Arc's speech means no matrix within matrix?

After reading the transcript, my interpretation was that the
mother worked out that the machines had to let some humans
live in the real world outside of any matrix.

She found out that those in the matrix would subconciously feel
the prescence of zion. They would know (at some level) that they
had a choice as to whether to stay in the matrix.

This free will was an improvement to the matrix that meant that
99% of people accepted it. However the unaccounted for 1% that
reject it represent an increasing population outside the matrix
which can become a threat and so the population is periodically
reduced to 23.

Zion must be outside of the matrix. Otherwise the subconcious
effect of there being a zion would be no different from that of the
ordinary matrix in which most people think they are free.

Whether or not Zion is another Matrix, the machines still control Zion. There are certain clues that lead people to believe Zion isn't real, when you combine the Architect's words to what we see within Zion. Zion's population in Reloaded is 250,000. Its a huge complex, with an equally large engineering room. The Nebuchadnezzar's manufacture date is 2069. If Zion has been destroyed 5 times already since the Matrix was first formed, why is the Nebuchadnezzar preserved? How is it that this massive city AND its massive engineering room have been rebuilt by mere humans with sticks and stones? Remember, the Architect states that Zion's very existence is completely eradicated each time.

Either Zion is another Matrix, programmed to come complete with ships, residences and an engineering room, or the span from one One to the other is several hundred years. That would make the Nebuchadnezzar a VERY old machine.

Given that it is in the machines interests to have a zion, could the machines not rebuild it every time the matrix is reloaded?

It would make sense for the machines to maintain some control of zion even if it cannot be another matrix. Maybe the conversation between the councelor and neo was hinting at this, when he says that he doesn't know how the machines in the engineering room work. How 23 people could survive in that kind of post apocalyptic world without sunlight and without help from the matrix is beyond me.

Agreed Josh. If we use our own history, and the expanse of time required to become advanced enough to create automated water filtering devices and power capabilities, I find it hard to believe 24 individuals, their offspring AND any rescued from the matrix could do all this.

In Reloaded, we learn there are 250,000 sentinels on their way to defeat Zion, one for every man, woman and child. Yet in our time with 5+ billion people on the planet, we're still trying to create a genuine AI, much less any ofthe other automated systems represented in Zion...

Originally posted by EtaPhase
Whether or not Zion is another Matrix, the machines still control Zion. There are certain clues that lead people to believe Zion isn't real, when you combine the Architect's words to what we see within Zion. Zion's population in Reloaded is 250,000. Its a huge complex, with an equally large engineering room. The Nebuchadnezzar's manufacture date is 2069. If Zion has been destroyed 5 times already since the Matrix was first formed, why is the Nebuchadnezzar preserved? How is it that this massive city AND its massive engineering room have been rebuilt by mere humans with sticks and stones? Remember, the Architect states that Zion's very existence is completely eradicated each time.

Either Zion is another Matrix, programmed to come complete with ships, residences and an engineering room, or the span from one One to the other is several hundred years. That would make the Nebuchadnezzar a VERY old machine.

I agree, what you have stated is a very good example as to why I am believing more and more that Zion is in fact another constuct/matrix. Even though I have calculated the generation factor in my head just squeezes in to be slightly more that a quarter of a million people, there is hardly any proof given that 23 people can re-create Zion over and over again, taking into account the technology factor etc, without the help of the machines. And you pose another interesting fact. The nebuchanezzer would be a very old ship indeed, unless people were made to believe that it is made in 2069 over and over again. Once more with the help of machines.



UT

I think it is more logical to assume the machines help supply the initial technology in zion rather than assume that zion is not what we would consider the 'real' world.

I believe that zion is a matrix within a matrix..
what some of you have stated seriously shows alot of evidence.. especially with the Counsellar hamman, anyway, also the bit which i though was very interesting is at the start of the flick.. when the code comes down.. it kinda looks like zion.. with all the mechanical gears etc... and when it zooms out... it has all the flatforms.. like in zion... i dont know if this is a coinsedence but still.. sumthing i noted after watching it..for like the 7 time. :D lol

SiLeNT_SCReaMZ
the code comes down.. it kinda looks like zion.. with all the mechanical gears etc...

I hadn't attached any significance to the opening sequence but maybe you're right. It is reminiscent of zion's engineering room.

Maybe this is just to suggest that (as Terikan says) the machines are involved in the construction of zion, not as another matrix but as a very real place.

Josh.

Ultimate Trinity - How have you worked out the 'generation factor.' Morpheus says that they've been surviving for 100 years.

Isn't that 3 generations in which 23 people might only become say 100 and never 250,000.

???

Josh.

Originally posted by SiLeNT_SCReaMZ
I believe that zion is a matrix within a matrix..
what some of you have stated seriously shows alot of evidence.. especially with the Counsellar hamman, anyway, also the bit which i though was very interesting is at the start of the flick.. when the code comes down.. it kinda looks like zion.. with all the mechanical gears etc... and when it zooms out... it has all the flatforms.. like in zion... i dont know if this is a coinsedence but still.. sumthing i noted after watching it..for like the 7 time. :D lol It is the inner workings of the guard house time clock - gears, tumblers, etc.

I think etaphase is right because after a while it zooms out onto that clock.

I guess they are trying to say that the matrix runs like clockwork.

This foreshadows the architect telling Neo that even he is just another brick in the wall lol (pink floyd) and that he is helping the matrix.

Josh.