Chechnya

I'm sure you guys have heard of the siege of the Russian school by Chechen terrorists. I'm wondering what exactly the deal is with Chechnya. I understand that this siege's intention was to have some Chechen prisoners released, but I mean the general idea, the Chechen cause. What's the history there? Did Russia invade Chechnya? Is there an opressed population in the Chechen areas? Do they just want independence becuase they feel they are a different people? What exactly is the story here?
As a sidenote, I want to say that no matter what the cause, taking a school full of kids hostage is wrong. It's excusable by nothing.

I'm sure you guys have heard of the siege of the Russian school by Chechen terrorists. I'm wondering what exactly the deal is with Chechnya. I understand that this siege's intention was to have some Chechen prisoners released, but I mean the general idea, the Chechen cause. What's the history there? Did Russia invade Chechnya? Is there an opressed population in the Chechen areas? Do they just want independence becuase they feel they are a different people? What exactly is the story here?
As a sidenote, I want to say that no matter what the cause, taking a school full of kids hostage is wrong. It's excusable by nothing.

I don't exactly know the background, however I'm currently reading those sites:

Russian war crimes in Chechnya: http://www.christusrex.org/www1/icons/chechenya-index.html

amd another site with brutal pictures...http://members.lycos.co.uk/islamonrise/chechenya/chechenya1.html

I hope I could help you a bit.

EDIT: Forgot to show you this site...it explains quite a lot... and it seems to be about oil again... http://www.markswatson.com/WebSite/chechen.htm

All those sites seem to be somewhat biased... I'm wondering more about how this conflict started, and I couldn't find anything about this in either of those sites... Did Russia invade a previously independent Chechnya? If so, what is their excuse for doing so?

I don't know the history, and I think that the body count from the recent terrorist act is inaccurate so far. I hear that it's more in the thousands than in the hundreds. But what I do know is that I can't ever read the whole article without crying and then I just stop reading about it. How could any terrorist group mostly made up of women do this to children? I can't believe that in the U.S. they think the election and Hurricane Frances is bigger news. Maybe the hurricane is big news, but the amount of air time to talk about this incident is not nearly as much as the other stories going on now. How could the RNC be talking about nothing but terrorism and patriotism and then sit by while this is happening in Russia without talking more about it?

All those sites seem to be somewhat biased... I'm wondering more about how this conflict started, and I couldn't find anything about this in either of those sites... Did Russia invade a previously independent Chechnya? If so, what is their excuse for doing so?
Yes. Chechnya was once free. RUssia came in to take over, and the Chechens resisted. In (very) short, since then, Russia has been very dedicated to wiping out all Chechens at all costs. Even now, Chechnya is bombed DAILY. Why doesn't the bloody media show THAT on the news?!!

Exactly PP. Why don't they cover everything in the media? I did hear something about how Russians should have expected this because of how they are treating Chechnya, but there was no explanation of what they were doing to Chechnya. Plus it seems like this story keeps changing.

What was that I heard about the Black Widows? Who are the Black Widows? Are they involved or not? How did footage of the inside of the gymnasium make it's way to television? Who escaped? I thought they said that all the hostage takers died except for 2-4 who are being held by authorities and being questioned.

Yes. Chechnya was once free. RUssia came in to take over, and the Chechens resisted. In (very) short, since then, Russia has been very dedicated to wiping out all Chechens at all costs. Even now, Chechnya is bombed DAILY. Why doesn't the bloody media show THAT on the news?!!
You sure it was that straightforward? Isn't there some complication involving the Soviet Union involved? I'm just interested to hear the Russian side. I've been hearing bad things about the Russian treatment of Chechens but since hearing facts about Israel exaggerated I'm less inclined to take these facts at face value... for instance, are you sure that Chechnya is bombed literally every day? If so, who exactly are they bombing? The terrorists?

Val, I think that the Black Widows is the name of the terrorists who perpertrated this attack but I'm not sure. The footage from the gymnasium was taken by one of the terrorists. Maybe he (she?) left the camera behind when they made a run for it. I've heard that a few terrorist were killed, a few detained, and 3 or 4 are at large. Not positive on that either though. :p

I saw something about the Black Widows today. It said they were Chechen women who lost their children and husbands and feel they have nothing left to live for. They were responsible for many suicide bombs, including the ones that took down the planes in Russia.

Also, I found this: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0908-01.htm

Very good article to clear up some confusion.

About chechenya (spelling): At first They belonged to russia, but wanted to be free, in 1997 they got free. In 1999 chechenyan terrorists blew up some houses i moscow and killed 200-300 people this resulted in the invasion of chetcenia...

During the hostage situation last week a women sayd to one of the terrorists: Please dont kill my son!! He answered: You killed all my 4 sons....

I've been hearing bad things about the Russian treatment of Chechens but since hearing facts about Israel exaggerated I'm less inclined to take these facts at face value... for instance, are you sure that Chechnya is bombed literally every day? If so, who exactly are they bombing? The terrorists?

"Cultural Cleansing," my friend. That's what they're fucking calling it. Sound familiar? While I was there, I met MANY Chechens that were labled by the government as "Terrorists," yet they had NEVER committed any sort of crime. Why? So Russia would have a reason to kill more Chechens. Kill the children, less chance of them growing up to be rebels. Kill the adults, then they won't have kids. Sad, but true.

One woman I worked especially close with had returned from work one day to find her house, torn board from board to the ground. Literally a pile of rubble stood where a house had that morning. When a neighbor saw her return home, the neighbor quickly told her it had been "military men" and she needed to leave quickly. My friend stuck around to find out why it had happened to her, since she'd done nothing wrong. Later that evening police came and announced she had one week to find a place to live or she'd go to jail, since they can't have homeless people about. They joked about what would happen to her once she would arrive in prison.
Instead, she packed the very few things she had left and fled into the rest of Russia. Since that day, her neighbors' houses has been bombed and she has been labled as the "terrorist" that not only destroyed her own home, but that of her neighbors.

I don't doubt that there is more to everything that's going on there, but this is a fraction of the glimpse I saw.

After the break-up of the former Soviet Union, Chechnya was one of th states hoping for autonomy and independence from Russia...Russia, after giving up claims to Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Estonia, Georgia, etc. refused, thus ensuing a long and bloody war between the two regions...

The End. Thread Closed.

But didn't you say Psycik, that some of the children in that school were Chechen, not Russian? Who were the terrorists? Were they Chechens, Russians, Al Quaeda, or Black Widows? Or... all of the above?

I really don't know. That's something that probably only the locals will truly know. The media is saying it was Chechens, but I have trouble trusting what the media says about anything. Perhaps it was Chechens, perhaps it wasn't. But quite a few of those kids WERE Chechens. That's a certainty.

Either way, I wish the link to al Qaeda (I think I finally spelled it right!) would be cleared up. I don't want Americans thinking that al Qaeda had anything to do with it if they didn't. But if they did, then I would like to know for sure. It's not even in the news anymore...

That's a shocking story PP. Do you have any idea why that specific woman was targeted? Was it for racial or religious reasons? Was it to frighten the population? I'm having trouble making sense of this. Could it be that this was an irregular situation? Or that there was perhaps more to this woman than you knew?

Ou Be seems to disagree with you about the way the conflict started. He's saying that Chechnya was never actually independant and was not actually invaded by Russia, which, if true, puts a whole other spin on it. I don't know if he can defend his point, since it seems like he's banned again, but is there some way you can back your own version up?

About the Chechen kids in the school... how? Don't the Chechens live in Chechnya? Or is this some sort of ethnic group from inside of Russia? In any case, I think it is clear that the terrorists were Chechen since their demand was to free some Chechen prisoners, if I remember correctly. Maybe they thought that cause was more important than the Chechen kids' lives. They obviously didn't attach any important to anybody else's, including their own...

That's a shocking story PP. Do you have any idea why that specific woman was targeted? Was it for racial or religious reasons? Was it to frighten the population? I'm having trouble making sense of this. Could it be that this was an irregular situation? Or that there was perhaps more to this woman than you knew?

That was just one example. I could give you many more if you wish... These people are being targeted due to their ethnic group. She in particular HAS caused a wee bit of commosion due to trying to spread the word about HOW Chechens are being treated. She was horribly beaten (while pregnant, no less!) when she was caught with a video camera, walking around one of the cities that has been bombed. If she hadn't been with an American when it all happened, she probably wouldn't have made it (sad, but true. Damn the American title).

About the Chechen kids in the school... how? Don't the Chechens live in Chechnya? Or is this some sort of ethnic group from inside of Russia? In any case, I think it is clear that the terrorists were Chechen since their demand was to free some Chechen prisoners, if I remember correctly. Maybe they thought that cause was more important than the Chechen kids' lives. They obviously didn't attach any important to anybody else's, including their own...
Chechens don't JUST live in Chechenya. Many escape into nearby areas. They have kids, the kids go to school. For example: it would be like many Americans. We may live here, but many of us have parents from other countries. Although I was raised here, I still have my heritage. And they still have theirs.

It's that time of the year again, folks.

NALCHIK, Russia - Scores of Islamic militants launched simultaneous attacks on police and government buildings in this city in Russia’s turbulent Caucasus region Thursday, sparking battles that killed at least 49 people.

Chechen rebels claimed responsibility for the attacks, which forced the evacuation of schools and left corpses littering the streets of Nalchik, the capital of the republic of Kabardino-Balkariya.

Russian President Vladimir Putin, who came to power in 2000 by talking tough on Chechnya, stepped into the crisis, ordering his security forces to blockade the town of Nalchik, a city of 235,000, and kill any gunmen who put up resistance.

“The president gave an instruction that not one gunman should be allowed to leave the town, and those who are armed and putting up resistance must be wiped out,” Deputy Interior Minister Alexander Chekalin said after meeting Putin, Interfax news agency reported.

Estimates of the number of militants involved ranged from 60 to 300. The attacks began with heavy arms fire and explosions, and sporadic shooting continued for four hours afterward.
Officials gave conflicting casualty figures, ranging from 49 to as many as 63.

Death toll rising as bodies are discovered
Fyodor Shcherbakov, a spokesman for presidential envoy Dmitry Kozak, said 49 were killed — 25 rebels were killed, 12 police officers and 12 civilians. He said the number was constantly rising as bodies were being discovered.

Hours earlier, officials said 63 people had been killed. Chekalin said that figure included 50 militants and at least 10 police officers. Local Health Ministry spokesman Stepan Kuskov said at least three civilians were among the dead, and 84 people were wounded. The ITAR-Tass news agency quoted Dr. Asker Zhigunov as saying 15 civilians’ bodies had been brought in to a city hospital.

The Chechen rebels’ decade-long struggle against Russia, originally a separatist movement, has melded increasingly with Islamic extremism in the past decade and spread far beyond Chechnya’s borders to encompass the whole turbulent Russian Caucasus region.

Putin was seriously criticized for remaining silent for too long at the beginning of the Beslan school siege, which involved the seizure of more than 1,000 hostages in a town about 60 miles southeast of Nalchik.

His decision to step publicly into the Nalchik crisis, with his tough talk, appeared to show he was learning from that mistake.

Estimates of the number of militants involved ranged from 60 to 300. The attacks began with heavy arms fire and explosions, and sporadic shooting continued for four hours afterward.

Dmitry Kozak, Putin’s envoy to the southern region, said Thursday’s attackers were holding hostages at a police station, but he did not specify whether they were civilians or officers. A spokeswoman for the republic’s Interior Ministry, Marina Kyasova, said police on the upper floors of the building were battling attackers on the ground floor, and denied that hostages had been taken.

Deputy Russian Prosecutor General Vladimir Kolesnikov told the Interfax news agency that 12 militants had been detained. His estimate for the number of militants involved was 80 to 100, the news agency reported.

Extremism spreading
Police and security forces have fought pitched battles with Chechen rebels across the region, often engaging in urban warfare, and the militants have employed terrorist methods including suicide bombings and the Beslan school drama.

The extremism is spreading despite the government’s harsh anti-terrorist methods, from targeted killings of rebel leaders such as Aslan Maskhadov to paying rewards for information to the demolition of houses where suspected rebels have found refuge.

Alexander Ignatenko, a top Russian expert on Muslim extremists, said international terrorist groups viewed Kabardino-Balkariya and other provinces in the Caucasus as a new front line that could encourage the transfer of Islamic militants from other countries.

Military and police reinforcements were being sent to the city; a truckload of soldiers heading for Nalchik overturned, injuring 18 servicemen, a duty officer for regional road police said.

The Kavkaz-Center Web site, seen as a voice for rebels loyal to Chechen warlord Shamil Basayev, said it had received a message on behalf of the Caucasus Front. It said the group is part of the Chechen rebel armed forces and includes Yarmuk, an alleged militant Islamic group based in Kabardino-Balkariya.

Chekalin said Thursday’s fighting began after police launched an operation to capture about 10 militants in a Nalchik suburb, and that the attacks were aimed at diverting police. All 10 suspected militants were killed, he said.

Gunmen launched simultaneous attacks against three police stations, the city’s airport and the regional headquarters of the Interior Ministry and Federal Security Service, police said.

The attack at the airport was repelled, the facility was placed under military control and all flights were canceled, news reports said.

The militants also attacked the regional headquarters of the Russian prison system, the Emergency Situation Ministry’s press office said. Interfax said a border guards’ office also came under attack.

School at center of fighting
A teacher from School No. 5, who gave only his first name, Spartak, said children had been evacuated from the building, which is near a police station and an anti-terrorism office at the center of the attacks. Black smoke billowed from the building as panic-stricken parents searched for their children in the school yard.

Windows and doors at the local Federal Security Service office were smashed. Snipers crouched on the building’s roof, and masked soldiers were in the streets, where two armored personnel carriers were parked. A crowd of bystanders stood about 100 yards from the building, with no cordon keeping spectators away.

In December, gunmen raided the Drug Control Agency branch in Nalchik, killing four employees, looting an arsenal and setting the office ablaze.

Earlier this year, Putin ordered security forces to deal more severely with suspected Islamic militants in the south. Law-enforcement agencies have launched a series of sweeps targeting suspected extremists outside Chechnya.

The Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report.

I know it just seems like another southern Russia attack, but this is a big deal. Things seemed to have died down there...and Nalchik? It's furher in from Chechnya. Grr.

I lived in that city once, and went back to visit just over a year ago; it's so much different when the place you see on the news is yours and the people there include your friends.

I'm sorry PP :-( I hope your friends are ok