The Architect and Oracle are LYING

I have read many people toy with the idea of the Architect and Oracle lying and I would argue this is most likely not the case.

My rational is not based on facts, but rathar the movie makers would create a lot of confusion if they allowed the computers to lie. If they could lie, then perhaps the agents lie, and then perhaps morpheous lied, and on and on, to the point where we loose touch with reality and become lost in conspiracy.

I think the computers may omit information, or twist. But if you look at what the Oracle told Neo in the first movie, at first it would appear she says he is not the one, but when watched again I realized a duality in her words.

HAL (not entirely relevent) from 2001 space odyssey killed his crew because he could not carry out a lie.

The Architect already described one flaw in humans: choice. Wouldn't computers consider lying another flaw as well...

while it doesn't seem likely that the oracle would be lying, it is most certain that the architect would lie. Lying is what you do to your enemies.

Originally posted by mrandersen
I have read many people toy with the idea of the Architect and Oracle lying and I would argue this is most likely not the case.

My rational is not based on facts, but rathar the movie makers would create a lot of confusion if they allowed the computers to lie. If they could lie, then perhaps the agents lie, and then perhaps morpheous lied, and on and on, to the point where we loose touch with reality and become lost in conspiracy.

I think the computers may omit information, or twist. But if you look at what the Oracle told Neo in the first movie, at first it would appear she says he is not the one, but when watched again I realized a duality in her words.

HAL (not entirely relevent) from 2001 space odyssey killed his crew because he could not carry out a lie.

The Architect already described one flaw in humans: choice. Wouldn't computers consider lying another flaw as well...

Point taken, the time AI would become dangerous or kill is when it was in danger of deleation or to be switch off. That hasn't truelly happened........................yet.

Umm, who says AI wouldn't lie? Obviously, they have emotion (Smith's "virus" scene in M1, Persephone's jealousy, etc.) In fact, the Merovingian did lie because he denied to his wife that he was messing around with the woman in the restaurant. Plus, they all have unknown agendas, and I'm sure being truthful all the time won't help them acheive those goals.

Just a thought....I don't trust those darn programs one bit (especially the Oracle!) I've said it before...I think Neo picked the exact door that he was meant to...

mr. andersen (which is actually spelled Anderson), you are like many people who are still confused with the first movie.

when the oracle says that neo is not the one, she is not lying. she is telling the truth. she says that he is waiting for his next life, which is why he dies and then comes back to life. when he comes back to life, he comes back as the one, and not mr anderson. so what she said really was not a lie because she knew that in his current life, he was not.

-Agent Smith-

Mr. Anderson!

I believe that if Agent Smith took off his ear peice in M1 to keep the other A gents from hearing what he was saying to morpheous, that AI could in fact lie. He told Morpheous that he hated the Matrix and he needed to get out, and now he is trying to take over the Matrix........ Just a thought.:rolleyes:

they're not lying...CHOICE is the only mathematical flaw...the ability to choose one configuration over another...and change the outcome. The Architect and the Oracle are simply noting this flaw in themselves..and Neo..
Neo is not "The One" if you realize that what the Oracle has said now in BOTH movies is the truth. She tells Neo he is not the one in the first movie, and in the second the Architect tells him he is an anomoly...which would grant him certain powers like the programs in the matrix, if he's not a program himself...
Consider this correlation, Smith enters the real world via Bane (Bain) and downloads himself and everything he knows of the matrix onto his brain...he has just created another anomoly...if Bain(Bane)/Smith enters the Matrix again he will have powers similar to Neo's...somewhere down the line, SOMETHING must have happened to Neo where a part of the program was downloaded onto his brain...it was Morpheus's job to find him, and help him realize this...and Morpheus himself doesn't even realize it. All a part of the prophecy which WAS NOT FULLFILLED b/c the war is not over...
that is because Neo is NOT the one...the Oracle said that "the path of the one ends" at the Architects room, the door made of light...however Neo is NOT the one so by him going there he was only going to gain the knowledge needed to realize that SMITH is in fact the one who needs to go to the room...and stop the cycle!
Its epiphany on my part i figured all this out...i'm sure i'll be slightly off on a few details, but as a whole i think i got it

i believe that one or both of them is lieing because they both have no reason to be truthful.

ok how many times do i have to say it...COMPUTER PROGRAMS CANNOT LIE...they are BOUND BY MATHEMATICAL RULES and therefore must follow what their program path tells them to do! They are all meant to do what they are all meant to do...even the Keymaker says it, the Oracle says it, Seraph in no specific words..("i protect that which matters most" meaning he just does what he's supposed to do..protect the Oracle)
open your eyes...understand more of the story, put connections from the first movie and second movie together, look it at is a whole...instead of two seperate storylines. It was written as a whole, but broken into three movies...the story itself is still a whole! Look at it as if you were reading a book and it'll make more sense for you.

uhh, seriously, that's stupid. computer programs can do whatever they want. there's nothing in these movies to suggest otherwise.

whoa! let's count to ten and take a breather.im just saying what i think no need to get all mad or anything.i was meerly stating that because it's what i believe and i know you don't think that's how it is but i do.

Originally posted by Terikan
uhh, seriously, that's stupid. computer programs can do whatever they want. there's nothing in these movies to suggest otherwise.


HAHAHAHAHAHA if you think that then you truly haven't understood anything about these movies at all!
Computer programs CANNOT do whatever they want or they would be able to destroy Zion WITHOUT the aide of "The One" making a bad choice...they NEED the mathematical equations that are produced by CHOICES to proceed in their programs...you think so liberally and unbound by the fundamentals that are essential to any artificial intelligence...they have no emtions, no feelings, and therefore no ability to make frivelous decisions or CHOICES that humans can make. Without the humans tied to their system making the choices for them, they would not be able to operate. They can influence the humans' choices by influencing their emotional ties..but they cannot rule outside of their mathematical bounds!

sereously,clam down..everyone is entitled to what they think.

Originally posted by igirl222
sereously,clam down..everyone is entitled to what they think.

who are you telling to calm down? i don't think i'm being very "uncalm" by simply stating my opinion as well...its all relevant to the topic. That post of yours was irrelevant.

yeah i guess your right.you really do have very good points about what you believe. whoa i actully think i get what your saying..

yeah, your other points are okay, but the part about machines not being able to lie is stupid.

Originally posted by MassiveDception
HAHAHAHAHAHA if you think that then you truly haven't understood anything about these movies at all!
Computer programs CANNOT do whatever they want or they would be able to destroy Zion WITHOUT the aide of "The One" making a bad choice...they NEED the mathematical equations that are produced by CHOICES to proceed in their programs...you think so liberally and unbound by the fundamentals that are essential to any artificial intelligence...they have no emtions, no feelings, and therefore no ability to make frivelous decisions or CHOICES that humans can make. Without the humans tied to their system making the choices for them, they would not be able to operate. They can influence the humans' choices by influencing their emotional ties..but they cannot rule outside of their mathematical bounds!

I think you need to get a clue. Go look up neural networks and genetics algorithms and then get back to me about computers not being able to learn or go outside of their "mathematical equations." If the machines can write programs themselves, why couldn't they write programs that lie when they need to? You'r claims are groundless.

I actually think that the Oracle is on the side of the machines. Her role is to find the One and guide him to the source. The thing is that the machines felt that the probability of him selecting the source was higher then him selecting Trinity. This is where the machines failed because of human choice. But it's not as if a human could have made a better guess.

oh for crying out loud...tell me then how do MATHEMATICAL EQUATIONS LIE? Lying is a HUMAN quality....its a deception...something driven by emotion and human nature...MACHINES, COMPUTER PROGRAMS cannot grasp this..they can create illusions of reality (the matrix itself) but they cannot create programs that "LIE" to the humans...the only thing they could do is create a program with limited information about the mainframe and how the matrix works itself...less powerful programs, ones that do their job and blend in...but programs like Merevingian and Oracle are there b/c they were written to give certain information...its what they were "meant to do" and that does not include making up LIES as they go to purposefully decieve Neo or anyone else. They just do what they are programed to do. The greatest saying about computers is this:
"Computers are only as dumb as the user..."
think about that and get off your high horse.

machines can lie, but that isn't why i'm posting this time.

what if the architect is a human? then he could definitely lie. they could just force a human to read a script to neo lol.

by the way, in Terminator 2, the T-1000 lies to john connor. You can say 'that's just a movie', but hey, so is this.

Originally posted by Terikan
by the way, in Terminator 2, the T-1000 lies to john connor. You can say 'that's just a movie', but hey, so is this.
yes but this movie has made it abuntantly clear that its a computer program based on our present computer program rules...that we live with now, in our world...such as the computer i am online with typing this response.
terminator was based on computers creating artificial intelligence...not an alternate world for the humans to live, but to destroy the humans altogether...can't compare the two storylines at all.

And my mom made a good point, on a different topic..but this storyline totally did what the movie Tron and the books "The Illuminaty" did only MUCH more ellaborate...
and its like this is the type of thing George Lucas tried to go for with Star Wars but just totally missed....(different stories, but same type of futuristic feel) where Lucas failed in story developement, the Wach Bros totally made up for and ran with....they're writing/filmmaking geniouses.
When you look at the two films so far...story wise it flows like a really good novel...details come together that make you go "ohhhh i get it!" just as if you were reading a book...i think the reason so many people aren't grasping the fundamental story is b/c they are so caught up in the visual aspects...it kinda messes with you...you have to see it multiple times to be able to seperate the visual from the visceral.

Originally posted by MassiveDception
oh for crying out loud...tell me then how do MATHEMATICAL EQUATIONS LIE? Lying is a HUMAN quality....its a deception...something driven by emotion and human nature...MACHINES, COMPUTER PROGRAMS cannot grasp this..they can create illusions of reality (the matrix itself) but they cannot create programs that "LIE" to the humans...the only thing they could do is create a program with limited information about the mainframe and how the matrix works itself...less powerful programs, ones that do their job and blend in...but programs like Merevingian and Oracle are there b/c they were written to give certain information...its what they were "meant to do" and that does not include making up LIES as they go to purposefully decieve Neo or anyone else. They just do what they are programed to do. The greatest saying about computers is this:
"Computers are only as dumb as the user..."
think about that and get off your high horse.

I think you need to learn a little more before you go off spouting your mouth. Here's a simple bit of logic.

If the machines are able to learn, then why would they be limited in what they can learn? Didn't they figure out that human's needed choice? The problem with choice is that there are no certain probabilities. And even if the probabilities are known, then it is impossible to calculate what is going to happen.

That is why the Oracle is there. If humans are told that you don't have a choice, you already made it, you need to figure out why, then that makes it easier for the machines, doesn't it? The probability that Neo will not choose the source is lessened because he is told he doesn't have a choice.

Randomness is the problem. Humans can change their mind at any given moment. That is what the machines had such a hard time dealing with. That is why the Oracle is there.

You see, I can lie all the time if I wanted to. If I knew something was the truth, I can ALWAYS tell you the opposite of the truth. I can program a computer to do the same. Have you ever written a program in your life? I can write you pseudo code right now that will prove that I can program a machine to lie.

SET GLOBAL X = 1

PROCEDURE USER REQUESTS X
{
IF(X EQUALS 1)
PRINT "X = 2"
ELSE
PRINT "X = 1"
}

The only thing that computers need to worry about is the probability of them lying. In essence, what is the probability that my lie will lead to the end result of Neo returning to the source.

Go read a book!

Originally posted by DNT5
mr. andersen (which is actually spelled Anderson

No, my name is Tom B Andersen... A freakish coincidence, and I realize that Neo is Thomas B Anderson.

Originally posted by defpearlpilot
I think you need to learn a little more before you go off spouting your mouth. Here's a simple bit of logic.

If the machines are able to learn, then why would they be limited in what they can learn? Didn't they figure out that human's needed choice?

----when was it stated that they figured out they needed choice? there were always inherent choices in the matrix, even from the first one...but it wasn't enough choices..they were all PERFECT choices and people rejected it.----

The problem with choice is that there are no certain probabilities. And even if the probabilities are known, then it is impossible to calculate what is going to happen.

----exactly...choice is the only mathematical inconsistent...i'm not arguing with you on that----

That is why the Oracle is there. If humans are told that you don't have a choice, you already made it, you need to figure out why, then that makes it easier for the machines, doesn't it? The probability that Neo will not choose the source is lessened because he is told he doesn't have a choice.

----but on the human side the oracle represents their jumpstart on making the correct choice...if they didn't know what the oracle had just told them, they wouldn't be able to act accordingly..b/c of the oracle they are able to gain knowledge they otherwise wouldn't have and make CHOICES about moves they make next...if the oracle was there just to tell them they already made the choices and theres no hope anyway, the humans would be better off just floating in the breeze and doing nothing at all----

Randomness is the problem. Humans can change their mind at any given moment. That is what the machines had such a hard time dealing with. That is why the Oracle is there.

----if the oracle is there to deal with the ones who reject the matrix...not every human goes to her, her purpose is just for those who need more answers...then she isn't LYING to them, she's doing what she's supposed to do..what she was programed to do. If she was PROGRAMED to do the opposite of what really is going on, then it is the human's perceiving it as a lie...but the oracle isn't saying one thing but knowing another as someone else in another thread thought. she is only following her program's commands. And if she is lying and on the side of the machines, why is she hiding in exile? what suddenly made her a renegade program that isn't working properly? why bother telling neo about the renegade programs and how they're supposed to go back to the source, but some hide in exile (such as Smith and herself)? think about it before counting the oracle as a bad guy----

You see, I can lie all the time if I wanted to. If I knew something was the truth, I can ALWAYS tell you the opposite of the truth. I can program a computer to do the same. Have you ever written a program in your life? I can write you pseudo code right now that will prove that I can program a machine to lie.

SET GLOBAL X = 1

PROCEDURE USER REQUESTS X
{
IF(X EQUALS 1)
PRINT "X = 2"
ELSE
PRINT "X = 1"
}

----you just said it, YOU CAN PROGRAM A COMPUTER TO DO SO...which means there must be a HUMAN influence on the Matrix in order for it to change...for it to be able to reprogram itself with each new matrix and create the lies. A computer program hacking a computer program changing things can NOT create lies. It doesn't know the truth from the lies b/c it does not have those human qualities that give us the ability to lie whenever we want to. The program, the architect, is working independently from human influence now, there is not big hand in the sky programming the architect to change things at this point, or is there? we don't know and therefore YOUR logic is skewed at this point...----

The only thing that computers need to worry about is the probability of them lying. In essence, what is the probability that my lie will lead to the end result of Neo returning to the source.

----that would imply that the human who created the matrix and the architect program that would subsequentially run and self command itself was inherently evil and was trying to destroy the humans from the beginning...how else would the machines have been programed to destroy the humans? how else would the machines know that there is a probability of lying..and failure? They had to be programmed somehow...a computer can only do what it was programed to do. Somewhere down the line there had to be a human influence to reprogram or insert more programs to govern differences between the matrixes. and there had to be a program created to tell the machines to use humans as energy sources. a program cannot create itself. it cannot write itself. it can combine with another program and make a new program, but that wouldn't create a negative effect...for example:
Program A says to display the color blue
Program B says to display the color red
they combine codes and now the new program displays Blue and Red at the same time, not Green or Yellow, which would be a computerized lie. if the code isn't present for Green or Yellow, it cannot be magically created out of code for red and blue!----

Go read a book!

oops: Thomas > A < Andersen ...

terminator was based on computers creating artificial intelligence...not an alternate world for the humans to live, but to destroy the humans altogether...can't compare the two storylines at all.

That makes no sense at all. They are both exploring the world of AI, and AI can lie. Say it with me "AI can Lie!" "AI can Lie!"

Very good!

The Architect is not just a bit, is he? He created The Matrix, (or so he says... he could be lying :rolleyes: ). Anyway, programs be created with the capability to lie, as defpearlpilot has already stated. They can also be created to improve themselves. So even if one of these programs was incapable of lying, they could add code to themselves, letting them lie... I think. Im not sure if i've just stepped into a paradox about the Architect lying about creating The Matrix... :confused:

Originally posted by Terikan
That makes no sense at all. They are both exploring the world of AI, and AI can lie. Say it with me "AI can Lie!" "AI can Lie!"

Very good!

AI CANNOT LIE!!! look at DATA from Star Trek the Next Generation, even though he could experience emotions thanks to a special chip he could not have the HUMAN ability to lie. HUMANS can PROGRAM a computer and AI to know things that aren't true, but the machines themselves cannot independently come up with falsities...

I'm sure I saw a film once where a Computer that could improve itself infitessimally decided that Humans were irrelevant and tried to kill them all. Ill get back to it, when or if I remember it ;)

Originally posted by MassiveDception


Ok, you might be a little slow. If the machines didn't write programs, then who did?? If they didn't write the Matrix then who did? Are you saying the human's enslaved themselves. That they wrote the Matrix for fun?

OK, now that we have the prepostorous notion out of the way, I think we can agree that the machines programmed the matrix and that they can write other programs. Therefore, they can write programs that lie albeit much more sophisticated then my example.

I don't know who to more clearly explain this to you but... The problem the machines have with choice is that they cannot predict what people will do. They can only program responses. When you yourself, possibly one day write a program, you will find that a small percentage of programming is actually performing the task while the rest of it is handling errors and exceptions. If you KNOW that operations A, B, and C ARE GARAUNTEED to happen, they you don't need to worry about failures or the possibility of them. Your job is MUCH easier.

The problem is scaling. Consider the computing power to model the real world anyway. It's incredible. I can't even percieve it and I'm a programmer. These machines are adding humans to the matrix every day. Additionaly people that make choices. Choices that impact every one else. The power required to process all of it would grow exponentially.

Which is why I feel the Oracle is their measure of control. If she makes the humans trust her, then they think that there is no choice other then to do what she says. Even though the Merovingian seemed inherantly more evil, he was probably on their side more then they thought. It was the why that was important. Why did they need to go to the source? What is really in their favor or was it because the machines needed them to? Hell, maybe the machines didn't even need Neo to return.

It was probably their attempt at a trap. Consider that the source is where rogue or obsolete programs go for deletion. If Neo went to the source, would he not be "deleted?" Then who would be left to fight against the agents and such? It's totally probable that the Oracle was lying or leading them to their doom.

Lol MassiveDception, that's just nonsense (no offense intended.) An intelligent computer will realize very early in it's life that telling the truth is not always in it's best interests. Therefore, it will lie, if it is in it's best interests.

Oh, and citing an example from another Hollywood production isn't very strengthening evidence.

I totally agree with your statement.

Originally posted by Kumi
The Architect is not just a bit, is he? He created The Matrix, (or so he says... he could be lying :rolleyes: ). Anyway, programs be created with the capability to lie, as defpearlpilot has already stated. They can also be created to improve themselves. So even if one of these programs was incapable of lying, they could add code to themselves, letting them lie... I think. Im not sure if i've just stepped into a paradox about the Architect lying about creating The Matrix... :confused:

I think this is what I was referring to when I originally started this thread. Opening the possibility of the Architect lying some of the time (as oppsed to all the time <- that would be easy to identify), we no longer have any basis to reason from. How would you know what is a lie and what is not? ... It would make the movie so confusing that I would toss it aside as a bunch of rubbish and mind games. The movie would loose it's depth ...

Can AI lie, I don't know... But I am certain they do not lie in the movie ... only fail to tell the complete story perhaps. This is just my opinion.

Do AI lie in other movies? Perhaps .... but they probably aren't as complex as them Matrix trology.

What did the architech actually say was beyond the two doors? Did this neo pick the same doors as the other six?

I think he did. Surely the architect wouldn't let there be a deviation from one matrix to the next.

Originally posted by MassiveDception
ok how many times do i have to say it...COMPUTER PROGRAMS CANNOT LIE...they are BOUND BY MATHEMATICAL RULES and therefore must follow what their program path tells them to do! They are all meant to do what they are all meant to do...even the Keymaker says it, the Oracle says it, Seraph in no specific words..("i protect that which matters most" meaning he just does what he's supposed to do..protect the Oracle)
open your eyes...understand more of the story, put connections from the first movie and second movie together, look it at is a whole...instead of two seperate storylines. It was written as a whole, but broken into three movies...the story itself is still a whole! Look at it as if you were reading a book and it'll make more sense for you.

You can say it as many times as you want but that still doesn't mean it is true....

I think you're making a huge assumption that the AI would be bound by mathematical rules and therefore would have to be truthful. If they are intellligent, self-aware programs, with their own goals, they may need to lie. They do what they are meant to do (why wouldn't it include lying?)

I suspect what they are meant to do is challenge Neo into believing what they need him to believe in order for him to make choices that will keep him on the path (the Oracle and the keymaker are !meant to direct Neo to the architect and to the choice that they know he will make.)

Your interpretation of "I protect what matters most" seems very assumptive as well. What matters most may not be the Oracle per se, but the integrity of the Matrix and the path of the One.

Food for thought...I could be wrong

Originally posted by Theta
You can say it as many times as you want but that still doesn't mean it is true....

I think you're making a huge assumption that the AI would be bound by mathematical rules and therefore would have to be truthful. If they are intellligent, self-aware programs, with their own goals, they may need to lie. They do what they are meant to do...

I suspect what they are meant to do is challenge Neo into believing what they need him to believe in order for him to make choices that will keep him on the path (the Oracle and the keymaker are !meant to direct Neo to the architect and to the choice that they know he will make.)

And the comment "I protect what matters most" could mean something completely different. What matters most may not be the Oracle per se, but the integrity of the Matrix and the path of the One.

Food for thought...I could be wrong

Very nice!

Back to the original point. Do we remember that when they are about to board the neba', neo is handed the spoon that he bent in the oracles apartment in M1? What does this signify? Is it supposed to reafirm our, and neos, faith in the work of the oracle, and in the oracle herself?

After all she is harbouring what she calls 'potentials', one of whom we know makes it out, hence the spoon.

Who knows. I trust the oracle despite evidence to the contrary.

harlequin.

I think they are telling the truth and they are all going to die

"----that would imply that the human who created the matrix and the architect program that would subsequentially run and self command itself was inherently evil and was trying to destroy the humans from the beginning"

the way i understood it machines created the matrix

"a program cannot create itself. it cannot write itself"

in the m2 it spoke of certain programs not obeying their written rules, thus the ghost and werewolfs. who is to say a program didnt learn how to write other programs

lol