After seeing the film for the third time...

I was watching for things I thought to look for after reading some replies to posts I made and posts others made.

Someone said the council member Neo spoke with when he couldnt sleep could be the ONE from before Neo. He doesnt have any ports to jack into the matrix so that cannot be the case. They clearly show the back of his head close up in the film.

I said before that the Oracle said she was a machine jacked into the matrix but she didnt. The Oracle said she is a program within the matrix and all that we learn from that is that she isnt a human like neo jacked into it. So what she says and the Architect say about her being an intuitive program matches up.

When Neo is talking to the Architect and the Architect is explaining about how he solved the problems of the matrix with the help of an intuitive program and Neo says the Oracle the Architect says "PLEASE." In a diminutive manner that clearly is telling Neo that she is not an Oracle in the sense that she KNOWS all that will happen. The Architect is laughing to himself really at what to him must seem absurd that Neo believes that the intuitive program really is a know it all Oracle.

When Neo is speaking to the Oracle she says she is concerned with one thing more than anything else and that is the future and I know we can only reach it together. This is important because she is telling Neo that somehow machines and humans must find peace.

The Architect tells Neo about the anomaly (about himself I assume) saying that, "As you are undoubtedly gathering, the anomoly is systemic, creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations." This is an interesting statement. This means or could mean that Neo has power over the entire matrix ubiquitously. What I mean is that Neo can affect the entire matrix not just a part of it where he happens to be digitally represented to us. This could be the key to how Neo will change the Matrix in the last film.

I now agree with those that believe Mr. Smith and Neo are linked in some fashion but I do not understand it. They have given us very little to go on when it comes to this.

I cant make out the time line as to when exactly Mr. Smith fell into a comma and when Neo did. Did those events occur simultaneously? I dont know since the movie doesnt give us enough information and it is all just speculation.

It was odd that Neo was cut when fighting the Marrovinchians hench men since he should be invulnerable to any such attack within the Matrix. He was shot full of holes and recovered so it is odd that he should fear an explosion at all. Seems to me that Trinity should not have had to save him from the BOMB and that all she did was save the keymaker and Morpheus. On that note how the hell did Morpheus get out of the building with all the Mr. Smiths in the hallway and no hardline phone available in an area they cant even detect that they are in outside the matrix?

Morpheus didn't leave the way they came in. The keymaker directed morpheus to a different door that would get him out of there.

I cant remember it but I believe you.

Someone said the council member Neo spoke with when he couldnt sleep could be the ONE from before Neo. He doesnt have any ports to jack into the matrix so that cannot be the case. They clearly show the back of his head close up in the film.Yea I was one of those who at first thought that. After seeing the movie again I came to the same conclusion you did. But, his dialogue with Neo suggests an awareness of the choice dilemna that only a One would have. Perhaps Hamaan knew the previous One.
I said before that the Oracle said she was a machine jacked into the matrix but she didnt. The Oracle said she is a program within the matrix and all that we learn from that is that she isnt a human like neo jacked into it. So what she says and the Architect say about her being an intuitive program matches up.Acually it was Neo who labeled the Oracle a program. "If I had to guess, I’d say you are a program from the machine world. So is he." referring to Seraph, her protector. She replied with "So far, so good."
When Neo is talking to the Architect and the Architect is explaining about how he solved the problems of the matrix with the help of an intuitive program and Neo says the Oracle the Architect says "PLEASE." In a diminutive manner that clearly is telling Neo that she is not an Oracle in the sense that she KNOWS all that will happen. The Architect is laughing to himself really at what to him must seem absurd that Neo believes that the intuitive program really is a know it all Oracle.Yep. I took it as though the Architect was insulted from the first time I saw the movie. Calling a program an Oracle, how cliché, hehe.
When Neo is speaking to the Oracle she says she is concerned with one thing more than anything else and that is the future and I know we can only reach it together. This is important because she is telling Neo that somehow machines and humans must find peace.This is fabrication. The Oracle is a program. The reason she's concerned about the future is because she needs to fulfill her purpose as a program. "We’re all here to do what we’re all here to do. I’m interested in one thing Neo. The future. And believe me, the only way to get there is together." This merely describes her need for Neo's cooperation in this matter, that's all.
The Architect tells Neo about the anomaly (about himself I assume) saying that, "As you are undoubtedly gathering, the anomoly is systemic, creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations." This is an interesting statement. This means or could mean that Neo has power over the entire matrix ubiquitously. What I mean is that Neo can affect the entire matrix not just a part of it where he happens to be digitally represented to us. This could be the key to how Neo will change the Matrix in the last film.I agree up until your last statement. You use future-tense to describe the first film. Not sure what your point is.
I now agree with those that believe Mr. Smith and Neo are linked in some fashion but I do not understand it. They have given us very little to go on when it comes to this.Best I can gather is Neo has some of Smith's programming code, but more importantly, Smith has some of Neo's anomolous code, making him the true wildcard for M3.
I cant make out the time line as to when exactly Mr. Smith fell into a comma and when Neo did. Did those events occur simultaneously? I dont know since the movie doesnt give us enough information and it is all just speculation.It's apparent by the fact that Smith said they were connected somehow. To understand it, you have to go back to M1 and realize the Agents and Sentinels work in tandem. Neo takes out Sentinels, which harms the Smith in Bane, and since Neo is connected to Smith, he is harmed too. Think of it as a feedback pulse.
It was odd that Neo was cut when fighting the Marrovinchians hench men since he should be invulnerable to any such attack within the Matrix. He was shot full of holes and recovered so it is odd that he should fear an explosion at all. Seems to me that Trinity should not have had to save him from the BOMB and that all she did was save the keymaker and Morpheus. On that note how the hell did Morpheus get out of the building with all the Mr. Smiths in the hallway and no hardline phone available in an area they cant even detect that they are in outside the matrix?Wow, you combined several issues in this last point.

Neo bleeding during that fight scene is inconsequential. It was a way of telling the audience that Neo was human. Merovigian had a chance to say so.

Fearing an explosion inside Zion, with his gang nearby? I don't think he was fearing for himself. Morpheus, Trinity and Link were there too. Neo wanted to get them out of there. I was the first time he detected machine activity. What's this about Trinity having to save Neo from the bomb? She saved the Key Maker? and Morpheus? Did you watch the same movie everyone else did?

The keymaker, right before expiring, pointed to a door for Morpheus to go through to return to Zion. He then gave Neo the key to the Architect.

I don’t believe Hamaan would need “an awareness of the choice dilemma that only a One would have,” to come to the understanding he has at all. I don’t believe any such connection is required. He is just wise.

Neo is clearly talking about the Oracle and Seraph in that conversation:
Neo: If I had to guess. I’d say you are a program from the machine world. So is he.
Oracle: So far, so good.
On a side note when Neo sees Seraph’s code it is golden not greenish. We do not get to see what he sees when looking at the Oracle.

"This is Fabrication." Here is where we disagree most. I don’t believe that the Oracle is “merely describing her need for Neo’s cooperation in this matter.” I don’t believe that the Oracle can be explained away that simply. She is as the Architect explains a mind and an intellect that he considers inferior to his own but that due to its intuition could do what he could not.
“I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus the answer was stumbled upon by another. An intuitive program initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.”

I think machines are programs and vice versa. A machine is a program housed inside a physical body. A program within the matrix is represented without its physical body. Thus we have lots of confusion. Undoubtedly some programs never had physical bodies and others do. Figuring out which programs were created in the matrix and which are within the matrix but also have a physical body is part of the mystery.

Mr. Smith has managed to escape the matrix by infecting Bane with his program. Mr. Smith is now able to act inside and outside the matrix simultaneously. Neo although he is outside the matrix when not jacked into it must also still be within the matrix simultaneously. I don’t think the systemic anomaly could completely separate itself from the matrix within the physical form we know as Neo.

In reference to, “you use future-tense to describe the first film.” I am talking about the last film not the first film or in other words the final third film in the trilogy.

I don’t believe in the feedback pulse theory at all. I don’t have an explanation for what happened. I think we just don’t have enough information.

Neo bleeding from the cut on his hand to me is weird. It shouldn’t happen. Neo should be impervious to such things.

Trinity risked her life to save Neo specifically that is my point. Neo should however be impervious to an explosion from THE BOMB the key-maker warns about. Anyhow the only way to explain it is that Neo although powerful has as of yet not realized his full potential, not even close.

My final point is that like Hamaan I don’t have a point sometimes because I am just throwing out my thoughts about something.

About hamann being a previous One, not possible seeing as the One chooses a few individuals to rebuild Zion. Going from 5 or 6 to 250,000 would take more then 1 lifetime.

As for him not having nodes, not true either. His hair and clothes cover them. We know he was part of the matrix until he was 12 or something because he said about not sleeping that he slept the first 12 years of his life. Hence in the Matrix...

I posted about the idea of someone in zion being the one or one of the 23 who have been chosen to rebuild zion, and for some reason the idea that you had to come from 23 to 250.000 in one lifetime sounds indeed a bit strange. Even if you consider the fact that some people get saved from the matrix. i'm going to go see it again tomorrow afternoon and i'll pay a lot of attention to some of the things that have been discussed on this board.

youvce seen the mvie 3 times?!?!?!?!?!?! gahhh that so unbeliveable ive seen it once and ive already sworn never to see the movie again.

Your right about Hamaan saying he already slept the first twelve years of his life. I forgot about that, lol. But, they do clearly show the back of his head and no node is their. I guess they would explain it saying his hair covers his up but neo has just as much hair and you can see his...

Anyhow thanks for pointing that out.

Neosynthesis, I misread a lot of what you posted last night. My bad. I still stand by many of my points.

I still think Hamaan knew the previous One. His age is about right.

Neo pegged the Oracle and Seraph as programs, as stated in the transcript I quoted.

The Architect was insulted by Neo referring to the intuitive program as an "oracle."

What I meant by fabrication was when you conjectured that the Oracle is telling Neo that somehow machines and humans must find peace. It's just not there, between the lines or otherwise. The Oracle's interest in the future is merely her interest in fulfilling her purpose. She can't even execute her function as a program without humans such as Morpheus, Trinity and Neo participating. That's all she meant.

Last film = previous, not next. This is where you confused me
:rolleyes:

Hard to tell which part of Neo caused Smith to change, but I maintain that Smith has a portion of all of Neo's Matrix-self, which includes anomolous code and free will. Further, Smith no longer has a purpose within the Matrix as he states before fighting Neo: "We are here because of you Mr. Anderson. We're here to take from you what you tried to take from us. Purpose." Neo on the other hand is clearly tied into the machine code via Smith. Smith injected his machine-based code into Bane, and Bane was knocked out. Neo has part of Smith's machine code, and he was also knocked out. His will targeted the machine code that operates the Sentinels. That's what he does - manipulate code. It backfired on him. It's as clear as daylight to me.

It is the agents who deploy the Sentinels, much the same way the ships deploy the jacked humans, sending and receiving instructions from both sides. For the first time, we see what the Sentinels experience when shut down, through the passing out of Bane and Neo.

I agree Neo shouldn't have gotten cut in the first place, but I really don't think this is of any consequence. One possible explanation is that he lost something to Smith in the merging.

The Bomb. Here's another place I misunderstood you. I thought you were talking about the bomb that hit the Nebuchadnezzer, hehe. Neo WAS impervious to the Bomb. He flew out of it no problem. Trinity jumped into the Matrix because the other ship was attacked and the jacked crew did not finish shutting down the power grid, which would have prevented Neo from reaching the Architect. I didn't think it was a matter of whether or not Neo would survive the bomb.

Sorry for my confusing replies last night. I need to slow down! :)

neo isn't invincible, so I don't know where you guys got that.

NEO IS NOT THE ANOMALY
the anomaly is "choice".. the anomaly is the fact that everyone is allowed to make choices whitin the matrix. This causes the matrix to be inpredictable, as you can not perfectly predict what choices will be made, though you can influence people... so it is controllable. If there would be no choice for the people connected to the matrix... the world would be perfectly predictable... a harmony of mathematical precision... everything that would happen in the matrix would be defined in the equations of its creation... but people could not accept that program... so choice had to be added... destroying perfection... creating flucuations in even the simplest equations. Neo is not the anomaly... and this thing about 'fluctuations in even the simplest equations' has nothing to do with the powers of Neo. You should go and see Reloaded another time and listen more carefully to the conversation with the architect, cause he states these things quite literally.

you are forgetting one thing. the agents refer to neo as the anamoly. lol - good job

he slept for the 1st 11 years of his life and because of that fact he despises sleeping more than a few hours a night which shows the councilor to be a free'd mind just like neo


neo doesn't follow the rules of the matrix, and there in lies the paradox of agent smith. when he tried to destroy agent smith his very contact with a program based on his limitation of programing was forever changed by neo's mind

the next movie will undoubtedly be about stopping the sentinals from reaching zion but the more dangerous possibility of allowing agent smith to completely take over the matrix and then in time take over all the control of the sentinals and then all hell will break loose since agent smith is unbalanced and unpredicatble because of his altered programming from being changed by neo

hmm... Terikan... i've never heard the agents refer to neo as the anomaly actually... can you give me a specific scene where they do so?... and the architect clearly states that it is the fact that people are given a choice that creates an anomaly. So somehow it would surprise me if you'd be right.

first fight scene

"It's the anamoly (not sure how to spell this exactly)"

"do we proceed?"

"yes"

"he is still"

"only human"

*fight scene ensues.*

Originally posted by lEgo
NEO IS NOT THE ANOMALY
the anomaly is "choice".. the anomaly is the fact that everyone is allowed to make choices whitin the matrix. This causes the matrix to be inpredictable, as you can not perfectly predict what choices will be made, though you can influence people... so it is controllable. If there would be no choice for the people connected to the matrix... the world would be perfectly predictable... a harmony of mathematical precision... everything that would happen in the matrix would be defined in the equations of its creation... but people could not accept that program... so choice had to be added... destroying perfection... creating flucuations in even the simplest equations. Neo is not the anomaly... and this thing about 'fluctuations in even the simplest equations' has nothing to do with the powers of Neo. You should go and see Reloaded another time and listen more carefully to the conversation with the architect, cause he states these things quite literally. I gotta say at first it was difficult to argue against your claim, especially when considering the Architect's words: "Which brings us, at last, to the moment of truth. Wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed and the anomaly revealed as both beginning and end." The fundamental flaw ultimately expressed being choice.

The foundation of your argument seems based on the First Matrix, made flawless and sublime. It didn't allow for choice - it was made up entirely of machine/program logic. Applying this control to humans was severely flawed. Therefore the Architect designed it based on human history... Matrix versions 2 through 6 allowed for choice.

Architect: "The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect. It was a work of art. Flawless, Sublime. A Triumph equaled only by it’s monumental failure. The inevitability of it’s doom is apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being. Thus I redesigned it based on your history. To more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection." con't: "As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99% of all test subjects accepted the program as long as they were given a choice."

The Architect had already provided exceptions for those who chose not to conform to the Matrix, starting with Matrix v2.0.

The anomoly, while being spawned by choice, isn't choice itself. It's the "cause and effect" of choice - that is the anomoly. That is the language machines understand, cause and effect. The Matrix cannot decifer this cause and effect because it cannot predict the outcome when decided by humans, but it does allow for choice.

The Architect handles this by casting those who don't conform into Zion until One who carries "the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the matrix" ... "returns to the source allowing a temporary dissemination of the code" whereby the Matrix can be redesigned to handle the newly acquired anomolous code. In the meantime, all of the parts of the code, those living in Zion, need to be destroyed so that no remaining bit of anomolous data exists.

Now we're just playing word games.

Not only do the agents refer to Neo as "the anomaly" but the architect does too:

"...You are the eventuality of an anomaly, which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. ..."

"Eventuality" means "real-life example".

I think that as a whole the movie "IMHO" is and was meant to be a nonstop thrill ride, even with the eye candy for girl matrix fans of seeing neo and trinity during the sex scene w/ the trance music and rave goin on in the temple of zion

but.....

i think this is also a transitional movie or a setup to the 3rd movie, the 1st movie is all slow and boring at first, neo being unplugged and then taking in the truth of the matrix and hte real world

the 3rd undoubtedly will be about neo overcoming his limitations of the real world mentality and deciding how best to do away with agent smith and the sentinals. but thats easier said than done.

thats all i have to say

steps off soap box....


Purpose Choice Causality,

blah blah blah,
ur just a program,
i'm real
narnee narnee narnee.... "rasberries"

hey mariner evenuality is Something that may occur; a possibility.
and since him being the one occured it was a possiblity from an anomaly

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Neosythesis
[B]I was watching for things I thought to look for after reading some replies to posts I made and posts others made.

Someone said the council member Neo spoke with when he couldnt sleep could be the ONE from before Neo. He doesnt have any ports to jack into the matrix so that cannot be the case. They clearly show the back of his head close up in the film


i am pretty sure the council member does have plugs, you can barely see them under his hair but they are there. i think he even makes reference to being in the matrix. as far as him being the the previous "one" he would have to be hundreds of years old. i am about 97% sure of my statement so somebody help me out.

Originally posted by lEgo
NEO IS NOT THE ANOMALY


I resent that. :D

sorry, that came across worse on screen then it did in my head

lol that wuz mean man.. funny as hell but mean!

Originally posted by lEgo
NEO IS NOT THE ANOMALY
the anomaly is "choice".. the anomaly is the fact that everyone is allowed to make choices whitin the matrix..... {excerpted}

To be accurate, the Architect said to Neo that he (Neo) was the result of the remaineder of an unbalanced equation (which in part defines the Matrix).

And the Agent's refer to him as the "anomoly", but I think that the his threat to the Matrix is that his ability to "choose" and manipulate the matrix has been somehow used or taken by former agent Smith.

Smith's uncontrolled hacking of the Matrix system applications (other Agents & the avatars of Humans) threatens to destory the matrix, or at least to cosume thos AIs that exist inside the matrix.

I wonder a little about the War that supposedly occurred, and the truce that was (I have read) offered by the Machines.

Is it possible that the humans accepted the truce? That is, in what was otherwise a stalemate situation back in the real world "war" (where the machines would die from lack of sunlight, but somehow be able to kill the humans), did the machines offer to let the humans live, if they would CHOOSE to live in the Matrix, and supply power to the machines?

That would seem in keeping with the theme of "choice", and also explain why the AI's tried to create a paradise for the matrix - perhaps that was part of the bargain with the humans to end the war.

I don't know... I'd love to see the Wachowski (sp?) brother's background notes for the movies, lol

Originally posted by Neosythesis
.I now agree with those that believe Mr. Smith and Neo are linked in some fashion but I do not understand it. They have given us very little to go on when it comes to this.

Yeah, the linked between smith and neo is barely talked about.
My guess is telling us how smith and neo are linked in reloaded was mainly to set us up for something big in the final matrix.

read this quote from another user, makes sense to me




Originally posted by flanish
ok, i think smith has been freed and is actually human now. he is duplicating himself and this will eventually lead to the overloading of the matrix.

i think neo is a program like the other "ones". but he is not a flaw, his purpose is different from that of the other "ones".

i think neo is the vaccine designed specifically to get rid of smith before he can destroy the matrix, then return to the matrix core to reboot the zion program again. he could not choose the door to the core (his choice was already chosen for him) because something was wrong. something was flawed.

the flaw is the anomaly

So neo is a cure for something that had not happened yet and neo caused him self?

Neo was the one before smith was destroyed and it was cause of Neo in the first place that smith is what he is today.
So how can he be a vaccine for something no one thought would happen?

This is just a theory of what could be. neo is the one, but smith is the anomally, therefore neo would save billions of humans lives.
You see the one and the anomally are 2 different entities, that would be the connection to smith and neo

read JOEFROMCHICAGO's post "the matrix is not the human minds' prison, but AI's!!" in "the oracles apartment".

i dont particually agree with him on the matrix being created to control machines, but the whole first part i agree with.

that is pretty amazing, if that is remotely accurate, it will be a huge shock in november.