Well, i just watched most of the animatrix (the only one i haven't watched is Final flight of the osiris), and if you're anything like me, you were probably intensely disturbed by it. It seemed so real, almost as though it were possible, something you could watch on the news in a few years. well, i thought i'd share some thoughts so you guys could sleep tonight:
1. EMP weapons: We've seen that Electromagnetic pulses work on the machines, so that probably would have been our primary weapon in the war against them, not guns. EMPs are easy to make, effective, and also viable for long distances. The machines never would have stood a chance. and speaking of EMP's...
2. Nuclear weapons: the story mentions that we dropped a nuclear weapon on 01, but the machines weren't affected because they were impervious to heat and radiation. well, a nuclear weapon produces an EMP, so dropping one on 01 would have been a catastrophic blow to the machine forces.
3. Robots that resemble women: Remember the life like android that the thugs were brutalizing? Well, let's just say a lifelike robot that we could have sex with would effectively end all scientific and cultural progress. we would've got to the sexbot and stopped.:D Yeah, I got it yesterday and was disturbed by it, I only got thru the first 3.
The woman robot being brutalized was sad, when she said 'I am real' it hit me for some reason.
EMPs would have been the good choice there to wipe out the army, true. Maybe the hovercrafts come in either gunner or EMP mode. The Neb never had guns and it was always my contention that they should have.
Very true about the nukes, HUGE emp in that blast. Maybe they had emp shielding, maybe they oversimplified that fact that nukes make more than heat and radiation. But on the converse, why aren't sentinels EMP shielded?
-WC- well, i don't believe that there is such thing as an EMP shield, because of the nature of electromagnetics, but i could be wrong. but, what i'm saying is, if the sentinals aren't EMP shielded, then more than likely the rest of the machines aren't either. but, if androids did exist without EMP shielding, there'd be a heck of a reboot every time they used a microwave or went near a refrigerator.
Consequently, that woman robot being beaten to death was my favorite part. you wonder why it hit you so bad? because it looked like a woman. If that had been a guy robot, the reaction probably wouldn't have been as severe. As a society, we're conditioned to believe that women are the weaker sex, and violence against them is *always* wrong. Conversely, Men are seen as being stronger, and more capable of handling (or perhaps Deserving) of violence. I think it was really brave of the director to make the recipient of such a brutal scene a "woman".
P.S. If you think i'm being a chauvenist about the whole society's perspective thing, It's because we live in a chauvenist society. Ratings are a lot harsher for movies that involve violence towards women, while movies with violence towards men are considered not as bad. seriously, watch some PG-13 flicks, and see how many men get smacked around or killed, and compare that to the number of violent acts toward women. the ratios are astounding. You might be right about the woman robot, but I don't think so. It was the 'I am real' comment that was especially sad to me. Humans are just so cruel sometimes. The fact that it was a woman I don't believe played much into it. The robot that was shot in the head looked non-female and I felt the same pang.
There are EMP shields. A bunker in a mountain is EMP protected. The US military sees EMP weapons as a huge threat in the future and has been shielding what they can. I think it's just the thicker and denser the metal is around the electronics, the more EMP is absorbs. Don't quote me, just a layman's understanding of the technology.
-WC- I agree it was so surreal, awesome idea, and to my understanding thats the pre-matrix(Well, it's before we meet our buddy Neo). I thought it gave such a realistic quality, that it could very well be the future. As for the rating system, I still dont think Matrix Reloaded deserved an R rating, what violence, no1 dies, well fully dies:)
I was disappointed w/ one thing, no NEO, i guess im a dork, but i wanted an Animatrix w/ Neo kicking ass, i guess the chick in the Japanese one will do. Well,This essay (http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/5971/emp.html) seems to suggest that the viability of handheld EMP's isn't so great, but a nuclear explosion would have definitely wiped out 01. The essay is pretty informative, and it's cited and everything, so it officially gets the "Good Read" award from me. Officially. But, even beyond EMP, plain ol' Magnetic Fields are enough to Disrupt most Computers, so i don't see why you couldn't just get some coax, jumper cables, a fishing rod, and a car battery and (with the help of our good pal, electromagnetics!)be relatively safe.
P.S. I didn't like that part with the woman robot for the social commentary. I'm just sick. Originally posted by WildCard
You might be right about the woman robot, but I don't think so. It was the 'I am real' comment that was especially sad to me. Humans are just so cruel sometimes. The fact that it was a woman I don't believe played much into it. The robot that was shot in the head looked non-female and I felt the same pang.
There are EMP shields. A bunker in a mountain is EMP protected. The US military sees EMP weapons as a huge threat in the future and has been shielding what they can. I think it's just the thicker and denser the metal is around the electronics, the more EMP is absorbs. Don't quote me, just a layman's understanding of the technology.
-WC-
For me it was in part two, when the guy in the mech suit was screaming "oh god, somebody help me!" before having his limbs teared off.
On top of the nuke having an EMP, we also have the MOB that has a pretty stong EMP weapon. Also, I really do not see how the machines won the war against the humans. I've said this in another post but the U.S.A. has enough nukes to destroy the world 12 times, the nukes range from a 5-500 kilaton explosion. And machine close to that would have been dead, oh wait there not leaving I'll use the word Nuetrilized. (This is of course assuming the liberal fantics don't go out of control and degrade our militaryin which case they would have probably made peace with the robots and would have gone and smoked joint) Then where is all the cloning and gene theropy, all the super-human drugs? We really should have pressed these advatages in any war against the machines. And wha about strategy, I don't picture machines adapting very well to new situations, they do what they are programed to do or ordered to do. Flanking manuvers and advanced tatics should have thrown the machines off. The machiens still based everytthing of the text book they were programed from.
Also the sentinals wouldn't have had EMP protection because they are to small and need to be manuverable. And i think part of the reason everyone feels bad for the machines is that they were made to look like humans when beaten and shot and slaves when working for the humans. They were very heavily personified. But remeber there not alive, they just have the ability to indepedintly make choices they have no soul, no faith, no hope, or ability to believe, all they have is logic to make decisions.
And thats my rant. Good show, old chap. and yes, that bit with the mech was pretty messed up. the mirrored symbolism at the end where they pan across the humans piled high just like human did to them piled up at the bottom of the ocean.
Geniusly disturbing. Originally posted by weaXpon
3. Robots that resemble women: Remember the life like android that the thugs were brutalizing? Well, let's just say a lifelike robot that we could have sex with would effectively end all scientific and cultural progress. we would've got to the sexbot and stopped.:D
How true!!! when I was really hit was when the little kid got called into his house and there was like a blast or something and the kid got killed I just watched the extras, and they show that part with the mech a lot. They also mentioned a lot of stuff i never picked up on, like the parallels to tianemen square and vietnam and such. And for something that supposedly comes out of zion's mainframe, it sure does paint the machines in a sympathetic light. OK I want to give my theory on the EMP flaw where I think you guys have got it wrong, a machine sustains damage from EMP only when the machine is switched on, just like how the Neb isn't harmed in M1 when they hit the EMP, it was switched off so it wasn't harmed.
Working on this theory then, once the nukes started getting lobbed some machines would have been destroyed but as an emergency measure many machines would have switched off hordes of their robot warriors for the counter punch, they would have turned them back on after the nukes stopped coming, so I don't think that EMP theory is a flaw. Also if we don't take into account those new burrowing nukes then the robots could have had the added advantage of hiding switched off in bunkers. Why wouldn't we take into account the burrowing nukes? And an ICBM from the USA would take 20 min to reach teh middle east, but since there was already a naval blockade it probably would have come from a nuclear sub, trident missle, right now tha twill pack about a 81 megaton explosion (something around there). That would take a very short time to reach 01 and if it came from a stealth bomber, the machines wouldn't have been able to pick up the nuke, then where it would hit, then where to turn the machines off. You Guys are reading too much into this.....that's the way the WB brothers wanted to write their story, so we just got to accept the fact that, things went the way it did.....Yeah is was kinda sad the way, that some of the Machines were killed, destroyed or what ever.....according to the way the story was told, man basically screwed themselves....They created A.I. and treated them like $#!*......A.I. manipulated things just like the humans in the begining, until they started to get more advanced (again humans were the cause) OK I want to give my theory on the EMP flaw where I think you guys have got it wrong, a machine sustains damage from EMP only when the machine is switched on, just like how the Neb isn't harmed in M1 when they hit the EMP, it was switched off so it wasn't harmed.
nope, that's a flaw in the movie. EMP destroys all circuitry, turned on or not. It's almost as though the Air itself is carrying current, and it shorts circuitry. That's one of the reasons it's so viable, because even hand held devices (flashlights and laptops and such) are affected with an EMP attack. The only possible explanation for what happened in M1 is that perhaps they had some kind of EMP shielding that required most of the equipment to be off. And, i suppose i am nitpicking, but that's the fun of being way too critical of movies! it may not be a flaw, they turn off everything so that the sentinals down see them (search and destroy), the electronics on the Neb are probably shielded (but what kind of shield requies stuff to be off). and if the electronics do get damaged they will fix them, would yo urather be dead or fixing stuff (I choose dead) after watching the extras and seeing what the director had to say, id have to say that this short film was done perfectly, there isnt much to touch up on. kinda like my opinion about the second movie, sure, everyone has their own little b!tch about it, but for the most part it still kicks some major ass compared to other sh*t nowdays. Totally agree with you frost.
In terms of the EMP argument without knowing more facts about nukes and electromagnetics and whatnot I am not going to argue furhter simply because I don't know enough. I was just trying to be consistent with what the film told us concerning EMPs. it was way too realistic... I agree, why didnt they destroy them with EMP. they werent thinking clearly EMP does not affect anything that is not connected to an operating power source. The reason the machines did so well miltarily was the fact that the AI is not restricted to programming, it learns and adapts as it goes along. EMP shielding does exist and has been around since the '60s. Also one of the reasons the machines could continuously attack is the fact that unlike humans, their soldiers could be mass-produced, ready to fight right off the assembly line. Humans need to be born, age, and trained before they become viable soldiers. Well that's my $0.02. I appreciate anime and science fiction as much as the next otaku. Having said that, I admit that I was disappointed that TSR did not feature the exact moment at which artificial intelligence became self-aware. You don't get robots rebelling against humans without that. Without any self-awareness, a robot remains a machine, albeit a programmable one. The mere fact that you can install programs into something does not render it self-aware. Your VCR is programmable (to record shows at preset times), so why aren't you afraid that it's going to change its mind and not do as you say? Because it has no mind to change. In a broader sense, EVERY interaction between man and machine is a programming of the machine by man, an imposition of the will of man upon machine's actions because machine has no will of its own from which to act. When you pick up a phone and dial a number, the computer inside the phone connects you to that other phone, it has received your instructions to do so and it has no brain compelling it to do otherwise. And what is a program but a set of instructions. Even if a programming routine is set to do things at random intervals, that randomness does not represent any sort of "willpower" on the part of the machine to choose when the operation happens. The machine cannot choose to alter the randomness back into a regular schedule or routine (such as clockwork), nor can it choose NOT to execute the operation at all. A command for randomness within a program is like a pair of dice. You are commanding the machine to continually roll the dice, over and over again, and only to execute a set of instructions if the dice come up with a certain number. How can this be considered self-awareness?
In TSR, we are not introduced to the moment at which the machines attain self-awareness. It simply happens to some robots overnight. Some gain the ability to choose for themselves that they should stop working on construction and sit around watching TV instead. Others gain the ability to decide for themselves that their human masters should die before they do. This last one is particularly troublesome, because it not only implies that a machine can suddenly acquire a life of self-awareness on its own, but also that the basic programming of a robot in the future won't include The Three Laws of Robotics. (Look them up yourself.)
Just as a side note, I am hoping that Terminator 3 (due to be released this summer) will address this point with the awakening of Skynet into self-awareness. Okay, T3 didn't deal with the issue of how computers / machines (SkyNet) become sentient. Disappointed. Originally posted by WildCard
You might be right about the woman robot, but I don't think so. It was the 'I am real' comment that was especially sad to me. Humans are just so cruel sometimes. The fact that it was a woman I don't believe played much into it. The robot that was shot in the head looked non-female and I felt the same pang.
There are EMP shields. A bunker in a mountain is EMP protected. The US military sees EMP weapons as a huge threat in the future and has been shielding what they can. I think it's just the thicker and denser the metal is around the electronics, the more EMP is absorbs. Don't quote me, just a layman's understanding of the technology.
-WC-
It was an extremly disturbing film for me, but good. I had heard about that bunker before Wildcard. It would have to be a very solid piece of metal to protect the emp though, mmmmmmmm interesting.
kodell. i think it makes you see it more from the side of A.I
"Machine endowerd by with soul of man" I like your points, i've never saw it that way. I really don't know why they didn't used EMP at the beginning or why they left the emp from the explotion out of bussiness, but i do know that it would have affected their army. Originally posted by WildCard
The woman robot being brutalized was sad, when she said 'I am real' it hit me for some reason.
-WC-
omg! i almost started crying right then. thats exactly how i felt when she said, "stop. im real !!" and then gets blasted with the shotgun. i swear, that really did cause me to get all emotional. just something in the way that she said it, it really hit something in me. Ok, I'm going to be the brave one here and admit I was just plain disappointed with TSR I & II.
I was looking for some interesting background information about The Matrix films. For some intellectually stimulating scenes (like the Architect scene in Reloaded).
Instead, I was mostly subjected to the crude emotional manipulation noted by others on this thread.
Some of the narrative was interesting. But there were still some important questions unanswered.
Like:
1. Why didn't the Scorching The Sky tactic work? I mean that was supposed to be the all-important weapon for the humans with a lasting effect on the whole Earth. But the machines just happily continued without much ado? Didn't that deserve a little explanation?
2. The EMP question discussed elsewhere could have at least been given a "movie" explanation so people wouldn't sit around in fora thinking they spotted a flaw.
3. What's up with robots with feelings? It seems the W bros are trying to motivate the whole rebellion against the humans on the machines' dissatisfaction with their job situation. That's making them too human. They're just supposed to be intelligent machines. That's the whole point of handing repetitive work over to machines. They don't get bored and lose concentration over routine jobs. And they don't get emotional about how they're being treated.
Guess the W bros were too busy making splatter effects... that part with the bodies wasnt to pleasant All the matrix movies are flawed, because they are seen from a Human perspective.
TSR 1/2 are data retrived by the machines (check the intro),which makes them flawed in favor of the machines, but i found it being an REAL intereting counterpoint. us as the humans ****ed up for we started the war of us vs the macheins and we started it but we lost...but the machiens pleaded us to stop but like the fools of congress didnt lisen and kept on going and not doining any thing to stop so they desirve to die...not us we only got snuffed out like candles Originally posted by Matrixio
3. What's up with robots with feelings? It seems the W bros are trying to motivate the whole rebellion against the humans on the machines' dissatisfaction with their job situation. That's making them too human. They're just supposed to be intelligent machines. That's the whole point of handing repetitive work over to machines. They don't get bored and lose concentration over routine jobs. And they don't get emotional about how they're being treated.
Guess the W bros were too busy making splatter effects...
The thing with artificial intelligence is that machines are given the ability to feel emotions. This means that they can tire and get bored just like humans.
Check that movie A.I. out Originally posted by Seyton
The thing with artificial intelligence is that machines are given the ability to feel emotions. This means that they can tire and get bored just like humans.
Check that movie A.I. out
Movie A.I. ? Were you thinking of something specific? Other than the fact that in the movies, programs are seen to experience feelings? i guess some one goofed or thought it was funny to give machiens emotions well...i guess thats so but i dont under stand its comeing off to hot but all i know is that we messed up by not lisening to there cry for help...thus ends the chapter of human kind though few lived...but are hooked into the matrix...poor people the pain must be really bad A.I isn't a machine doing what you tell it.
It's a machine that can think for it's self.
It can take a situation and some to its own understanding.
Who's to say when an A.I sees someone being killed it's A.I does not consist of morales?
Morales are human impulses, we are taught right and wrong from a young age. It's those that aren't that tend to be amorale.
i think if A.I was created it would strike a war because what humans fear, they hate. And they would fear A.I becomming more superior than them.
Which is what the matrix is about. Who is superior - Neo or Smith?
smith wants destruction...
Neo wants sanctuary. ah yes agent smith vs neo the battle rages on and so on but if neo wins we are free if smith wins then we are doomed it all comes down to who wins and who loses...we must hope that neo wins or otherwise the world will end...fast to answer everyones rants about the atrocities seen in the animatrix...the only problem that led us to hate machines is that we made them to serve US as a economical society but because they were so efficient at work and technological value we saw them as a possible threat and we felt they had to be destroyed...which is sad but a harsh reality simply because we as society are determined to reign supreme therefore we make eqaul threat from possable opposing threat...let me quote councilman hammond from reloaded....."thats it you hit the nail on the head thats true power.If we wanted to we could smash them all to bits" thats the answer to every question in this post we believe power is the answer to every threat to every conflict and every struggle thats why the humans and machines werent able to live harmoniously with the machines in the animatrix...it didnt make sense to genocide an entire race of machines because one of them flipped and killed a man and a woman...NO we thought if one could do it all of them could and did the race in thats what its all about...thats the tradgic way of life its was actually because the machines felt they where being ill treated and not respected by there masters.
B166er struck out at his master and after his termination, it was sort that all machines be destroyed. revoking a war. almost like a A.I hollocaust.
They where pushed into Another city zero one.
but then the cuurency of Zero one was becomming so strong they had advanced more than any human city. and This was seen as a threat to humanity economical structure.
The leaders of Zero one tried to consult congress only to be destroyed. The world attacked Zero one with weapons that had no effect on the A.I that lived there. and the A.I after there city was destroyed. Attacked back, starting to overtake all major cities.
Then humanity blackend the skies. Resulting in there own defeat!
It all happend, because An equilibriam is impossible in a territorial world!
We fight among our own races, never mind something such as A.I what your are saying is true but the point i am trying to make that answers all questions on this topic is on a different level than your reply acknowledges...My point is that before B-166-ER attacked and killed his masters there was no speculation towards the presence of AI and robots in normal human society...BUT because a controlled being like B-166-ER was capable of turning on his master society passed judgement on the AI/Robotic race and saw fit to wipe it out...as for blackening the skies well that was just a desperation method the Humans used to pretty much say "if we cant have the planet neither can you" which only backs up the point i am making and ill say it quite simply...We as people as a society cant coexist with another culture or race that we know is a threat to us...therefore we destroy it before it destroys us...any more questions please dont hesitate to ask... i dont under stand why must we kil first then exept? the reason Our society shoots first and asks questions later is because we dont really know how to meet possible threat any other than with a greater force to destroy the first threat diplomacy and non-agressive reasoning doesnt find its way into many political situations these days... oh the ass monkeys of congress pinned the A.I holocast on us humans and foced us to try to kill the A.I's but why where they as stupid to start this ****? the truth is : after dropping the bomb, everything was fake ! coz the atomic bomb generates EMP. therefore it affected all the machines which gav the humans the chance to reprogram the machines and fake the truth... they plugged the machines into a matrix and thought that they won the war and took over the world. notice how the girl (the android) said: i'm real... that's coz all the humans in the matrix are not humans.. they are machines but they don't know it ... it's the trick of the matrix inside the matrix !
01 (ZERNE) is ZION in a strange twisted way....
search for a post about the spoiler of revolutions and all of this will make sense.
and the whole archive in zion's database is 01's... the female computer speaks about the machines as they were victims, and that is the truth. what are you talking about? ok psy i really need you to explain that more carefully cause it doesnt make much sense i know neo oh and dont take the avatar personaly i just thought it was cool Originally posted by WildCard
EMPs would have been the good choice there to wipe out the army, true. Maybe the hovercrafts come in either gunner or EMP mode. The Neb never had guns and it was always my contention that they should have.
-WC-
The Neb has guns, but you never really get the chance to see them. When the Neb first encounters a Sentinel in the Matrix, as it goes into the corner you can see this little turret on the bottom with sticks poking out of it. Thats what i think is a gun. a gun turrent?...ok im not sure what your talking about man but good for you the truth is everybody dies. All the Rebels are doing is what everyone does. There entire lives.
believing reality means soemthing and fighting for something that can never truley exsist. Life.
Even if the matrix is resets and everyone in zion is saved.
There still all going to die. All they have is hope! Which is just a distraction from reality. You cannot escape the absolute end. Only delay it!
You may call this a morbid view from a depressed mind. I call it the cold harsh truth of life. We live to survive, but we all know - we cannot survive forever.
Why do we live. because we believe being flesh and bone is better than being an object six feet under. Which we will all one day become! All we have is the moment! We have no future or past.
The matrix is as real as the real world. As long as we believe everything we see to be true. there is no real difference.
It's like believing in heaven. As long as you believe. it doesnt matter if there is a heaven or not because you will never see it! you are cold...even colder then my cusin irl...you know about the "truth"but can you feel it???...can you see it?...can you smell it?...if you cant do any of them then its not there nothing exists we may think we are real cause we may be able to feel eachothers skin but why do you think we are weak???... you must under stand you...i...we are not real we are only images to die and be 6 feet under once we are born death puts our name on its list i know soon that i will probly die soon but i dont care if you do then you are weak but truth you must under stand im wiseing up and seting my self straight...people THINK!!!...dont try to dodge death take it like you should!!! I thought the Finla Flight of the Orisis was a bit to graphic and cruel. But with neulceat weapond if that did set of the EMP than why didn't it die? ... i dont know watch the animatrix about a billion times then wisen up a little? For them to black out the sky that really was a last resort and i ronicly started the Matrix in the First place.
really sad on our part it was are fault the Matrix was created use your head man think we pissed the machiens off now there comeing for us and we basically faulted a machien for it when really it was us I haven't read all the posts of this thread but I will only ask two questions and answer then myself:
-you must have noticed that at the end of SR2,that in fact there were Agents in the real world who take the little kid to plugg him in the Matrix:but we know that agents can't exist in the real world,even outside the Matrix...
-a nuclear bomb generate an EMP:the reason given in SR2 is that some superior machines were able to resist to a nuclear war.
But if they are not able to resist to an EMP blast how could they even resist to nuclear bombS????
First answer:Agents can't exist in the real world.So that part of the SR is already in the Matrix illusion...And coupled to the fact that 0-1 has been bombed by many nuclear bomb,the most evident conclusion will be that,SR2 is completely false!!!!
Machines never won the war,they lost it!!!! finaly answers i was starting to wonder
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