Gay Marrige

Im sure this somehow fits under a 'political issue'
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I just wanted to know what your thoughts are on this 'issue'.

'Issue' is right, Helios. The issue I take with the gay marriage debating/discussion/whatever is that it shouldn't be such a big political issue. Things like health care, education, employment, taxes, and military spending, in my opinion, should be much bigger issues. Really, what percentage of the total population would a ruling on gay marriage affect? Of course, if they're betting that the vote of the gay population, at least in the upcoming presidential election, will be the deciding factor, then sure, go ahead and talk about it all you want. But if you ask me, even talking about that shit is just ludicrous. It may not seem like the right attitude to take, but I could care less.

I have 'no take' on it to speak of really. I believe same sex marriages should be allowed though. I mean, what exactly is 'the norm'? I have no problem with it.

I will have to say that I am aggresively defensive nuetral here. Translation: Whatever's clever.

I'm with the three if ya'll.
I am for gay marriages. I see no problem with that. If they love one another n want to share their lives with that person then do so.
I also agree with DPD, they r alot more important issues than gay marriages.

But one thing I have noticed thou, that people from our generation don't have as much of a problem for it. But the older people I have come across r so oppossed to it.
I tell them the reason why they view it to be wrong. Is because it was not out n in the open when they were growing up.

One part of me is saying that its sick, wrong and stupid.. and the other side of me is saying, its up to them, they can do what they like.. (I don't care, basically). I think I'll go forn the "I don't care" side... After all, each to their own. No one should have the right to interfere with anyone elses business...

Well, I am a pro-gay rights defender. This has nothing to do with my sexuality or anything of the sorts, but rather my dedication to liberty, whatever that means.

Sick, wrong and stupid? I'm pretty sure that's how the people in the arab world feel about our pornography network. You see, in the end, it's all about morals and how you look at them. I have discussed this topic one too many times, or so I feel, and the only thing I am going to say is that we have absolutely nothing to do with what other people do when they enter their home. As long as they don't hurt anyone, there should be no laws to prevent it.

Bah. Our system of justice and law is based upon the church, which rules were, 1500 years ago very appropriate. There are reasons why many do not eat pork, since it was often the carrier of diseases in the old world. Many things than were done to prevent people from dying. Instead of giving the proper scientific explanation, which they did not know in most cases, they said it was God's will. After so many years we are still following the morals of people who lived in mud cottages and wore animal-skins.

Basicly, moral values are relative to a history of a people. Thus, I feel strongly that we should not annoy other people because of them.

Mr U

No one should have the right to interfere with anyone elses business...

I wouldn't go so far as to say that, but in this matter, many people feel the same way or similar to you, especially if you're talking about HU put it: "As long as they don't hurt anyone, there should be no laws to prevent it."
I'm pretty indifferent, but neither the passage of a law allowing gay marriage nor a gay marriage ban would really offend me too much, as I'd understand the reasoning on both sides.

Plus, everyone is different so to judge someone on their sexuality is plain mean.

I'm young and opposed to gay marriage. I really don't even believe in marriage. It's supposed to symbolize commitment in the house of god to a significant other, but there's drive through wedding chapels in Vegas, so that contradicts the important commitment thing. People who have children together don't get married, or get married too soon and the divorce rate is about 60% in the U.S. Why not just use common law marriages? If you've lived with your partner for more than three years, then you're married (this is not the number that's currently used, I think it's like 7-10) Gay couples are even allowed to adopt children now, which is a strict process to go through in order to have a child. I just don't think a union between same sex partners is natural or appropriate, but that's my opinion.

One part of me is saying that its sick, wrong and stupid.. and the other side of me is saying, its up to them, they can do what they like.. (I don't care, basically). I think I'll go form the "I don't care" side... After all, each to their own. No one should have the right to interfere with anyone elses business...


same for me

as long as they don't go kissing each other (or any of the others things) right infront of me. they can do what they whant

same for me

as long as they don't go kissing each other (or any of the others things) right infront of me. they can do what they whant


Dude, I dont want to see the other things, but hey, c,mon now, kissing?
This has nothing to do with my sexuality, which is purely heterosexual, but saying that they can't kiss in public, is like telling straight people they can't either. It's a form of discrimination. Im all about making it equal for both sides.

Besides, if their in front of you, they aren't going to kiss. Or, you could politely tell them that that doesnt' offend you, but makes you feel uncomfortable. I have known a few gay people. Really nice people. Their sexual preferences did nothing to make me feel uncomfortable in the least. And the guys always seemed to have hot women with them. It was a shame they were only interested in him.

Val, I hardly believe that your beliefs, or the beliefs of any human being should limit another human being. Of course, if you do not agree with gay marriage is okay, as long as you do not attempt to obstruct it, since obstructing would be 'discrimination', and I think we can all agree that we don't want that.

It's what I said in the other thread, the issue is not about allowing gay marriages, it's about allowing homosexuality. That is where the core of the problem lies. There are a lot of Christians in the US, and I can imagine that a president might want to think first before turning them against him.

Mr U

I don't agree with everything about Christianity, or gay marriage, but I would not attempt to obstruct it either.

HomoUniversalis, are you gay, because your name says homo, so you must be gay... lol. Just kidding human.

Woohoo, a different opinion! :D I think I'll take this opportunity to ask you Valasher about something I don't get. Why does two gays marrying eachother bother you? How exactly does it affect you? I have difficulty understanding why this is such a hot topic. What exactly does marriage mean legally? Just what about it is objectionable?
You say it is unnatural. Hmm, is your concern that this will cheapen the marriage institution?

Well, my instinct is revulsion, because I don't really like to think about other people having sex period. Whether they are gay, straight, or something else. I just don't think it's fair that people label themselves in a way that makes me even consider their sexuality, but that is my hangup, not anyone else's.

Legally, I do believe that gay people should have the right to marry (upon further reflection). Because if two people live together and plan to share their lives together, despite their sex, they should be entitled to the benefits of marriage (tax and financialwise). I'm not even really sure what those benefits are, because I actually make less back in taxes married than I did single. But legally it seems like a logical thing to do.

The idea of marriage instituted by the church just seems wrong, because the church, any and most every religion does not promote homosexuality. But that's the only reason against it. Religion has it's spiritual reasons, though I don't know what those are. The only religion I can think of that would condone homosexuality would be Satanism, and the meaning of this religion varies from Satanist to Satanist.

What do you think about it FYM?

Well, I believe the reason the catholic church has banned it is either because of the vague words of some apostle, or to quote some redneck priest, "It's evil! It is the perversion of the human body, and it are the works of satan!"

These are the same people who than have sex with small children. Judge not lest ye be judged?


Mr U

I haven't a problem with gay people at all. I respect the fact that everyone is different. I don't think its right that people should hide their true selves in fear of someone else knowing and spreading it in a nasty way... People should be allowed to express their selves in any way they choose. It's not right for someone else to interfere with your business and then try to bring you down because of who you are.

I want to reitterate a point. Gay marriage is a joke because real marriage is a joke. That's what I meant. The divorce rate is at 60%, meaning that more than half of married people will divorce. I'm not sure where this statistic comes from, though, so it may not be true. I heard it somewhere on television.

And HU, not ALL Catholic Priests are pedophiles, just some of them. Although you could look at it on a grander scale, since it couldn't have gone on without coverups and turning of heads.

Dr Phil said it was 60% for people from 20-25 or something like that. Valasher, don't you dare try to tell me Dr Phil was wrong!!! >:( >:(

Ahem. Yes, marriage is a joke, but still, it's the only legal way to extort a person.

Hmm.. I was actually referring to people crying out loudest how gay marriage should be stopped. These are often the people who do the nastiest stuff. After all, if people are watching the other way, they won't notice what you are doing.

Mr U

Ah, I think I understand then Valasher. If you're saying that your problem is not with the legality of gay marriage but of it being instituted by the church then I agree. If two people of the same sex are living together as partners then it makes sense that they should have the same legal rights as married couples of opposite sex, but it doesn't make sense that homosexuality be forced down the church's throat. People that say they're both gay and Christian and want to have the same ceremony are full of shit. You can't be both gay and a christian. There is actually a direct verse from the old testament forbidding it HU. If you're not willing to take my word for it then I'll get off my arse and get you the exact source, but only if I must.
The pedophile priests issue doesn't really have anything to do with what we're talking about here... I have no doubt in my mind that the overwhelming majority of priests disapproved of what has happened. Plus the molestors weren't thinking of marriage anyway :P

Personally, Val, I think homosexuality is disgusting. The thought of two men going at it gives me the creeps. So even if my religion didn't forbid me from engaging in it I wouldn't have been interested. Whatever anything else does doesn't really interest me as long as no one gets hurt. As DPD says, this is a non-issue. But I wouldn't approve of the church being forced to give up its ideals any more than I would the rabbinate, but since America is not a religious state, this isn't really a problem. If I'm not much mistaken they can be married legally in a non-religious ceremony?

You can't be both gay and a christian. There is actually a direct verse from the old testament forbidding it HU. If you're not willing to take my word for it then I'll get off my arse and get you the exact source, but only if I must.

I am quite aware of that, but if the catholic priest followed the First testament to the letter, half the world would be dead, including me. They seem to want to focus on the gospels, only picking small bits from the old testament as they are well aware that they are not following all the rules written in the first testament either. After all, according to the first testament, you are not allowed to make any kind of pictures or such from figures of heaven. I doubt the vatican wants to destroy it's priced collection of religious relics.

But, that's the whole problem with religion, the whole bible is full of controversial stuff, especially because the people who edited the gospels had no idea what they are doing. I hardly believe we should thusly base our morals on such a scipture.

Mr U

Forget basing morals. The question now is a religious one. You can't make the Church forget about its religious rules in order to appease the liberal-minded. If Christianity forbids homosexuality then it shouldn't be forced to help its practice. It's unfair and undemocratic. To put it in perspective, it would kind of be like forbidding Muslim women to wear their shawls because women shouldn't be oppressed. There's a difference between religion forcing itself on people and people following religion by their own choice. Am I making any sense?

Yes, you make perfect sense FYM.

And by the way, HU, I know it was Dr. Phil, but I didn't want to mention it for fear of being labeled as one of his followers. I do remember hearing it on the news or somewhere besides Dr. Phil before he said it. I would be interested to know where those statistics come from exactly. Who tallies the amount of divorces in the U.S.? Is divorce an option outside of the U.S.?

If the process of marriage is legalized for same sex partners, but not endorsed by any religion, then doesn't that take away it's real meaning? And isn't the state supposed to be separate from religion? I thought that was one of the base fundimentals this nation was founded on: separation of church and state. So why is marriage both legal and religious? We got married in a church, but forgot to sign the papers, so religiously we were married on the 18th of August, but legally we were married on the 19th. I picked the 18th because numerologically it's a lucky number (9) for marriage. The other lucky numbers would have been 3 or 6. And numerology isn't even a valid science! LOL.

If the process of marriage is legalized for same sex partners, but not endorsed by any religion, then doesn't that take away it's real meaning?
Meaning? I dunno, I wasn't really talking about the meaning of marriage, I was talking about its legal implications. I guess the meaning of marriage would be of two people joining together - if gays want some kind of ceremony to symbolise that then they need to get themselves organised, but they can't force the church to participate - that's taking away the freedom of religion - that's saying you can't be Christian because it doesn't agree with us as gays.

I dunno how you go about marriage in the US. I know that here in Israel state marriages are only religious, which pisses a lot of people off becuase of what you said about separation of church and state. How do you do it over there? Is the religious ceremony just symbolic or does it hold any legal value? If you decided to skip the ceremony and just signed the papers would you still be considered married? Because if you would then there is a separation of church and state.

You can get married by only signing 'the papers'. But for a lot of people there is not a lot religous backing even if they have the ceremony in the church and all. Its for some people just an event to 'celebrate' their marrige.

I believe there is something in those papers saying something about marrige being a vom between man and woman. (Im not sure though) The fact is we try to seperate church from state but when every single president has been a christian and the majority of the country is also christian, its not that easy.

Yes, if you go to the courthouse and sign papers you are legally married. The religion part falls to you and your specific church. The church charges around $300 for the ceremony, and more for the reception, but that's a general figure, could cost more or less depending. You have to take care of the paperwork yourself, but you also get your priest/minister/whoever marries you to sign a paper and take that to the courthouse. If you get married just simply by going to the courthouse, it costs almost nothing. But weddings can cost thousands of dollars. Mine cost $1500 and that was pure luck that I had people in my family to donate pictures, cake, and dresses as wedding gifts. If I had to pay for everything it probably would have been $5000 or more. Also, somehow my dad managed to pay for everything, as is supposedly customary (the brides father pays for whatever reason). If I had it to do over again, I might have just skipped the wedding and asked for the money for a car or something, but it was fun to wear the dress and go through the rituals, too. :)

This thread should be merged wid da 'Freedom' fred, aight!?!?

I say, FUCK da constitution and FUCK Bush and his cronies telling people what is right and wrong and FUCK the bible for it's bullshit and FUCK YOU, and you and you and you and you...you're cool...and fuck you.

Dere ain't nuthin in da bible that can't be interpreted in a 100 different ways, so there ain't no conclusive shit saying yay or nay to batty boys bumming each other then plonking a ring on their fairy's hand or hairy-assed lesbos in dungarees getting all kootchie bout a rock on their finger before chowing down and eating some more carpet. I sure ain't no les(although I emphaise wid dem!) and I definitely ain't ever had no cock rocket, but I say alls well on this fair, greeny blue earth, so let the people get on wid dere own shit...If it ain't hurtin no-one what be the problem, son?

Queers, big ears.

Actually, Cheney has an openly gay child... what a daughter? I have no idea other than that I heard it on the news. He was making a statement about it saying that legally he has no objections to gay marriage, or so I gathered.

Of course he will say 'legally' as what could possibly be 'illegal' about it? The Republican's crusade is about their belief that it is 'morally' wrong.

Speaking of moral administrations, did you see Stephen Baldwin making an ass out of himself by saying he would pick a president based on their decision making by way of faith? What an idiot. He was basically saying he would pick Bush because he is lead by God, not by logic. Although he didn't mention Bush's name, he did have some nasty things to say about Kerry, so I assume that's what he meant.

The Republican's crusade is about their belief that it is 'morally' wrong.

Well most of the Rebublicans and most of the goverment period are christians. So to them it is "morally" wrong.

I'm an avid supporter of Gay rights/Marriges.

I may be young, and most people think that younger people that support gay rights, are just intolerant about the way it works.
Most societies don't agree with gay marriages, but I feel that people who love each other, wheather it be male-female, female-female, male-male should have the right to be together, without fear of 'sin'.
Also, and this is my major factor behind my support, is that Domestic Abuse in realtionships is high, mostly it's the male ego that engages it, but it can be females. But if someone were to love another, without fear, then wouldn't that relationship be safer? For most people, who want a realtionship, and go out there to find someone, they deserve the right to marry them (if thats what they want).

Gay People should be able to get married if they want to it is not up to the Government to decide what is right for people and what isnt. This has nothing to do with my sexuality. But I do have friends that happend to be bi and Gay. They have "Civil" Rights too which are being violated by W.

I say let them do whatever they want. I mean really, who the hells business is it anyway? Only the business of the 2 people who are in love and want to go that one step further to tighten the bond. So I say bugger to the knockers, they should pull their heads in and mind their own backyard and business.

We have hetro marriages out there failing badly, children being mentally and physically abused by these 'normal' married couples, and usually getting away with the crimes they commit to their kids and or spouse. It's all shit. Damn I hate the word 'normal'. That's what the real issue is. What trully is normal? If anyone can find an answer to that I'd love to hear it.