Neurological Warfare

Okay. At band camp, I was discussing this device used by disabled people to control computers using their minds. It got on to implanting viruses in the brain, painless death, mind control, cancelling brain waves, sudden death...you get the picture. What do you think?

-Snoopy

1.) Never start a thread with "at band camp..." It causes the reader to immeadiately lose concentration.

2.) What would the point be of brain-control torture? There's so many more entertaining forms of destroying people.

Well, PP, wouldn't it be entertaining to torture someone by finding what parts of their brain correspond to what actions, and watch them convulse on the floor shouting out random words before you kill off their brain stem completely? Not to mention that it could come at the moment they least expect it.

-Snoopy

No.












(wonders if this thread should not be fused to the "idiocy in this world" thread...)

Oh brain control will certainly eventually come along, the only question is when, and to what extent the government will use it to control our lives further.

A friend of mine and I had a similar discussion. He is very knowledgeable; his IQ is near or at genius level. It was quite interesting, really. He gave me some new information as to suggestion, mind control, battlefield uses, brain viruses, etc. We could possibly do that with little or no advances in technology.

-Snoopy

Brain viruses

Brain viruses? Well, this 'knowledgeable' 'IQ genius level' doesn't know much about the human brain, apparantly. The blood brain barrier makes it incredibly difficult for substances to enter the brain. Glucose, for example, couldn't enter the brain if it wasn't for special protein's in the blood brain barrier to enter it.
Aside from that, inside the brain, there is a special immune system. It is able to delay the progession of viruses to a near halt, meaning that viruses don't have a chance of spreading. Herpes, for example, when having entered the brain, can spread to the body at a later age, when one appears to have been cured, because no white blood cells can enter the brain to destroy the viruses.
After all, the brain can't afford to loose cells to viruses. White blood cells basically destroy the cell that is carrying the virus. Brain cells can't have that happening to them. Too precious.

Battlefield uses

Battlefield uses? Nonsense. Ask someone from the military how long it takes to overrun a situation. There isn't enough time to release a virus/substance to neutralise the opponent. Use of gas in the war is only handy if you are trying to exterminate a populace, or when your enemy is located in a specific location for a long duration. In our current terrorist/information-warfare, such tactics are insufficient, inefficient, and way too expensive.

Mind control

You can't control the minds of people. It's a pity, but it's impossible. You'll have more success manipulating someone into believing something than trying to control his mind with substances. That said, there are ways to make someone trust you more, but if you tell him 'you'll kill his wife if he doesn't help you', he'll probably be inclined to help you too, and it'll probably be more ethical as well.

Sudden death

Define death. Brain death? That'll be tricky. There are few ways that I know of that can accomplish sudden death. Focusing on the heart is a better bet.

brain waves

Despite what Star Trek has led some people to believe, the brain does not operate on waves, it operates on fluctuation of ions. 'Brain waves' are a supposed side-effect, and cancelling them out is like cancelling out the light of the sun, and expecting it to blow up. You'll just be blocking the light, not destroying the sun.

We know what part of the brain corresponds to what function, but what do you want to do with it? There are no biological agents that can just go to one of the brain sections and destroy it. "Randomly spouting words" would be a very difficult job, and although not impossible to achieve, would, I think require billions to create a working bacteria/agent to create such an effect. Now, that would just be the creation of 'randomly spouting words', and it might take days/weeks for the effect to take.. effect, and would probably kill someone for years after.

You can of course also let someone overdose on cocaine or something like that, but I doubt that is what you are interested in. After all, none of this ever seems to come in touch with reality.

Mr U

Wow! Thank you, HomoUniversalis. This was information I did not know. We do not know much about the brain. However, one time the said friend had nothing better to do, so he looked up some random information. He found some research (which I don't know if it is true or not; I haven't seen it myself) indicating that the human thought process occurs at 6 Hz; the vital functions occur at a slightly lower frequency. My friend says that if you broadcast an EM beam ag that frequency, it would stop anyone in reach from thinking. You could then, given the proper code, implant ideas into the mind of someone being beamed to (or stop the basic thought processes at the lower frequency). This I am a bit skeptical on. You can get 6 Hz from an electrical connection to a speaker (or so says this friend's father, who works with the electronics department at our church). Why doesn't that stop anyone from thinking? But, if correct, it might have some connections to the technology that the Machines used to keep people in the Matrix...
In any case, randomly spouting words happens with some people with brain tumors. Also note that he did not say each of those things was possible; rather he gave me information as to uses, statistical odds, etc. For example, he stated problems with the brain-virus. But I do thank you for your comments.

-Snoopy

What problems did he state with the brain-virus? Enthrall me with his acumen.

What does 6 Hz mean? Hz means frequency. If this information is accurate, I have a book a meter away, but I'm too lazy to look it up, it means that information is passed 6 times per second. Ergo, your brain cells are capable of sending 6 signals per second. Now, I presume this is mHz, which seems more likely, and I think could be very possible, various diagrams coming to mind.

However, that does not mean that our brain is sending out a signal of 6 mHz, and that that signal can be altered.

I had a discussion with my teacher on this, on light. He said that you could 'cloak' objects by sending out certain frequencies to block out light. However, this would merely make the light appear black. It would not change the actual property. Your friend is full of shit, kiddo. Highly intelligent/creative people have a lot of imagination. That, coupled with limited knowledge of science, results in nonsense.

Mr U

And of course there's no way your teacher could be wrong and Snoopy's friend could be right.

Within fifty years we will be able to implant tiny nano-bots in the human veins, to simulate real experiences. Hence, a kind of mind control.

And of course there's no way your teacher could be wrong and Snoopy's friend could be right.

My course instructor, Arjan Blokland, who obtained his PhD in Psychology in 1992, and his Post-Doc in 1993 on the University of Cambridge, and whose fields of expertise include Psychopharmacology and Neuro-biology of learning and memory I believe may have more knowledge in the field of neuroscience than Snoopy's friend, yes. And, he is not my teacher. I do not have a teacher. He's there if I have questions. The rest is up to me and a library that has access to the entire works of psychology of the last 100 years.

Within fifty years we will be able to implant tiny nano-bots in the human veins

Tiny nano-bots? Nano-bots are by definition tiny. Do you even know what nano-bots are? Because they are so damned small, they can only fullfill a limited number of operations. These operations are not likely to include advanced processes that manipulate behaviour. "A kind of mind-control?"
There has been an interesting documentary avaible through the internet where a man showed a woman a voodoo doll with her wedding ring inside it, and when he tied the doll up, she was unable to move. When he showed her that he had never put the ring inside the voodoo doll, she regained control.
Mind control? It's very easy to manipulate people into doing things. But what do you want to achieve? Complete mind control? Impossible to achieve through any method as crude as nano-bots. You'll have better results, as I said before with brute intimidation or hostages.

And real experiences? We can do that now with LSD. Oh, and within fifty years? Where did you pick up that little fact?

Mr U

I read it in Time magazine. And I only said "teacher" because you said yourself "my teacher."

not exactly related to the immeadiate discussion, but what the hell:

I was reading some medical journal in a doctor's office a couple of years ago, and an article in it was discussing therapy being tried out that involved using pulsing electromagnets. The introduction said something about how you can take an electromagnet that's pulsing at a certain frequency, put it an inch and a half/behind your left ear, and slowly rotate it forward, toward your forehead. Doing so would cause your right thumb to twitch violently. Based on this principle, they were trying various methods of causing other limbs (ones previously thought to be paralized that cannot be used voluntarily) to gain movement. Sometimes it worked, other times, when the nerves were too badly damaged, it didn't.

A spin-off study was being conducted over altering a person's mental state using similar methods. They had some evidence suggesting that certain types of depression could be lessened, if not "cured" in this manner. The article went into detail about creating instant emotions through varying pulses being subjected to certain parts of the brain, although they still had only begun to chip off the very tip of the metaphorical iceburg.

This I consider dubious, PP. The only three therapies used in mainstream psychology for the treatment of depression are therapy, est, and medication.

I read it in Time magazine.

Wow. I couldn't care less. Who said it, you dope. At least PP made reference to a medical journal.

And I only said "teacher" because you said yourself "my teacher."

Whatever. That teacher studied physics on a university. We had long discussions about the implications of quantum physics, this being one of them. Silly rabbit.

Mr U

Wow. I couldn't care less. Who said it, you dope. At least PP made reference to a medical journal.

Wow. I couldn't care less.

I like the points you made, by the way, PP.

Wow. I couldn't care less.

I bet. After all, you are not at all interested in debate. You wish only to continue a ridiculous, unfounded opinion that highschool nerds talk about during breaks, ignorant of scientific basis.

I like the points you made, by the way, PP.

She didn't make any points. She made some references to an article she read. An article, I highly doubt, because the motor cortex is not in the temporal lobe, as this article would suggest, but in the frontal lobe (in the fissure seperating the frontal and parietal lobe).

Please look at this relatively familiar image.

http://www.benbest.com/science/anatmind/FigVI9.gif

We see here that leg functions, and hand functions are located near the top of the head. Not near the ears as PP's referenced article would suggest.

In line of freud, sometimes a twitch is just a twitch.

Besides, paralysis is not always the result of brain damage. It can have a large variety of reasons. And, even if the therapy worked, most of the brain functions are located in the subcortex, deep within the brain. It is not easy to manipulate that with magnetic fields.

Mr U

This picture is not familiar to me; then again, I'm only in high school. And, PP, don't worry. The information you showed is relevant to the discussion.
Yes, sometimes a twitch is just a twitch, such as in muscle spasms due to overwork or something like that.
Recent news: Implants are in human trials that may give people their motion back. I saw an article on how someone, by power of thought, move a mechanical arm, drink from a cup of water, and set it down again. This is very big. The arm is not yet practical--the man broke some of its parts when he attempted to pull-start a lawnmower--but at least the technology exists.

Side note: Please, be civil here. Just because we don't know, HomoUniversalis, doesn't mean we're stupid pond scum.

-Snoopy

eh, as I said, it was just an article that I found interesting, and that was at least two years ago. Odd, though, that they'd even conduct such in-depth seemingly ridiculous test.

doesn't mean we're stupid pond scum.

First of all, I find this very dubious when referring to Novus, to which all evidence points out that he is in fact stupid pond scum. Than, when you posted this:

viruses in the brain, painless death, mind control, cancelling brain waves, sudden death...you get the picture

I was pretty much certain that you were stupid pond scum as well.

And yes, I am aware of the technology with the moving arm. However, what does that have anything to do with neurological warfare or mind-control?

Oh, and if you don't know something, ASK. You will actually appear smarter when you ask a question about neuroscience than when you come with your completely unique and terribly special theory that people wondered about 230 years ago, and have received an answer to, approximately 60 years ago.

Considering all things, actually, I think I have been very civil here. I am the only member in this entire thread who has actually contributed to the discussion, with the exception of PP referncing to an article. What do you expect from someone who loves neuroscience when he sees it so very thoroughly raped (even the very word in the title of the thread) by someone who thinks torture is 'cool to talk about'? Novus I can understand as he suffers from mental retardation, obviously, but do you actually expect me to remain calm when I provide numerous amounts of scientifically based theory, and the only responses I get are oneliners?

If you have a belief about something in neuroscience, and are interested in professing in that belief, have some fucking DECENY, and be fucking civil about it, and read a fucking book about it. YOU, and your highly intelligent friend are the very reason our nations are going to shit. You state some bullshit fact, others believe it as being a fact, and spread their silly lies. The fable of the second law of thermodynamics being in contradiction with evolution probably finds the same source as this kind of nonsense.

You want a discussion about what is possible and what is not possible in the field of neuroscience. Fine. Ask questions, and you will receive an answer. But don't you ever try and dare launch your own theory without making bloody sure that you have at least opened a friggin' book about it. It is ignorant, it is disgusting, and it is sickening. And being in highschool is never an excuse for not doing research when you expect a debate about whatever. Goddamnit, wikipedia can supply plenty of information to get you going if you are really interested in this kind of stuff.

Of course, you are free to ignore this, and you are free to do your silly little things. But do not ever expect me to be civil until you do. I will not be civil to those who do not even understand what they are talking about. I don't care about image, and I couldn't care less whether you make a mistake or not. Remember, though, that the world is not as forgiving as I am, and that eventually, continuing this way in real life, you will fall, and you will fall real hard.

The over-imaginative become bad, tortured writers. They write the terrible books where Artificial Intelligence becomes 'conscious' and turns against mankind. They write terrible books about nano-bots making people immortal. They do this because they are not interested in artificial intelligence or nano-bots, but because they are interested in seeing how far their imagination can take them. The world, however, could care less.

Mr U

I think I smell some more pond scum. Wait, no, it's pond scum crap.

For more of my thoughts on this issue please refer to the thread of HU, please kill yourself.

Snoopy, nice attempt at being diplomatic, but it doesn't seem HU is interested in this.

Psychology has something to do with this, but I was talking about technologically controlling minds. The problems with the "brain virus" was that the "programming," as it were, of the brain is so complex that it would be virtually impossible to create an electronically-based brain virus. Yes, HomoUniversalis, if you rip me apart for that, so help me...

-Snoopy

Not virtually. It is impossible. We can not store that much information in a virus, and even if it worked and send impulses to the exact regions of the brain, which is near impossible, the virus still would be non-functional for a long time because of the special conditions within the brain.

Mr U

Exactly. That was one of the flaws pointed out.

-Snoopy

Instead of using this power to kill and virus and all that why noe use it to humilate youre foes. if you could control thier brain then just make them crap themselves or something like that.