French head-scarf ban

I thought I'd posted on this before, but I couldn't find the thread here...
Anyway, as of today (or possibly yesterday), students and teachers are not allowed to wear any religious items, like the headscarves for Muslim women and headcoverings for Jewish men. I'm just surprised this doesn't cause a worldwide outrage. There is no chance in hell that I would accept a law like that. It's undemocratic. It violates the freedom of religion. It's insane, that's what it is.
People have gotten so carried away with being "liberal" and fighting religious extremism that they've failed to notice the anti-religious extremism. I'm not sure about the crosses (which are also forbidden from wearing in schools), but the headcoverings for Jews and Muslims must be worn by religious law. I've never fully understood the claim in favour for the ban but it's something to do with not imposing religion on the secular French schoolgoers. Yeah, by imposing secularity! Is this insane or is this not insane? France is going down a dangerous road...

hummm sorry to say this. but i agree with franch on this one
i am for the banning of headscarves for Muslim women

they don't live in the middle east anymore. and extremist shoudn't be like that in a other country then in the country it is used by everyone

hope i didn't make you angry now freeyourmind

but thats just the way i think about it

I'm not angry. I just think it's insane. Why do head-scarves constitute extremism? These women choose to wear them! Extremism is telling people what they can or can't do to themselves in the name of religion. It's like telling Christians that they can't go to church or something. You can't outlaw religion just becuase you don't believe in it. Freedom of religion is a vital part of democracy.

most are forced to wear those stupid blankets around there head
whats so bad about showing your hair. do they think they all got flee's or something ?

most woman that wear headscarves are mostly forced or raised with it

i think just allow them to wear it if they like it. when they don't whant it. don't force them to wear it !!!

Muslim headscarves, Sikh turbans, Jewish skullcaps and large Christian crosses which are among the visible religious symbols that will be prohibited do not pose a threat to public health, order or morals, they have no effect on the fundamental rights and freedoms of other students, and they do not undermine a school’s educational function. Therefore, I think the headscarf ban in wrong...

Some in France have used the headscarf issue as a pretext for voicing anti-immigrant and of course also anti-Muslim sentiments. Some arguments appear to be based on the premise that all Muslims want to oppress women which is not true in my opinion, or that women and girls who choose to veil do not understand women’s rights.

In my high-school, we weren't allowed to wear hats. We weren't allowed to wear head-scarfs, and we weren't allowed to wear those round jewish thingies :p. Now, I'm very liberal, and very much for a constitution that supports religious beliefs, even though I myself am anti-religious.

In our school they believe that people should not wear hats and stuff out of respect for the teachers, you don't wear hats in class because of respect for the teacher. In this case, I have no problem with the restrictions they try to put down, because it is not a restriction intented on restriction others on religion, but rather just trying to make sure people don't start wearing silly caps. To make sure there is no discrimination, all head-cloths were banned. Logically.

France. Now, personally, in my view of religion, I could not agree more, and I agree that religion should be banned all together. However, in a liberal view, I believe we should allow people to believe as they want to believe (after all, maybe we are wrong and God does exist!).

Now, if they are basing the ban of headscarfs on religious aspects, but I do believe there is another side to the story (at least for headscarfs for female muslims), as their face is covered up for a large portion. I'm not allowed to wear a clown's mask into a bank either, even though I may have a religion that forces me to follow it.

When does the right to express your religion end, and the rest of society continue?

Mr U

In Norway the muslims are allowed to youse the head scarf, but the other students are not allowed to have things on their head! Maybe I have started my own religion, lets say it is called " John`s friends ", a religion where everybody has to wear a baseball cap.... it is just as stupid as the head scarf thing!!!!!!!

most are forced to wear those stupid blankets around there head
whats so bad about showing your hair. do they think they all got flee's or something ?

most woman that wear headscarves are mostly forced or raised with it

i think just allow them to wear it if they like it. when they don't whant it. don't force them to wear it !!!

Watch it, Freddy. Those 'stupid blankets' are an expression of their religion.

Sorry to go against the flow but the head scarf isn't, I amled to believe, actually a religious requirement of Muslim women, it is a purely cultural garment, much the same as wearing a football shirt when visiting Old Trafford for instance. This therefore makes it different from sikh turbans or jewish skull caps

I agree that the headscarf has become synonymous with muslim women, but i believe that, as long as the rule is applied to all non-religion required cultural clothing, eg crosses etc then the french government is within its rights to introduce these laws.

I feel this is another case of when in Rome. I am not racist and if this comes across this way I'm sorry, but alot of people move to places like western europe seeking the cultural affluence and freedoms these places offer, wihout wanting to be a part of them or contribute to them. Anyone who comes to my country for instance, and has something to offer and endeavours to make the country a better place to be is more than welcome. Its the minority who come and then expect the rest of society to conform to and support them, whilst they seek to destroy the culture they've joined who both confuse me and fustrate me

Undemocratic maybe, but I never thought France was all that "democratic" anyways.

I remember hearing about ths a while back though...

Watch it, Freddy. Those 'stupid blankets' are an expression of their religion.


oh oke. i just find them stupid. whats so bad about showing your hair

Well, Freddy, and Swampy, I can say that I know that married Jewish women must, by religion, wear headscarves too, so I'm assuming that Muslim women are doing so for the same reason as the Jews - modesty. I have trouble seeing the logic behind that too, but it's still a religious law and it is still widely observed.
Of course, the strictness of observing Jewish law varies between sect to sect, so that some women don't wear these headscarves at all. So again, I am assuming (perhaps falsely but there's a lot of logic behind my reasoning I think ;) ) that the case is the same with the Muslims. I'm thinking that the fact that some Muslims don't observe this head-scarf thing's led people to think that it's not a religious requirement but just, like Swampy said, a cultural garment. I can't back this up right now but I'm rather sure of this, if you still think I'm wrong I'll try and find some proof...
Anyway, even if it is restrictions on culture then I don't think it's democratic. It's like telling a black person to be ashamed of being black. To paint himself white as it were. I think that in a democracy you should be allowed to do anything you want as long as you don't harm anyone. Besides, even if what they're doing to Muslims is justified, what they're doing to Jews and Sikhs is beyond any question outrageous and smells of dangerous regimes.
most woman that wear headscarves are mostly forced or raised with it

i think just allow them to wear it if they like it. when they don't whant it. don't force them to wear it !!!
This is an assumtion too many people make. You don't know how many women resent wearing their headscarves and how many are so passionate about their religion that they're willing to put something on their heads. Believe me, I do many much more difficult things as an observant Jew. I know how much I'd resent people saying that I'm opressed.

HU, as I said before the reasoning for the headscarf ban is beyond me. It's not to do with security though. I remember the official statement saying something like "the citizens of France must realise that France's future lies in secularity". Did I mention this was insane?

I know that, FYM, and that was the point I was trying to get across. I am pro the banning of head-scarfs, but not for the reasons they said they banned it for. My banning is more democratic :).

According to the Islam women have to make sure they are not objects of lust to men. This can be interpreted as wearing headscarfs to cover up the traits that make a woman attractive. This, however, is open to interpretation, and in essence, it is possible to be islamic without wearing a headscarf, but it is not possible to live in an islamic country without a headscarf. The interpretation of the Kuran is cultural, so in esssence the wearing of a hs is cultural and not religious.

I can, however, understand, just a bit, the idea behind the French government. They have lived under Christendom for many centuries, and the multitude of their civilians are christian. I think they want to preserve thier culture.

Thinking about it, I think we have used the wrong therms. In fact, considering most of France's cilivians are Christian, the democratic thing would be to ban headscarfs. It's just not the moral thing to do :).

Mr U

Could you elaborate on the point of the hs being cultural and not religious? I am befuddled by your reasoning.
ALL religions are up to interpretation. There are Jews that are not circumcised. Does this mean that circumcision is a "cultural interpretation" and therefore it makes sense for a country to prohibit circumcision? For every religion there are varying levels of strictness of observation, but still, all of the laws practised by the strictest sects are considered acceptable and untouchable by freedom of religion. I'm hard pressed thinking of a proper example here, but the point here is that the French are telling their religious citizens "we do not accept this religious rule of yours". By freedom of religion, citizens are free to practise whatever religion they want, without intervention by the state.

There's more to democracy than the rule of the majority. There is also what's called minority rights. A true democracy cannot, for instance, decide that all of its citizens with black skin must be enslaved. Also there are elementary laws (not sure if these are the right words) - ideals that the state was founded on and that a majority vote cannot negate, and if I am not much mistaken, one of France's elementary laws was the freedom of religion.

I don't know why they wear headscarves. I've never asked anyone wearing a head scarf, "why do you do it?", but would be interested in the response. I don't know where I stand on this issue, because I don't know much about the French government and I don't know how deeply the beliefs of these women go.

What I was trying to say was, that cultures often decide on how to interpret the bible or Kuran, at least in countries run by a religion. The heads of a religion than say how people should interpret the holy scripture.

And there, I believe, lies the problem. People use religion to enforce their own ideals by manipulating the bible (or Kuran), and if enough people follow them blindly, it is assumed to be the correct version. It is exactly the same with the Catholic church and their idols. It is stated, literally, in the bible that one is not allowed to create images of anything from heaven. However, as some people did it nonetheless, it gradually became the acceptable norm.

Is it a religious law to worship a crucifix? Absolutely not, as the opposite is stated in the bible. It is rather a cultural law, or so I believe, with it's foundation in the holy scripture.

See! Religion leads to lots of confusion... Give up your judaism, FYM... Give it up...:p

Mr U

Look, I don't think Christianity makes any sense either, but that's got absolutely nothing to do with it. If this ban doesn't violate the freedom of religion, then what the hell would?
I am not an expert on Islamic law. I don't know waht the source is in Islamic scripture of the commandment to wear a head-scarf, but I do know the reasoning - modesty. To put it in perspective, it would be sort of like telling secular women they can only arrive at public places in the nude. That is oppression.
I am thinking that you're leading your chrusade against Christianity instead of looking at this logically... no offense intended... I just can't believe how many people think this is okay. You won't find one religious person who'd say this was remotely acceptable. I dunno, maybe the problem lies in the misunderstanding of religion...

Oh, and Judaism leads to way less confusion than Christianity... or atheism :D muahaahah.

Not modesty... Allah just doesn't want his women to provoke lust in his men.

This all put aside, I think we should all be very carefully when blaming one of the oldest democracies in this world of oppressing it's people.

Mr U

Maybe modesty isn't the right word - I don't know if there exists a right word in English. But yes, it's got to do with not flaunting yourself and not making it more difficult for the men than it already is. Whether you agree with this reasoning or not is irrelevant. If a country claims to be a democracy, then it must accept every one of it's religion's rules and not intervene in its citizens' religious lifestyle! I might even have been able to understand the opposing argument if the reasoning for it made sense - if it was out to do anything useful. But I can't see anything good this will bring. What is the purpose for this law other than to upset the religious?

I don't think a country's grand history excuses it from anything. So what? America was one of the world's leading democracies and I believe, and so it seems do you, that it's deteriorated democratically in the past few years. I respect France for it's history, but I have no respect for the direction it's heading towards today. If I think a country is opressing its people then I'll say that I think it's opressing it's people. Sorry :p

Hmmm. I'm not sure where to start, but I can say truthfully that such religious symbols are very much a part and parcel of a large number of people. Just the people I know in my country gives me pause to think of such a move.
Now its not compulsary for the religion to have these - Muslim women in more secular countries can choose whether or not to wear them...but they cannot force either a total wearing rule or a ban. This isn't a school where earrings aren't allowed; its a country. There is alot of confusion, yes, but religion is also filled with certainties, some of which are exactly about how people can dress. This isn't something that can be changed this drastically no matter the community unless they choose so themselves; which is a very unlikely possibility in the near future when it comes to religious folk.

Well, the ban is in fact only in schools... the religious are allowed to wear all these things out of school, but I don't think that makes a difference. I think it's still just as wrong.
Give me an example of a religious certainty. Of something that all Christians or Muslims or Jews or whatever do. I can think of nothing.

Christians all believe Christ is the manifestation of God upon earth, and that only through worshipping him will they gain eternal life and learn the Truth.

I had no idea it was just in school, by the way, in that case, I fully understand. They are trying to reduce Islamic/Christian schools and are going for a more uniformity in their schools. Frankly, I support it :).

'Religion is poison'

Mr U

Actually, I do too. There was a hiatus in my country not long ago precisely about it but it turns out its no big deal religiously. The guy who made up the fuss was just trying to stir up trouble with our Muslim neighbours.
Anyway, what do you think is wrong exactly, only partial tolerance to religious inclinations or any tolerance?

Christians all believe Christ is the manifestation of God upon earth, and that only through worshipping him will they gain eternal life and learn the Truth.
That's very general. I meant a specific thing that they must do. Something that every person that ever claimed to be Christian has done in the name of Christianity.

It's not just schools. It's also public places or something like, I think. I don't understand your understanding. Uniformity in schools? How? If you mean that they want less segregation and that the Muslims and Christians won't learn in schools just for them then this will have the opposite effect... people that care about their religion would flee the public schools in their masses...

You know what? Forget the head-scarf. I'm not going to be arguing the case for the Muslims. I don't know it well enough. I can talk about the skullcaps. Those are a big deal religiously. Basically you shouldn't move around without your head covered. Come on. Imagine being told by the religious what to watch on TV, how to dress, what to eat, being forced to go to mass, being forced to fast. Every self-respecting liberal would be enraged I'd think. This is just the same for us on the other side. Maybe even worse. The problem with religious intolerance isn't the religion. It's the intolerance.

There are a couple of reasons for that ban as far as I understand them.

Equality between the students is probably the most important one. No exterior signs of difference that may cause problems between the kids themselves. It's meant to DISCOURAGE and lessen racism. Wearing a headscarf to school is like shouting "I'm a muslim". The no religion in public school has a long story in France and I for one support it with all my heart. You want a religious school? You send your kid to a private school, christian, coranic or jewish. They abound here so you do have that choice. Otherwise you adapt to the local customs and don't try to draw constantly attention to yourself. Nobody is angry at this law but the muslim. The jew here have absolutely not problem with it, the christians either, the buddhists either. I can only talk about the public school where my kids go and it has a big percentage of kids from elsewhere, portugeese, african, chinese, arabian. Only a couple of extremists did some demonstrations about it and their own muslim community distanced itself from them and was ok with it. The freaking mollah of Paris was ok with that law too. So what the fuck is this thread about?

By the way, if only married jewish woman need to wear a headscarf I don't see why it's upsetting if female jewish schoolkids and students that are obviously not yet married don't wear them at school?

The problem isn't with Jewish women. It's with Jewish men. I don't know how religious the French Jews are but none of the people of my sect would be willing to go to a school where kipas are banned.

I don't know about the Muslims, but the kipas, or "skullcaps" ARE meant to be shouting "I'm a Jew." I still can't understand how people can expect you to be ashamed of that.

Yes, the private schools are still open to the religious, but what this ban basically says is "we don't want religious people in our school". It's a huge kick in the nuts from the state, and I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how it doesn't violate the basic civil right of freedom of religion.

And I'm guessing the main reason the Jews aren't demonstrating is because the Jews are scared shitless, especially in today's France. And they probably should be.

I think you are wrong there FYM. It's about mutual respect. Here we have three rather intolerant religions with each other, muslims, jews and catholic. They all are or have been at some point in their past agressive religions of the sort that is persuaded to be the only true player in the playground, that have warred against each other in the name of religion and that still have a lot of political issues with each other. Just look at where YOU live and tell me that is'nt so. Look at the palestinians! Look at Jerusalem. It's not healthy mixing politics and religion in my opinion.

The school of the republic is a non religious school where ALL children and young adults, never matter their origins, religions or philosophical convictions learn how to live and work together. Wearing openly religious signs is just waving a red flag at the bull. You start with accepting one and then everybody wants it. The thing here is to lessen the differences, including the visible ones between the kids, not reinforce them.

The non religious state school creates a social link that unites a liberty of conscience and of thought with life in society.

Liberty of conscience implies the respect of pluralism in beliefs and convictions FYM.

Liberty of thought is constructed by the formation of critical acumen and the gathering of analytic tools and behaviours which incite you to examinate for yourself and with an open and critic mind all systems of thought.

Non religious school is sort of a bet about peace and emancipation thanks to the gathering of all sorts of knowledge and especially the MUTUAL recognition of differences. And this non religious school teaches our kids to look beyond our differences toward a sharing of values. In theory, you learn how to live in a real democratic society: Refusal of violence, respect of children and general human rights and women rights in particular, to fight all racism and sexual discrimination and to fight communautarism. I suppose that this has to be hard to accept for you, as communautarism is something that is very much encouraged by your religion.

I think though that the demanding nature of social mixity is the very expression of our public school system. And that it's not an intolerant one whatever you may think of it. I live here. My kids go to this school. I think I'll trust my own eyes.

By the way I'd like you to reread your own post. Nice demonstration of religious paranoia there lol. No, the world and France are not out there to get you Jews lol, we are busy living our own lives...

Okay, I'll try to take this point by point.

I think you are wrong there FYM. It's about mutual respect. Here we have three rather intolerant religions with each other, muslims, jews and catholic. They all are or have been at some point in their past agressive religions of the sort that is persuaded to be the only true player in the playground, that have warred against each other in the name of religion and that still have a lot of political issues with each other. Just look at where YOU live and tell me that is'nt so. Look at the palestinians! Look at Jerusalem. It's not healthy mixing politics and religion in my opinion.
Okay. Mixing of religion and state is not a good idea. That wasn't what I was saying at all. But every democratic, non-religious country, has the duty to allow freedom of religion. I can't see as meaning anything besides allowing the religious to do their religious duties. Wearing the Jewish skullcap is not act of intolerance. It's an act of self-determination.
Wearing openly religious signs is just waving a red flag at the bull.
You notice you're likening the French public to a bull? Do you not think it possible of them to act with self-restraint even if they notice that someone is openly Jewish?
The thing here is to lessen the differences, including the visible ones between the kids, not reinforce them.
I brought before the example of blacks. Is the way to fight racism against them to paint them white, or to fight the actual root of racism?
Why lessen the differences? What's wrong with being different? I can't practise my Judaism because I'm different from you?
Liberty of conscience implies the respect of pluralism in beliefs and convictions FYM.

plu·ral·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (plr-lzm)
n.

a. A condition in which numerous distinct ethnic, religious, or cultural groups are present and tolerated within a society.
b. The belief that such a condition is desirable or socially beneficial.


Is this not my point exactly? Respect our religious duties. We do them for a reason.
Non religious school is sort of a bet about peace and emancipation thanks to the gathering of all sorts of knowledge and especially the MUTUAL recognition of differences
I don't understand. Are you "emancipating" me from my religion? Jews do respect the general French public's non-religiousness. We wish you all the best. Why does that mean we can't follow our religion by not being ashamed of our being Jewish? You're not making sense.
I suppose that this has to be hard to accept for you, as communautarism is something that is very much encouraged by your religion.
LMAO. Took me a while to find out what communautarism means, but I can finally respond.
While many Jewish communities choose to distance themselves from their country's general public, this is not a religious duty. Wearing a skullcap is, however, and it's not about distancing yourself - it's about expressing your commitement to your lord.
I think though that the demanding nature of social mixity is the very expression of our public school system. And that it's not an intolerant one whatever you may think of it. I live here. My kids go to this school. I think I'll trust my own eyes.
Yes, but your kids are not Jewish. I think it's a safe bet that they're not Muslim or Christian either. I'm sure they're not intolerant to you, but even from this distance I can tell that this law is not tolerant to my people. If I were French I'd be offended. As part of the human race I am offended.
By the way I'd like you to reread your own post. Nice demonstration of religious paranoia there lol. No, the world and France are not out there to get you Jews lol, we are busy living our own lives...
First of all, that was not the point I was trying to make. I was saying that the Jews, whether paranoid or not, barely ever take to the street in protest, because there's always a feeling they're kind of skating on thin ice. I say this from my personal experience, in fucking Australia. The fact that the Jews aren't as noisy as the Muslims doesn't necessarily mean they aren't hurt by this decision.

Second of all, I think considering history Jews would do well to be cautious. Racism is unpredictable, and Jews have always been in an awkward situation. When religious intolerance goes unchecked, which I believe is what's happened in France, then it could spiral out of control. I hope as you do that I'm wrong, but the fact is that Antisemitism is on the rise, with France leading by a long way. I just don't think it's a coincidence. I think there's a lack of relgious understanding, and a hell of a lack of caution.

And no, it's not Nazi Germany. But neither was Germany four years before Hitler. Anything could happen, anywhere, if proper precautions are not taken.

You notice you're likening the French public to a bull? Do you not think it possible of them to act with self-restraint even if they notice that someone is openly Jewish?

Actually, no I don't. I was talking about the other religious communities who would ask themselves why can this jewish kid wear his kippa and my Aïcha can't wear her headscarf? And then this buddhist father might say, hey, why can my kid not come to school wearing this orange monk tunic and with all his hair shaved off? and by the way, he has to say his 7 or 8 or whatever prayers a day. I don't care if there is class at that moment. If we have some satanists they could say we want our inversed pentagram and sacrifice a black goat, our religion commands it and it's our identity to do that at lunch time.

What I'm trying to tell you here is that there are some allowances made (mostly about food in the canteen, no pork products and so on for those who won't eat it ) but that's it. It's school regulations, all the kids have to respect them, not just the Jew. It's the only way this can work and it had to be enforced. You make allowances for headscarfs you have to allow it all or somebody will always yell about intolerance. When you live in a country you have to respect and abide by the laws of this country. No religion in public school IS the law here. If I went to live in the States my kids would probably NOT find a school without religion and I would have to live with that and accept it as well and not rave about how I don't want them to recite morning prayers or whatever. If I went to live in Marocco my daughter would have to wear the scarf wether I want it or not too. But this is France, ok?

There is nothing wrong with being different, but you keep your religious difference OUT of school here.

I brought before the example of blacks. Is the way to fight racism against them to paint them white, or to fight the actual root of racism? Why lessen the differences? What's wrong with being different? I can't practise my Judaism because I'm different from you?

There are more black kids in my son's school than white. Nobody has a problem with that. My son has more black kids as friends than white. Where is the difference? It's just their skincolour wtf? I don't think you can compare that... not here anyway. Perhaps it makes a difference in your country?


Is this not my point exactly? Respect our religious duties. We do them for a reason.

If your religious duty keeps you from frequenting a public school because you have to take of a hat then by all means put your kid in a religious school...



LMAO. Took me a while to find out what communautarism means, but I can finally respond.

While many Jewish communities choose to distance themselves from their country's general public, this is not a religious duty. Wearing a skullcap is, however, and it's not about distancing yourself - it's about expressing your commitement to your lord.

See above.


Yes, but your kids are not Jewish.

Actually their father is a Jew. My mother in law is a jew. The grandfather of my kids was a jew. They lost nearly all their family in the holocaust. What do YOU know about my family and the family of my kids?

And yes, this jew went and married a german catholic christianed girl! No neither in church, nor in a synagogue, but just before the major of our city. See, there are such things as tolerant jews (and christians) who don't let their religion stand in the middle of their lives and complicate things...

I don't practise the religion that was given to me by my parents. It does not mean that I don't have my experience with it...

I'm sure they're not intolerant to you, but even from this distance I can tell that this law is not tolerant to my people. If I were French I'd be offended. As part of the human race I am offended.

It must be nice to have so many certainties..... not.

Second of all, I think considering history Jews would do well to be cautious. Racism is unpredictable, and Jews have always been in an awkward situation.

Please elaborate how a non religious school encourages religious discrimination and racism between it's pupils. You tend to forget what a school is FOR.
FYM.


but the fact is that Antisemitism is on the rise, with France leading by a long way.

I'm sorry? Can you give me some proof of this? Uh?

And no, it's not Nazi Germany. But neither was Germany four years before Hitler. Anything could happen, anywhere, if proper precautions are not taken.

Oh good. You had me worried for a moment there. Who am I a mere German living in France with half-jewish kids to know anything about that. So the proper precautions implicate the protestation of the most tolerant school system I have found so far. This is brilliant.

Edit: Hey, I was looking around the net trying to find out something about YOUR school system. Look what I found :
Here (http://hrw.org/english/docs/2001/12/05/isrlpa3399.htm)

I dare you to find something like that about the public french school system.

You're not so much making an argument as much as making self-rightious outbursts, but I'll try and take this point by point again.
Actually, no I don't. I was talking about the other religious communities who would ask themselves why can this jewish kid wear his kippa and my Aïcha can't wear her headscarf? And then this buddhist father might say, hey, why can my kid not come to school wearing this orange monk tunic and with all his hair shaved off? and by the way, he has to say his 7 or 8 or whatever prayers a day. I don't care if there is class at that moment. If we have some satanists they could say we want our inversed pentagram and sacrifice a black goat, our religion commands it and it's our identity to do that at lunch time.
Okay, the Aicha, whoever it is, should be allowed to wear her headscarf - that's exactly my point. Same as the buddhist, if it's a religious duty. If the relgious duties are impossible for a non-specialist school to cater to, then I'm sure the religious would understand. The problem here is that it's far from impossible to let someone put a little hat over his head. It's much important for us to do it than for you not to do it.
What I'm trying to tell you here is that there are some allowances made (mostly about food in the canteen, no pork products and so on for those who won't eat it ) but that's it.
Okay, so maybe there's a misunderstanding here. Just like eating pork, not going around with a skullcap is an impossiblity for a religious Jew. It's like telling us we're not welcome.
When you live in a country you have to respect and abide by the laws of this country. No religion in public school IS the law here. If I went to live in the States my kids would probably NOT find a school without religion and I would have to live with that and accept it as well and not rave about how I don't want them to recite morning prayers or whatever. If I went to live in Marocco my daughter would have to wear the scarf wether I want it or not too. But this is France, ok?
I disagree. You should rave about the fact that your kids must recite morning prayers if you don't believe in it. No one has the right to force his religion on you or your family. Same thing about Morocco. If what you say is true then I have just as much criticism against those counties than as against France, though I wasn't expecting much from Morocco in the first place.

If a country presumes to be democratic, then it can not meddle in its people's religious affairs (that is, unless these are hurting others). If it does, then it is not a proper democracy, and does not deserve our respect.
There is nothing wrong with being different, but you keep your religious difference OUT of school here.
That makes absolutely no sense. There's nothing wrong with it but don't do it? Why not? Becuase the big-wigs said so?
There are more black kids in my son's school than white. Nobody has a problem with that. My son has more black kids as friends than white. Where is the difference? It's just their skincolour wtf? I don't think you can compare that... not here anyway. Perhaps it makes a difference in your country?
You misunderstand my point. Black people in essence make a statement about not being white by having black skin, just the way Jewish people make a statement about being Jewish by wearing a skullcap. They're screaming out "I'm black", when everyone around them is white. Yes, they have no choice in the matter, but the point I was trying to make was that no one expects blacks to be ashamed of their difference, even if it's just a physical one, and exactly the same standards should be used in regard to religious Jews. Unless you think that religious difference is something to be ashamed of.
If your religious duty keeps you from frequenting a public school because you have to take of a hat then by all means put your kid in a religious school...
I've figured by now that you have no respect for my religion, nor for any others', but for fuck's sake, that's a real childish stand to take in a debate.

If a public school tells you're not wanted, the state is inadvertently telling the kids that they're not welcome, and it could be a dangerous sign of what's to come. This is a line that should not be crossed.
Actually their father is a Jew. My mother in law is a jew. The grandfather of my kids was a jew. They lost nearly all their family in the holocaust. What do YOU know about my family and the family of my kids?

And yes, this jew went and married a german catholic christianed girl! No neither in church, nor in a synagogue, but just before the major of our city. See, there are such things as tolerant jews (and christians) who don't let their religion stand in the middle of their lives and complicate things...

I don't practise the religion that was given to me by my parents. It does not mean that I don't have my experience with it...
Give me a break. You don't practise Judaism, and neither do your kids, at least not the orthodox version, so my argument still stands. I don't care about your marriage. Get to the point.
Please elaborate how a non religious school encourages religious discrimination and racism between it's pupils. You tend to forget what a school is FOR. FYM.
Not a "non-religious" school. An anti-religious school. When the freedom of religion is breached, it can have effects on the whole country's society, not just between pupils.
I'm sorry? Can you give me some proof of [French Antisemitism]? Uh?
I'm not big on sources. I know about French antisemitism from following the news. I was led to believe it was a generally well known fact. I've seen countless reports on it. Frankly, I'm not sure what to search for, but it's not a main point of my argument so we can ignore it for the time being.
Oh good. You had me worried for a moment there. Who am I a mere German living in France with half-jewish kids to know anything about that. So the proper precautions implicate the protestation of the most tolerant school system I have found so far. This is brilliant.
You know, even if it's not having an immediate effect, which I doubt considering all I've heard, it very likely could have an effect in the future. As I've said again and again, when freedom of religion is not kept sacred, a dangerous line has been crossed.

Yes. You are correct about the discrimination in Israeli schools and society. It's a terrible thing, but it has nothing to do with anything we've just discussed. I've never said my country was perfect.

EDIT: I've found this (http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw2004/general-analysis.htm). It's not as comprehensive as I might have liked, but it should give you the general idea that France does have a problem of anti-semitism. If you still find that hard to believe, I'll see if I can dig up something more serious.

Thank you for taking the time to research this. Yes it's awful.

Do you have something that has not been issued by Tel Aviv university and is not only bout Jews? First you were talking about racism plural, now it's all about the Jews again? Are there things like that in all big cities in Europe and in the world or is this something limited to France? Are they sufficient in number to let you talk about a racism that is specifically directed against Jews? Could the attackers in question have been muslim? And so on. So many questions. I'm sorry but the only racism I hear about where I live, as in everyday in the street racism are nearly always between the islamic and jewish citizens. I understand that these are all french citizens and as such will be judged as "the french" too. But then again they are acting as outlaws there...and will be put into prison once caught.

Back to Topic: Actually PERSONALLY I think too that the scarf ban went a bit over board and there might be some hidden and never officially stated reason regarding the current worldwide terrorist fear behind this too, at least it certainly helped to get this law passed. But I really believe that this whole scarf thing has been blown way out of proportion and was hoping that giving you the reasons that are generally accepted here would perhaps help you to see this from our point of view too.

If wearing a kippa is really as important for you as not eating porc meat, then I suppose that the different jewish communities have taken the necessary steps protesting against this with my government. After all not everybody can pay for private schools either. Please believe me when I tell you that our education ministry does it's best to make everybody feel welcome in our school. Alas it can't be helped if the more fundamentalist communities of each religion will always find something that does not suit their requirements. As I told you above, the biggest part of the jewish community respects this law and still sends their kids to school.

A public system is always something rigid. But if you wanted to attack the french school system you should have digged deeper, you would have come up with a real difference of chances at going to university (orientation issues in college) between children from worker families and from middle-class families.

There is a real injustice to fix in my opinion...but it's still not as bad as that discrimination thing between palestinian kids and jewish kids you have in Israel...

"You misunderstand my point. Black people in essence make a statement about not being white by having black skin, just the way Jewish people make a statement about being Jewish by wearing a skullcap. They're screaming out "I'm black", when everyone around them is white. Yes, they have no choice in the matter, but the point I was trying to make was that no one expects blacks to be ashamed of their difference, even if it's just a physical one, and exactly the same standards should be used in regard to religious Jews. Unless you think that religious difference is something to be ashamed of."

I'm going to save this pearl of wisdom and show it around to friends. Thanks for a good laugh lol. And you are telling me off about self-righteous outbursts? lmao.

Oh and please, no more dragging up the Nazis out of their coffins in conversation... that's nearly as bad as having a discussion with a african-american who tell's you "it's because I'm black".

It does not help along discussion it's just waving around a cultural/racial insecurity like some big cave-man club... you know, I'm really trying to be patient here. And I'm really trying to understand your point of view, not just crush it with my opinion.

You are entitled to your opinion just as I am to mine after all... consider this an exchange, ok?

The reason I'm now only talking about anti-semitism and Jews is because that's the only thing I have an inkling about. I actually started the topic talking more about the Muslim women, but now I'm back to what I have good general knowledge of.

I'll see if I can find something by the end of the day to back this up, but from what I know, yes, anti-semitism is becoming more widespread in Europe, but especially in France. The majority of the perpetrators are Muslim but I don't think that means we can place the blame squarely on the Muslim leadership or community. There first has to be a general atmosphere of racism (if you're interested, I believe this exists in Israel too), and a kind of almost silent agreement to fanaticism.
Even if these guys are put into prison, which from my understading a lot of the time they are not, it doesn't need to happen in the first place, and countries that have been more wary of descrimination have had less of these incidents.
But I really believe that this whole scarf thing has been blown way out of proportion and was hoping that giving you the reasons that are generally accepted here would perhaps help you to see this from our point of view too.
I understand, but what I'm trying to say is that this ban really is as bad as all that. You say it's been blown out of proportion. I think it's not being taken seriously enough. I'd have expected a worldwide denouncement.

I understand the reasoning, and I think the intent is basically good, but I think that there is ignorance of how damaging this is to the religious, and possibly to the society at large.
If wearing a kippa is really as important for you as not eating porc meat, then I suppose that the different jewish communities have taken the necessary steps protesting against this with my government. After all not everybody can pay for private schools either.
Y'know, maybe they have, but, again, this should not have happened in the first place. And once it's already happened, it should have caused an outrage. It's unwanted and unncessary intervention in people's religion. I thought it was a given that that's wrong. Isn't it?
Alas it can't be helped if the more fundamentalist communities of each religion will always find something that does not suit their requirements. As I told you above, the biggest part of the jewish community respects this law and still sends their kids to school.[QUOTE]
I don't know the numbers in France, but in Israel there are about a 1.5 million Jews of the sects that could not respect this law. But even if Jews are not fighting this decree, why should they have to? Why should the norm be accpeting limitations on your religion for the sole purpose of blending in? It's an undemocratic law in an undemocratic spirit.
[QUOTE]I'm going to save this pearl of wisdom and show it around to friends. Thanks for a good laugh lol. And you are telling me off about self-righteous outbursts? lmao.
This is the kind of comment that does nothing for a debate. What's wrong with the point I made? Do I quote you and this "this is hilarious" instead of responding to your points?
Oh and please, no more dragging up the Nazis out of their coffins in conversation... that's nearly as bad as having a discussion with a african-american who tell's you "it's because I'm black".

It does not help along discussion it's just waving around a cultural/racial insecurity like some big cave-man club... you know, I'm really trying to be patient here. And I'm really trying to understand your point of view, not just crush it with my opinion.
I'm trying to be patient too, but it gets frustrating with your condescending attitude. Can we agree to stop the emo and respond objectively?

The Nazis are no more dead than racism against blacks. Yes, it's not nearly as bad as it used to be, but that doesn't mean it doesn't still exist, waiting for its chance.
Perhaps the Nazis are a bad example because of all the baggage that brings. I'm not talking about the war and I'm not talking about the concentration camps. I'm talking about the Jews becoming second-class citizens, of having less rights and of having hatred directed against them unchecked.

The Jews are not simply paranoid. Throughout history they've been the most persecuted race in the world, due in some part probably to their own attitude. The Jews will always, always be skating on thin ice wherever anti-semitism or racism is even a possiblity.
Only when a country/society/people accept that differences are not to be ashamed of will it be safe for a minority, especially one with as much baggage as the Jews (yes, the anti-semites carry with them the memory of the holocaust too, albeit with a different attitude to it).

Racism should be dealt with when we see the seeds sown, not when society's already in a mad rush of hatred.

Still, much of these is largely irrelevant, when we have the simple issue of freedom of religion being violated. Even if it's not about racism, it's about democracy, in the hope I'm not hammering that in too much. I just never seem to get a reply to this specific point.

Ok, I'll try for no emo lol

Even if it's not about racism, it's about democracy, in the hope I'm not hammering that in too much. I just never seem to get a reply to this specific point.

As far as I know democracy is still synonym to government by the people in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.

Democracies fall into two basic categories, direct and representative. In a direct democracy, all citizens, without the intermediary of elected or appointed officials, can participate in making public decisions. Such a system is clearly only practical with relatively small numbers of people - in a community organization or tribal council, for example, or the local unit of a labor union, where members can meet in a single room to discuss issues and arrive at decisions by consensus or majority vote.

France has the most common form of democracy, that is a representative democracy, meaning the people who passed that law where elected... now if the french people are sufficiently unhappy about that law I guess they won't re-elect those officials again. I know that in a democratic society, majority rule must be coupled with guarantees of individual human rights that, in turn, serve to protect the rights of minorities (whether ethnic, religious, or political, or simply the losers in the debate over a piece of controversial legislation .... like that headscarf in school thing).
The rights of minorities do not depend upon the goodwill of the majority and cannot be eliminated by majority vote. The rights of minorities are protected because democratic laws and institutions protect the rights of all citizens and the rights of minorities do not depend upon the goodwill of the majority and cannot be eliminated by majority vote and the rights of minorities are protected because democratic laws and institutions protect the rights of all citizens.
I think that I understand that you are persuaded that bringing through this law about no open religious signs in school here is a violation of those minority rights. This is where we disagree, I think that the reasons and the role of the school system here should not be implicated into the daily practise of your religion for the aforementioned reasons. I even think that keeping the cultural and religious differences at home and away from school is a chance for the kids to learn to be more tolerant with each other, to get to know each other as individuals and fellow human beings without pressing the everpresent differences they experience out of school.

But I do agree that the scarf law even if it's not in direct violation with the minority rights (in my opinion) is stretching them... and can be misinterpretated like it is here. The focus should be on the school and what your children learn there, not on what they wear. That's just my opinion.

Nobody tries to make the kids ashamed for their religion FYM. Think of this as of a religious switzerland... neutral...

==========================
Edit: More info about this law here:

Law passed the 15 of March 2004

Basically it forbids signs and clothes that lead to recognize immediately of what religion you are, such as the islamic scarf, the kippa or a big cross.

Discreet religious signs are tolerated!

The law does not forbid discreet religious signs sucha s a little cross or hand of Fatma or jewish star (jewellery). Normal accessories usually weared by the students and who don't have a obvious religious signification are allowed unless the interior regulations of the school forbid them.

Who is concerned?

The law is for all pupils of public schools, elementary school, college, high school. In high school it concerns all students, including those that study there after school-leaving examinations leading to university entrance qualification:
Preparation classes for specialist training establishments, entered by competitive exam and highly prestigious ; branches that lead to superior technical qualification and so on.

On the other hand, candidates who come from outside the school for some competitive examination for example and have to do this in the rooms of the public school are not concerned by this law.

That's all. It's only in school, not anywhere else.

personally i think that what the french have done is very good, because i read a girl in the u.k whre i live went into a school wearing a cruicifix who was a Roman Catholic was told to remove her crucifix if we are made to remove items that represent our religion so should people of the islamic belief.