Does God Exist?

HomoUniversalis

by chance

Nothing happened by chance. Evolution is deterministic. The difference is quite important and easy to see had you taken the time to read: Clicky! (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0451529065/qid=1121162508/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_ur_1/104-9383760-5199108?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

I have seen too many things happen in my life and in the lives of others to deny the existence of a supreme deity.

I have seen too many things happen in my life and the lives of others to belief in the existence of a supreme deity. No entity can be so malicious as to place an entity such as myself upon a world such as this.

The sad part is, veradis, is that I know the Bible as well, and probably better than mosts Christians. I know it's stories, I know its legends. There is not a single word in the Bible that convinces, since it is no argument for the existence of God. It is simply an historic argument. Based on that, the Bible, with its many translations fails heavily and thus the beliefsystem based on it, falsely called christianity (as Jesus Christ was the only Christian), has little to do with the bible or God.

In fact, with the exception of a few, most Christians are dullards. Anyone who desperately needs a belief system to cope with life or death has, overall, little artistic imagination. Sure, there are those who can do great enlightened things and still remain christian, but as a christian, the odds are against you.

I'd say definetly yes. While I do have a particular belief system in my mind, I answered the question from the perspective that I could mean something as wild and crazy as what the Matrix tries to imply (with reality being nothing but a farse) or as simple as a Creator that got bored and fell asleep at the wheel of the universe. Regardless of what God truely is, I'm convinced there must be one.

When taken into the perspective of 'Default setting: Sarcasm', it becomes a lot more pleasurable to read.

Mr U

veradis

I know that there are many hypocrites out there who call themselves Christians, and you realize that they do not know their own religion, and therefore can't be called true Christians. I don't claim to know everything about the bible, but I would like to think that I know more than several pretenders out there. Oh, and Jesus was technically a Jew, the term 'Christian' and the established religion wasn't used until years after His death.

The Bible is a historic book, and it proves the existence of God simply by what has happened in the past. Read through Isaiah, it shows nation after nation was destroyed all for God's purpose, and each nation understood that. These 'legends' (all true) are proved by more historic records than just this book. The miracles Jesus performed have also been proved through several records. And how does believing in something that offers hope and a purpose for your life make you a dullard?

Caprice

I have seen too many things happen in my life and the lives of others to belief in the existence of a supreme deity. No entity can be so malicious as to place an entity such as myself upon a world such as this.
What is so freaking bad about our reality? I happen to think life is one hell of a blessing, regardless of what "world" it is on.

In fact, with the exception of a few, most Christians are dullards.
Actually, most christians aren't actually christians (as veradis mentions). Right now I think it is estimated that there are over 500 million professing "christians" today. How many of them actually walk the walk and talk the talk of Jesus Christ? I know I don't do a particularly good job, and it is quite clear (biblicaly) to me that there will be very few saved at Judgement compared to the number of people who think they will be saved.

HomoUniversalis

Oh, and Jesus was technically a Jew, the term 'Christian' and the established religion wasn't used until years after His death.

WOW! I didn't know that. You must have 8 in your WIS and REL (=religion). Sadly, however, you are miserably wrong in your interpretation, reread, and notice I do not care when or how a term was coined. Thales was a psychologist, regardless of when the term was first used. Don't attempt to sway banter with me on etymology. I'll win, and you'll look as if you are silly. Look at the defintion, and remember what I always say: Mr U. That, or look down to the part in this post where I explain that every christian beliefs he is a true christian, while the only true Christian is Christ. You will probably misinterpret this, but that's okay. It's your right as a christian.

The Bible is a historic book, and it proves the existence of God simply by what has happened in the past. Read through Isaiah, it shows nation after nation was destroyed all for God's purpose, and each nation understood that. These 'legends' (all true) are proved by more historic records than just this book. The miracles Jesus performed have also been proved through several records.

I read them. Dan Brown is more probable and his writingstyle is more interesting. I can find several historic records that man is in fact the son of an alien. That doesn't make it true. Historic records must be seen in context and than compared. If you are a Christian, and want to remain faithful, turn away from science. It only leads to difficult controversies.

And how does believing in something that offers hope and a purpose for your life make you a dullard?

The entire point of christianity is to turn you into a dullard. In fact, you professed it just now.. 'Read this, read that.' You are blind and oblivious to your own artistic imagination and enjoying the cosmic joke.

What is so freaking bad about our reality? I happen to think life is one hell of a blessing, regardless of what "world" it is on.

That's beautiful. :'( Sadly, however, your point is one of failing. My personal filosofy is nihilism/discordianism. Blessings or curses are worthless, and so is life. The life of the many would have been easier without my existence.

Actually, most christians aren't actually christians (as veradis mentions).

Yeah, I noticed. Arrogant little person, ain't it? How beautiful that we have 'special' 'real' christians to point out the 'true' and 'real' definition of 'christian' as God really wanted it.

Right now I think it is estimated that there are over 500 million professing "christians" today.

That's beautiful! Who is making the criteria? You, or God? What? You claim to know what He wants? Arrogant human. You gonna go straight to hell. Christ teaches humility. On your knees! ON YOU KNEES, I SAY!

How many of them actually walk the walk and talk the talk of Jesus Christ?

144,000. If you feel that answer did not contribute to your overall understanding of the world, rephrase the question. Is this a rhetorical question to there is only one: You, and all the people who you like and who agree with you?

I know I don't do a particularly good job, and it is quite clear (biblicaly) to me that there will be very few saved at Judgement compared to the number of people who think they will be saved.

Wow. You sound catholic. Living a sinful life, than, at the end, bowing your head to God.

--

Casual readers: Please note that they have not replied to my reference to Darwin, and probably won't, because they have either not read it, or not read it (the last meaning they have merely looked at the words, and the context, but not seen the meaning, the implication. Not having made the attempt to form an image of the world in which God does not exist, and in which evolution is the 'truth'). It is a sad truth (hehe) that every christian is a true christian by his own regard, and that there is a small chance of a christian being a true christian by historic regard.

Thomas Aquinas, Isaac Newton.. If you can't measure up to them, don't try.

Mr U

veradis

If you are a Christian, and want to remain faithful, turn away from science. It only leads to difficult controversies.

I'm sorry, I only tried to use science and fact so that people like yourself, who only believe in something that is backed with hard, cold, tangible evidence might understand a little better. By the way, do you regard the Bible to be a factual book?

The life of the many would have been easier without my existence.

So why do you still exist?

Thomas Aquinas, Isaac Newton.. If you can't measure up to them, don't try.

Do you measure up? I'm not so sure. So stop trying.

HomoUniversalis

Do you measure up? I'm not so sure. So stop trying.

You fail to grasp my point. The point is that christians on a rare basis ever seize to be dullards. I myself am not a dullard, and so weren't Thomas Aquinas and Isaac Newton. Some people can turn Christianity into something else than dull.

I'm sorry, I only tried to use science and fact so that people like yourself, who only believe in something that is backed with hard, cold, tangible evidence might understand a little better. By the way, do you regard the Bible to be a factual book?

It presents facts yes. But it is as flawed as any other scripture, holy or not. No word can properly present reality, is thus open to interpretation, and thus an improper way for a diety to relay his religion. If God existed, he would have invented a better way to teach us.

So why do you still exist?

Good question. I do not fear death, in fact, I await it with anticipation. I do not love life.

Mr U

veradis

No word can properly present reality, is thus open to interpretation, and thus an improper way for a diety to relay his religion. If God existed, he would have invented a better way to teach us.

You are right in one aspect, multiple interpretations have proved to be disasterous over the course of time, leading to separations within the church and even fighting. But to retain our free will God had to give us something we would understand, I see no other way to do this than His written word. If God presented us with supernatural phenomena on a regular basis, actually audibly talked to us, there would be no way we could deny His existence. He lets us make the choice for ourselves through the Bible.

I do not fear death, in fact, I await it with anticipation. I do not love life.

This is what never ceases to amaze me, as I have come across many people who share your bleak outlook on life. If you have nothing to look forward to in life, no purpose to be fulfilled, why do you continue to live? Why not just get it over with now?

DonDaddy

Except the bible is not his written word. Strictly speaking, there is no such book. To make the Bible, sixty-six books are bound into one volume. These books are written by many people at different times, and no one knows the time or the identity of any author. Some of the books were written by several authors at various times. These books contain all sorts of contradictory concepts of life and morals and the origin of things. Between the first and the last nearly a thousand years intervened.

I would rather have no purpose in life then to spend it on my knees in the service of some absentee landlord who shakes his finger at me from 2000 years ago saying, 'Do it, do it and I'll fucking spank you.' I have said it before and I will say it again. Random tragedy is bad enough. But the beliefe that there is some being in the universe that has the ability to step and and prevent these tragedies at no cost to himself, yet makes a conscience decision to do nothing, that would make living in this universe unbearable. I would just go ahead and kill myself then.

veradis

"All Scripture is God-breathed, and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness."
2 Timothy 3:15-16

You are right that the books of the Bible were written at different times by different people, but each man who wrote it was inspired by God, so the words really do come from Him. We know this because the Bible says so, and because completely different types of people from different places and social standings wrote the same message, without knowledge of other writings. If you understand it, the Bible is not contradictory. And we do know who wrote almost all of the books, and roughly the time when they wrote them. Clicky! (http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-authors.html)

God allows Satan to continue 'tragedies' as a part of His plan, so that we have the free will to chose God before He comes again, because a day will come when we will all be judged based on how we faced these tragedies and temptations.

HomoUniversalis

Regarding your clicky, where are the sources of such a statement? I urged you before, and I urge all religious, abrahamic institutions to do so, ignore history. Ignore science. Religion vs history and science is conflict.

This is what never ceases to amaze me, as I have come across many people who share your bleak outlook on life. If you have nothing to look forward to in life, no purpose to be fulfilled, why do you continue to live? Why not just get it over with now?

Reversing the question, why should I? Why should I kill myself? There is no reason to. By the way, my view of life is not anymore bleak than yours, despite of your perspective. In fact, I probably live a more religious, strict and self-disciplined life than most christians. For multiple reasons, one of them being my utter regard for the beautiful near-perfection of the female body, I am celibatist. I refuse to lower the relation I have with some women, those relations that are utterly deep and utterly filosofical and let them be polluted by love or sex-drive. I am not interested in merely having a sexual relationship, so I exclude myself from sex.
I ask myself constantly that what I am doing is right, and whether there is a God. I do not have convictions, and doubt is always on my mind. I am always filled with inner conflict, and there are days that I sit in a dark corner, praying that a God does exist.

Regardless, if there is something I despise, it are clichés. Before the end, should He exist, God will either elevate me to the highest of his ranks for spitting upon clichés and doing my own thin' with all my energy, or he will curse me to the deepest corner of hell. Either way, it will say more about Him than it will about Me.

Oh, quoting the scripture and saying that that makes the scripture valid is considered folly. If you want to 'prove' that the Bible comes from God, use external sources. Than again, as I said before, stop trynig to prove it. The bible and proof are not compatible. The bible are merely words, and faith make it into something 'valuable'. Don't turn the bible into something it is not. Your religion is beautiful because you make it beautiful. Isaac Newton and Thomas Aquinas made their religion beautiful.

Divine-inspired. Ha.

Mr U

Snoopy

I believe in God because there is so much proof available to support this. I have heard numerous accounts of good things happening to Christians such as myself. Bad things must happen to everybody. My Bible teacher said: "Sometimes God brings us to the brink of disaster to get our attention." I am not the best Christian. I do not say I'm the best. God has helped my family and I through the bad times in my life.
Religion vs. Science is not necessarily conflicting. The way God created water, for instance. It is highly anomalous with heat tolerance, and cannot be compressed. Not to mention the interesting fact that it expands when frozen. Also, God put a boundary between the water of the heavens and of the earth (if I remember Genesis correctly). There is water on earth and in its atmosphere. Recent studies indicate water (at least in ice form) exists elsewhere in the Solar System (and in the Universe), not to mention the Water Canopy, which had a role in the Great Flood. The Flood would explain why most fossils appear in sedimentary rocks. Also, many if not all of the scientific values are delicately in balance. If we lived in four dimensions (or five, or two), the gravity would be inadequate for human survival. Planets would either spin into their suns or escape them.
Religion and history are not necessarily exclusive, either. There was a Greek (I do not know his name) who made an account of Jesus. Look at how the Christians have held up. For example, read the Bible (NT). If memory serves, Acts tells of how a crowd was so stirred up that they stoned Paul until they thought he was dead. He got up and walked away. Read about history, the proof lies there.
To reiterate, I believe in God because I see that it is the only real way. Look at it. Could all this happen by chance? (The chances of Evolution happening are so outrageously small that it is below the threshold that scientists generally consider as "zero probability".)
End of line.

-Snoopy

ThereIsNoMatrix

For all of you denying evolution (without intelligent design) due to a high improbablity... Well... Quite frankly, you're full of it. No one can calculate the probablity of abiogensis any more than you can calculate the chances of a random person winning a rigged lottery, or the odds of rolling 6 on a die with an unknown number of faces and numbers on it. Abiogenesis isn't random; it's deterministic. Furthermore, just because you falsely believe evolution is improbable, what makes creation or intelligent design so probable? No one knows who the creator is, how this creation would work, or what it would involve. It can't even be counted as a possibility, let alone be calculated relative to probability. If you allow yourself to throw in completely unexplained and untestable events as explanations for phenomena, why not say that airplanes fly because angels lift them from the ground towards the heavens?

FoolOnTheHill

I have stopped discussing these things with the self righteous dullards ... that angel argument wont work at all you know? Wonders are only wonders if the church says so. Anyway they will probably argue that they have got something the "angels" have not... a soul and their own free will (somehow I doubt that they do by the way ... they are doing their best to replace the latter by the words of an old book and of other people aka Pope, priests, and so on and are proud of it. They are only ashamed when the they fail to do so).

Btw ...actually we all really have something the angels have not... a body. I'm going to make mine happy with some morning coffee and croissants now. :D

As for the existence of god, I dont know if he/she/it exists or not but I sincerely do hope that if he/she/it/whatever does he wont be anything like what people be they christian, muslim, jew think him to be. I look forward to what happens after death as well, I'm a curious person. Life is a big adventure and death and birth are part of it. If I disappear after my death I wont care and if I continue in another form it will be all new and interesting...

ThereIsNoMatrix

Mmm, of course the angel thing doesn't work... It was a little analogy used to prove a point. Wasn't meant to be taken any further, lol.

veradis

First of all HU, I commend you on your celibacy; that is a difficult task to undertake no matter what religion you follow, believe me, I know. And I am glad you avoid cliches, I don't think any religion or denomination has everything perfectly right, I am Baptist because my beliefs are closest to that group, but we still disagree on some points. HU, I have tried using the way I believe the Bible to be true, by faith, to explain things to you, and also outside sources, but apparently you have already made up your mind. I have doubts of my own sometimes, but some things just can't be explained or completely proven in this life.

TINM, intelligent design is probable to us believers because there is a being guiding everything going on. It is not accidental, or even deterministic, it is all done with a specific purpose. That seems a lot more probable to me. These phenomena that you mention sometimes cannot be explained by science or by humans trying to interpret God's ways and purposes, but we at least have faith that a just and loving God knows more than us, and controls it all.

HomoUniversalis

I have not made up my mind. I simply believe to much in myself to believe in God. Even if he existed, and appeared before me, and said that he was the Christian God, and by living the way I live now, I would go to hell, I would still continue to live like this.

explained by science

Everything is explained by science, and evolution is not improbable. Both are fairytales made up by Christians, repeated so often even non-Christians are starting to believe them. You know something that hasn't been explained by science? Present it.
You believe evolution is improbably, supply the correct calculation that proves it.

I shouldn't, but I am going to anyway:

Imagine I go to a restaurant, which my friend insisted was great. There, I meet the most intelligent and beautiful woman in existence. We talk, we fall in love, we marry, and we have a child. What is the chance, that both of our lives should just turn and twist in such a fashion that we both would end up there (let alone like each other)? My friend had to tell me about the restaurant, my friend had to had been to the restaurant, et cetera. In fact, me ever meeting a single women, a single person is highly improbable. And yet, it happens. It happens because no event should be considered loose of it's surroudings. Those that believe evolution is 'improbable' have a limited understanding of statistics. Again, read Darwin's the origin of species. He explains it far more nicer than me.

Mr U

ThereIsNoMatrix

What makes intelligent design more probable than the stories in Greek and Roman mythology? Or aliens creating us? Religion is merely an explanation for the unexplainable. Elder generations did not possess the tools and knowledge to logically deduce why rain storms came and destroyed their year's crops. To satisfy their need for an answer, they assumed that the god of rain was upset with them and expressing his displeasure. If you told them meteorological conditions produced a hurricane or tornado right on their crops, they'd look at you as if you were insane. In the same way, we must not leap over logic to conclude that evolution is the result of intelligent design.

Again, since there's absolutely no way to calculate the probability of abiogenesis, it's absurd to assume that it's less probable than intelligent design.

Snoopy

Intelligent design shows the purpose behind everything that would have had to happen "just so" in order to be in the delicate position of being in "normalcy," if I may use that word.
Also, it should be noted that there are two kinds of evolution: Small "e", which is a generation-to-generation change, and big "E", Darwin's theory. I wouldn't have known this if I hadn't read...clicky! (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0849935830/qid=1121473093/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-6640866-4698218?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)
End of line.

-Snoopy

ThereIsNoMatrix

Reading level: Ages 9-12

Glad to see you've done your homework. 192 pages is a lot for 4th graders. I hope there were a lot of pictures.

Again... tell me how you know Evolution is so improbable? Tell me what makes intelligent design probable at all.

HomoUniversalis

Also, it should be noted that there are two kinds of evolution: Small "e", which is a generation-to-generation change, and big "E", Darwin's theory.

Indeed it should be noted. It should also be noted that that is absolute bullshit, as it's part of the same thing.

Sadly, some people have misinterpreted my intent with the "clicky's" to amazon. The concept was not to be witty, or to back up my argumentwith literature, but to allow people an entry into the world of evolution (or discordianism in another thread).

BTW: http://www.thebricktestament.com/

Mr U

Snoopy

It is not necessarily the same thing. Humans (this is the only way I can say this) only make more humans, just as a bird makes only a bird. A robin can't lay an egg and come out with a silver fire-breathing bird. That's impossible. Robins making robins is little "e" evolution, the only kind that works. BTW, I got that book from my teacher five years ago.
Anyway, look at all of the things that have had to be just so in order for us to live, such as the values of the constants. If some were just one part in an extremely small amount, we could not exist.
IF THERE IS NO GOD...
...the Bible is untrue
...truth and love do not exist
...nothing is "wrong," so we have no conscience
However, since I believe God does exist...
...the Bible is true
...truth and love are real
...there are spiritual and moral rights and wrongs
Just something from my 6th grade teacher.
End of line.

-Snoopy

HomoUniversalis

Had (s)he been my six grade teacher, I would have laughed at him/her.

the Bible is untrue

Yep. Shocking but probably true. Remember, I'm not here to comformt you and tuck you back into that nice bed 'we' (the evil people) so utterly despise. It's time to wake up from the dream, sneo.

truth and love do not exist

Ha! I don't believe in God, and yet I can't think of anyone, aside from DD who loves himself more. Fact is, DD doesn't believe in God either as far as the cavity search reveealed, so there goes that theory.
Truth? You want to know what truth is? Truth is that little fly on the toilets. It's impossible to hit it right, even for the best pissers. Don't matter though, because, eventually, we are out of urine, and it's time to leave the bathroom.

nothing is "wrong," so we have no conscience

Conscience is overrated. And no, that's not just the catchphrase of most evil villains. Do you even know what conscience is? It's the awareness that you are doing something that can be punished. Conscience is a defensive method that makes sure that when you do something morally objectionally (as we are a natural group animal), you cover up. It's nature's way of telling us that it doesn't give a shit whether we are nice to the rest, as long as we reproduce.

Morals? I have morals. I am in touch with my morality. I, however, do not believe mere simple rules can dictate a succesful way of living. Would you call this society succesful? Reasonable, perhaps? Look at our laws. Look and see the complexity of the rules we require to live together. The bible is too bloody thin to contain anything remotely useful.

Without God no morals? What an insult! The laws of your God are broken constantly. I adhere to rules I follow. If you are my friend, you can bet I will go down in flames before betraying a friend. Again, if he sends me to hell, it'll say more about him than about me. At least I'm not a pretentious dullard.

Mr U

FoolOnTheHill

Glad to see you've done your homework. 192 pages is a lot for 4th graders. I hope there were a lot of pictures.

Actually Amazon says: Reading level: Ages 4-8... well done Snoopy. Does Charlie Brown turn up in this book too?

TINM: I'm more for the cosmic muffin or the ineffable pumpkin personally than for the Alien X-Files theory. Anyway if you have seen Alien versus Predator (really awful junk btw) you know that it's the predators that keep us like cattle for the bad Alien snakethingies lmao. No better, I say, it's the greek that had the right instinct for this, one god for every thing and lets make them up as we go. As they were really incredibly funny liars (just look at Homer's Iliad) they had the right instinct for the cosmic joke our universe is...

:D

HU: LMFAOROTF at the Brick Testament!

Veradis: I respect your faith, just dont try to back it up with science... you wont be able to and Snoopy...be happy in your faith and act on it and live your life following the words of your god amen and gloria in excelsus deo... just dont try to convince others... you're really bad at it :rolleyes:

veradis

Creation can be backed by science. Just talk to my good friend Ken Ham the Dinosaur Man:
Why this debate doesn't work (http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v22/i1/creation.asp)
Proof of God (http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v20/i3/answer.asp)
Probability of Evolution (http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/re2/chapter9.asp)

For more just take a look around at www.answersingenesis.org

DonDaddy

I do not pretend to be able to prove that there is no God. I equally cannot prove that Satan is a fiction. The Christian god may exist; so may the gods of Olympus, or of ancient Egypt, or of Babylon. But no one of these hypotheses is more probable than any other: they lie outside the region of even probable knowledge, and therefore there is no reason to consider any of them.

This was the second post in the thread and was never really addressed. The fact is that we are both athiests, I simply believe in one fewer god than you do. When you come to understand why it is that you dismiss all of the other possible gods then you will understand why it is that I dismiss yours.

HomoUniversalis

Sorry for not replying to it, DD. I didn't see any point discussing it, as much as I don't feel discussing 1+1 being 2.. :S

Concerning Ken Ham. The guy is hilarious. First he speaks about bias concerning evidence. He is correct, however, by using science we eliminate interpretations, and come closer to the one true interpretation. He completely omits this fact from his ponderings and chooses to ignore that science is more than just one set way of looking at it. Regretfully, however, it must also be noted that facts do not even exist. We observe observations with falsified senses.

Than, however, he also ignores his own statement that interpretations are formed, based on facts, and he attempts to disprove evolution and atheism. I could have respected the guy if he had stated the general 'we are not certain'-cliché, but he is trying to be both.

His ideas on mutations are flawed. He clearly has a limited understanding of biology, as it is evident that cells came to existence by merging, and the increase of information in cells, one of the problems in evolution, comes from whence, not from some divine entity.
Simply because laborotory-based mutation leads to entropy does not mean that it is uncapable of improving out in the wild, as Charles Darwin himself observed.

He also talks about how he showed the foolish atheists in his 'seminars' that he in fact knew the truth.

On another occasion, a man came to me after a seminar and said, ‘Actually, I’m an atheist. Because I don’t believe in God, I don’t believe in absolutes, so I recognize that I can’t even be sure of reality.’ I responded, ‘Then how do you know you’re really here making this statement?’ ‘Good point,’ he replied. ‘What point?’ I asked. The man looked at me, smiled, and said, ‘Maybe I should go home.’ I stated, ‘Maybe it won’t be there.’ ‘Good point,’ the man said. ‘What point?’ I replied.[/qupte]

Indeed, the doubt that reality exists is a sign of intelligence. Doubting one's senses and perceptions is a demonstration of higher intelligence, of higher awareness. God offers no guarantees. God could just vaporise your house, or, a high velocity particle could just have interesected with your house. This statement, and his other statements do not prove God. They do not prove anything. They prove the ignorance of the people going to his seminars. How surpising!

[quote]A young man approached me at a seminar and stated, ‘Well, I still believe in the big bang, and that we arrived here by chance random processes. I don’t believe in God.’ I answered him, ‘Well, then obviously your brain, and your thought processes, are also the product of randomness. So you don’t know whether it evolved the right way, or even what right would mean in that context. Young man, you don’t know if you’re making correct statements or even whether you’re asking me the right questions.’

Another response. "The right way"? There is no right way to evolve. Evolution is a process from beginning to best adapted. "Right questions"? The boy may not have known what questions to ask, I do not know what this moronic individual is talking about. He is not talking about anything regarding evolution, or disproving it, however. Rather, he attempts to confuse people using thought paradoxes only the most aware people can decipher. A discussion between us two would end rather soon, as he would soon end up without quasi-paradoxes or other foolishnesses he refers to as 'arguments'.

Even the correct letter sequence would be meaningless without elaborate decoding machinery to translate it. Unless the decoding machinery already existed, those instructions could never be read. Similarly, this book would be useless to a non-English-speaker, who may know the Roman alphabet but lacks knowledge of the code of the English language to convert letters into meaningful concepts.

When he attempts to remove the basis of evolution, he comes with the 'eye' argument. The eye argument is when someone with a lack of understanding of evolution attempts to be witty and fails horribly. You see, he claims that the eye, in every other aspect would not work, and thus it is impossible to evolve. However, he does not understand, that the eye developed slowly from lesser stadia, and that this can be proven by looking at the development in the womb, per example.

Than, he refers to evolution, and talks about chance. I have already explained this previously, that it is a buildup of chance. His failure to understand the chaos theory and causality is not my problem. Grow a clue.

Blablabla. You want thermodynamics? God creating light? Impossible according to thermodynamics. The whole space-time, referring to everything, is a closed system, and it is impossible to generate additional. Science and the Bible are incompatible, stop trying.

Mr U

Snoopy

ThereIsNoMatrix

Do we have free will then?

NMN

God created the laws of thermodynamics, just as He created light, the Earth, the Galaxy. God created because He is omnipotent (all-powerful; Latin omni = all + Latin scio = knowledge).
End of line.

-Snoopy
No, that's retarded. Omni does mean all, but there is no scio there. Pote or whatever the root is means powerful. And I'm sure we all know our latin.

And would you please stop using 'end of line', because in all actuality, you write '-Snoopy' as your last line. And we know that's the end of your post, no need to be redundant.

HomoUniversalis

God created Thermodynamics? Before or after he created light? It won't tell in Genesis..

Could you quote the scripture that states that, even though the laws of thermodynamics were 'found' after the Bible was written? Or is christianity now so dogmatically bankrupt that it allows members to put words into the mouth of God? What arrogance that you believe you can put scientific theories (who are just as prov(/b)able as evolution) into the word of God, Merciful and Compassionate? Or are you satiring the members in this thread defending christianity, if so: LMAO.

Oh, and the last thing I need is a lesson in latin. Stick to what you are good at. Quo usque tandem abutere, Stultitia, patentia nostra!?

Mr U

PS. I hope you can appreciate the little test, Stultitia, I added in your first test sentence. Seeing as you are so very wellread, I am sure you have also read all of the works of Erasmus, and will have no difficulty deciphering my hidden message aimed at you, snoop doggydog *wink* *wink*.

veradis

He meant that God created the laws that govern the universe, physical rules such as thermodynamics were set out when He created Earth. And stop being so mean to Snoopy. He's young, just because he hasn't read Erasmus doesn't mean he's a fool.

HomoUniversalis

he's a fool.You sadly haven't read it either, I see. Being mean? I perceive being mean when you suppose the most basic of latin is unknown to other members, and posting it to appear knowledgable or witty.

Veradis, can you please quote the scripture that says that God created Thermodynamics? If not, than God did not officially, according to Christianity at least, create the laws of thermo-dynamics.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

^All the proof you need. This is impossible according to the law of thermodynamics. As I said, religion and science are not compatable, unless you force them together like two opposite sides of magnets. Apart from Thermodynamics, the bible literally describes the order in which the events of the universe take place, and thus the Big Bang could not have possible have happened, according to the Bible.

By the way, I know an experiment you can do to see the true value of the bible. Go to the US, to one of those national forests that still has Grizzley bears. Approach it, and start reading the scripture, verse, Genesis 9:2 (And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.). I am most convinced that the Grizzley bear will tremble before you and run away. If he, on the other hand mauls you and causes your intestines to fall out, maybe you will feel differently about measuring the bible with science (because the behaviour of bears is science as well *wink* *wink*).

Mr U

Snoopy

veradis

HU, if you are as intelligent as you say you are you would know that the Genesis passage is directed to Noah and his descendents, setting out the rules of what they can eat. Here are the following verses:

3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. 4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

And there are many arguments against evolution, not just creation, regarding the law of thermodynamics:

Chaos theory: no help for evolution
Occasionally it is claimed that the discovery of patterns of order in seeming chaos is a bright star of hope for evolutionists. They feel it holds promise for their struggle to explain how disordered chemicals could have assembled themselves into the first self-reproducing machine, in opposition to the relentless tendency to universal disorder.

However, present indications point to this being an illusory hope. One of the classic examples of such ‘order out of chaos’ is the appearance of hexagonal patterns on the surface of certain oils as they are being heated. The minute the heating stops, this pattern vanishes once again into a sea of molecular disorder.

These patterns, like the swirls of a hurricane, are not only fleetingly short-lived, but are simple, repetitive structures which require negligible information to describe them. The information they do contain is intrinsic to the physics and chemistry of the matter involved, not requiring any extra ‘programming.’

Living things, on the other hand, are characterized by truly complex, information-bearing structures, whose properties are not intrinsic to the physics and chemistry of the substances of which they are constructed; they require the pre-programmed machinery of the cell.

This programming has been passed on from the parent organisms, but had to arise from an intelligent mind originally, since natural processes do not write programs.

Any suggestion that the two issues are truly analogous denies reality.

Niobe 16

I dont really know if god does exist or not. I do however believe that we need something to believe in. We need to be able to connect or sense of being and faith to a *thing* and for some that is the belief that there is a god...

FoolOnTheHill

I do however believe that we need something to believe in.

LOL that was funny. :D
You BELIEVE that we need something to believe in. Actually I've managed fine without so far... strange no?

HomoUniversalis

The bear, unless it has gone psychotic (I haven't heard of any human attacked for lunch alone; the only ones I've heard of eaten had attempted to shoot the bear), only attacks in self-defense. If you come upon bear cubs without making sufficient noise (the bear will know you're there and not see you as a threat--something from my biology teacher), and the mother bear comes along, it sees you as a threat, and attacks.
BTW: The scio/pote thing was a mix-up of two words. I had my attentions divided between Wikipedia and MM at the time.
EOL

Your biology teacher needs a new job. If you approach bear cups, not matter how quietly, you'll get mauled. One of the greatest 'bear' experts, who is great at handling bears got mauled a few years back. Bears do not fear men, and Grizzley bears, whose behaviour puzzles scientists still attack without apparant reason.

HU, if you are as intelligent as you say you are you would know that the Genesis passage is directed to Noah and his descendents, setting out the rules of what they can eat. Here are the following verses:

Bleh. Your previous sources are so excellent at crippling lines from scientific research and you accuse me of doing the same with the bible? My point remains. Whether aimed at Noah or not, Grizzley bears will probably maul people because they can and probably like to. Thus, the Bible goes against the principles of science, as pointed by me on several other occasions, which you have failed to address.

Regarding Thermodynamics, thermodynamics has nothing to do with evolution. No matter how many times you will continue this, it will never be true. It is nonsensical, foolish and dumb. There are no euphemisms for the ridiculous nature of the argument. None whatsoever.

but had to arise from an intelligent mind originally

Bwhahahahahahahahahahahahaha! That never get's old.

You BELIEVE that we need something to believe in. Actually I've managed fine without so far... strange no?

*in most masculine voice:* But.. Don't you believe in me?

It never seizes to be funny, now does it :D

Mr U

DonDaddy

Since everyone has decided they need to start using big words I will join in for a minute.

While some parts of the universe may operate like machines, these are closed systems, and closed systems, at best, form only a small part of the physical universe. Most phenomena of interest to us are, in fact, open systems, exchanging energy or matter (and one might add, information) with their environment. Surely biological and social systems are open, which means that the attempt to understand them in mechanistic terms is doomed to failure. I.e. the universe is fundamentally connected, whether in the guise of Connective Physics, Zero-Point Energy, ESP, or life in general.

This suggests, moreover, that most of reality, instead of being orderly, stable and equilibrial, is seething and bubbling with change, disorder, and process. This is the same process which Arthur Young considers so important in the makeup of the universe. This is where the action is, and what constitutes the basis of Time Wave Novelty.

In Prigoginian terms, all systems contain subsystems, which are continually 'fluctuating'.

Such fluctuations may be reflected in elementary particles literally winking in and out of existence in accordance with the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. But any given fluctuation or combination of them may with positive feedback shatter the organization at a revolutionary moment, which Prigogine and Stengers refer to as a bifurcation point. It is inherently impossible to know what’ll happen next: whether the system will disintegrate into confusion or become a new, more differentiated, higher level of structure. Such an organization is referred to as a dissipative structure. The name derives from the fact that compared to simpler structures, a dissipative structure requires more energy to sustain itself. Prigogine nevertheless insists that order can arise spontaneously out of disorder through a process of self-organization. Proof of this can be seen in ones understandings of crystals.

The world of dynamics, be it classical or quantum, is a reversible world. No evolution can be ascribed to this world; the 'information' expressed in terms of dynamical units remains constant. There are conditions: a minimum complex is necessary. But the immense importance of irreversible processes shows that this requirement is satisfied for most systems of interest. This evolutionary paradigm includes isolated systems that evolve to disorder and open systems that evolve to higher and higher forms of complexity. On the human level irreversibility is a more fundamental concept, which is for us inseparable from the meaning of our existence. Still it is essential that in this perspective we no longer see the internal feeling of irreversibility as a subjective impression that alienates us from the outside world, but as marking our participation in a world dominated by an evolutionary paradigm.

veradis

Since thermodynamics has nothing to do with evolution, and since you say science and Christianity don't mix, then apparently thermodynamics has always been in existence, without any beginning. I'd like to see you prove that one, the laws of thermodynamics and entropy state that it must go from one state to another, from order to chaos. This is impossible if there is no beginning point.

And I'd like you to show me where in the Bible it specifically says that Grizzly bears will not maul you, since you so adamantly demanded to know where it talks about thermodynamics. It never specifically says that, and if you think the Genesis passage means exactly that, you are reading something else into it from what it was originally intended to say.

Regarding the 'we have to believe in something' theory, I believe that's partly true. I think every human being feels the need to have a purpose in life. I also think that God put a void in our lives, a hole, that we would need to find something to fill it, but only He can really satisfy this need. Niobe, I know you are in the military, that may be your purpose, but does it completely fulfill you? Do you desire anything else in life? Some people try to fill the hole with other things, money, drugs, sex, but those things only lead to wanting more. All I know is, I have filled my void, and with God I desire nothing else.

DonDaddy

I have everything that I desire. I have the Marine Corps and I have my own will to do as I please. And regardless of anything else everyone, at some point in their lives, covets something. But to answer your question, yes, I am completely fulfilled and thus do not require your god.

As for HU and his bears, he was referring to this passage: And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth…

I would guess that the point he was drawing is that if this was the truth the bear would flee rather than maul the hell out of you. Again, I am just guessing about that but by simply reading the rest of the post that is the meaning that is most obvious to me.

… you are reading something else into it from what it was originally intended to say.

Isnt that the very nature of the bible, that it is interpreted differently by everyone that reads it? Isnt that why there are several different versions of the bible and a multitude of different religions that are all based on the bible?

FoolOnTheHill

I think every human being feels the need to have a purpose in life.
Actually NO lmao. I am a human being even if I live in France
:D ... and no I dont feel the need to have a purpose in life. I just live everyday as they come... and as I'm far from being unique I guess there are other human beings who dont need to have a purpose in their lives or who dont feel the need of some superior order sorting things out for them and who think that creative DISORDER is way more exiting....

and DD... nice description of the universal cauldron of chaos and creativity. We even reproduce that need for imperfection in our small lives - just look at the computer industrie...or the automobile industrie... the more complicated it gets the more can and does go wrong, it's inbuilt in our genes to f.... up the more we think up ;)
Prigogine nevertheless insists that order can arise spontaneously out of disorder through a process of self-organization..
Actually the contrary is true too... disorder arises all the time out of the semblance of order... but dont let me stop you confusing them. It's big fun to read.

*in most masculine voice:* But.. Don't you believe in me?

It never seizes to be funny, now does it :D

Mr U[/color]

Sorry babe, no I dont. But you can have another try lol
Yes, that line never ceases to make me laugh :D

veradis

Genesis 9:2 is part of God's covenant with Noah. It meant that humans will not be the regular prey of any animal, which is true today. Bears do not normally hunt humans, but this does not mean that a human will never be attacked by an animal.

And no, the Bible was intended to have one interpretation, only one meaning for each passage. God made it perfect, we only read different things into it because we are imperfect, human, and we do not always know what the correct interpretation is, so we argue about it, and then settle on what each group believes is right. This does not mean that there is more than one real meaning, it only means that we are inferior to God's ways and cannot alway understand him due to our imperfection.

DonDaddy

And we are only imperfect because god made us that way. If god wanted humans to understand with a snap of his fingers he could make us, or at least make us capable. This is just another thing about religion I dont get. Lets look at a few things you have previously stated about the bible in this thread.

If you understand it, the Bible is not contradictory.

I have tried using the way I believe the Bible to be true…

…and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness.

But then you openly admit

God made it perfect, we only read different things into it because we are imperfect, human, and we do not always know what the correct interpretation is, so we argue about it, and then settle on what each group believes is right.

How can it be useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness if humans cant even understand it? And who are you, being imperfect, to judge ‘the way I believe the Bible to be true’?

Its like you get to have your cake and eat it to. You get to say that everything in the bible is true and that is what people should base their lives on but you also get to say that humans are imperfect so they don’t fully understand the bible so you just have to figure it the best you can. Simply. Brilliant.

Niobe 16

Well I am glad that you find it funny that people need to believe in something. However I do think that this statement is true...I dont believe in god but do believe in others things... I think that belief is what ever you want it to be..... be it god or science....I dont think anyone will ever truly know...but I am happy to let people believe in what they want...from this belief that person starts to evolve and become in everysense of the word themselves. Belief however does seem to spwan a negitive force as well as a positive one.

veradis

Ugh, here we go again. God did not make us imperfect, we fell on our own accord. He gave us free will so we could turn back to him. I didn't say we couldn't understand all of it, I'm just saying that we disagree on certain parts. All we can do is figure out what God wanted us to know the best we can. There's no other alternative. And I'm not judging you, I was talking about the way I myself believe the Bible to be true. I love cake.

Niobe, belief in anything you want is not necessarily a good thing. It's not true just because you believe in it. And what if someone was a devil-worshiper, does that spawn a negative force or a positive one?

FoolOnTheHill

And what if someone was a devil-worshiper, does that spawn a negative force or a positive one?
If that kind of thing had any effect it would probably spawn both. A negative force from the devil worshiper and a positive one from the good christians that would rise to the occasion of stopping the evil :rolleyes:

Niobe... it was your formulation that made me laugh way more than the idea as such. Obviously a great many people take comfort in their beliefs, generalizing from there that ALL people need beliefs is far fetched imo. Unless said beliefs can be as changing as life itself. What I dont get is the arrogance of holding one idea or belief for true above all others and of course it always has to be the idea of the person who professes that belief too... I suppose that I take my comfort from my firm... belief lmao that no idea or thing is everlasting, everything changes sooner or later.

Snoopy

It is my belief that the kingdom of God is everlasting. The Bible says that heaven and earth will pass away, but those who follow God will be saved.
EOL

NMN

It is my belief that the kingdom of God is everlasting. The Bible says that heaven and earth will pass away, but those who follow God will be saved.
EOL
One thing that has always presented me with perplexion was the whole 'saved' thing. Saved from what? If you cannot comprehend God or intentions, then how could anything be known other than current knowledge? What if you're already in a state of safety? The words that Christians TRY to follow are 'love', 'compassion', yadda yadda, but how can one actually attribute states to those words, since they are human in origin? Words are just ways to convey how someone is feeling, or to transmit information. They are a more advanced way of language, but from one language to another, they are interpreted and translated differently. So who's to say you aren't already in 'saved' state and all this 'suffering' as a human is everlasting life? No one can answer this, and basically shouldn't be talked about. Those questions I just posed need not be answered, because the answer will not be sufficient, just like the answer to whether God or a god exists, or how the universe started, or the evolution of what humans call 'life'. These questions are unanswerable in our current state of understanding and therefore frivolous and fruitless. Nothing good comes of these questions, and most of the time, leads to a higher state of apathy.

FoolOnTheHill

Nothing good comes of these questions, and most of the time, leads to a higher state of apathy.

NMN, asking questions and looking for answers is the only way for humanity to evolve. You would not react this way if it were scientific questions, why should this be different for philosophical ones? I know that a philosopher is perhaps just somebody who's just bright enough to get a job with no heavy lifting, but still...
:D

NMN

I'm not saying not to ask questions. The "major" questions that philosophers have worked with over the years and the ones that still plague us today are NEVER going to be answered. Not with our current understanding of the universe. The questions you should be asking are the questions that pertain to you, or that are earthly queries. The unanswerable are just a big waste of time, when there are so much better things to learn and question that can be either answered by self-enlightenment or or by the world population collectively, including, but not limited to, nature.

And I would react the same if it were scientific questions that also ask the "Big" Questions, because they'll just do exactly what I previously stated.

Thank you and good night.

FoolOnTheHill

The "major" questions that philosophers have worked with over the years and the ones that still plague us today are NEVER going to be answered. Not with our current understanding of the universe.

How do you know that? With your current understanding of the universe? There are perpaps questions without answers and answers without questions around but how would you know that nobody is EVER going to find the solution to them? Perhaps in some millenias we will all be pure energy spirits and understand it all. And you are contradicting yourself...Jeez...

The questions you should be asking are the questions that pertain to you, or that are earthly queries. The unanswerable are just a big waste of time, when there are so much better things to learn and question that can be either answered by self-enlightenment or or by the world population collectively, including, but not limited to, nature.

Who made you god and decide for me (or anybody else) what questions SHOULD be asked or not? If people keep asking them there must be a reason, no? If you think it's a waste of time that's your problem not theirs...

Thank you and good night.
It's morning here... off for coffee. Sweet dreams to you
:rolleyes:

NMN

You obviously are missing the point. I'm saying the questions ARE NOT important, and therefore need not be asked. But ask away, I don't care. I'm being rhetorical in that second quoting of me. Merely suggestions, if you choose not to do them, then I couldn't give a flying fuck.

Philosophy has been around for 3000 years now. How much closer have we gotten to "Does God exist?" than the ancient Greeks? Not much closer, I'm afraid. And throwing me speculation is a really great argument. How about: maybe tomorrow, everyone will know everything. Om my God, really? Perhaps in the next year, humans won't be born with ears, 'cause, you know, it's the cool thing to do.

FoolOnTheHill

Ok you keep asking the important questions, like what car you're going to buy or what brand of beer you're going to drink and why nobody has any good idea for fixing the bloody rpg point system for you and I'll keep speculating about the unimportant ones with people who are interested in things like is there a god or not and if there is what's keeping him from fixing the lives of all the poor sob's who pray to him. Anyway, it's obvious that having ears does not mean that you listen... so perhaps you'll come back without them and will have to stick the branches of your glasses to your skull with sticky tape...

DonDaddy

Listening has nothing to do with debating in theis place...but whatever. And its you who is missing the point...still. There are NO important questions. Of course this is all very off topic. Perhaps a new thread is in order if everyone would wish to continue on this path.

FoolOnTheHill

The hell there are not. Just try going along without any drinks or Guiness for a few weeks, all your usual bars closed, the supermarket out of alcool as well and you have to ask yourself this overall important question - where can I get a [censored] drink. Then you happen upon this kewl gasoline station and there is this nice cold sixpack Guiness winking at you out of the fridge. You might even start believing in god there. Of course that's just idle speculation... lol

HomoUniversalis

Nothing can be proven. Nietzsche points his criticism at 'Cogito ergo sum', and is right in doing so. There is a philosophical principle of uncertainty concerning even the most base questions 'Do I exist?'. Perhaps you do exist, but perhaps you do not. Let me explain.

'Do I exist?' consists out of three words, and raises three independent questions to which we can not give the answers.

'Do': Cogito ergo sums tells us that thinking means existing. However, 'do' applies to the present. Perhaps our thoughts are simply the echoing of something that used to exist, or the visions of something that has not yet come to exist.

'I': Cogito ergo sum, though not in literal latin, requires the definition of the word I, and I is no absolute. Per example, is the air in your mouth 'I'? You answer no? How about the air in your longues? You answer no? How about the air in your veines? You answer no? How about the oxygen atoms in your cells? When does your food become 'I'? 'I' is as much as a vague description as life, and fails horrible to properly illustrate existence. This alone makes cogito ergo sum incorrect.

'exist': As put above, how does one define I, here one should ask, how does one define exist? What is existence, and how does it follow out of the act of thinking?

Three questions who can not be answered by brute logic, merely by speculation. Science, with all it's knowledge based on this premise is thus, fundamentally wrong (in it's ability to prove itself) and dismissable.

From this premise we derive faith/trust/belief in a primary belief system that is utilised as much by christianity as it is by science.

Note however, that the above conlusion, though usurped and raped by christianity, rings true in science. Science has faith in observation. Science believes that through observation things can be proven. Christianity does not do this. As all works of God are of the world (since every child is bron atheist), Christians do use the primary principle, and rely upon their observation. They than, after believing in a scientific principle, dismiss the scientific 'evidence' that says God is not real. God's existence is just as probable as our unexistence (and vice versa). However, Christians believe in their observation, and thus they should also rely on their direct observation further on. Betraying it for an entity that can not be observed is treachery and deserves no respect. It is a blatant act of hypocrisy.

Much more pure are buddhists, who do not trust their observations. Whether there own interpretations are valid is another matter, but they are not guilty of hypocrisy.

Mr U

Snoopy

And yet, here we are, existing, talking about God and whether He exists. I've observed so many things that say God exists.
Evolution? The evidence wouldn't fit into my basement. Intelligent design? The evidence is all over the Universe. I have seen God work in my life. He has kept me safe.
Regarding NMN: Saved from an eternity without God, in Hell.
To anyone with the question I'm answering in mind: God knows we're not perfect. He knows we sin. That's why He sent Jesus. He also has patience for even the worst of sinners.

-Snoopy

HomoUniversalis

He also has patience for even the worst of sinners.

What about the seven deadly sins? Or the insulting of the Holy Spirit, or denying Jesus Christ?

Please.

He knows we are imperfect? If we are imperfect, he made us that way. If we were perfect before the fall, how could we fall to seduction? Either God made us imperfect, and filled the gap between us and perfection with free will, or he made us with the explicit intent of falling.

Apart from that, the omniscient omnipotent God doesn't work. If you know everything and can do everything, there is no purpose or intent in doing anything. If you already know what is going to happen, and know how to prevent it from happening, and can prevent it from happening, what is the purpose of doing it? Though it may appear as if God's scheme is impenetrable, what purpose do we serve? 'Only God knows? How much more gratifying is that than claiming there is no purpose.

The evidence wouldn't fit into my basement.

Intelligent design? The evidence is all over the Universe.

There is not a single shred of evidence for intelligent design but the feeble dreams of madmen as recorded in the Bible. Christianity is based on faith. As I stated before, live with the fact that Christianity means believing, not proving, and that it and science are mutually exclusive. All you are doing is making yourself look like and idiot.

Mr U

Snoopy

God said He would never leave us or forsake us.
Yes, there is evidence for intelligent design. Why do we even exist here? Why did life come up here, and not on Mars or Venus (which are in the Life Zone, according to a book I've read)? Why does carbon bond in just the right way to form us? What's the chance that we have all of these things just so for us to exist? And this is just Earth.

-Snoopy

HomoUniversalis

You are asking questions (that have been answered by evolutionists) who are supposed to doubt evolution. Even if evolution does not have an answer to them, that still does not provide evidence for intelligent design. There is no evidence for intelligent design whatsoever.

The lack of knowledge hardly constitutes as any form of proof.

Mr U

DonDaddy

Prigogine nevertheless insists that order can arise spontaneously out of disorder through a process of self-organization. Proof of this can be seen in ones understandings of crystals.

Do you know about crystals? Do you understand how those perfect spiars and wonderful shapes are formed? Do you grasp just how those perfect geometric shapes can come to be in nature? There is no complex control system, there is no controlling power. That is simply how they form. When the molecules cool and slow they automatically arrange themselves together in this manner. And once they have cooled to a certain point the crystal is what you are left with. There simply is no magic to it. Some of the crystal formations are massive and incredibly complex, impossible for humans to recreate despite our knowledge and abilities. It is simply the natural order of the molecules. Nothing more. Just because something is very complex and not fully understood does not suggest that some supreme involvement is called for. Your argument is a logical fallacy.

And anytime you feel like going to live on Mars or Venus go right ahead. Let me know how it works out for you.

Snoopy

Why do the spiral shapes even form? God ordained that.

-Snoopy

HomoUniversalis

Why do the spiral shapes even form?

Because of physical and chemical principles. God's creation does not follow from this.

Why do the laws of nature exist? Well, there is no purpose. No matter how depressing this may sound, there is no purpose, at least, following from a scientific view.

Mr U

DonDaddy

Obviously there is no point for me to continue in this. I have tried giving examples and I have tried to break it down Barney style, yet here we are walking in circles again. HU, you have done well here but I suggest letting it go.

HomoUniversalis

Where is the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing? They have passed like rain on the mountains. Like wind in the meadow. The days have gone down in the west. Behind the hills, into shadow. How did it come to this?

Because we, the complacent few, allowed evil. We must not be too quick in our complacency. Still, the above have shown quite impervious to any form of reasonable logic. A pitty.

Mr U

Zyren13

I read the first couple pages and got sick of this, all I'm going to say is this, I believe in God.

FoolOnTheHill

And we should care why? I mean glad for you that you have something you believe in but that's beside the topic...the question was not "do you believe in God" but "does God exist"... and open for discussion to all and everybody :rolleyes:

HomoUniversalis

We shouldn't judge too harshly, Hill. Besides, he makes a valid point. The argument posted on the first few pages are sickening. Because of the vast amount of Christians on the internet, it is easy to forget what the implications can be of such a religious doctrine.

Nietzsche reminds us that the surest way to corrupt youth is to teach them to appreciate people who think like them more than people who think differently.

Zyren13, I mourn for your loss.

Mr U

FoolOnTheHill

Nietzsche reminds us that the surest way to corrupt youth is to teach them to appreciate people who think like them more than people who think differently.

You telling ME? :D And Karl Marx says that religion is opium of the people...oh well. Ok, ok... I'll be nice...I'm sorry for you loss Zyren13 (even if I have no idea who or what you lost, if even HU tries to be nice it must be important, so sorry,k?)

HomoUniversalis

Well, I was more or less telling the group. Wait.. You mean this isn't therapy, because if it isn't, why am I spending all this time with all these loonies?

Oh, and I was expressing my mourning for Zuren13's loss of intellect. :/ :P

Mr U

Snoopy

Zuren13 did not lose his intellect; he has the choice of believeing in God if he so chooses.
BTW: Nietzsche spent the last ten years of his life insane. His works (as I have examined them) also alluded to an above-man (übermensch), which is essentially similar to Hitler's Aryan race. The "eternal recurrence" is also hard to swallow because we only one chance here.
I think, at least, that God does exist. It couldn't just happen. Read...Clicky! (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0921714785/qid=1122687186/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/103-9786450-6883846)

-Snoopy

HomoUniversalis

BTW: Nietzsche spent the last ten years of his life insane.

He suffered from mental disease. Your point?

His works (as I have examined them) also alluded to an above-man (übermensch), which is essentially similar to Hitler's Aryan race.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!

Mr U

Snoopy

About Nietzsche's condition, from Wikipedia:
Most Nietzsche commentators find the issue of Nietzsche's breakdown and "insanity" irrelevant to his work...though some, including Georges Bataille, have disagreed, declaring that Nietzsche's breakdown should be considered a real possibility to any who would emulate his ideas...The cause of Nietzsche's condition has to be regarded as undetermined. Doctors later in his life said they were not so sure about the initial diagnosis of syphilis because he lacked the typical symptoms.

-Snoopy

HomoUniversalis

Georges Bataille, have disagreed, declaring that Nietzsche's breakdown should be considered a real possibility to any who would emulate his ideas...

Georges Bataille clearly has not read any works by D.A.F. de Sade or Erasmus.

By the way, if you are trying to make a point, make it. Your ideas on Nietzsche are clearly anything but based on fact. Your misinterpretation of Nietzsche's works can be called nothing else as stupid. Your examination of his works? You have not even read his works, whelp!

Mr U

renegade-agent

look i don't usually comment on this stuff coz frankly i think it's pointless(mainly becoz people are so blind to their faith they refuse to even except any one elses opinion)and i'm not ze brightest bulb in the box,but religion is about faith-pure and simple,theirs no proof of gods existence at all,in fact most logic points towards god NOT existing,but please do not attempt to insult or demean nietzsche's work he was(no insult intended) a man much smarter than you :D -and remember theres a fine line between genuis and insanity and sometimes they cross borders.....................

NMN

You can't really use the word insane in this instance anyways. "Insanity" is a legal term. It rarely has anyhting to do with a person's mental capacity or mental fitness, in a biological sense, of course. "Insanity" is a product of society.

HomoUniversalis

Actually, I seem to be wrong. Did some reading on Georges Bataille. He was in his filosophy heavily influenced by de Sade and by Nietzsche, much like me, hehe. In any case, I must presume he means that the style of Nietzsche's last books became more 'chaotic'. However, that should never imply that his writing is not of superior quality than 99,99999% of all other books. In fact, his many aphorisms can be read in the stead of many works of literature as he was capable of containing a single thought, a single 'pondering', a single 'experience', a single 'lesson of life' in a single aphorism.

I don't entirely agree, NMN. The term is not completely legal. It is just meaningless within psychiatry and psychology, just like the terms healthy and ill is meaningless in medical science. When is a person ill and when is a person healthy? Bacteria and virii are constantly being destroyed by my body, so technically I am never healthy. Apart from that, almost every person has certain obsessions or demonstrates eratic behaviour and is thus not completely 'sane', as would be demanded of declaring someone mentally sane.

By the way, Snoopy, you should be happy that mr Bataille is dead. He might press charges at you putting your own theories into his mouth. Wikipedia states this:

Most Nietzsche commentators find the issue of Nietzsche's breakdown and "insanity" irrelevant to his work as a philosopher, for the tenability of arguements and ideas are of utmost significance rather than the originator eo ipso, though some, including Georges Bataille, have disagreed.

Ergo, Georges Bataille believes that the source of ideas is important. That's all it states. One could draw from this conclusion (wikipedia does not state whether my friend George did this) that because of his mental ailment, his ideas should be re-examined. However, this has been done by peple who actually understand Nietzsche (opposed to you, fledgeling), and by my knowledge they have shown his ideas to be superior to previous thoughts.

"Insanity" is a product of society.

Interesting comment, NMN. It is hard for me to believe that some psychologists are unable to differ from a disease and a different set of moral values. Surely there is nothing wrong with a sociopath (er, with this I mean, a person whose values/behaviour differ from those usuable in society)!?

Mr U

Snoopy

You put your ideas in my mouth a few pages ago. Remember this?

IF THERE IS NO GOD...
...the Bible is untrue
...truth and love do not exist
...nothing is "wrong," so we have no conscience
However, since I believe God does exist...
...the Bible is true
...truth and love are real
...there are spiritual and moral rights and wrongs
Just something from my 6th grade teacher.

And then, you posted...

Had (s)he been my six grade teacher, I would have laughed at him/her.

Quote:
the Bible is untrue

Yep. Shocking but probably true. Remember, I'm not here to comformt you and tuck you back into that nice bed 'we' (the evil people) so utterly despise.

Also, you call you and your ilk "the evil people." According to Wikipedia...

Good & evil, for him, was a false dichotomy

I was talking to my dad about this forum, and he told me to say that you should read...Clicky! (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0743243153/qid=1122758093/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/103-9786450-6883846) The doctor who wrote this book started writing it as an agnostic. He finished it as a Christian.

-Snoopy

HomoUniversalis

Also, you call you and your ilk "the evil people." According to Wikipedia...

You are than as foolish as your father, apparantly, for being unable to grasp beautiful irony. Your preaching of good and evil did not go unnoticed. Sadly, my satire of this did go unnoticed, well in your eyes, at least.

When next you speak to your dad, ask him what is the light of his life. There is only one correct answer to that, I'll wait until you post it and tell if you if he got it right or wrong, hehe.

Mr U

Snoopy

I will not subject myself to your childish game, HomoUniversalis. You're beginning to sound like Q from Star Trek: TNG.
BTW: Nietzsche had a view (according to Wikipedia) that essentially was: "Say yes! to life" (saving lives is good; many, including myself, will say that). But your sig is "Murder--Death--Kill"...

-Snoopy

P.S. Light of his life? That's easy. General Electric.

HomoUniversalis

I gave you the chance of becoming wise, snoopy-dog-dog. You rejected this opportunity. Do not blame the Teacher for your impotence to hear his wisdom.

"If Christ was in fact God, he knew the persecutions that would be carried on in his name; he knew the millions that would suffer death through torture; and yet he died without saying one word to prevent what he must have known, if he were God, would happen."
(Robert Green Ingersoll / 1833-1899 / A Christmas Sermon)

Something to whisper to your father in his sleep, perhaps he will awaken and seize to be Nietzsche's last man, and see his light. You will ask him, I hope. My fellow inmates would be most grateful, or so they say unto me.

Oh, and please, your attempts at putting Nietzsche into words fails horribly. Have you ever read the Divine Comedy? Perhaps your deary old daddy has. Ask him than, in how many different way this beautyiful epic poem can be interpreted. Has he any wit, he will quickly utter four. So too is Nietzsche able to give his readers many ways of intepreting him. Your 'copy-past' maneuvre from Wikipedia shows nothing but your imcompetence to see the cosmic joke.

Never forget, I fear nothing. I fear not you knowing me to the deepest bowles of my soul, for I fear no prosecution of God. I have no conscience, which makes my deeds even more beautiful. If I let you live, it is because I want to, because I choose to, not because I fear going to hell if I do.

Mr U

PS. An amusing answer, and the right one. It is his fear that drives him to sarcasm, fear of being known. I look through the veil of your religion old man, I see your fear of death.

ZeroOne

Well I believe God exists and I believe in Him. By God, I am referring to THE God, with his son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. This is going to sound harsh and ignorant, but none of the other gods exist, and you are wasting your time if you believe in them. Sorry but that's the way it is. You don't have to believe me, but everyone on this planet will on the day he comes back, so when that happens, just remember this post. :)

HomoUniversalis

Though the posts of Veradis and NIC could not convince me, you have, ZeroOne. All hail the sacred Christ in whose image all pales in comparison and no analogy properly explains his beauty. I humble in his spiritual presence.

Mr U

ZeroOne

suicide blond

LOL, Sarcasm is universal not just an American thing ZO.
There is nothing that you said that I have not already heard before. I am all about the facts you see. I have never seen God therefore, I do not know he exsists. I could however try to believe if I wanted to but, It is my choice not to. If he/she were standing in front of me today, I would have a few choice words to say to him/her and a hell of a lot of "what were you thinking" questions to ask. This however is not going to happen so, I don't have the blind faith that you do. I have faith in myself. I make my own life the way it is. Good or bad, it is still my choice and my actions dictate the outcome of it. We shall see if your God shows himself/herself or not. I highly doubt it but stranger things have happened.

Patriot

"If Christ was in fact God, he knew the persecutions that would be carried on in his name; he knew the millions that would suffer death through torture; and yet he died without saying one word to prevent what he must have known, if he were God, would happen."
(Robert Green Ingersoll / 1833-1899 / A Christmas Sermon)

I'm not going to go do a point by point analysis of all the hot air on this thead that's happened while I haven't been paying attention to it, but this one deserves an answer. I've thought of it before myself.

Like Neo said, "The problem is choice." :nerd:

I believe that Christ died knowing people would CHOOSE to do evil in the name of good, did all that was nessicary to put in place principles that would, if people CHOSE to follow righteousness, lead them in paths of righteousness. I believe what people then CHOSE to do in the name of those principles is, according to God, their own CHOICE that they will answer for on Judgement Day. I believe God is merciful unto those who never knew the truth, but Hell is reserved for those who hear the truth and reject (which can mean corrupt) it.

oh and by the way ... what is a Matrix site doing without a cool sunglasses smiley? :lol:

ZeroOne

I'm not going to go do a point by point analysis of all the hot air on this thead that's happened while I haven't been paying attention to it, but this one deserves an answer. I've thought of it before myself.

Like Neo said, "The problem is choice." :nerd:

I believe that Christ died knowing people would CHOOSE to do evil in the name of good, did all that was nessicary to put in place principles that would, if people CHOSE to follow righteousness, lead them in paths of righteousness. I believe what people then CHOSE to do in the name of those principles is, according to God, their own CHOICE that they will answer for on Judgement Day. I believe God is merciful unto those who never knew the truth, but Hell is reserved for those who hear the truth and reject (which can mean corrupt) it.

oh and by the way ... what is a Matrix site doing without a cool sunglasses smiley? :lol:

Well said. But what happened to the cavemen that never knew God, did they go to hell?

HomoUniversalis

Is it good to take responsibility for something that falls not within your own realm of responsibility? Christ's crucifixion does seem to indicate that, as he takes up the sins of those whose sins do not belong to him. The allegory seems to represent the feeling of "Don't deny your own responsibility, in fact, feel responsible for as much as possible."

Imagine a bum is lying on the ground in his own vomit. Is it your responsibility to aid him? Not really, however, if you make it your responsibility to aid him, surely that is a good, perhaps even a divine act.

If this is a good deed, if this is a trait of goodness, a virtue, than God, by denying responsibility on the actions of mankind is not completely good. He is at least partly void of good, and the worst some part evil.

This granted, and such it is as my logic is, as always, blisfully perfect, we can draw the conclusion that since God is not 100% good, that the reliability of the afterlife is doubtful. Granted, if God exists, it does not mean that his word is truth, because it is already proven that he is not 100% as he himself professed. He is thus, a liar. Do you trust a lying person who has some nasty personality traits to tell you how to live your life? Do you trust him when he promises some absurd blissful award at the end of it? If you answered yes to those last questions, you are naive, not awakened.

Mr U

Patriot

Well said. But what happened to the cavemen that never knew God, did they go to hell?

Yeah.. Well said. Christ made the choice of not helping millions. How.. uhm.. benevolent? Of him? An allpowerful being that does not seize the opportunity to create an instruction that everyone understands and that will effectively save millions of lives is not benevolent.

Oh, and yes, they did go to hell, just like all the Egyptians, who worshipped Lucifer, and all the other religions.

Speak for yourself and your own beliefs, HU. If you recall, I said:

I believe God is merciful unto those who never knew the truth, but Hell is reserved for those who hear the truth and reject (which can mean corrupt) it.

That means for example I believe that even though the Catholic Church was completely false from it's beginnings, that doesn't mean that all the people who ever went there and didn't know any better are going to hell. That'd be absurd. The Inquisitors might have it coming to them though. :lol:

Why not make one? Bitch.
Mr U

A. I'd love to but I am not in a position of control over the site.
B. I meant that as a good-natured comment. Please refrain from using obscene language - at least to me, whether that's a rule of the site or not.

Is it good to take responsibility for something that falls not within your own realm of responsibility? Christ's crucifixion does seem to indicate that, as he takes up the sins of those whose sins do not belong to him. The allegory seems to represent the feeling of "Don't deny your own responsibility, in fact, feel responsible for as much as possible."
Imagine a bum is lying on the ground in his own vomit. Is it your responsibility to aid him? Not really, however, if you make it your responsibility to aid him, surely that is a good, perhaps even a divine act.
If this is a good deed, if this is a trait of goodness, a virtue, than God, by denying responsibility on the actions of mankind is not completely good. He is at least partly void of good, and the worst some part evil.

Now hold on a second here. You've got your theology completely mixed up.

Suppose the bum, weak as he is, got out a gun that the other person knows is not loaded, but the bum thinks it is, and tries, pathetically, to threaten to shoot the other person with it if he does not leave him alone. Suppose he tries everything he possibly can (up to and including violence) to get the other person to go away.

The bum in this analogy being representative of humanity and the good samaritan being representitave of God. God says to the bum, "Look, I'd love to help you. I really would, because I'm God and it's my very nature to do good. However, if you refuse my help, it's also outside my nature to force you to obey me so I can get you to shelter. So you're going to have to sit there and make up your own little mind whether to accept my help or reject it."

(funny, my example God is starting to sound like the Oracle from one of the Matrix movies... probably the reverse is actually true)

The bum then says, "screw you, God!" and throws a knife at him. God decides not to force himself on the bum and backs off. The bum then proceeds to freeze on the sidewalk. God finds this very saddening

The night then proceeds to get colder and colder until God is sure the bum is going to freeze to death. Satan then comes over to the window and says, "Oh, come on. You don't have to sit there crying because the bum won't come in! I'll get him for you! I'll force him to obey and come in out of the cold!"

God says, "No. Staying out there in the cold is the bum's decision. If I forced the bum to obey, then what kind of God would I be?"

Christ, God's Son, says, "Father, I'll go out and wait patiently until the bum decides to come in, and then I'll help him."

God says, "I can see the future and know that if you do that, you will freeze to death. It's so cold out there that you will be in extreme pain and it will take three days to thaw you out. Will you still go?"

Christ says, "Yes. I want to help too."

Christ goes out in the cold. The wind is blowing loudly. Christ shouts, "Take my hand! I'll help you! You don't have to stay out here!"

The bum says, "I told you do-gooders to get lost! Now we'll teach you a lesson, right Satan?"

Satan is standing there with the gun. He loads it and points it at the Son of God.

The bum says, "Yeah, go get him, Satan! We'll show 'em!"

Satan fires.

Christ gets shot several times, but manages to get the gun away from satan and knock him out by hitting him on the head with the butt. At this point, the bum begins to realize how cold he really is. He moans, realizing that that could be his last sound, and reaches out his hand.

Christ, bleeding and barely able to stand, picks up the bum and somehow manages to carry him inside. Once the bum is inside, he finally collapses on the floor. God then tries his best to care for them both.

It's sad, but I honestly believe that's how the story really goes.

FoolOnTheHill

Oh we are telling jokes now? I've got a couple too.

GOD THE COMPUTER PROGRAMMER

You know, many important theological questions are answered,
if we think of God as a Computer Programmer:

Q: Does God control everything that happens in my life?
A: He could, if he used the debugger, but it's tedious
to step through all those variables.

Q: Why does God allow evil to happen?
A: God thought he eliminated evil in one of the earlier versions.

Q: What causes God to intervene in earthly affairs?
A: If a critical error occurs, the system pages him automatically
and he logs on from home to try to bring it up. Otherwise things
can wait until tomorrow.

Q: Did God really create the world in seven days?
A: He did it in six days and nights while living on cola and candy
bars. On the seventh day he went home and found out his girlfriend
had left him.

Q: How come the Age of Miracles Ended?
A: That was the development phase of the project, now we are in the
maintenance phase.

Q: Who is Satan?
A: Satan is a MIS director who takes credit for more powers than he
actually possesses, so people who aren't programmers are scared of
him. God thinks of him as irritating but irrelevant.

Q: What is the role of sinners?
A: Sinners are the people who find new an imaginative ways to mess up
the system when God has made it idiot-proof.

Q: Where will I go after I die?
A: Onto a DAT tape.

Q: Will I be reincarnated?
A: Not unless there is a special need to recreate you. And searching
those tar files is a major hassle, so if there is a request for you,
God will just say that the tape has been lost.

Q: Am I unique and special in the universe?
A: There are over 10,000 major university and corporate sites running
exact duplicates of you in the present release version.

Q: What is the purpose of the universe?
A: God created it because he values elegance and simplicity, but then
the users and managers demanded he tack all this senseless stuff onto
it and now everything is more complicated and expensive than ever.

Q: If I pray to God, will he listen?
A: You can waste his time telling him what to do, or you can just get off
his back and let him program.

Q: What is the one true religion?
A: All systems have their advantages and disadvantages, so just pick the
one that best suits your needs and don't let anyone put you down.

Q: How can I protect myself from evil?
A: Change your password every month and don't make it a name, a common
word, or a date like your birthday.

Q: Some people claim they hear the voice of God. Is this true?
A: They are much more likely to receive email.

And as I like to put converse with fellow hu...uh well beings in a manner they can UNDERSTAND (are you with me so far Patriot? Right? I can type slower if you want. Really. I could use just my thumb, look like this dude dude dude...) I could even dig up somewhere that old office joke about assholes, you know, the one that goes :

When the Lord made man, all the parts of the body argued over who would be boss.

The brain explained, "Since I control everything and do all the thinking, I should be the boss."

The feet suggested, "Since I carry man wherever he wants to go and get him in position to do what the brain wants, then I should be the boss."

The hands argued, "Since I must do all the work and earn all the money to keep the rest of you going, I should be the boss."

And so it went with the eyes, the heart, the lungs, and all the other parts of the body, each giving the reason why they should be the boss.

Finally, the asshole spoke up and said it was going to be the boss.

All the other parts laughed and laughed at the idea of the asshole being the boss. The asshole got so mad that he closed up and refused to function.

After a few days, the brain grew feverish and could barely think, the feet felt like lead weights and were too weak to drag the body anywhere, the eyes got crossed and couldn't see, and the hands hung useless at the sides. They all conceded and made the asshole boss

And so it happened; all the other parts did all the work and the asshole just bossed and passed out a lot of crap.

THE MORAL: You don't have to be a brain to be a boss, just an asshole.

Alternate moral: No matter how well things are going, it can all be shut down by a single asshole...

Patriot

Yeah, and did you hear the one about the athiest in the foxhole?

Odd, telling jokes about yourself like that.

HomoUniversalis

A. I'd love to but I am not in a position of control over the site.

I'm not either. I made these emoticons, most of them that are avaible to your use specifically in a colour scheme that would fit this webforum. If you want another emoticon added, why not create a thread, with an emoticon you made, asking the administrators to add it? In fact, why didn't you create a thread asking whether it was possible for you to make one, and have the administrators make it? If you aren't going to do anything constructive for this website, shut the fuck up about it.

B. I meant that as a good-natured comment. Please refrain from using obscene language - at least to me, whether that's a rule of the site or not.

You call that obscene language? I don't find it obscene. I find your very presence here to be of pornographic nature. I find you obscene. I find you gross, disgusting. I will take that comment as it is, meaning I have little regard for it.

Q: How come the Age of Miracles Ended?
A: That was the development phase of the project, now we are in the
maintenance phase.

That's.. Awesome.

"I need to test whether the programs here will respond properly to wine on a wedding.. "
"Sure.. Just use the console man, change_property water wine "1" should do it. If not, I'll try creating a script for ya."
"Cool! Thanks!"

Mr U

Patriot

Yeah calling someone a female dog over a casual comment about SMILEYS is rather extreme, don't you think?

FoolOnTheHill

No, it only shows that he does not deem you worthy of a really good insult like this one (I got that one from him in an insulting-for-fun thread on another board and it has been the [censored] best insult I've seen so far, made me lmao):

"Thou depraved peddler of thine own flesh! Thou art nothing but a whore, no matter how thou doth try to justify thy deeds! Doth thou truly believe that by persuading [name of boardmember] that thou will cleanse thyself from thy foolish sins? For that, and no other word, can describe thy wicked deeds against me. I do curse thee, she-devil. I curse thee and thy wickedness to the lowest pits of hell. Search for no last rites here, the sweet redemption of Our Lord is forbidden for the likes of thee!"

But I don't know why I'm telling you this...you never will get the joke anyway...
Anyway he HAS been pretty tame with you, take it from me. Your loss. lol

That's.. Awesome.

"I need to test whether the programs here will respond properly to wine on a wedding.. "
"Sure.. Just use the console man, change_property water wine "1" should do it. If not, I'll try creating a script for ya."
"Cool! Thanks!"

Mr U

Welcome Pinky and lol at the water-wine...

Patriot

i'm really starting to think this is not my kind of site and I ought to think about leaving ... there really isn't enough Matrix stuff to talk about to justify checking these messages every day and spending all this time typing all this crap.

NMN

ThereIsNoMatrix

I hardly think this site has anything to do with the Matrix anymore... We really need to move away from this theme already.

This is a matrix site?

Patriot

yeah, twas supposed 2 be. i was lookin to see if a sorta free-form forum-based Matrix RPG sorta thing existed anywhere ... didnt find any, all such sites have shut down

anyway point was you all have neither manners nor intelligence - two of the hallmarks of a civilized man.

fateofzanzibar

I like it the way it is. We have matrix stuff if thats all you want to do. Other forums are to strick on the type of topic to allow but i dont think that we should degrade are selves to that dull complextion and lose a mildly entertaining grip on the reallity of this cold exsistance called life. But thats just me.

Arsetron

well god/gods might exist...

but personally theres nothing wrong with the site,if you dont like it patriot... leave..

simple as that bro

Patriot

no no I was talking about earlier statements made on this thread in my last post, not the site in general lol

In the future to help prevent such confusion, feel free to use the "quote" feature when replying :) It comes in rather handy.

Arsetron

crisis averted -warning klaxxons disappear gradually, dru puts down poleaxe-

alkazapper

I was born as a Roman Catholic. Raise in Catholic environment. But now, I am becoming agnostic day after day... beats the crap out of me, however... . when i found out the facts about Christianity... a have moved myself away slowly from the church i once knew as a child.

I will always remember that; Religion is a man's tool to manipulate other man, Christianity was actually started as a teaching.

Does god exists? I used to believe so, now... Im not so sure.... Anyone saw that National Geographic speacial on " Searching For Adam" ..??? Thay come up with a DNA samples called M168 (..or sumthing..) that relates us all to a super-great-ancestor................ ie...... ADAM... and guess what? He ain't White or European nor does he looks Italian like that painting of Michaelangelo.... The real ADAM was 100% Black and still ape like with a minor mutation on his brain which triggers the dawn of human population..... *sigh*.... whatevah!

I just don't know what to believe anymore......

alkazapper

I hardly think this site has anything to do with the Matrix anymore... We really need to move away from this theme already.

This used to be a damn good site for matrix fans. It was one of the reason I went away the first time. Eversince guys like Terikan, Valasher and to name a few which I no longer able to remember their names left the board, it seems that MM has less topic to come up with regarding Matrix stuff itself.

I myself spent most of my time back then lurking in the Lounge.

It's really a pity that no one seems to make an effort to dig back those brilliant comments, info or great debate and pile them up in one section as a library for future referrence for new members who wishes to seek anymore of Matrix Story(ies) or information.

This site, has change faces many time now. I must say I am impressed with whoever has done the great job. I think, the best solution now is not to kill off this site. However, its original purpose and theme should be revise. But someone has done a good job already so, I probably should just shat me mouth.... he he....

Yes.... Alkazapper was here :lol:

Patriot

I was born as a Roman Catholic. Raise in Catholic environment.

Well, there's your problem right there. The Catholic church has a long history of trying to keep the truth away from people.

I just don't know what to believe anymore......

Can't help you there. I can tell you what *I* believe, but you need to study out what you believe yourself. (contrary to what the Catholic church would have told you during most of it's history)

alkazapper

Ya know that Star Wars: Revenge of The Sith episode? That Anakin Skywalker character is much like me in ironic kind of sense. When You spend all of your time learning, believing and worshipping what you were taught to be, (or hope to be..), somewhere, somehow down that line, in your life, when you came to find out the facts, the history and the truth, yoou get that kind of sense that you feel betrayed... the fact is, it is not so hard understand however. But, it hard to swallow it in one big gulp. Ha! Whatevah!... sometimes i feel like I don't make sense anymore. I feel much better living like..... er.... Human?

veradis

DonDaddy

This used to be a damn good site for matrix fans. It was one of the reason I went away the first time. Eversince guys like Terikan, Valasher and to name a few which I no longer able to remember their names left the board, it seems that MM has less topic to come up with regarding Matrix stuff itself.

I myself spent most of my time back then lurking in the Lounge.

It's really a pity that no one seems to make an effort to dig back those brilliant comments, info or great debate and pile them up in one section as a library for future referrence for new members who wishes to seek anymore of Matrix Story(ies) or information.

And how old are these movies? I think all the worth while debate actually related to the movies has been had. Anything added now is jusr re-hashing old stuff.

As for your current relgion problems...meh, thats no big deal. Losing an illusion makes you wiser than finding a truth. You will likely lose many more in the course of your life. Improvise, adapt and over come.

alkazapper

So, are you going to turn to the Dark Side? lol

I can't really tell you what to do, you will figure out for sure what you believe one day. It may be right, and it may not be. But I don't think that it is necessarily right to just believe everything you've been spoonfed your whole life; and the church has had problems with things like this in the past (and not just the Roman Catholics, although they are a big part, I am talking about the church in general). I hope you find out the truth, but just remember that the truth isn't just what you want it to be.

:lol:... I can dig that... he he.. but then again why not? I can have sex with any one I want to, go to a bar and get drunk or risk my miserable life and get divorce and then get married again. Which is exactly the opposite of what Catholic teaches not to do.

I guess it all comes down to what nature means by "being human". We can be a good human being or the opposite, or... be both. However, being both is not acceptable in Christianity point of view. Or any other religion in that sense.

God? I believe there is a "super being" up there,...somewhere. But, if ADAM means "people" in Hebrew, surely.... God must have another meaning.

Check this out:
Taken from the book of Genesis .." Adam was cast away from heaven.."
*ADAM = means PEOPLE : in Hebrew* - in other