How would you feel?

With all the current fighting going on in Iraq it seems obvious that it's time for the US to end it's occupation...but...

There are so many factors to consider anything could happen if this were to be the case. For example, the malita that are the main protagonists of the US troops could stage a coup and begin their own dictatorship of the country. This would leave the general public of Iraq in a state very much similar to the Saddam-era.

However, I think if I was an Iraqi, I would find the current occupation as a slight on my own citizenship...it's almost as if the US don't believe that Iraqi's are fit to govern themselves...

Just as any country is filled with intelligent people and stupid people, so to is a country like Iraq...who is to say that if left to their own devices a natural, evoluation of politics would not occur and a TRUE leader of the country wouldn't emerge. Sure, the implementation of the new Iraqi government is set to take place over the next couple of months, but the US presence is not going to subside for a long time and there is an underlying suspicion that this government is going to be basically hand-picked by Bush et al...

If you lived there how would you feel? Independence on your own terms, or a democratic government decided by foreigners? I personally would feel angry at the occupation, but also thankful that Saddam is out, even if it was achieved under false pretences...It's an extremely conflicting position to be in...what would you do?

good point. :)

Saddam is out, of course that's one of the positive factors of the US occupation. But I still don't agree with Bush's politics and if the government was chosen by Bush or the US, then it would be totally wrong in my opinion. Iraq has a right to choose its own government, even if the next government is one that the US doesn't agree with. At last, it is still their country and it should be run by Iraqis that are neutral and not controlled by anyone else. In my opinion, I think a democratic system would be the best but I don't live there and I don't know what happens but from what I've seen today on TV, I would be so angry with the US troops. Have you seen those disgusting pics, I'm referring to?

lol mabey they'll become communist

the americas should leave iraq. and let the people choise there own goverment and leader

in my opinion we are done with the war all that is left to be done is to find osama bin laden and help rebuild the colony. it dosent take a army to do that so we should stop sending more and more troops.

Who is to say that another dictator wouldn't emerge as soon as we leave. There are still Saddam loyalists over there. The good thing about what Bush is doing (I can't believe I can even think of something good coming from Bush) is that no one is starving or under the control of a madman, but at the same time, we as a foreign nation to them shouldn't be picking the next government for Iraq. I agree that perhaps the U.S. political machine should look at the candidates to make sure that they are working toward the greater good of Iraq (making sure no one is starving and that everyone has some freedoms), but at what point do we step out?

well i think all of you are correct. in my opinion we should stop giving away all of our soilders to this place that some call Iraq and others call a place of pain. many of the soilders would love to come home but are to scared and worried to let the other soilders and their familys down .Iwould most likely agree with my older brother AlmightyOne.

Originally posted by Sweety
well i think all of you are correct. in my opinion we should stop giving away all of our soilders to this place that some call Iraq and others call a place of pain. many of the soilders would love to come home but are to scared and worried to let the other soilders and their familys down .Iwould most likely agree with my older brother AlmightyOne.

hey sweety nice to hear from you. "thanx."

Originally posted by AlmightyOne
in my opinion we are done with the war all that is left to be done is to help rebuild the colony.

!!!!!!!! Do you even know what 'colony' means!?!?!?!?!?! Obviously not...

What most Iraqis are concerned about is becoming a colony! This is precisely what they DON'T want! They want a free country, with a public-majority elected leader NOT a BIG BROTHER to control them from afar...

Originally posted by Ou Be Low hoo
!!!!!!!! Do you even know what 'colony' means!?!?!?!?!?! Obviously not...

What most Iraqis are concerned about is becoming a colony! This is precisely what they DON'T want! They want a free country, with a public-majority elected leader NOT a BIG BROTHER to control them from afar...

I think you are talking pre-war here. The chance on an independent Iraq were stuffed into the ground when the US violated it's sovereignity by invading.The US will put a pro-American government there, and it will eventually collapse. Perhaps by terrorists from the Ba'at party, perhaps just some random 'do-it-yourself'-terrorists. In any case, a pro-American, or even pro-western for that matter, government will not hold, since it will to much create that 'colony' feel Ou Be so nicely described. What we need to do is pull out today, and leave the democratisation, which is a progress, not a switch you just turn, into the capable hands of the Iraqi people. If we did it, surely they can too.

Mr U

Personally, as an Iraqi, I'd find both possibilities disturbing in different ways - leaving the Americans would be threatening my sovereignity, but having them leave would threaten my security and very possibly my country's future. So in that sense both would suck. But thinking rationally, with the knowledge that I have, which is not nearly sufficent to make a proper decision about this, I'd rather have the Americans there keeping peace then them leaving the country to the control of warlords.

However, I would much prefer that an international peace-keeping force would be stationed in the country. It seems to be the obvious solution. I don't know why it hasn't been done yet. Maybe the Americans could be heavy financers of it in order to be cleaning up properly their own mess...

I think that right now, if the Iraqi people were left to their own devises another dictatorship would arise. Creating a democracy takes more than good will and intelligence. There are other forces working in the area, hungry for power and with large resources that wouldn't be able to be dealt with properly until the Iraqis have a fully functional government. You know what? Maybe even a fully funtional temporary American handpicked government, as long as it's temporary...

HU, I'll have to disagree about democratisation being a long process. A fascist regime doesn't slowly morph into democracy as it grows smarter. The dictators like their power and don't give a shit what their people think about it. The power must be yanked out of their hands in order for any democracy to take place. The yanking can be ugly and very violent at times, but it's the only way to finish dictatorships off. The thing is, historically those that have defeated the dictatorships have been people from the inside, who had made plans on how to create a democratic state out of the ruins - and obviously if they have the power to overthrow the regime they'd have the power to govern their people properly - but here the ones that have overthrown the government are an outside force, which is where it gets complicated... They have the power to create a government and to govern the people, but that is not an option... there is no choice but to wait until the proper people are fit to do it.

The new gocernment doesn't need to be hand-picked by Bush. If this were done properly then the elected government would take the temporary one's place as soon as time allowed.

Originally posted by HomoUniversalis
I think you are talking pre-war here. The chance on an independent Iraq were stuffed into the ground when the US violated it's sovereignity by invading.


No...I think that's is STILL want most Iraqis want. The US-led invasion of Iraq was indeed a sad thing, but now that it's happened it can't be changed. So...I agree, in part, with FYM...America caused this mess, so they should foot the bill. But they should also pull out and let peace-keepers move in to act as security for the Iraqis. THEN, and perhaps ONLY then, can a true democratic government evolve. It is simple to say, but it seems to get over-looked...How can a government be truly democratic if one, sole power(the US) has such a huge influence over who gets elected!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?! It makes a mockery of all that the US is supposed to be helping Iraq to achieve...'Foreign super-power controlled democracy'!!?!?!?!?! What the fuck is that!?!?!?!?!?

Originally posted by Ou Be Low hoo
No...I think that's is STILL want most Iraqis want. The US-led invasion of Iraq was indeed a sad thing, but now that it's happened it can't be changed. So...I agree, in part, with FYM...America caused this mess, so they should foot the bill. But they should also pull out and let peace-keepers move in to act as security for the Iraqis. THEN, and perhaps ONLY then, can a true democratic government evolve. It is simple to say, but it seems to get over-looked...How can a government be truly democratic if one, sole power(the US) has such a huge influence over who gets elected!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?! It makes a mockery of all that the US is supposed to be helping Iraq to achieve...'Foreign super-power controlled democracy'!!?!?!?!?! What the fuck is that!?!?!?!?!?
So what exactly are you disagreed with me about? The temporary government thing? What do you think should be done?

Who said Iraqis want democracy?
- Saddam has had election results of 99% in the past. They could have been rigged, or were people too afraid to vote otherwise?

Is democracy the answer to the world's (and Iraq's) problems?
- I dunno. With communism virtually gone, the next threat to America (and the West?) seems to be the Middle-East. Is it oil? Is it Islam?

My opinion about America fell thru the roof after Invasion:Iraq. The reasons for doing this is still not acceptable - weapons or no weapons. The world is an evil place, ppl with ulterior motives are ruling and running this world - and democracy is just another myth: Who listened/asked the American people if it is OK to invade Iraq? No referendum, no polls, nothing.

Originally posted by freeyourmind
So what exactly are you disagreed with me about? The temporary government thing? What do you think should be done?

They should get the fuck outta there and simply support the country financially since they started this whole mess.

Originally posted by tpfkanep
Who said Iraqis want democracy?
- Saddam has had election results of 99% in the past. They could have been rigged, or were people too afraid to vote otherwise?


Don't be stupid. Of course the voting was rigged and of course people were too afraid to vote otherwise...IT WAS A BLOODY DICTATORSHIP!

There was no need to hold a public referendum on whether to invade Iraq as the people put Bush in that position of power in the first place. They gave him the power to decide for them...

What was needed was a broad international concensus with UN backing...this was sadly lacking.

After THOSE photos, if I were an Iraqi, I would be even more angry at the occupation than I was before. HOW DARE THEY TREAT NATIVE PEOPLE LIKE THAT IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY!

After THOSE photos, if I were an Iraqi, I would be even more angry at the occupation than I was before. HOW DARE THEY TREAT NATIVE PEOPLE LIKE THAT IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY!
Dare I mention: Red-Indians?

Originally posted by tpfkanep
Dare I mention: Red-Indians?

What the flying fuck is a 'Red-Indian'!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!

Are you talking about 'Native Americans'? You racist muther-fucker...!

I love my mommy! Anything wrong with that?

In my opinion, I would feel a mixed emotion. Gratefulness for the Americans removing an oprresive bastard from office, but then at the same time, hatred for a foreign nation, trying to set up my government. Bush says its for the best for the country, but Im not buying it. It's good for America, because if a Democratic government was set up in Iraq, then not only could they station troops there, like they have stationed in all other Democratic countries, but they can also get oil for cheaper, since Iraq would be an ally. Then again, if Iraq was democratic, they could inadvertantly elect another dictator-in-wait, who would, as soon as America left, do exactly what Saddam Hussein did. Iraq deserves it own governement, one set up by their people, not ours.

At this precise moment in time, I would be feeling...GET THE FUCK OUTTA MY COUNTRY!

I heard Bush on CNN today going on about the usual load of bollox...we built a school - how many did you destroy in the first place?!?!?! - blah, blah, blah...

The US should just get out of there and hand complete responsibility to the UN in conjunction with the Iraqi people. Sure, that might piss-off all his pals who are making millions through the rebuilding processes, but does he really want to go down in history as the idiot who waged a war on terrorism and simply created more terrorists...good logic, Mr.Idiot.

Enough name calling here ladies. Aside from that, please continue..;)

For once, I completely agree with Ou Be's last point. Why the hell is the peacekeeping force American and not international? If there's not an unappropriate interest in here for the Americans it doesn't make sense - they're just risking their army and causing the Iraqis to hate them otherwise - or does the rest of the world not agree to send a peace-keeping force?
I wonder if the Americans have been asked why they won't let the international community take over peacekeeping. What would they say to that? It really does seem the obvious solution...

I don't think it makes the slightest bit of difference whether the soon-to-be-in-place Iraqi governing council has a say in what the US army gets up to after June 30th. IT'S FUCKING HAND PICKED BY THE US ANYWAY, SO IT'S NOT LIKE THEY ARE GOING TO GO AGAINST THE PEOPLE WHO PUT THEM IN POWER!!!!!!!!!!!

But, Ou Be, if this government is so pro-American, why in hell don't they acknowledge the rights of a woman? The new constitution prohibits women from voting, and other universal rights...

Why would a government, by America, of America, for America, do such a non-liberal thing?

Mr U

Originally posted by HomoUniversalis
But, Ou Be, if this government is so pro-American, why in hell don't they acknowledge the rights of a woman? The new constitution prohibits women from voting, and other universal rights...


Mr U

HU, that kind of treatment is worng, it is becuase the counrty is thirld world, and they still beleive that men are much more superior than women.....and that will take ages to change.......and not even if their is a new goverment ruling the country.....the people just simply dont understand it yet......:( ......

Originally posted by HomoUniversalis
But, Ou Be, if this government is so pro-American, why in hell don't they acknowledge the rights of a woman? The new constitution prohibits women from voting, and other universal rights...

Why would a government, by America, of America, for America, do such a non-liberal thing?


My guess is that it then can be used as 'one of those things' to slightly appease the Muslim contingent..."Hey look! We're not totally oblivious to Muslim ideas! No votes for the chicks...Woo-Hoo!".

As a post note, I'd like to congratulate Amnesty International for having the guts to speak the truth about the US's recent behaviour. Good work, fellas!

"The global security agenda promoted by the US Administration is bankrupt of vision and bereft of principle. Violating rights at home, turning a blind eye to abuses abroad and using pre-emptive military force where and when it chooses has damaged justice and freedom, and made the world a more dangerous place." WORD.

www.amnesty.org

Originally posted by Ou Be Low hoo
With all the current fighting going on in Iraq it seems obvious that it's time for the US to end it's occupation...but...


However, I think if I was an Iraqi, I would find the current occupation as a slight on my own citizenship...it's almost as if the US don't believe that Iraqi's are fit to govern themselves...

Just as any country is filled with intelligent people and stupid people, so to is a country like Iraq...who is to say that if left to their own devices a natural, evoluation of politics would not occur and a TRUE leader of the country wouldn't emerge. Sure, the implementation of the new Iraqi government is set to take place over the next couple of months, but the US presence is not going to subside for a long time and there is an underlying suspicion that this government is going to be basically hand-picked by Bush et al...

If you lived there how would you feel? Independence on your own terms, or a democratic government decided by foreigners? I personally would feel angry at the occupation, but also thankful that Saddam is out, even if it was achieved under false pretences...It's an extremely conflicting position to be in...what would you do?



Problem is not if a population is clever, but if they are scared.
If you are afraid for your life, then a democratic election cannot be achieved. As a result, the departure of all troops from Irak would surely result in leaving the place merely more secure for some years.

Elections shouldn't take place before the area is secured (certainly not right now), that has been pointed out by Amnesty International.

If you want to do something, you do it correctly, even if that costs you the next elections O_o

Originally posted by Jebulum
If you want to do something, you do it correctly, even if that costs you the next elections O_o

As if ANY politician is EVER going to do something for the greater good if it costs him/her their position of power!

Chaos can lead to creation...check out this rock we all live on...

Random question...
Why has the Amnesty International report recieved so little coverage?

Welcome back though...