Changing the pledge

The seeds of idiocy planted once again.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS...d.ap/index.html

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Im tired of this shit even being an issue at all. You got a problem with saying something thats been part of the pledge of alliegence for around 50years then s what. Dont say that part, sit your happy ass back down in the seat and don t say that part of the pledge.

Saying the pledge is completely optional in schools, you dont get suspended, expelled, or even detetion. So if the parents in this atheist movement dont want their kids saying the pledge, they should just tell them to not say it. Otherwise you can always leave the fucking country if you have such a problem with part of what it means to be an american.


Every president since the first has been Christian along with the majority of every other member of this goverment. Face it for the moment religon is at least on some level in out goverment whether people like it or not.

Personally I think the gov's attitude toward this athiest movement right now is "fuck em" since the fist ammendment is free speech you have the right to say "Under God" in the pledeg or not. These morons have panties up in a bunch for no reason.

What?...

The link does not work, and I'm having difficulty decyphering what this is about...

Mr U

I think I have some sort of idea... In America at school they have this pledge they all say which is to do with patriotism and has a reference to God in it, which apparantely the atheists don't like.
I would love to learn of this in more detail but from what I understand the pledge is some sort of symbolic thing, even if you're not forced to say it, and I think it's very reasonable for the atheists to have their own kind of pledge. You have to remember, atheists not only don't believe in God, but they believe he doesn't exist. This is an insult to their faith.
Am I completely off here?

Well, depends on how atheistic you are. I'm an athiest, and i really don't have a problem with saying it, partially because I've been saying it all my life. I think it shouldn't have been added in the first place. It was a stuipd idea and it should be removed. As for what Helios said:
Otherwise you can always leave the fucking country if you have such a problem with part of what it means to be an american.

I'm an american and I'm not religious. Religion has nothing to do with being an American.

I'm an american and I'm not religious. Religion has nothing to do with being an American.

Thats not even the point.. When the pledge starts in the morning nobody comes into the classroom holding an assult rifle forcing everyone to say the pledge. Even the teachers will not 'force you to say it, its completely voluntary. So my point is if you dont like saying the pledge simply dont say it. Or if you shoose to dont say God when it comes to that part.

I think it shouldn't have been added in the first place. It was a stuipd idea and it should be removed.

The God part was added back in the early 20th century before ww1 I think. It wasnt a "stupid" idea back then, and changing something after its been in there over 50 years just seems ridiculous. Especially when its something you dont have to do.

Awwwww, not this again!

The pledge is just a symbol of America. Just like the athem. People want to change the athem because it sings about a battle, and not the actual country.

Like Helios said, you don't have to say it. I've seen and heard kids say it like this:

I pledge allegiance,
To the flag,
And the United States of America
To the Republic,
For which it stands,
One nation,
Under God,
Indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

That's the normal way; here's the edited by kids around me,

I pledge allegiance,
To the flag,
And the United States of America
To the Republic,
For which it stands,
One nation,
United together
Indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

And that's it. Everyone's happy. Maybe one day it'll be changed, but right now, the general population is just fine with it. It's like the driving age thing; they've been trying to change it for years and years.

Yeah I know what you're feeling here Helios. Basically though almost every pledge or anthem will include a technicality that becomes out of place with time. Be it references to a Republic, a God, some disgraced ex-hero...the thing is, it was good in its time.
My pledges weren't exactly voluntary back in school, but it's more for the patrioticism than anything (it also kinda helped that it was in a language we didn't really know lol) so these really should be taken with a pinch of salt.
Now the mandatory prayers and hymms with references to God and Jesus in front of a mixed school every monday back when I was in Junior College; that I couldn't stand. :p

I'm suprised public schools allow this at all. After all, there should be freedom of religion, and I can imagine quite some Islamic parents to be quite pissed off at the reference God (Which, no, does not refer to a deity, but to a specific deity, Allah is not a god, Allah is Allah).

The mere fact that this is still in a public school system is, I believe, an outrage. I can imagine it being in catholic schools, but in public schools?

A feast of recognition their, Mac. I was forced to say a prayer ever darn morning as well to the catholic 'God'. I should sue them for child abuse :p.

Mr U

I don't think the Muslims would have a problem with it since "Allah" is just "God" in Arabic, just like "Hashem" is hebrew for God. It's the same guy.
What many of you are saying about the pledge not being mandatory is beside the point I think, since this its singnificance, as I said, is obviously symbolic. No atheist would get harmed by saying this pledge, but it's not about the sounds coming out of their mouths - it's about the representation and the definition of being American, and I think there is a basis for complaining against the way things are today. It's leaving them out of the loop.

I'm suprised public schools allow this at all. After all, there should be freedom of religion, and I can imagine quite some Islamic parents to be quite pissed off at the reference God (Which, no, does not refer to a deity, but to a specific deity, Allah is not a god, Allah is Allah).


Just because there is one mentioning of the word God does not make the pledge a religous symbol. Its just in there because at the time the majority of america was christian (more so than today) it was just thrown in there. Had the majority of america been another religous sect, it would have been different.

As well the mentioning of God once in the pledge does not strip anyone of their religous freedom. I may have expected this response if people were being forced to say it, but they are not. So there is no great unjustice at hand if they choose to say the pledge of alegiance of the country they happen to live in. Yeah I know its insanity.. :rolleyes:

Ah, actually HU its a catholic school, (it's created by a catholic committee) but by and large its a governmental institution, and incorporates people of all religions. The catholic thing is more a name. I don't really have problems with the word God, like FYM said, but the references were clearly Western, and the hymms too much. Jesus can never be interpreted as cross-cultural!
Also, my secondary school before that was catholic based (under the John Baptist De LaSalle line of schools - I'm not sure if anyone of you guys know any of them), but it was very different. It had a chapel yes, but everything religiously western was confined within, away from those who didn't practice it. We had mandatory religion class, but these were solely to explore all religions, and broadened my eyes considerably to theology and its history world-wide. Morning prayers were implemented on Mondays too, but simple, pure ones like St Francis's prayer of (I can't remember): along the lines of 'Give me the strength to be calm when there is chaos, forgiving when there is anger', and more. Very spiritually enlightened. I miss that system.

Agnosticism and Atheism are religions. I am free to believe that there is nothing out there, unless it can be proven to be out there. I do not believe a public school, a school that aims at all students should have a pledge that includes a deity.

Even if God is the western word for Allah, many muslims believe that Allah is the only true word for their 'God', and I believe we should respect that. I am, however, willing to accept our difference in opinion, unlike others:

The seeds of idiocy planted once again.

I'm unsure of what your problem with this is, but I do not intend to say anything I disagree with. If it is found normal for people to hold a pledge, at least in a public school, I believe this should not include God. Buddhists, for example, do not believe in God, and the mention of God, and not God removes a lot of other religions as well, even more when one considers some believe in godesses.

In any case, I can imagine catholic believes being spread in a catholic school, but certainly not in a public school. Public schools should, like a government, be uninvolved in religious politics.

Mr U

I thought the "Under God" part was added a little later, after WWII, but I could be mistaken. I don't think the pledge should be said in schools every day, just a personal thing. If kids want to say the pledge by themselves, let them do that on their own time. Regardless of religious beliefs, most of, if not the entire class stands and says the pledge starting in elementary school. At such a young and impressionable age, this is being engrained into you when you're not even at the point where your mind is able to grasp religion and such. And when you're six years old, to be the only one in a class of 30 or so not standing, can lead to a kid being exiled by his peers at a young age, blah blah blah, psychological damage is possible, yada yada...As for being American, all most of us in the US did was come out of our mother within the USA's borders. Down with hatriotism.

Also, my secondary school before that was catholic based (under the John Baptist De LaSalle line of schools - I'm not sure if anyone of you guys know any of them)

My cousin in Chicago goes to a De Lasalle school. Nifty!

As for this whole pledge business... Bah. This whole 'politically correct' thing gets on my nerves.

As for being American, all most of us in the US did was come out of our mother within the USA's borders. Down with hatriotism.


I second that, and rally for some beer! Well, in my opinion, words mean nothing, for it doesn't change what you believe and or place faith in. I try to remain semi-neutralic to most things, as to get a better undestanding to each side, but sometimes, in this instance, the lines are blurred and my opinions, or advice, may or may not help, due to the fact that I am unaware as to whether or not if this thread is about Religion, or about Polotics. I mean, Helios said, "If it bugs them that much, then they should not say it."

Then it went off into Religion, and politics, and then about being American. Somewhere in this thread, it went off topic, and went all insane and crazy, like me. Well, I hope this gets resolved, puts back on course, and is done peacefully without violence, or antagonistical action.

Your friend, Haxxor

I think the simplest solution would be to make two official versions, one as it is today and one like Kara said or similar.
Come to think of it, DPD is right - this whole pledge thing is kinda smelly. These kids are too young to be saying these things anyway.
As for the Hashem-Allah-God thing, probably not too much arguing since this I don't think it's that relevant, but the Jewish religion places A LOT of emphasis on the Hebrew language, and if we don't mind saying God because we realise it's the same word translated then logic says that the Muslims wouldn't either. I'm pretty sure that as with us, their name for God only matters when talking to him, not about him.
To come back to my first point - what's stopping people from making the changes that would make everybody happy?

To come back to my first point - what's stopping people from making the changes that would make everybody happy?

Because its not really in the hands of the "people" to change them, it happens to be in the hands of the Supreme courts. :\

I think the simplest solution would be to make two official versions, one as it is today and one like Kara said or similar.

I completey disagree with making two 'official' versions. Only one should be official the other a sort of alternative. Making 2 versions degrades the whole the thing and people might as well not say it.

Saying you disagree doesn't really get us anywhere. WHY do you disagree? How does it "degrade the whole thing?"

Do any international members have/had to pledge allegiance to their flag every day in school?

Do any international members have/had to pledge allegiance to their flag every day in school?

no.

It doesn't make sense to me anyway. Could anyone please explain to me why you have to pledge allegiance to a flag? patriotism or why?

Do any international members have/had to pledge allegiance to their flag every day in school?

no.

In the Olympic Games of Sydney, no one wanted to carry the Dutch flag. We, the dutch, consider patriotism something 'childish', a patriotic remark something only a 'redneck' or 'rube' would say.

I guess that speaks a lot about the image we have of Americans, huh ;).

Mr U

FYM...to answer the question: do we need to change it? Remember; almost all symbols of patrioticism and allegiance turn obsolete with time. Yet if we change them according to time, where would the allegiance be; the symbolism? In fact, the more out of place a once-good symbol is now, the more recognised it is. The swastika, the caduceaus....the thing is, such things become more symbols of culture and history than any truly practical item. I see no need to change that for apparently minor conveniences.
Interesting remark about the Dutch, HU. My teacher's that kinda guy too, and his thinking fascinates me. It's practical, and far from stubborn. Not something that would start a war, like so many tribal customs do.

no.

It doesn't make sense to me anyway. Could anyone please explain to me why you have to pledge allegiance to a flag? patriotism or why?

Because the flag is a symbol of the country and everything it stands for, so in essence you're pledging allegiance to all that good stuff? If not... Then... Could it be... Education?

Thanks to those who responded, as your answers back up my view of not seeing a real reason as to WHY we even have to hear the pledge every single day at an age when we're too young to comprehend the nation we live in and it's actions. Sure, the kids don't have to say it, but ask anyone who sat and listened to it being said in school every day for 13 years, and they damn sure CAN say it word for word and will be able to for the rest of their life.

Well why didn't ya say so...there's a very solid reason behind what you mentioned; reciting the pledge from a young age and on up till we know the words, if not the spirit of it all.
Indoctrination.
It's not like any country's free from it. Religion uses indoctrination. Nationalism arises from indoctrination. Our very values and behavior are indoctrinated into us. We have so many people who love the U.S. to the death in the face of all forms of criticism...I have a very strong inclination to feel that it's due in no small part to the little things like a recited pledge.