controlled/monitored by someone who is also controlling Matrix...This is obviously the case, according to the Architect. "this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it. And we have become exceedingly efficient at it."

2. The agents wanted to get access to the mainframe of Zion in M1, pretty much the same as "our guys" were doing in the second ->
the bad guys in Matrix can not control Zion - but it may seem as Zion is some kind of Matrix.This is the missing link that will drive us to see M3. The agents seem to act contrary to the Architect by wanting to destroy Zion independently.

3. Neo dreams about the future until a difficult choice has to be made ->
He can either read ahead of the code in the matrix, or this has happened before and the path - but not the choice - is still within him.We have a clue from the Oracle dialog. Bare with me here.

Oracle: "Candy?"
Neo: "You already know if I’m going to take it."
Oracle: "I wouldn’t be much of an Oracle if I didn’t."
Neo: "But, if you already know, how can I make a choice?"
Oracle: "Because you didn’t come here to make a choice. You’ve already made it. You’re here to try to understand why you’ve made it. "
*Neo takes candy*
...
Neo: "Why are you here?"
Oracle: "Same reason. I love candy."
~~~ Fast-forward toward end of dialog... ~~~
Neo: "Are you saying I have to choose whether Trinity lives or dies?
Oracle: "No, you’ve already made the choice. Now you have to understand it."
~~~ Neo chooses Trinity because he loves her, no different than when the Oracle says she loves candy - thus the "why" ~~~


4. The oracle looks at Neo and says, "you came out real good didn't you". After Neo had told about his dream the oracle said he had made a believer of her. ->
Seems as the oracle had seen Neo earlier and was happy of the development, and that this time - for the first time she also believed he would make the right choice.Yes she's affirming his path. Nothing more really.

5. The Architect talked about the "One's" before Neo and their design, observed and commented on Neo's irrationality that would lead to his choice as if it was expected. ->
Neo either is a program or at least have been "programmed" - could be the same kind of brainwash/learning that he went through on Neb when he learned Kung-Fu etc...Yes, this is another big mystery. Couple it with the fact that on numerous occasions in M2 we hear characters say (paraphrasing): "He's still human."

6. Merovingian states that there is no free choice. Choice is an illusion created by those with power for those without. ->
People in Zion think they have chosen to be free, but instead they are fooled to believe so - so that the matrix can continue uninterrupted.Yep.

7. The Architect says in the end: "Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed, and the anomaly revealed as both beginning, and end" ->
Seems as the fundamental flaw is that the One would chose what he thought would be a safe, although difficult way to save the human race...rather than risking it all for the love of another human.I think the choice is rigged for the preservation of the Matrix. Either choice will work as long as the anomoly is disseminated. We don't know enough yet. The Architect is emotionless as always, when Neo picks the left door. Tough call - too soon.

8. In M1 Morpheus tells that the war with the machines started sometime after the beginning of the 21st century, and that he believed they were today around 2199. He said that when the Matrix was first built there was "a man born inside who had the ability to change whatever he wanted, to remake the Matrix as he saw fit. It was he who freed the first of us, taught us the truth. As long as the Matrix exists the human race will never be free. After he died the Oracle prophesied his return and that his coming would hail the destruction of the Matrix and the war, bring freedom to our people." ->
A man from the beginning of Matrix freed Morph - Morph freed Neo -> Either Matrix is not very old, or time/aging does not take place as normal, or Morph is either lying or mistaking about the age of Matrix. And Matrix according to Morph is max 150 - 190 years old...Morpheus did NOT state that the previous One freed him specifically. He says "It was he who freed the first of us." This is an historical statement that doesn't necessarily apply to Morpheus first-hand.

9.I'll let you dangle on that one all by yourself :)

Conclusion - Both Matrix and Zion is controlled by the makers of the Matrix. Yes. It's obvious. Whether Zion is another illusion, or an actual place destined for destruction, it is under control of the machines.

Morpheus' speech in Zion plainly states "For 100 years we have fought this war..." yet Zion has been destroyed 5 times previously, and the Nebuchadnezzar's manufacture date is 2069. Too many holes in the storyline to draw ANY conclusions yet liondale. We need to wait until M3. Good post though :)

zion is neither in a matrix or under the control of the machines.

I think it is an act of desperation, as morpheus said. It's a backup plan. It all makes sense.

Smith needed the access codes to zions mainframe, so when the time came, they could easily destroy zion as they had before. But morpheus did not give up the codes, so they had to start drilling.

Terikan it's ok to believe that as long as you ignore the Architect's words:

"You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed. It’s every living inhabitant terminated. It’s entire existence eradicated." ... "But rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it. And we have become exceedingly efficient at it."

That, my friend, is control, and that's what liondale is talking about.

"You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed. It’s every living inhabitant terminated. It’s entire existence eradicated." ... "But rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it. And we have become exceedingly efficient at it."

My idea is completely compatible with this. Zion is about to be destroyed. The counter attack planned by locke was foiled by this time, so the architect knew he would get through now.

By efficient, he probably just means able to do the most damage with least amount of power used. That's what that word usually means you know.

They've done it six times, so what. Doesn't mean they won't get their arse handed to them on the seventh.

Originally posted by johnstanp2
Neo6th.

...If there's another Matrix why simulating the Fall of Zion?And after restarting it?If there's another Matrix in the Matrix,so all that **** is just a game of a very perveted mind and the realisators are kidding us.
There are so many people giving such theories that they will look like very stupid on November.
But something looked very strange when I watch the Revolutions Trailer:Morpheus was looking at Neo saying "He's going to fight for us." as if it was a surprise.That gives me thoughts that Neo is not supposed to fight for humans and that he may be part machine or human programmed,or some tricky **** like that.

dFirst of all, I don't understand how giving a radical theory makes anyone look stupid. The point with launching theories is *NOT* to claim ownership of a universal truth, but rather to open for creative thinking with different opinions at a topic. I find it most interesting and I always learn something new.

Your other comments: The purpose of Zion, regardless of it being "free and real" or part of a matrix, is - as I think is very clarely brought forward in the movies - to have a place to store those rejecting the original matrix. If they have escaped there by themselves or they have been tricked into believing so is the question.

Neo could be the ultimate and final solution of AI that will fight for humans, and not chose to preserve his own "race"...

What happened to the people connected to the matrix each time it was restarted?....Why would something happen to them? Their minds are simply reloaded with new data and they start over again. Crops being lost - could refer to the "humans" in the matrix killing off each other in wars etc, before the architect had to redesign and reload the next version of matrix.

Originally posted by EtaPhase

Morpheus did NOT state that the previous One freed him specifically. He says "It was he who freed the first of us." This is an historical statement that doesn't necessarily apply to Morpheus first-hand.


dYou are correct!
In any case as you point out afterwards, it does not change the fact that the timeframes discussed must be wrong.

two things

1) if zion is a backup plan than you will not need it if neo makes the "right" choice.
as i see it neo has 2 choices 1)going for the saving of zion (and destorying the matrix in m3 or 2) saving the matrix and letting zion be destroyed.

the machines know this because zion is also part of the matrix
they dont care wich way the story goes as long as it keeps going

so if neo chooses the matrix they setup zion for a restart (23 people ,16 male, 7 female) if neo choses zion than the matrix will be desroyed but they keep zion and grow that to the same size.
(we are prepared to exept certain losses!!)

this also means that we dont know why the machines (if we are being controled by machines) are controlling us, because the batary sory is part of the zion simulation

2) if you take 23 pleople (16 male, 7 female) who long does it take to get from 23 to 250.000 people (the amount of people in zion.
now take that amount of time and then think about doing it 6X
all this would take 1500 to 2000 years
so it cant be 2199 or earlyer!!


enjoy

8>

Exactly xontas there is no telling how long it has been, 100 years or 10000 years.

Liondale

9> each time Zion is destroyed all the people are killed and another Zion built, if you played the game you would know about the rabbit hole of the real world, the uncharted tunnels where Niobe parks her ship to be found (hopefully).

SO who is to say Zion isn't physically destroyed then a new one built elsewhere having AN ENLIGHTENED ONE pre programmed with the information and then waking up the rest FROM THE MATRIX and escaping to the new Zion (maybe even having them build it and helping them out somehow) and thus it starts all over again and the prophecy propagated.

I have more but for later...

So if Zion is part of the Matrix("donc" under control),why the Architect is saying "if those people are left unchecked ,they will be a threat for the System".
Because if Zion is under control they don't need to destroy it:they just control it.
The Architect created the Matrix:so the evidence is that if Zion is another Matrix he knows its existence.
For the theories,I just mean that it's better discussing about the real facts(that's the base of any real discussion).
Your theory is based(in part) in the fact that someone outside the Matrix know that Neo actually can't sleep.So if all the System is predetermined or looping,the Oracle just know that fact because it's a situation that have already happened not that she shares the same "space memory than Neo".
There's another posssible interpretation of the Oracle words"I know":maybe,"I know (WHY)". That's a possibility you haven't take into account.
Just like I said:you may know the cause by just knowing the effects but that don't mean you actually know the real facts."That's only a matter of cause and effect".

First to mr.xonta and rama:
Another reason why I find this "Zion rebuilt by 23 people" statement not to sound to probable is also the actual physical labor and engineering it would take to build a new city or hideout like Zion. Not only would the 16 women have to be pregnant most of the time (and after some years the risk of "cousin - cousin" marriages would grow very big), but the men would also have to actually build the place, the machines, the computers, the infrastructure. I just can't see that is possible by 23 people. These 23 would probably have to be experts within each their field of engineering, medicine, physics, chemistry, computer science etc...but who would do the work?

To johnstamp2: First of all, I highly appreaciate your comments. I think that theories by nature can not be based on facts alone, then they would not be theories but factual conclusions/results...
Which is also the reason theories may be discussed so much, and regardless of how many arguments put for or against, the truth is not affected by it - and will only be learned when the time is right. But that's the beauty of it isn't it - to exchange ideas...
What you say about the Oracle and the Architect is correct, that is another way of interpreting and leads the way for other theories.
As mentioned earlier I think when the Architect says "if those people are left unchecked, they will be a threat for the System" he is either trying to create a picture for Neo to test his bonds and feelings - OR even though they have Zion under control, when it reaches a limit it will threat the system. Same as when you thrash bin on you PC gets too filled up, you need to empty it to free space...

Like you said there will be always matter of discussion as long as the Revolutions movie doesn't come out.I completely agree with you.
But as I've understood there are two serious threats:Neo and the people in Zion.
We all agree that the Matrix is created to use humans' energy.So,if the people in zion are still connected to the Matrix,their energy is actually used by the machines.That would be all good for the machines.and the number of people escaping to zion would in any ways change the energy bilan.
So killing people you completely control(because they are in the Matrix) and plus,they don't know that they are actually controled,and plus their energy is actually "feeding" the machines in the Real world) is something irrelevant.
If those people in zion are under the control of the Matrix,to kill them isn't it easier to kill their bodies in the Real world?That's a so easy way to kill them that machines would be very stupid if they have no idea about it.Look:I would prefer personnally go in the power plant to kill the people in Zion(they are still plugged in,so they are still in the power plant "physically") instead of digging in the Earth core to kill them.
Well assuming that Zion is part of the Matrix,we can conclude that the Sentinals sent to kill them are also connected to the Matrix or more precisely plugged in.(that's hard to believe since they have no mind).They share the same "reality" than Zion otherwise they wouldn't be able to go there.
Well there arises a question:why would the machines plug themselves to kill Zion people because there's a so easy way to kill them in the power plant?Moreover how would they plug themselves in?
there's a big hole in Zion part of the Matrix theory!!!

Originally posted by johnstanp2
Like you said there will be always matter of discussion as long as the Revolutions movie doesn't come out.I completely agree with you.
But as I've understood there are two serious threats:Neo and the people in Zion.

We all agree that the Matrix is created to use humans' energy.So,if the people in zion are still connected to the Matrix,their energy is actually used by the machines.That would be all good for the machines.and the number of people escaping to zion would in any ways change the energy bilan.
So killing people you completely control(because they are in the Matrix) and plus,they don't know that they are actually controled,and plus their energy is actually "feeding" the machines in the Real world) is something irrelevant.

If those people in zion are under the control of the Matrix,to kill them isn't it easier to kill their bodies in the Real world?That's a so easy way to kill them that machines would be very stupid if they have no idea about it.Look:I would prefer personnally go in the power plant to kill the people in Zion(they are still plugged in,so they are still in the power plant "physically") instead of digging in the Earth core to kill them.
Well assuming that Zion is part of the Matrix,we can conclude that the Sentinals sent to kill them are also connected to the Matrix or more precisely plugged in.(that's hard to believe since they have no mind).They share the same "reality" than Zion otherwise they wouldn't be able to go there.
Well there arises a question:why would the machines plug themselves to kill Zion people because there's a so easy way to kill them in the power plant?Moreover how would they plug themselves in?
there's a big hole in Zion part of the Matrix theory!!!



extualy there is nog hole in the theory!

you forget that if zion is also a martix than the powerplant you have seen is also a simulation!
and unplugging people from it would only kill people in "the matrix"and not in "the real world"

also if my theory is true than the programs inside the Zion simulation might not know that they are in a simulation!
(than they also dont know that the people in zion are still plugged in somewhere)(as the animartix says (every reality is virtual for a machine so they cant tell the diference)

if zion is a simulation (the biggest prove is neo using his powers in the "real world") than we dont know the reson for the matrix!!
the powerplants are part of the zion simulation so there could be a other reson
we dont even know if the enemy are the machines.
we dont even know if the enemy is realy a enemy

both movies focus in one way or a other on choice.
the first one on the coice to belive the second one on the power of choice.
i think the third movie will focus on the reson of choice
the "why" of the matrix

we all await your responce!

Johnstanp2: I think the points you just made were the best so far. It got me thining a lot. I also saw animatrix last night for the first time... I tend to agree that if the Zion people are indeed "plugged-in" somewhere then it would surely be a lot easier to kill them there.
So I guess it comes down to this:
1. If Zion is indeed part of- or another matrix, where the inhabitants are plugged in somewhere. Then either the threat from the "machines" is only to provoke a certain reaction - not a real threat as such...
2. Or - Zion is not part of Matrix and Neo's sudden powers, and Smiths transfer to Bane seems beyond my imagination and any good reasons I have heard so far.
The wireless thing just doesn't do it for me, even though I fear it might be the "truth"...
I can "live" with Zion not being a matrix as such, but then the explanation for Neo's powers has to be very good...

The Animatrix certainly built up under the belief that Zion is indeed a free haven - totally unplugged... On the other hand, I still can not understand why the Architect would even offer Neo the choice if he so much wanted to reload the Matrix again. Why are there two doors at the architect? Why not just one - which had been sufficient the other times. If you programmed the two doors, then you certainly must have had a plan for why you wanted the second one there...-Wonder if I will post this question as a individual thread, since I fear that our long posts has killed some interest for this thread :) I have most certainly enjoyed it though, so I hope you all will continue posting your thoughts.

>>>extualy there is nog hole in the theory!

you forget that if zion is also a martix than the powerplant you have seen is also a simulation!
and unplugging people from it would only kill people in "the matrix"and not in "the real world"

also if my theory is true than the programs inside the Zion simulation might not know that they are in a simulation!
(than they also dont know that the people in zion are still plugged in somewhere)(as the animartix says (every reality is virtual for a machine so they cant tell the diference)

if zion is a simulation (the biggest prove is neo using his powers in the "real world") than we dont know the reson for the matrix!!
the powerplants are part of the zion simulation so there could be a other reson
we dont even know if the enemy are the machines.
we dont even know if the enemy is realy a enemy

both movies focus in one way or a other on choice.
the first one on the coice to belive the second one on the power of choice.
i think the third movie will focus on the reson of choice
the "why" of the matrix

we all await your responce!
>>>

At first here's my deeper feeling:something is true untill someone tells you why it is false.

That's even the essence of true science , Mathematics , Physics,Thermodynamics.All that matters is the WHY AND HOW not the beliefs.
I don't know if I make myself understood enough(French is my native language) but my precedent thread was some kind of an ironic one(Second degree).You can prove that something is false by just showing how irrelevant some facts are:that's what I was doing for the people who think that machines CONTROL EVERYTHING TILL ZION'S PEOPLE BY THE MATRIX.
Now we can discuss of the idea of the Simulation that run the Matrix and Zion but there's no given strong argumentations about that.
U can argue that all of the people wee saw in the film are programs of a big simulation but tell us why we should believe you.Give me your deductions not your conclusions:it's too easy.
I can argue myself that Neo is himself a machine or a stuff like that but I won't cause I've got no real explanations for that his real nature.(Smith knows but not me)
That's why I didn't talk about Neo's powers in the real world because that's above my understanding(In fact I've got my own idea about it but I must gather some strong explanations).
Your post was some kind of defy:but I'm just curious about the film,I'm not like"U're all stupid cause I got it".I'm just sharing my QUESTIONS and some ANSWERS.If someone can help me understand something I don't or I misunderstood he's welcomed and I'll be delighted.

All of it is making sense.

ok you want prove that "the real world" (not just zion but the whole world outside the matrix) is in fact a other matrix!

both neo's dream and the oracle predict that trinity will fall from a building (that hasn't happent yet)

then later in the movie something happens in the realworld!
a bridge breaks the people on board die and the hovercraft gets destroyed
as a result the people that are hacked into the matrix cant complete there mision.
that forces trinity to enter the matrix!
and that gives neo his choice

i come to a couple questions

1) how could the oracle and neo's dream predict something that can only happen if something happens in the real world!

2) the architecht needs neo to make a choice (as he has done to the other ones) but he needs trinity to get in the matrix for that.
this happens because a bridge breaks in the real world!

3) did the brige break and create the choice or was the choice already made (like the oracle says)

Originally posted by mr.xontas
ok you want prove that "the real world" (not just zion but the whole world outside the matrix) is in fact a other matrix!

both neo's dream and the oracle predict that trinity will fall from a building (that hasn't happent yet)

then later in the movie something happens in the realworld!
a bridge breaks the people on board die and the hovercraft gets destroyed
as a result the people that are hacked into the matrix cant complete there mision.
that forces trinity to enter the matrix!
and that gives neo his choice

i come to a couple questions

1) how could the oracle and neo's dream predict something that can only happen if something happens in the real world!

2) the architecht needs neo to make a choice (as he has done to the other ones) but he needs trinity to get in the matrix for that.
this happens because a bridge breaks in the real world!

3) did the brige break and create the choice or was the choice already made (like the oracle says)

Ahh - excellent points. Hadn't thought of that myself.

Originally posted by mr.xontas
ok you want prove that "the real world" (not just zion but the whole world outside the matrix) is in fact a other matrix!

both neo's dream and the oracle predict that trinity will fall from a building (that hasn't happent yet)

then later in the movie something happens in the realworld!
a bridge breaks the people on board die and the hovercraft gets destroyed
as a result the people that are hacked into the matrix cant complete there mision.
that forces trinity to enter the matrix!
and that gives neo his choice

i come to a couple questions

1) how could the oracle and neo's dream predict something that can only happen if something happens in the real world!

2) the architecht needs neo to make a choice (as he has done to the other ones) but he needs trinity to get in the matrix for that.
this happens because a bridge breaks in the real world!

3) did the brige break and create the choice or was the choice already made (like the oracle says) The bridge was rigged - gotta watch fast - it appears to be tampered with. They show it at the same time Morpheus was giving his pep-rally to the captians within the Matrix, saying "There are no accidents." The bridge breaks and kills the operator. After, the bomb hits the hovercraft and we see the jacked fall down in the powerplant's control room. The two events happen almost back-to-back. It wasn't the bridge breaking that forced Trinity to jack in. The jacked could have finished their mission if it wasn't for the bomb hitting the ship. They just wouldn't have been able to return.

The Oracle didn't predict Trinity falling from a building. She has to ask Neo "what happens after you go through the [white] door?"

Even though I am a big proponent of the Matrix within a Matrix theory, I'm not sure any of your points help to prove it - sorry, That's just me :)

I like what johnstanp2 has asserted. We don't know at all what the truth is. For all we know, the Matrix could be designed to hold AI's and keep them thinking their in control of humans! The whole thing might exist in an IBM mainframe :)