Ken Bigley

Those fuckers may have killed Ken....

http://newsbox.msn.co.uk/article.aspx?as=article&f=uk_-_olgbtopnews&t=11881&id=232148&d=20041008&do=http://newsbox.msn.co.uk&i=http://newsbox.msn.co.uk/mediaexportlive&ks=0&mc=5&lc=en&ae=windows-1252

I really feel for Ken Bigley's family. They have spent the last few weeks trying to get him released and now he's been torn away from them.

They have been incredibly brave and determined and its just a shame that the determination and hard work that they put it in has been fruitless, and, worse still, that they have lost a sibling who they obviously loved.

This will only continue until we get the heck outta there. We need to leave and leave fast before more of this happens. We aren't doing them much good right now.

Do they really think that killing innocent men and women is helping their cause, its causing more hatred towards them and our idiot political leaders won't back down.
I really feel for the family of Ken Bigley and I really hope these disgusting murders are stopped.

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Kenneth Bigley escaped briefly from his captors shortly before they beheaded him in Iraq, insurgent sources have said.

On Saturday they said Bigley managed to get away for about half an hour with the help of one of his captors before he was caught in farmland near the town of Latifiya, southwest of Baghdad.

Bigley was beheaded in Latifiya soon after his recapture on Thursday afternoon, one source said, adding: "He never made it to the main street."

I am sorry to hear about the death of Ken Bigley. I really hope all those slaughterings are going to stop some day.

Well, Ken Bigley has been killed... He escaped for half an hour.... The SAS are going in to kill the fuckers responsible for his death. Tony Blair is a twat with big ears (but thats obvious).. The bastard said he had negotiated with the kidnappers but he hadn't... I think its really tight that this is happening... I think its time Iraq were wiped out.. Their a problem we don't need.

I disagree, Iraq should not be wiped out, the majority of people there are normal people trying to go about their normal day-to-day lives. It is only the vigilantes like these terrorists that need to be killed, in my opinion they have no right to life, I don't care what their cause is.

If we save innocent people, they seem to go against us aswell..... Some are innocent, yes... But helping them is just destroying us.

Need to be killed? What about justice? Do they not deserve a fair trial before an independent court, so it may be decided that everyone knows for sure whom murdered whom.

"Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise
cannot see all ends."

Or, if you prefer Catholic theology: "Judge not, lest ye be judged."

Who are you to decide who deserves to die, N-2. Perhaps the Iraqi children who lost their parents in any of the wars will think the opposite of your statement. Because we have the power to end life means we should be even more viligant at using that power.

And, if that doesn't give you a two-cent loan, how about genocide being against the geneva convention? Bomb Iraq and I'll sue you.

Mr U

I think you'll find the vast majority of Iraqis are innocent N2, I know this must be a particularly sore spot because of your nationality, but like HU said, justice needs to be served and if you went out and slaughtered the entire nation what would that make you? It would make you worse than Hitler, worse than Stalin, it would make you a murderer and that alone is enough.
We all feel the pain of losing so many innocent lives to terrorism. America feels it from 911, as well as incidents like this one, hell even Australia has felt it though the Bali Bombings, most of the world has felt the pain of terrorism and thats why we're trying to stop it. But murdering an entire nation isn't the answer here.

I agree with what your saying Eon. I just am not happy seeing an innocent person from Britian that has done nothing wrong at all to anyone get killed before peoples eyes, and for what cause? A few woman held captive "apparently" by the British.. Which seems to be incorrect. I think this whole scenario is pointless and childish to be honest. Maybe we should leave them be.. Then if they decide that that isn't enough, then they can go to war with us and get their butts kicked badly.... If thats what they want. But killing people isn't solving anything, its either Tony Blair being a tight bastard or they are wrongly assuming things...

Ok then, lets come at this from a different end. Think back to the troubles in northern Ireland a few years ago. They killed far more completely innocent British people, who had no involvement what soever with the political/religious issues that were taking place. British soldiers also lost their lives.

If we are to apply your 'kill all the twats' logic to that situation then what? The situation is effectively the same, terrorists killing people who are wanting to get on with their lives, playing judge, jury and executioner to make a political or religious point. Peace has now started to take effect and the situation has stabilised, because people talked. It did take 25 years though.

Genocide is never an answer to terrorism. If we turned Iraq into the worlds largest parking lot then all that would happen is Iran, Jordan, Syria and all the other Islamic states in the area, including those who have worked as our allies for years, would declare Jihad on the west and world war 3 would inevitably commence.

it will take time for the new government of Iraq to be trusted, and also the soldiers that are supporting them. They have been under a very strict regime for a long time and the change will not happen over night. At the end of the day the British and Americans over there need to earn the trust of the Iraqi public, and rampant bombing campaigns wouldn't do that. The new regime must do the same, which again may take time. This is the only way for stability in Iraq to be achieved in my opinion. If we want to see Iraq enter the world of the democratic nation we need to be aware that the stability may well take a lot of time, money and, quite possibly, blood

INNOCENT? Ha! If there is any word that has been more abused in the English language, or any language I at this moment possess, than it is that 'innocent' little word.
//
Innocent:

Definition:

1. [n] a person who lacks knowledge of evil
2. [adj] (archaic) used of things; lacking sense or awareness; "ignorant hope"; "fine innocent weather"
3. [adj] lacking intent or capacity to injure; "an innocent prank"
4. [adj] free from evil or guilt; "an innocent child"; "the principle that one is innocent until proved guilty"
5. [adj] lacking in sophistication or worldliness; "a child's innocent stare"; "his ingenuous explanation that he would not have burned the church if he had not thought the bishop was in it"
6. [adj] free from sin
//

Ken Bigley was not innocent. No foreigner in Iraq is innocent. Every business man there is trying to make money over the graves of others. I do not call that innocent. I do not, and will never condone murder, but calling anyone innocent, but the unborn is ignorance.

Further, Genocide is and never will be an option. 'Nuff said.

Mr U

Ken Bigley was a normal person that wanted to carry on living his normal life... So what if he was a business man... Who cares? He didn't deserve to die.. At all. Enough said.

He didn't deserve to die..

Did you see me make that statement? No, I didn't. I am pro-life and a pacifist. As always you fail to recognise the hypocrisy behind your words. It was Winston Churchill who massacred many in Iraq, and now they are finally bringing you to justice.

Do I agree with the killings? No. Did you have it coming? Yes.

Also, you failed to respond no my statement that Ken Bigley was not innocent. Ergo, you completely ignored my post, and made a closting statement that was, in my view, aimed at trolling a negative response, but also succeeded at making a complete historical ignoranous out of yourself.

Ken Bigley was a normal person that wanted to carry on living his normal life...

A normal person from Brittain is not in Iraq. If you want, I can show you statistics that the average British person lives in, well, not Iraq. Do you have any facts to support whether or not he wants to carry on a normal life?

Sure, it's nice to defend the guy, but you know nothing about him. Making some statements that will turn him into a hero may be nice when speaking to fellow country-mates who feel just the same way, but it won't help against a person like me.

So what if he was a business man... Who cares?

You made the claim that he was innocent. I intented to disprove that fact. If you are trying to disprove my evidence, do so by facts, as this is no way to have a debate. I understand that you may be emotional, but frankly, so was Ken when he got beheaded. See where it got him.

Again, now in bold, just in case if this is the only line you read; I am a pacifist and I do not condone murder.

Mr U

Try looking at the link for your proof...

I wasn't saying you were for murdering.. This thread isn't about you, its about Ken. Yes, I do feel for him because its unfair. No, I didn't know much about him.. But that doesn't stop me from caring. He was a fellow Britian. You may have a different outlook on this too me because your not british. I'm not at all trying to make any negative posts to anyone.. But I think its pretty tight that he was killed. Maybe I should keep this thread for people who care only.. And keep people like you out. You don't give a shit about Ken, and you don't have to... But what if you were British and it was one of your people... Would you be talking like you are now? Theres nothing wrong with caring at all. But as this is now becoming a pointless arguement which I was actually hoping for a discussion... Now, for anyone that wants to talk about Ken, then post.. If not, then don't post.

Hey N-2. I'm sorry about what happened to Ken. I mean I feel sad for anyone that is killed on purpose for no reasons. Especially by those muslins... And I understand how you feel. Alot of my own relatives were sent to that war since most of my family members are military. So it is hard for me to hear when they died. Because I have family members from all over the world in Britian, America, Japan, and some other places like that. And I say that Ken shouldn't have died. And those bastards that killed him should pay with the British people killing them back for what they have done.

I concur. Everyone not agreeing with ^^ should not post. You hear me, you pacifists, anti-haters out there? I will hunt you down and delete your post.

There... Did that make you happy?

Try looking at the link for your proof...

Please. I was asking for evidence that Bigley was innocent. You have not delivered any proof, nor is there proof of his innocence in his article.

But as this is now becoming a pointless arguement which I was actually hoping for a discussion...

What discussion are you exactly trying to start? Are you hoping to encourage other members to offer you condoleances? I'd rather give mine to DonDaddy, for seeing and having to kill people in the field.

British? DPD made an argument about Hatriotism somewhere on MM. THANK YOU! Bigley got squeesed out of his mother 62 years in Great Brittain. Is that the only reason why you should feel more sympathy than me? You have no idea what I or what I do not feel for the death of Ken Bigley. Even if I did not feel completely sympathetic, it's probably because I have invested it in the limbless children of Iraq thanks to coalition 'precision' bombings.

"Tony Blair is lying, he is lying when he said he's negotiated. He has not negotiated. My life is cheap. He doesn't care about me."

Again, does that sound innocent to you? No, that sounds manipulative. That's not what you say against a prime minister knowing he won't negotiate with terrorists. It's the policy of the free western world not to negotiate with terrorists. It handles out of the principle that one life is worth sacrificing to save the whole, and to generally discourage terrorism.

Is that the discussion you want? Please, than bring on a thread with more than a vague one-liner and a link to some MSNBC, or whatever that news agency calls themselves these days, article.

Mr U

I agree.. I would definetly like to see some revenge.. But like HU said (and I did read all of your posts HU) it would only make things worse.. Of course I don't want things to get worse then what they already are.. But at least the SAS are going in to Iraq to kill those responsible... :)

Murdering millions of innocent sounds to me a rather disproportional response to the murder of one Briton. Of course his death was tragic, but that wasn't because he was born in Britain. It was because he was innocent - and to clarify, when people use the term "innocent" when referring to war situations they are talking about somone not taking part in the war and therefore not posing a threat - therefore killing an innocent is murder, and not conventional warlike behaviour.

I actually think that the pain people feel for people of their nationaity - despite not knowing them - is a beautiful thing, but that pain shouldn't make you lose sight of the fact that there are humans on the other side too.

Blaming the Iraqi people for the terrorism isn't really fair. They're not the ones that created it. If anyone is to blame for the terrorism, it is you British as members of the coalition that toppled Saddam. Whether or not you agreed to the war on Iraq is irrelevant. The fact is, you are responsible for the state Iraq is in now, and you have an obligation to fix it. You can't just leave the Iraqis for dead just because the situation you created for yourselves isn't to your liking... it's your mess, you've got to stay and clean it up. No choice but to take the heat.
I do support the plan to bring the killers to justice though. It's just important that the main reasoning here be preventing more loss of innocent life rather than revenge, because in these sort of situations sometimes the two reasoning can contradict...

Well its obvious that this is one situation that isn't going to drop.. If we leave Iraq alone, we'll get more suicide bombers and stuff come in... If we continue to help them, we'll just get hurt. I don't blame Iraq itself, I just hate the people that killed Ken. I don't want to see more innocent people get hurt at all from Britian... It would be better if Tony Blair wasn't our president.. But I hope that the Iraqs don't continue to attack even if we back off... Saddam Hussain is a terrorist that is hated throughout Britian.. Now that we have him, I don't think we'll be so eager to let him go... If we let him go, this will continue and Iraq will just come off worse... I never wanted a war... I woke up on day and there was a war going on... I am a member of Britian, but I didn't get a say in all this. But it was Saddam who hated the Americans... Also Bin Laden hated America. So we British aren't all to blame.. We helped the Americans (as allies) hunting down Saddam that was assumed a terrible threat by President George Bush.... So if we British back off and they STILL come after us even after that, then its not just Britian they'll be going for.

Ah, screw this. I don't mind relaying a point three times in a discussion, and I'm always ready for a long and windy debate. What I am not ready for, however, is having my post completely ignored while you hammer on the same point.

FYM, we know each other way too well when it comes to this. I rather give my own life than take that of another, and I understand that governments disagree with that (noble?) ideal.

Mr U