I have a theory that I believe is shared by many scientists and psychologists, that the concept of religion was only developed by humans to cover the simple fact that the human brain CANNOT visualise itself dying. Because the brain is unable to visualise death it created the afterlife, a mythical concept that allows the human brain to visualise death because it still exists. This concept then, because of the vast creativity of the human mind, manifested itself into a full-blown ideology that also filled in more blanks. Blanks like, how the world started and where we came from, the whole concept of god created the world and us fitted nicely with what we knew when religion first appeared.
This begs the question, does 'God' exist, and the simple answer to that question is that god does not, at least not in a physical state. With the advent of modern science we can prove that god did not create the universe and that we did evolve from apes, and this does put a damper on the Adam and Eve idea. This is now a conclusion most educated societies are coming to, the fact that Christianity and Judaism has seen a dramatic decline in followers certainly proved this. This then begs another question, do you need religion now? We don’t need it to fill in the blanks of the past, we all still have to believe in a higher plain so we can overcome the fact that we cannot visualise not existing, but do we need religion? There are certainly reasons to say that a world without religion would be a good place, the simple fact that 95% of all wars recorded were directly started on grounds of religion is a good enough reason. The middle eastern troubles would almost cease to exist with out religion, the fact is that religion try’s to unify humans, but it actually splits us to an unbelievable degree. The fact that now humans do not NEED religion surely means that religion should cease to be.
I don’t mean to offend anyone how has strong religious by the way.
That’s my opinion anyway, what are your thoughts? So basically you are saying that now science has proven the Bible, Thora, Koran and most other Religions wrong, religions have become obsolete?
If that is indeed the case, than I agree, and I'm sure many others feel that way. Still, we should never try to stimulate this change. Although religion may (may, I'm leaving this as a hypothesis) be the cause for war, this does not mean that anyone has the right to declare other people should change their ideas.
Until science can prove to me that the everything around me actually exists, and that this is indeed not some kind of Matrix, each and every science based upon that knowledge is flawed. Both science and religion are flawed because of this simple fact.
It's like democracy. Our system is imperfect. In this state of imperfectness, do we have the right to correct other, perhaps lesser systems?
In any case, I'm for freedom of thought, and if people want to believe in some All-powerful Deity, I'll let them. Just don't expect me to abide the rules of your Holy Scripture.
Mr U It is because of science proving facts to us that religion does have less of an impact on society, there are more athiests and agnostics now than in previous centuries, but there are also people that are deep set in their ways and need religion. It will take many centuries more to eradicate religion, indeed many millenias more, and that was if people wanted to no longer follow a spiritual path.
I agree, the vast majority of war is caused by religion and I honestly think that we could be better off without it, however that way of thinking is still the minority, like I say, it will take a long time to change things. This isn't a matter of freedom of speech or demcracy, its a matter of belief and that is very deeply set in our society. Actually, I think this should be in the Religion section. Technicality, anyway. :D
Anyway, I quite agree with your idea. This was discussed in a class of mine and it did turn out that there generally isn't much going for religion at this point. Some may say that they need the faith religion gives them, but how would we know that isn't a feeling created by society? Many countries bereft of religion are in fact thriving much better than those with, and the current situations undoubtably don't breed many of faith.
Yet to forcibly stop it in one sweep...this is impossible. It has been tried, mind you. Look up Communist Russia. It failed, miserably. Yet look at the way the world has given up old customs like human sacrifices, deep sexual and racial discrimination...if religion is to fade away, it will be by process of nature and nature alone. Since right now faith is still an important need (or at least, percieved need) to us, that would still take some time. Actually, I think this should be in the Religion section. Technicality, anyway. :D
Huh? There isn't a religion section! Maybe youre thinking of MH.
Anyway, yeah, I quite agree, but there is no way you can ever actually get rid of religion, not without going on a Hitler-like rampaging slaughter of every person with the slightest belief in a deity. Guess we're gonna have to live wih it... Quick memo: We didn't evovle from apes, we merely had a common ancestor some 2.5 million years ago or so. With that said,
I have to say that I agree that religion is no longer serving any true practicality. With the advent of modern science, there is no longer a need to describe situations in terms of the supernatural. However, that is not to say that religion is obsolete.
There are a certain number of people in society (I know a number of Wiccans in my own area that particularly believe this) that believe that though "god" as the concept of the divine did not exist to create humans and the natural world as we have come to know it, but rather that the divine has come to exist by our giving it substance and reality.
Now follow me for a moment. This theory implicates that by humans giving conscious thought (prayer, ritual, and the like) to the divine/diety that we (humans) have actually managed to create a form of the divine. Now do I believe this, not really. I am firmly and comfortably agnostic. I do not disbelieve nor do I believe. I would like to know what the rest of you think about this theory. Is it possible? Ah. Whether or not this is possible depends on how you look at it. What's that saying again....'sometimes the idea of a God can be more true than the God itself.' Basically that though God doesn't exist physically, what life we put into its existance serves as its existance itself, through pure faith. e.g. A faith in doing good deeds for God creating the idea of a God placing a do-gooder exactly where he seemed he was meant to be.
This idea is more philosophical or literary than literal, though as expected the idea was bound to be taken at face value, and explored in various texts/stories. Episodes like 'Who mourns for Adonais' in Star Trek, for instance. Quick memo: We didn't evolve from apes; we merely had a common ancestor some 2.5 million years ago or so. With that said,
Well I was generalising, we did however evolve from ape like animals. It has now been found that we have always been humans; it’s just that we were very ape like, the only difference being that we walked on two legs. This destroyed the theory that we evolved from apes walking on all fours. We evolved beyond the ape like form because of two things, a much larger brain and the fact that we walked on two legs and thus were taller than other animals, this allowed us to see over the tall grass of savannah and see predators coming far away, this allowed us to thrive.
Anyway that’s a bit off topic.
Another point that many of you have made about the theory that I but forward is that you thought I meant to force out religion. I didn’t mean this, although I can see how you would think I would, I actually meant that religion has no purpose in the modern world.
I also agree with many of you that religion does still serve a purpose, when someone dies or there is a tragedy, religion does provide closure. But beyond this I believe religion becomes corrupt and very unproductive in a modern society. Hmmm. Just for fun, let's examine what exactly causes religion to deviate from its purpose. Here are my views:
First, that religion is written down or spoken, and then complete faith is placed on these forms of communication. Communication is itself flawed; how can a book tell you what life you should lead unerringly? Must you take every fable and value literally? Of course not. Yet people do, and it breeds close-mindedness, restricting the way of thinking.
Next, that complete faith is at all placed anywhere. Religion is a guide. When ideas like 'There is one true God, die before admitting anything else' proliferate, there is bound to be large amounts of friction with other poly-god religions and so on. It's when people start raising banners around their camps that all wars start. Religion is only a prominent aspect of this.
Anyone else inspired? To me, if we improve these, religion can be turned into a true force of good for society; no need for removal. So far in my opinion, Buddhism and Taoism (it's true form, not the materialistic one) are closer to this aim. To me, the religion that makes the most sense is Buddhism. There is no God as such, but it's all about achiving your life's purpose. This idea, in fact, deviates from the modern world idealism entirely, where as soon as possible, everyone around you tells you to go to school, get good grades, get a good job, work your ass off, die. In my opinion, there are three sides to this sword. We have people who follow a certain religion, those who are unsure of to either follow a religion, and those that do not follow a relgion, nor believe in it. Relisious people, people who are agnostic, and people who are athiest's.
Religion has been deeply embedded into a lot of things into this world. Removing religion, is like severing off someone's limbs. And in the case of people, it would hurt them as such, and cause them to get defensive, and feel persecuted. Relgious people are deep set in their ways that the faith they beleive in, barring Buddhism, and Taoism, which are more philosophical ways of life, is the right way to live life, and in a sense, "fill the blanks" as beenniehut so aptly put it.
People who are agnostic, do not know what to believe, though they believe in something, thus creating the sense of uncertaintay of their faith. Well, faith in itself does not require you to believe in a religion. The fact that people all over the world says it does, is morally wrong. Agnostic people are merely trying to figure things out for themselves, and are stuck between Religion, and Atheism.
Athiesm. This, in my opinion, is not a belief, just someone's choice wheter or not to believe in God or not. I know a few people who are Athiests, and they are no different from me, their faith is just placed into something else, and they believe whatever they want to believe. But there is something that angers me about when people I know call Athiests, Satanic Worshippers.
Here's a hint to all religions...just because someone chooses not to believe in God, does not automatially mean they worship Satan, cause if they don't believe in God, Satan isn't believed in as well.
I do agree with war being either fought over religion and or by politcal means, that are backed by a relgious shield. Thats why I believe the war in Iraq is an assault on Islam by Christianity, and Im not the only one who thinks that, or probably has thought of it. Then again...people who are hard set into their relgion, or faith, will not release it without a fight. Thats why I believe religion will never be erased by time, only by conflict.
Hmm, oh, and to stay on topic, the fact that a 2000 year old book has created all this controversy, imagine what 2000 years of figthing, tying to remove religion, and or prove it wrong, would do? Thanks...I actually didn't know the meaning of agnostic. At least now I know I'm firmly in that camp. :p
Now religion...see, the question about religion isn't about whether it should be eliminated now (impossible as you rightly stated Hax) but whether in time it will or can prove itself obsolete. It's like eating meat. If the world was slowly taught to abstain from meat and to forget what meat tasted like, its very logical that in a few centuries' time we can indeed be vegetarians. For me, I would believe so, though humanity would admittedly lose alot of its flavour. I believe more on a refinement of religion, so that it may once again be viewed as a teaching and an art form than a forceful code of life. I have to agree with you Haxxor and MacLeod, in that religion cannot be eliminated as that would be denying people a very basic right, and that is their faith. To take religion away from someone would be to take away their hope for life and for a future. I believe that it is important to allow people their faith and hope.
Agnostic doesn't necessarily mean you believe in something and are uncertain of it; it literally means that you do not believe, yet you do disbelieve. I myself, am agnostic. I'm a literally minded person and want proof through experience that there is some form of the divine (God, whatever) before I open myself to it.
The main problem, as I see it, with religion today is that is has become too materialistic and is so far imbedded with how people identify themselves. It is a banner of sorts, especially here in the States, for people to say I belong to this religion so aren't I different and cool. The reversion to earth-based religions (primarily Wicca where I'm at) is a form of this. The only good thing is that the earth-based religions are more philisophical and less materialistic.
The American way of life has promoted the ideal that more is better. I think religion has to change how they view materialism. You go from some forms that promote it (not sure exactly which branc of Christianity-I get confused as there's some 100 or more forms out there) and others that say its a cardinal sin. I have personally seen both extremes. Maybe moving away from organized religion towards a more eclectic and self-disciplined religion is what people need. As a number of you have said, Buddhism and Toaism. Something about Eastern religions... :) Love to hear others takes on this! I would just like to say that I didn’t mean to say that I would abolish the concept of religion, just that I believe that it is obsolete in modern society as it no longer servers its original purpose of explaining the origin of the human race and the universe.
However I would also like to add that religion does, I believe have a redeeming factor, it does give hope to people in need. If you lose a family member or friend then many turn to religion to aid there recovery, and I believe that is what religion should be, a casual belief that people turn to when its needed. I again wish to say that I do not mean that I would want to force people into this belief, I just believe this is the best way forward for religion. *Ahem*
First let me say that science has proved absolutely jack about the history of the universe. The BB and evolution are both theroies, not proven facts. Given, religion is not proven fact either. The difference is that religion is based upon faith. Faith is the belief in something that you cannot necessarily see.
I do not understand the claim that wars have happened because of religion. The only conflict I can think of that was really about that were the Crusades. The thing in Iraq right now has a little bit to do with Muslim, but its not the core issue. Most war has been caused by man's need for power or persecution of a race.
WWI-Fighting over borders and allies.
WWII-Persecution of the Jews by the Nazis and because of Axis power hunger.
Fall of the Roman Empire-Got too big because emperors wanted too much power and Rome couldn't control it all
American War for Independence-Didn't like the way the Brits handled things
American Civil War-South didn't like the north telling it what to do.
Religion provides hope for many. It provides hope for people who are in dark situations for a brighter tomorrow. It provides consolation for those who maybe have lost a loved one.
Basically, all things about human origins are theories and nothing more. Including religion. Science is not proven fact, neither is religion. So, when people ask me (I'm Christian) "well, where'd we come from?", I say "I don't know exactly." Because no one does for sure. Nobody can really prove where we came from. Everyone's entitled to what they believe. Religion is not on its way out. I see it as religion has just been brought down to a more personal level instead of out in the world for all. Yep, I agree to a certain extent. Science is entirely theory, but then so is religion. Remarkable really, these 2 things that determine life the most are in fact, non-factual. No fact is truly proven, we are free to attach our own conclusions. I'll give you that. However, following logic, science gives a much more reasonable and likely approximation of the truth, of what truly happened, much more than religion, which often completely relies on assumptions.
Evolution is indeed a theory, but one heavily supported on facts. Opposed to the zero proof that can be supplied of God, my choice is easily made. I agree that war was rarely a 100% motivator, yet it has played a role in almost every war nonetheless. Hitler was, in the case you were wondering, a devoted Christian. Also, the feeling of expansion often flows out of the idea that they should crush the opponents, because they do not believe in the same gods, and are thus inferior. Superiority often follows from holy scriptures, never from science.
Mr U *Sigh of relief* I'm so glad that you guys understood what I was trying to say. So many people don't I just found this amazing letter somewhere else on the web, and I felt I had to publish it for all you Christians/Jews out there. Oh, and if you are islamic, don't worry about a thing. I know you aren't hypocritical, because you do actually kill people if you they don't follow your scriptures :).
Mr U
The Way Life Would Be if Scripture Were Followed Without Question
Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination... End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.
1. Leviticus 25:44 also states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.
4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is, my neighbours. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
5. I have neighbours who insist on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask he police to do it?
6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev.11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?
7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?
8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?
9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread(cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws?(Lev.20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help.
Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
Your adoring fan,
carpe diem, lash even though i'm Christian, that was kinda funny. I would go into a long detail explaining and defending all this that and the other thing but I'm just going to laugh. What is not so funny is the fear people have that someone might prefer the holy scriptures above the law. The Quran, Thora, Bible... They all have verses that can quickly be turned against our society and can be the root of a mass-murder.
Should the Bible be altered to make these texts more clear and make sure that people can not misinterpret them to give them divine clearance to murder, well, me? I believe so. If we can not assure that people will prefer law over holyness, I believe we should make sure that that holyness obeys the law.
And I know you can defend it, ichi_ban1. Still, it is still open to misinterpretation.
Mr U What is not so funny is the fear people have that someone might prefer the holy scriptures above the law. The Quran, Thora, Bible... They all have verses that can quickly be turned against our society and can be the root of a mass-murder.
Should the Bible be altered to make these texts more clear and make sure that people can not misinterpret them to give them divine clearance to murder, well, me? I believe so. If we can not assure that people will prefer law over holyness, I believe we should make sure that that holyness obeys the law.
And I know you can defend it, ichi_ban1. Still, it is still open to misinterpretation.
Mr U
How very true HU, and how many times has it been used as an excuse for so many wars? Far too many. Though for it to be altered by mans hands any further? I believe that no matter how you try and alter it it would remain available to take out of context. Even if we were to underline and put in bold letters on the front page "DON'T USE FOR MISINTERPERETATION, WARS, MASS MURDER, OR SOCIAL PROPLEMS YOU MIGHT HAVE. EVER!"
People love scape goats, and ones that can't talk back are even better... People who interpret the bible as a way to not obey misinterpret it. The bible clearly states that if you do not follow the laws of man, it displeases God. People who interpret the bible as a way to not obey misinterpret it. The bible clearly states that if you do not follow the laws of man, it displeases God.
It does? Please refer me to a verse!
^This is not me sarcastic or ironic, I am actually excited, because this could have rather large implications for some of the discussions I am having with people who value the freedom of speech less (apparantly) than I do. Thank you in advance :)
Mr U Religion is not the problem. Human beings are the problem. Some of you have touched upon this though without actually saying it. I am a Christian. I believe in God and that Jesus Christ died for our sins. I do not consider myself religious. I am certainly spiritual. I truly respect everyone's opinions here. The only thing I noticed is how some of you seem to think religion is this outdated THING that needs re-modeled or eliminated. Spirituality is an abstraction of someone's soul, not some tangible object that has a shelf-life. Unfortunately, religions get the blame for the imperfections of human beings. We are still quite a primitive race of beings in my opinion. It's what people DO with religion that is at issue.
I do not belong to any denomination of Christianity. I say I am not religious because I don't believe matters of the soul should be institutionalized and subjected to fundamental doctrine. For me, God and I are on a one-on-one basis. I agree with MacLeod in a way; not so much that religion could be improved, or could evolve into a beautiful art form for the soul, but rather that the human race could improve.
I have had experiences that have certainly reinforced my belief in God. Mainly, I believe in the soul and spirit of human beings. With that, there is no way I could think that there isn't anything beyond this life. I know that the parameters of the human mind only go so far; therefore, I choose to hope for good things beyond death. To me, thinking that there is nothing after death is a downer..........depressing. I don't want to live that way.
I mentioned that I have had experiences that reinforce my belief. I have had experiences in which I was able to avoid danger only because the dangerous event flashed in my mind before it happened. I remember one time in particular, when I was probably 13 or 14, my mother and I lived in a townhouse and she was dating this terrible man. One day we were getting ready to meet my grandparents for dinner. At the last minute, my mother starting mentioning that she really did not want to go. As she began contemplating, now don't laugh at me, an inner voice simply said, "Something is going to happen" and I became frightened for no apparent reason. I insisted that we go. We did. We arrived at the restaurant and we're surprised that our grandparents weren't there yet. After waiting for quite sometime, one of my mother's friends showed up and informed us that Bill, the terrible man, had broken into our house in a drug-induced rampage and burned it down. We drove back immediately and sure enough.............house in flames...........Bill sitting in a police car. Had my mother and I not gone..........well you can fill in the blank.
I attribute my warning to God. Now some would say, "Well that was just a brain impulse here going up to that part of the brain there, ya da ya da" BUT, here's is the flaw with science as I think HU was mentioning and I have touched upon while discussing the Matrix films: You can tell me How........but you can't tell my Why. We can't ever know the Why. Our brains aren't there yet and might not ever be. But I choose to be imaginative and speculate.
agnosticism: The doctrine of nescience; especially the philosophical theory that man cannot know first truths, ultimate causes, or anything beyond material phenomena. Theology : The doctrine that God is unknown and unknowable: distinguished from atheism.
atheism: The belief that there is no God. Godlessness in life or conduct.
Certainly, a difference here between making a choice to believe or not making the choice based on the fact that we cannot know "the Why". Romans 13:1-4 says:
Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God and the authorites that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgement on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same. For he is God's minister to you fro good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword if vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. Humans.They'll never cease to amaze me.They'll diffend their religion in a fearce manner.But when you ask them why they believe in that particular religion,they get lost.Most people who believe in a certain God,instead of another do so because they were raised as such.They dont know why.They do it because their parents did it.And their parent's parent's did it.That is why i respect more those who go from one religion to another.Because no matter what you can say,you can NEVER be sure that if you were born muslim or jewish instead of christian,you'd switch to this religion because you believe its better!And yet they fight.Humans fight to defend their religion.Yet they have no idea what the other religions hold.Sure you hear this and that.Thats not enough to make judgement.Unless you know all religions 100%,you cannot judge one has better than another.The religions cause many wars.Indeed.But because humans are stupid.
Humans.They'll never cease to amaze me.They discover 2 meaningless things,and their ego makes them believe they know all.Science doesnt know shit!Science will tell you how this little thing here and that little thing there work.It'll never tell you why they work as such!Compare the number of things we know,and the number of answerless questions out there.You'll see how ridiculous our ignorance is.Humans amaze themselves.Blind themselves in arrogance.This will lead to their destruction.Ironicaly,this is one moral i actually learned watching The Matrix!
The theories.Pro-darwinists say that their theory can be proven when you look at the fact that we share about 99% of our genes with primates.Things get stupid when you learn that we share between 97%-99% of our genes with all mamals!!!The list of stupid stuff that come out of their " theories" just goes on.And they say God is a ridiculous creation of the mind.
God.There's this one thing one of my friends brought to my attention.Say God doesnt exist and the universe originated from the BB.Now this means that at intant t=-1,theres abosolutely nothing right?Thus no energy.But we all know ( i hope) that energy cannot be created.It transforms itself,but is never destroyed either.So if theres no energy to begin with,were does the initial burst of energy come from?Thus the energy as to already exist.Guess who that energy is??Of course,scientists try and defend their theory...by using theories.They use all they can.Anti matter coliding with matter because of an instability,bla bla.They dont know shit!We dont know shit.
Does God exist?I dont know.But like another one of my friends pointed out,its a win-win situation!You see if God exists,and you believe in him(lets disgard the religion),you'll eventually go to heaven.Now if he doesnt,but you still believed in him,you'll die happy and thats it.Since like Descartes(or was it Pascal??) said " the though 'i am dead' cannot be! ",then the hell with it!!Why care since its over?You wont know you're dead.Why care.So its a win win situation.Doesnt make things bright.It just makes it easier to swallow! :D people care because life is a never ending quest for knowledge according to some Humans.They'll never cease to amaze me.They'll diffend their religion in a fearce manner.But when you ask them why they believe in that particular religion,they get lost.Most people who believe in a certain God,instead of another do so because they were raised as such.They dont know why.They do it because their parents did it.And their parent's parent's did it.That is why i respect more those who go from one religion to another.Because no matter what you can say,you can NEVER be sure that if you were born muslim or jewish instead of christian,you'd switch to this religion because you believe its better!And yet they fight.Humans fight to defend their religion.Yet they have no idea what the other religions hold.Sure you hear this and that.Thats not enough to make judgement.Unless you know all religions 100%,you cannot judge one has better than another.The religions cause many wars.Indeed.But because humans are stupid.
Humans.They'll never cease to amaze me.They discover 2 meaningless things,and their ego makes them believe they know all.Science doesnt know shit!Science will tell you how this little thing here and that little thing there work.It'll never tell you why they work as such!Compare the number of things we know,and the number of answerless questions out there.You'll see how ridiculous our ignorance is.Humans amaze themselves.Blind themselves in arrogance.This will lead to their destruction.Ironicaly,this is one moral i actually learned watching The Matrix!
The theories.Pro-darwinists say that their theory can be proven when you look at the fact that we share about 99% of our genes with primates.Things get stupid when you learn that we share between 97%-99% of our genes with all mamals!!!The list of stupid stuff that come out of their " theories" just goes on.And they say God is a ridiculous creation of the mind.
God.There's this one thing one of my friends brought to my attention.Say God doesnt exist and the universe originated from the BB.Now this means that at intant t=-1,theres abosolutely nothing right?Thus no energy.But we all know ( i hope) that energy cannot be created.It transforms itself,but is never destroyed either.So if theres no energy to begin with,were does the initial burst of energy come from?Thus the energy as to already exist.Guess who that energy is??Of course,scientists try and defend their theory...by using theories.They use all they can.Anti matter coliding with matter because of an instability,bla bla.They dont know shit!We dont know shit.
Does God exist?I dont know.But like another one of my friends pointed out,its a win-win situation!You see if God exists,and you believe in him(lets disgard the religion),you'll eventually go to heaven.Now if he doesnt,but you still believed in him,you'll die happy and thats it.Since like Descartes(or was it Pascal??) said " the though 'i am dead' cannot be! ",then the hell with it!!Why care since its over?You wont know you're dead.Why care.So its a win win situation.Doesnt make things bright.It just makes it easier to swallow! :D
In the beginning of your statement, you pretty much state what I did. Towards the end, you cite the philosophy of the Great Wager where it is the logical bet to believe in God whether or not one knows if he exists.
To me, if someone cannot feel the presence of a higher spirit, one must be out of touch with his/her own feelings towards the events that happen in their own life. Arrogance permeates the non-spiritual mind............. Arrogance permeates the non-spiritual mind.............
How true.How very true. Arrogance seems to cause a lot of problems in the world......anyways, sorry back on topic. Belief in God as I have said before has all to do about faith, belief in something you cannot necessarily see Exactly. Humans cannot see beyong their own lives so they create the idea of a "God" and an "Afterlife". It really is as simple as that. Belief in God as I have said before has all to do about faith, belief in something you cannot necessarily see
Thats it.But some people dont get it.Since they cant see God,they say:
Exactly. Humans cannot see beyong their own lives so they create the idea of a "God" and an "Afterlife". It really is as simple as that.
Now i've always wondered why these kind of people believe in things they dont understand( most scientific theories) and not in God.Scientists themselves refused to believe that the earth was round and a satelite to the Sun.Because there was a time where all you could do was believe what you could see.Now any 10 year old will laught at any 15th century scientist if he tells him that.
I see it like this.People wonder,why isnt God showing himself?If he did,there wouldnt be faith would there?The sole fact of believig in God without seeing Him is the whole point.Like I said,I dont know if God exists or not.But i'll never jump to any conclusions because i trust stupid scientific theories.They teach me their "knowledge",its just so f***ing stupid!
Honestly,religion being a creation of the human mind in fear to confront its own demize is perfectly logical.But we just never know the truth. "Stupid scientific theories"? "its just so f***ing stupid!" ?
I would rather trust a theory based on observations than a theory based on speculations that has been translated for many times. By now, the chance that what you are reading was what Christ said is as much as me getting a blowjob this year. And trust me, it ain't gonna happen.
Science can not be blamed for anything. Science is a way of viewing things. It attempts to utilise imperfect observation and approximate truth. Of course scientists say believing the earth is flat as absurd, because we can prove it isn't. We will also state that the idea women existing are absurd as soon as we can prove they don't exist. Science attempts to create laws from observations made. Although Hume teaches us that this is, at its very core, wrong (Past experience can never predict the future), it has allowed us to create some regularities.
Anyway, if science is so 'stupid', what are you doing behind a computer? The way this board works is based on Math. Computers use math, and math is very much a science.
Does God exist?I dont know.But like another one of my friends pointed out,its a win-win situation!You see if God exists,and you believe in him(lets disgard the religion),you'll eventually go to heaven.Now if he doesnt,but you still believed in him,you'll die happy and thats it.Since like Descartes(or was it Pascal??) said " the though 'i am dead' cannot be! ",then the hell with it!!Why care since its over?You wont know you're dead.Why care.So its a win win situation.Doesnt make things bright.It just makes it easier to swallow!
This is not a win-win situation. I am atheïst. I believe nothing exists but what I can prove to exist. Believing in some all-powerful, supernatural deity is absurd, and unless it can be proven, I refuse to believe it.
Faith, as some people call it, do not give them more strength than me. I have learned that in the years that I live I will do the best to my abilities to have a frickin' good time. I am not inhibited by the laws put up by some clergy, intented on preserving his own power.
I am not arrogant. I have never said God does not exist. After all, Occam's razor tells me you have to prove the existence of God, not vice versa. I only believe in what I can prove, and I hardly feel God, should he exist, would disrespect me for it. I believe scepticism is a good trait, and looking back at Nazi-Germany, I wish it was a trait more people would have shared. Disobedience can actually be better than blindly serving the authorities.
Anyway, if you just take a look at your own post, you will see the arrogance with which you post. Believing you know the truth, and other people are fools suffering from ignorance is arrogance. I respect others for the opinion they share, and I do not try to force mine unto them. I will debate my point, but that is that.
Tertium Datur.
Mr U Anyway, if science is so 'stupid', what are you doing behind a computer? The way this board works is based on Math. Computers use math, and math is very much a science.
this is what you quoted from me :
"Stupid scientific theories"? "its just so f***ing stupid!" ?
there's a difference between fact and theory.I just find it stupid they refute God's existence because of " lack of proof" while their theories a just like that,unprovable.
By now, the chance that what you are reading was what Christ said is as much as me getting a blowjob this year. And trust me, it ain't gonna happen.
I fell out of christianity long ago,mainly for this reason.Like i said,its only if you know all religions that you can judge them.I'm still searching.
I have never said God does not exist
explain this then:I am atheïst.
anyway, if you just take a look at your own post, you will see the arrogance with which you post. Believing you know the truth, and other people are fools suffering from ignorance is arrogance. I respect others for the opinion they share, and I do not try to force mine unto them. I will debate my point, but that is that
lol.Maybe.But i dont know the thruth now do I?Thing is,what i'm trying to say is that no one can know the truth.I'm not forcing my opinion on others for i do not have one.I'm still searching. Being an atheïst has nothing to do with not acknowledging God. It has to do with not acknowledging religion as a valid way of gathering knowledge.
Simply because science can not reveal the Ultimate Truth does not mean one should rely on complete fiction. Science approximates Truth.
Yesterday, I walked up the stairs (from the ground level to the first floor) and entered the bathroom. My sister, who was on the first floor and in search of my mother, who was on the ground floor, thought I was mother, and went over to the bathroom where she found me.
Now, knowing that someone was still downstairs, and that only the three of us were home, she concluded that my mother was downstairs, and she went downstairs. That is science. Seeing that something you thought earlier was wrong, but learning from your mistake, and making a new conclusion. Had my mother gone away, and my father had been downstairs, she would have drawn a new conclusion.
Science is about ruling the errors wrong, creating a more and more realistic image of the world. It is not about supplying the pure and simple truth. Religion, au contraire, takes the scientific accusations of 2000 years ago, or earlier, creates rules that fit some cultures, and follows this dogmatic doctrine for ever, without adapting it's rules. You see, if religion acknowledged science, and claimed that God was the chance that our universe exists as it does today, I would become 'religious'.
Searching, huh? Well, I'm not. I know that not a person on this planet has any more of a clue whether God exists or not, and I know that I am on my own when it comes to that. I will live my life in the simple knowledge that at the end I will feel complete with everything I have done. I do not need or desire an afterlife. I do not need an eternity of heaven, if I can have eighty(?) years of beauty right now.
Mr U Being an atheïst has nothing to do with not acknowledging God.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=atheist
Funny you call yourself something you do not even know the definition of.
Simply because science can not reveal the Ultimate Truth does not mean one should rely on complete fiction. Science approximates Truth.
Science refutes everything until it can prove it.Thats what i disagree with.I just find that stupid.
Science is about ruling the errors wrong, creating a more and more realistic image of the world. It is not about supplying the pure and simple truth. Religion, au contraire, takes the scientific accusations of 2000 years ago, or earlier, creates rules that fit some cultures, and follows this dogmatic doctrine for ever, without adapting it's rules. You see, if religion acknowledged science, and claimed that God was the chance that our universe exists as it does today, I would become 'religious'.
I'll have you know theres a religion out there that clearly states that the earth is round and that it is a satellite to the sun nearly 1000 years before Copernicus.It also states that diseases are caused by small animals we cannot see(bacteria..) also a millenium before the first microscopes.It explains that intercourse with a close relative can result in genetic deficiencies,way before anybody knew what a cell was!!This religion encourages scientific research!!!Do you know why?Confidence!It is confident that whatever it holds is true.Since its the truth,all scientific facts will eventually come to prove it right?Most religions fear science because it makes them look ridiculous.This one wants you to search more,just to find the truth.It's truth.
Like i said,you cannot judge a religion if you do not know all of them.Go look for which religion it is i am talking about.I know you'll find it.And you'll find that all that i have said above is true!Just hope you wont be hypocrite and deny everything when you do. I'll have you know theres a religion out there that clearly states that the earth is round and that it is a satellite to the sun nearly 1000 years before Copernicus.It also states that diseases are caused by small animals we cannot see(bacteria..) also a millenium before the first microscopes.It explains that intercourse with a close relative can result in genetic deficiencies,way before anybody knew what a cell was!!This religion encourages scientific research!!!Do you know why?Confidence!It is confident that whatever it holds is true.Since its the truth,all scientific facts will eventually come to prove it right?Most religions fear science because it makes them look ridiculous.This one wants you to search more,just to find the truth.It's truth.
Like i said,you cannot judge a religion if you do not know all of them.Go look for which religion it is i am talking about.I know you'll find it.And you'll find that all that i have said above is true!Just hope you wont be hypocrite and deny everything when you do.
Do you expect me to open my eyes to some new rose-coloured world? My 'religion' acknowledges science. I'm sure there are others who feel like me.
Apparantly atheism is mistranslated on quite some sites. Atheism, in my definition, means against belief in God. I do not deny the existence of God. I simply state that there is no proof to support that God exists. Thus, in my view, there is no God. That is, in my view, atheism. I couldn't care less what dictionary.com tells people.
Atheism, like any other view of the world surpasses a five-word definition. I would expect someone 'looking for a religion' to acknowledge that.
Science refutes everything until it can prove it.Thats what i disagree with.I just find that stupid.
If I told you that I am the supreme God and that the only way you can serve me is by shooting 10 people around you, and than yourself, will you believe me? Now, don't tell me you are going to 'refute' that....
Mr U Do you expect me to open my eyes to some new rose-coloured world? My 'religion' acknowledges science. I'm sure there are others who feel like me.
I didnt expect you to believe me.Most people dont at first.Then when they get the proof,they say its a hoax.I know its exactly what you'll say after you find it(if you search for it that is.)It doesnt change the fact that this is true.
You see,there are those humans who desperetly need to believe in God,then there are the ones who desperetly believe in his not existing.It is religious to them.That is your faith.To deny.Just like any religion denies all others.You are just like the others.Too bad.
If I told you that I am the supreme God and that the only way you can serve me is by shooting 10 people around you, and than yourself, will you believe me? Now, don't tell me you are going to 'refute' that..
*~sight~*
I'm not saying to blindly believe.I'm saying to not take everything as false until you can prove they are right.Science you see isnt fair.It doesnt obey the law!To me,you are innocent until proven guilty,right until proven wrong.
In this case,I'll believe you!You'd be the first person i'd shoot at,to verify what you are saying,but i'll believe you to start out with. I do not deny the existance of anything, since my perception of this world is imperfect and incapable of determination. I simply do not believe in what can not be proven.
In case you were wondering, I am not in search for a religion, as I am quite happy with my own, and I'm sure that if some deity exists, and that if he wants me to dedicate my life to me, he will prove his own existence to me beyond 'faith'.
That is your faith.To deny.Just like any religion denies all others.You are just like the others.Too bad.
Actually, you know nothing about me, at all. Again, I do not deny the existance of God, I simply state that I do not believe in him, as I have been presented no proof. I guess I am like others in not accepting what other people tell me as the Ultimate Truth. Being naive is not the same as being innocent, and it is most certainly not a virtue.
Mr U I do not deny the existance of anything, since my perception of this world is imperfect and incapable of determination. I simply do not believe in what can not be proven.
In case you were wondering, I am not in search for a religion, as I am quite happy with my own, and I'm sure that if some deity exists, and that if he wants me to dedicate my life to me, he will prove his own existence to me beyond 'faith'.
Actually, you know nothing about me, at all. Again, I do not deny the existance of God, I simply state that I do not believe in him, as I have been presented no proof. I guess I am like others in not accepting what other people tell me as the Ultimate Truth. Being naive is not the same as being innocent, and it is most certainly not a virtue.
Mr U
I am confused HU........you do not DENY the existance of God........yet you do not believe in him because, to you, there is no proof...........is this not a contradiction? Now before you pounce on me, I just want you to know that I am asking objectively, respectfully, and with the best intentions. I am curious about your position. I do not deny the existance of anything, since my perception of this world is imperfect and incapable of determination. I simply do not believe in what can not be proven.
In case you were wondering, I am not in search for a religion, as I am quite happy with my own, and I'm sure that if some deity exists, and that if he wants me to dedicate my life to me, he will prove his own existence to me beyond 'faith'.
Quote:
That is your faith.To deny.Just like any religion denies all others.You are just like the others.Too bad.
Actually, you know nothing about me, at all. Again, I do not deny the existance of God, I simply state that I do not believe in him, as I have been presented no proof. I guess I am like others in not accepting what other people tell me as the Ultimate Truth. Being naive is not the same as being innocent, and it is most certainly not a virtue.
Mr U
ok.
....................................................................................................... I am confused HU........you do not DENY the existance of God........yet you do not believe in him because, to you, there is no proof...........is this not a contradiction? Now before you pounce on me, I just want you to know that I am asking objectively, respectfully, and with the best intentions. I am curious about your position.
I do not deny the existance of aliens. Do I believe there are intelligent, extra-terrestial lifeforms out there in this universe? No. Do I believe there is a possibility that there is? Yes.
I do not deny the existance of God. Do I believe there is a God out there in this universe? No. Do I believe there is a possibility that there is? Yes.
I do not deny the existance of anything, since 'existance' is something I can not prove (Cogito Ergo Sum: The only thing I can scientifically know is that I exist. I might be God, and you might just be figments of my imagination), I simply state that with the knowledge I have I do not believe he exists. Do I deny the fact that he exists? No.
Further, my state of atheist has nothing to do with disrespect of religion. I feel that everyone should be able to feel and believe what they want. Still, what I do not want and what I do not agree with is that people force their own religion as something perfect unto others.
Anomolous, I only pounce people who treat me as untermensch :). Thus, I will not pounce you :D.
Mr U I do not deny the existance of aliens. Do I believe there are intelligent, extra-terrestial lifeforms out there in this universe? No. Do I believe there is a possibility that there is? Yes.
I do not deny the existance of God. Do I believe there is a God out there in this universe? No. Do I believe there is a possibility that there is? Yes.
I do not deny the existance of anything, since 'existance' is something I can not prove (Cogito Ergo Sum: The only thing I can scientifically know is that I exist. I might be God, and you might just be figments of my imagination), I simply state that with the knowledge I have I do not believe he exists. Do I deny the fact that he exists? No.
Further, my state of atheist has nothing to do with disrespect of religion. I feel that everyone should be able to feel and believe what they want. Still, what I do not want and what I do not agree with is that people force their own religion as something perfect unto others.
Anomolous, I only pounce people who treat me as untermensch :). Thus, I will not pounce you :D.
Mr U
I understand. It makes sense and I respect your thinking. I am definitely NOT a Christian who wears his spirituality on his sleeve. And, I agree with you that spiritual beliefs should not be imposed upon others. This is a major reason why I voted for John Kerry in this past election. Oh and hey..........I did not ever think that your atheistic standpoint was disrespectful to religion..........just wanted to make sure you knew that. :D Hmmm............UNTERMENSCH?!?!?!?! I'll have to look that one up. :) the idea that 95% of wars begin with religions conflict can be a week idea if we know that all this wars make religions just a way to find a reason to have lands , stratigy plzaces , fortunes , and many reasons that we dont have to explain it now ...
the idea that im talking about is , religions is just a way , not reason , and if there is no religions anymore , so they will find so many ways to have a war ...
am i right ?? Well, as you presented it as a possibility, I presume you are right :).
I agree with you that without religion, people would have found different reasons to go to war. However, one must wonder if anyone would follow. I would not risk my own life but for defense of my freedom. I will not spend my death bombing innocents so I can have 72 virgins at my disposal.
What I mean, is that without religion, people would still find reasons, but getting the people to support the war and fight the war would be a lot more challenging. After all, would you fight for someone you don't even know, telling you it's for the best?
I'm not telling the disappearance of religion would end all war, as their will always be personal conflict, and conflicting ideals and perceptions of the world. What I am saying is that without religion, wars would be less grand, probably, and be a lot less lethal.
Still, my anti-theist view is directed at organised religion. Religion wi th a powerstructure, a hierarchy. I have nothing to do, nor wish to have anything to do with people who believe 'something'.
Mr U i think i underdstand your point Homo , its all about how can i create a real reasons can make my army give his life for it ?
its realy hard indeed , specialy without religions , and we can see a clear case in pre.Bush , he make the american youth go to hill ( Iraq ) just to fight terrorism ( Islam ) , and when he fight islam he also achieve many other targets , like petrolium and many other things about the new american empire ...
how could he make all those youth fight and give them lifes for something else but religions ?? and in the same time he have so many things out of religions ...
i just cant understand how they belive such a lies about islam and terrosim ? and how they killing all those innocents in the name of god , and pre.Bush ?!!!
there will be a day that religions will be the reason to stop wars , but with a great leaders that telling the truth to there people , and want peace to the world , not wanting petrolium , fortuns , water , lands and brains .... I can't remember where I saw it, maybe it was you homouniversalis, but if you think the bible is scary, try taking a glance at an excerpt from the Koran. I have read a great many excerpts from the Quran, and I don't find it any more 'scary' than the Bible. Both religions have it in them to, in a democracy, bend society to it's will.
Both the Bible and the Quran are very disrespectful to those who follow them, except the Quran is a bit less well written (I believe), and is more inconsistent than the (also quite inconsistent) Bible. Still, followers of the Bible have openly accepted and embraced the law, and they do not pursue to kill and execute those who they do not like. The follows of the Quran have not done this 'massively'. They have lacked a period of 'enlightenment', a renaissance, and I believe that this is a reason why the Islam should not gain political power, since it goes directly into our core beliefs of what we value and think of as important.
Do I hate muslims? No. Because I know muslims who feel the same way towards the Quran as 'christians' to the bible. It's simply a sociological switch that has to be made. Mosques need to be made more transparant, and more open to the public if the Islam is to be properly integrated into society. Until that day, paranoia will endure.
Mr U Thats actually a good point HU, maybe the reason why Muslims appear threatening is simply because we dont know anything about them. Excellent point HU, I've never thought about it that way. Maybe all there's a period that every religion has had "enlightenment" as you call it, and Islam has not had it. Very interesting points To the world as a whole I mean.
Just curious what you guys think on the subject.
On one hand you can say religon has helped those in tough times, and gave them hope for a better future. On the other you have the crusades, and the holocost. For every Ghandi, or Mother Teresa you have a Jerry Falwell, Hitler or some Muslim extremist.
edit: So you know, I dont just mean christianity or Islam but all religons. I can direct you to this thread for more on the (very interesting) subject:
http://www.matrixmania.com/showthread.php?t=11728 And I will go one further and merge the two.
-Another successful merger brought to you by UT-
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Monkeysphere - The Man over God
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