Humans have exsisted for a very long time im sure you know that....but just out of curiousity I read a book on cavemen and it got me thinking there are two possible ways humans came about either by simply being created as species or throught the long process of evoloution.....
I think humans were created infact not just through my religious beleifs but I think we were created and educated very quikly I mean we knew how to communicate with each other stright away.
The evoloution theory seems very false to me...I am very sure we didnt evlove from apes when they evolved from crodiciles who evolved from fish and so on...We are simialir to the monkey/ape species and very small things but not enough to have evloved from them, I mean were so much smarter than them and we feel emotion unlike anyother species and there is no way we could have simply devloped that during the so called 'evoloution'....
Anyway what do you think??.... We evolved from purple birds.
can i have some of your weed ? We were created by God.
I won't do any more preaching :D (unless you pm me and ask ;) )
ArChITeCt, you've said pretty much everything I think about all the evolution stuff ;) Emotions are the result of complex chemical operations orchestrated by the most complex brain.
At a smaller scale, due to simplified shema, animals do have emotions. pulsions are primal, whatever you like to think we do are primal beings, we are just a tad more complex than the rest of the species (at least in our own way).
Forget it, my weed is obviously better. everyone in their right minds knows we were evolved from giant purple birds, its the wave of the future!!!.............or was it past??? Originally posted by NeoMeansNew
everyone in their right minds knows we were evolved from giant purple birds, its the wave of the future!!!.............or was it past???
I dunno....mumsy always said we we all came from the stork. Are those purple?
Maybe they just evolved from US...hmm..... or maybe I'm just full of crap ;) As of right now, I'm inclined to go with evolving from apes, before that, how IT (life before humans occured), I'm still undecided, but I'm leaning toward saying a handicapped kid drew the universe up on a really big Etch-a-Sketch
and on the topic of storks:
"I'll bet your father spent the first year of your life throwing rocks at the stork."
-Groucho Marx Jeblum you didnt say which form of begining you think we came from..........and no I dont like to share my weed so stick to yours...... I think that the basis of life was created as in the grand architech, but thats all life went its own way after that
sequence of events
1. Grand Architech creates universe through big bang
2. for a while he/she/it allows universe to expoand faster than speed of light
3. slows rate of expansion and sets up the "laws" of physics
4. from there things take their own course and the Grand architech abondons the universe to go off to some other plane of existence/dimension
5. Life evolves on its own, a planet is hit by very large moon chunks fly off taking microbes with it
6. those microbes crash to the earth with the comets/asteroids
7. the microbs unfreeze and start growing
8. after some time (millions of years) the shrew like things that existed during dino time grow up some grow into primates and eventually evolve into humans
and thats how I think it happened Who created the Grand Architect? The Grander Architect? By telling the black hole was created by someone you only create a new level of enigma.. who created that someone?
In the universe, anti-particles and particles sometimes appear. They immediately hit each other, and are reduced to energy. The energy immediately dissipates however, as it compensates for the energy needed to create the particles.
However, if enough particles are created on the same time, the laws of 'nature' fade, and the law of preservation of matter (and with matter, energy) no longer exists. Through this, it is possible to have a Big Bang, because of a statistical value. Judging by the infinite amount of time it had to happen, it had to happen. Our existence was inevitable. Inevitable, but irrelevant, but that's another story :).
That's my two cents anyhow...
HU Originally posted by HomoUniversalis
Who created the Grand Architect? The Grander Architect? By telling the black hole was created by someone you only create a new level of enigma.. who created that someone?
In the universe, anti-particles and particles sometimes appear. They immediately hit each other, and are reduced to energy. The energy immediately dissipates however, as it compensates for the energy needed to create the particles.
However, if enough particles are created on the same time, the laws of 'nature' fade, and the law of preservation of matter (and with matter, energy) no longer exists. Through this, it is possible to have a Big Bang, because of a statistical value. Judging by the infinite amount of time it had to happen, it had to happen. Our existence was inevitable. Inevitable, but irrelevant, but that's another story :).
That's my two cents anyhow...
HU
hmm, did that mean anything or is this one of your bullshit posts? I don't really hear much of the evolution side a lot and if you really do have a well thought out theory, could you come again? :D
For my quick two cents (since I've got a test I need to start studying for now), I think it's impossible to explain through scientific methods how something can burst out of nothing.
You can tell me that people came from apes and apes came from the cell-pool and the world came from the big bang and the big bang came from a grain (it goes something like this, no), but I've never heard an explanation of where the grain and cell pool came from, or of what caused this cellpool and grain to suddenly spring into action (if radiation and energy caused it then the energy and radiation also had to come from something).
My point being that science traces procedures back, but it can never arrive at something's beginning because it will always search where the beginning came from itself.
Saying that the beginning has always been there isn't an answer because it doesn't make sense that after "forever" suddenly something will happen. If it was there forever then it will be forever. If it doesn't have a beginning there's no way it can have an end.
My conclusion to this is that there must have been an intervention at some point of a completely independent force - a force that depends on nothing in the world at all, that exists through itself, and that for that reason does not fall under scientific definition (science says that nothing can come from nothing).
This entity would belong to another world, where physical rules, if any, would not limit it in any way that our rules limit us. Even if not completely free in its own world this entity would be completely free in ours, and therefore completely knowledgable.
So there you have it, the all-powerful, all-knowing being - God.
What else I think about him and religion in general I don't know, but I've yet to see an argument that counters this proof for the existence of a god (again, very likely because most the people I talk to about agree with this, even without investigating or checking for themselves if it makes sense :p)
Hmm, this has turned out longer than I thought. Tear me apart guys :) in my little world we are all giant purple birds, but really i think we were created by aliens (dont laugh at my beliefs) Originally posted by TheOneIsGone
in my little world we are all giant purple birds, but really i think we were created by aliens (dont laugh at my beliefs)
Hahahah, sorry....alright if thats what you beleive then where did the aliens that created us go? Originally posted by freeyourmind
hmm, did that mean anything or is this one of your bull**** posts? I don't really hear much of the evolution side a lot and if you really do have a well thought out theory, could you come again? :D
For my quick two cents (since I've got a test I need to start studying for now), I think it's impossible to explain through scientific methods how something can burst out of nothing.
You can tell me that people came from apes and apes came from the cell-pool and the world came from the big bang and the big bang came from a grain (it goes something like this, no), but I've never heard an explanation of where the grain and cell pool came from, or of what caused this cellpool and grain to suddenly spring into action (if radiation and energy caused it then the energy and radiation also had to come from something).
My point being that science traces procedures back, but it can never arrive at something's beginning because it will always search where the beginning came from itself.
Saying that the beginning has always been there isn't an answer because it doesn't make sense that after "forever" suddenly something will happen. If it was there forever then it will be forever. If it doesn't have a beginning there's no way it can have an end.
My conclusion to this is that there must have been an intervention at some point of a completely independent force - a force that depends on nothing in the world at all, that exists through itself, and that for that reason does not fall under scientific definition (science says that nothing can come from nothing).
This entity would belong to another world, where physical rules, if any, would not limit it in any way that our rules limit us. Even if not completely free in its own world this entity would be completely free in ours, and therefore completely knowledgable.
So there you have it, the all-powerful, all-knowing being - God.
What else I think about him and religion in general I don't know, but I've yet to see an argument that counters this proof for the existence of a god (again, very likely because most the people I talk to about agree with this, even without investigating or checking for themselves if it makes sense :p)
Hmm, this has turned out longer than I thought. Tear me apart guys :)
science will probaly never reach any kind of beggining because everything in due time traces back to the same origins like the Big bang back when this theory was still in its infancy this was though of as the beggining of eveything time included, not till later did scientist start to question what started the big bang,
only now have we come up with any real theory that two universes one entirely composed of Anti-matter and one entirely composed of regular matter collided in a sense from the point of collision our universe was "born" and eventually and some trillions upon trillions of years lets just say a google (it is a real number 1 followed by 100 zero's) after that time the universe would have continued expanding to an extent and this expansion is caused by the "dark matter" that is in the open "spaces" of space " :D so eventually everything will be very spread apart at this time our universe will collide with another universe of equal age paralleling ours if you will, and this ongoing cycle will continue for perhaps forever and our universe will continue to grow bigger with everything in it growing farther and farther apart until it would take light centuries to reach the closet objects, and the reason why we can get anti-matter at all is due to the fact that the two universe's are very close together like plank lenth close (smallest possible distance anything can "exist")
well that got a little long and sorta off topic :D Hmmm.. That or photons start to dissipate. Also you forgot to mention that is one of three theories.
One is the Big Crunch (everything comes back to the place of the Big Bang to form something like a really big black hole)
Two is the expanse, in which the universe gently expands
Three is the rapid expanse in which the universe expands in accelared rate.
FYM, I wasn't bullshitting, I was clearly stating that I believe in the Big Bang to be a collision of particles and anti-particles that create the opposite of a Black Hole, except than on a really big scale. It's too hard to explain for me, I suggest you find someone familiar with Quantum Physics :D
HU yet thats one of the theories behind the big bang that it started from a black hole, also HU quantum physics isnt used to explain anything except on the microscopic level for the big things thats where Einstein's Reletivity is used thats one of the current problems, Reletivity and quantum physics dont quite link together on any comprehensible level,
now back to the original question, another one of my theories is that the current universe and all universe's on the 3-D plane was the direct birth from a higher dimension and so on, it may explain what the universe is expanding into as you know the universe is expanding so we assume it has to be expanding into something that something could easily be the higher dimension from which this universe was born from, and the fourth-D was born from a higher 5-D and so on till there runs out of dimensions :D, and thats my own theory on how it all started dont ask me how the 3-D universe was born I havent gotten that far on the theory just thought of it a few minutes ago lol should have some ides later
this seems to be on the cutting edge of off-topic :D I know what the field of Quantum Physics is, but a person known to Quantum Physics has also had the theories about the creation of the Universe and can probably explain it better than me.
There are only ten dimensions according to some scientists, and the string theory does seem to make sense...
HU I like your theory Helios but how was the last dimension created?? That's the problem. Their is always a first. Unless of course, the first is the last, but one would need basic comprehension of temporal physics, and I kinda got stuck on the gravity-distortions.
Imagine some dude in the future decides it might be fun to blow something up. Instead of just blowing up, it rips through space, and through time, creating the big bang. This is possible as a time paradox, but personally, I find it unlikely. It's a nice theory though..
HU It seems ive come a bit late but anywho, just for a second lets forget about where the "first" dimension came from, but in this dimension the equivelant of say a nuke or black hole, something of immense power at the precise moment in time when the black hole winks out of its current plane or sealing it self off to form a new universe but instead of forming another universe on the same dimensional plane it forms a new dimension lower than it originated from (like fourth to third) or there is the immense supernova version, an extremely large star goes nova and the power from that rips a hole in the dimensional plane creating another plane lower than it, it can only be lower because it would take all the energy of the entire dimensional plane to create another of exactness like a Nova in our universe could not tear a hole and make another 3 dimensional plane in a way ensuring that there can only be one of each dimensional plane (this does not include the dimensions composed of anti particles and matter that directly parralell), but through all this there will eventually be a cutoff point on "new" dimensions like 1 or 2-D because 1-D is essentially nothng but points, no lenth no height or width just points, after 1-d there is nothing at all, at least so far thats my own assumtion, unless and i'm really just throwing this one in here, just maybe after 1-d the nova's or black holes start riping paradox dimensions that have only lenth, or only volume, thats very confusing just thinking about it,
the point is no dimension can rip into a higher one and nothing can go from a lower dimension to a higher one like a 2-d creature cannot travel to our 3-d because he lacks volume he is only lenth and width, also on a side note i never consider time as a dimension just for sake that nothing really exists on the "time" dimension but it "flows" through all of them, interesting thought I just came up with consider time is always a higher dimension no matter how many there are that way time will always be in every dimension i think we were created by a supreme life form, gods (or mabey aliens)
evolving from monkey's is also a big option. but i think we were created. and 'IT' can destroy us also Originally posted by Helios
It seems ive come a bit late but anywho, just for a second lets forget about where the "first" dimension came from, but in this dimension the equivelant of say a nuke or black hole, something of immense power at the precise moment in time when the black hole winks out of its current plane or sealing it self off to form a new universe but instead of forming another universe on the same dimensional plane it forms a new dimension lower than it originated from (like fourth to third) or there is the immense supernova version, an extremely large star goes nova and the power from that rips a hole in the dimensional plane creating another plane lower than it, it can only be lower because it would take all the energy of the entire dimensional plane to create another of exactness like a Nova in our universe could not tear a hole and make another 3 dimensional plane in a way ensuring that there can only be one of each dimensional plane (this does not include the dimensions composed of anti particles and matter that directly parralell), but through all this there will eventually be a cutoff point on "new" dimensions like 1 or 2-D because 1-D is essentially nothng but points, no lenth no height or width just points, after 1-d there is nothing at all, at least so far thats my own assumtion, unless and i'm really just throwing this one in here, just maybe after 1-d the nova's or black holes start riping paradox dimensions that have only lenth, or only volume, thats very confusing just thinking about it,
the point is no dimension can rip into a higher one and nothing can go from a lower dimension to a higher one like a 2-d creature cannot travel to our 3-d because he lacks volume he is only lenth and width, also on a side note i never consider time as a dimension just for sake that nothing really exists on the "time" dimension but it "flows" through all of them, interesting thought I just came up with consider time is always a higher dimension no matter how many there are that way time will always be in every dimension
Now thats some fucked up thinking Helios,, I like it...... well I can think of some good stuff when I want to, its good I can talk about about stuff like this here because in my lousy high school physics class we dont get beyond very basic stuff I mean very basic a few weeks ago we were studying center of gravity but I guess they need to know the basics before they get to harder stuff :D, and this is definately not the basic stuff not close Okay, sorry for not replying for such a long time. Kinda forgot about this thread. Both HU and Helios said something about stuff and anti-stuff colliding or something. Hmm, could you maybe have a shot at trying to explain this? What the hell is anti-matter?
Anyhow, like Helios said, this doesn't answer my question. Here again, science says that unlike what we thought before, not only does C come from B, but also B comes from A! Now where does that get us? So everything originated from something? It's a good think to scientifically explore out past but it doesn't answer the philosophical question of something bursting out of nothing after an eternity of waiting - if it waited for eternity before it started then it never started.
You could go on about particles and anti-particles all day (and I'll listen, I am in fact interested in this stuff :D), but that still doesn't tell you how everything started.
To say that we originated from the big bang is the same thing as saying that we originated from apes, Homo-erectus, our grand-grand-grandparents, our grandparents, our parents :D It doesn't really matter which stage you choose because each stage would have a neverending series of stages after it and a neverending series of stages before it - according to science.
However, according to religion and the belief that we were created by god, or at least according to Judaism - and here I must warn that I'm getting into subjects that I haven't really delved into, my knowledge of this stuff is still pretty limited - the world was created something like 6000 years ago (and I'm not sure about this number either) in the middle of some of its stages, with evidence of things happening before it - not because they did, but because no "spirit" or "life" ever really has a beginning.
You can look at it like a work of art, preferable a story or a movie. No work is completely whole. Even when it feels like it's a perfect living thing which we have experienced fully - including all of its beginning, middle, and end this isn't the case - we have only sampled a portion of the middle, even if it seems a wholesome one. A true work of art is immortal (which is what triggers fan-fics and the like).
When a person writes a story he can never cover all ends. Every time he completes one area of the story then he leaves the "completing" part incomplete itself (I hope I'm not babbling senselessly now. Please let me know if this makes any sense)...
However, this kind of "work of art" would necessitate an author who was above the rules - which the rules of the story would not apply to in the least. The author of our world we call God. And as is with every form of life or spirit, the only way it can be created is by an entirely independent interventor (I don't consider having baby's creating life. You do not create babies from nothing. The tools are there already and all they need is to be mixed together - this is chemistry - not art/creation.
Bah. Gee, I hope that made sense. Originally posted by freeyourmind
What the hell is anti-matter?
All I can tell you is that, that shit is dangerous and has to remain in a vaccum otherwise it will react with other matter and then we are fucked, you know what im saying.... Originally posted by freeyourmind
Okay, sorry for not replying for such a long time. Kinda forgot about this thread. Both HU and Helios said something about stuff and anti-stuff colliding or something. Hmm, could you maybe have a shot at trying to explain this? What the hell is anti-matter?
Anyhow, like Helios said, this doesn't answer my question. Here again, science says that unlike what we thought before, not only does C come from B, but also B comes from A! Now where does that get us? So everything originated from something? It's a good think to scientifically explore out past but it doesn't answer the philosophical question of something bursting out of nothing after an eternity of waiting - if it waited for eternity before it started then it never started.
You could go on about particles and anti-particles all day (and I'll listen, I am in fact interested in this stuff :D), but that still doesn't tell you how everything started.
To say that we originated from the big bang is the same thing as saying that we originated from apes, Homo-erectus, our grand-grand-grandparents, our grandparents, our parents :D It doesn't really matter which stage you choose because each stage would have a neverending series of stages after it and a neverending series of stages before it - according to science.
However, according to religion and the belief that we were created by god, or at least according to Judaism - and here I must warn that I'm getting into subjects that I haven't really delved into, my knowledge of this stuff is still pretty limited - the world was created something like 6000 years ago (and I'm not sure about this number either) in the middle of some of its stages, with evidence of things happening before it - not because they did, but because no "spirit" or "life" ever really has a beginning.
You can look at it like a work of art, preferable a story or a movie. No work is completely whole. Even when it feels like it's a perfect living thing which we have experienced fully - including all of its beginning, middle, and end this isn't the case - we have only sampled a portion of the middle, even if it seems a wholesome one. A true work of art is immortal (which is what triggers fan-fics and the like).
When a person writes a story he can never cover all ends. Every time he completes one area of the story then he leaves the "completing" part incomplete itself (I hope I'm not babbling senselessly now. Please let me know if this makes any sense)...
However, this kind of "work of art" would necessitate an author who was above the rules - which the rules of the story would not apply to in the least. The author of our world we call God. And as is with every form of life or spirit, the only way it can be created is by an entirely independent interventor (I don't consider having baby's creating life. You do not create babies from nothing. The tools are there already and all they need is to be mixed together - this is chemistry - not art/creation.
Bah. Gee, I hope that made sense.
point is Science can expain everything except the beggining and when you think about it, Is there a beggining at all? or is it just an Infinite cycle
Its like a movie but It has no beggining and no end just the middle; because you can never calculate the beggining unless you go by my theory then you can state the beggining for us is the birth of the 3-d from the 4-d and leave it simply at that, but there can still cannot be and end to this movie becuase where does all the "stuff"/matter of an entire universe go
Bah. Gee, I hope that made sense.
yeah it made sense, especially the part about the babies finally someone said it, sure its great but its not really a miracle
What the hell is anti-matter?
anti matter is the stuff that makes up the "Anti-Universe" :D, its like positive and negetive particles that are exactly equal except for their charges, like neo and smith neo was the positive and smith was the negetive and in the end neither one of them really won over the other because they both died (cancelling each other out) I'm not gonna defend Big Bang cuz I don't really care how it all began.... and we're all very familiar by now with my opinion about God. Still, I have a couple of questions for you.
First:
The past is certainly debatable, but the future is totally open. What happens to God if aliens do actually exist? Did He make them too? How does your religion deal with this? (I'm not being irreverent, just genuinely curious -- this is one aspect of religion I haven't had personal experience with)
Second:
Why is it that you believe we are smarter than animals? Define intelligence. (we covered this on another thread, but it was under a different context) I am first & foremost a scientist, so I am not likely to randomly attribute human characteristics to non-humans (that's called anthropomorphizing), but I do know that animals "feel" things -- they exhibit behaviors that aren't directly related to the physiological necessities of life or the maintenance of life.
Emotion: A mental state that arises spontaneously rather than through conscious effort and is often accompanied by physiological changes.
Can you really say that animals don't have spontaneous reactions? If so, please explain in some detail. (My dog is standing by as a rebuttal witness)
Humans ARE different than animals, but what sets us apart? Can you define it? BTW, this is not something we're likely to be able to answer definitively, as it is an ages-old question that REAL geniuses have chewed over & not solved (what makes humans human?) -- but it's something that should be considered when you run down that path of humans being superior to animals. Ok why are we more intelligent that animals, i'll tell you why...
Animals have a reapeted way of life, they do not progress in any way, seriously look at us humans we have developed so much and mostly to the better, we can educate oursleves, I mean you might be right maybe animals are just as smart and maybe theyre just waiting for us to destroy the whole world so that they can take over the planet and spread all over earth, but maybe your worng, I belive most animals have no purpose for us, but they can co-exist with us, overall I think we are smarter than animals otherwise we would be living in a mutli-species world....right?..... Originally posted by Tempest01
I'm not gonna defend Big Bang cuz I don't really care how it all began.... and we're all very familiar by now with my opinion about God. Still, I have a couple of questions for you.
First:
The past is certainly debatable, but the future is totally open. What happens to God if aliens do actually exist? Did He make them too? How does your religion deal with this? (I'm not being irreverent, just genuinely curious -- this is one aspect of religion I haven't had personal experience with)
Second:
Why is it that you believe we are smarter than animals? Define intelligence. (we covered this on another thread, but it was under a different context) I am first & foremost a scientist, so I am not likely to randomly attribute human characteristics to non-humans (that's called anthropomorphizing), but I do know that animals "feel" things -- they exhibit behaviors that aren't directly related to the physiological necessities of life or the maintenance of life.
Emotion: A mental state that arises spontaneously rather than through conscious effort and is often accompanied by physiological changes.
Can you really say that animals don't have spontaneous reactions? If so, please explain in some detail. (My dog is standing by as a rebuttal witness)
Humans ARE different than animals, but what sets us apart? Can you define it? BTW, this is not something we're likely to be able to answer definitively, as it is an ages-old question that REAL geniuses have chewed over & not solved (what makes humans human?) -- but it's something that should be considered when you run down that path of humans being superior to animals.
well supposedly he she whoever created everything so i think alians are part of the collective "everything"
I for one dont believe we are necesarily "smarter" than animals, its just that we happened to evolve with "hands" and aposable thumbs so it just so happened we could manipulate our enviorment so we developed tools to make things easier and so on till the state we are in today, take whales I for one certainly dont believe we are "smarter" than their are their brains alone are larger a person but they didnt evolve with any appendages that could manipulate enviorment if so whales might possibly have created civilization and so forth
it only makes sense that animals have emotions if they didnt every dog or cat you see would behave much the same, all animals of a species are born with the same instincts but develop different emotions depending on those around it ect.
to architect there are no multi species civilizations on earth because of like i said above humans are the only species with hands plus apposable thumbs First of all, I would say that animals (and by this I am generalizing & actually mean all non-human, non-plant life) do progress..... consider what development has done to the environment, and how animals have adapted. Some have died off, yes, but others have learned how to exploit the changes, same as we do. In fact, many of them present a problem for us, they have adapted so well.
But let's talk about animal intelligence for a bit. Only humans use tools? Many species use sticks to fish out insects or other prey. There's a bird that not only uses a twig to pick grubs out of trees, it knows precisely how long of a stick it needs for each particular hole, and will not settle on a twig until it gets one that is the right size for the job. Otters use stones to break open shellfish. There are many such examples in the animal world.
Some people suggest that one of the main differences between us & animals is conscious effort. But there too there's no guarantee: one of my cats loves to play with this toy, a bunch of feathers on a stick. He prefers when we are racing it around the room for him to chase, but he learned (on his own) that if he holds one end of the stick, the feathers do in fact run away from him, and then he can chase it -- for hours. Cause & effect? Maybe the first time.
Learned behavior? Animals have it.
Most of us have heard of elephants mourning their dead, but some other animals do too.... crows are an excellent example. Crows are highly intelligent & complex birds anyway, but they flock & chatter & swoop in an agitated manner when one of their own dies.
Opposable thumbs: um..... opposums, koalas, and non-human primates all have opposable thumbs too. Panda bears even have a funky bone in their wrist that is opposable that works like a thumb. Go to a zoo & study a chimp's hands for awhile. They are amazing.
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I'm not suggesting to you that animals are better than humans either. The only reason I bring any of this up is because it is that way of thinking ("humans are smarter, better, superior") that has created a great deal of environmental chaos in this world. Humans aren't smarter, we're just different. We are capable of abstract thought, and foresight -- we can consider the future. We can consider the consequences of our actions in a more complex way than animals can.
But none of this makes us superior. We are all interconnected; all important parts of the web. Without them, we die too. So, God made aliens too? (hypothetically, of course, if aliens DO exist) What if none of the aliens believe in God?
On the flip side, I'd have to say that if aliens arrived & said, "oh yes, there is most definitely a god," then I'd believe. Er, well, I'd doubt my disbelief anyway. Originally posted by Tempest01
First of all, I would say that animals (and by this I am generalizing & actually mean all non-human, non-plant life) do progress..... consider what development has done to the environment, and how animals have adapted. Some have died off, yes, but others have learned how to exploit the changes, same as we do. In fact, many of them present a problem for us, they have adapted so well.
But let's talk about animal intelligence for a bit. Only humans use tools? Many species use sticks to fish out insects or other prey. There's a bird that not only uses a twig to pick grubs out of trees, it knows precisely how long of a stick it needs for each particular hole, and will not settle on a twig until it gets one that is the right size for the job. Otters use stones to break open shellfish. There are many such examples in the animal world.
Some people suggest that one of the main differences between us & animals is conscious effort. But there too there's no guarantee: one of my cats loves to play with this toy, a bunch of feathers on a stick. He prefers when we are racing it around the room for him to chase, but he learned (on his own) that if he holds one end of the stick, the feathers do in fact run away from him, and then he can chase it -- for hours. Cause & effect? Maybe the first time.
Learned behavior? Animals have it.
Most of us have heard of elephants mourning their dead, but some other animals do too.... crows are an excellent example. Crows are highly intelligent & complex birds anyway, but they flock & chatter & swoop in an agitated manner when one of their own dies.
Opposable thumbs: um..... opposums, koalas, and non-human primates all have opposable thumbs too. Panda bears even have a funky bone in their wrist that is opposable that works like a thumb. Go to a zoo & study a chimp's hands for awhile. They are amazing.
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I'm not suggesting to you that animals are better than humans either. The only reason I bring any of this up is because it is that way of thinking ("humans are smarter, better, superior") that has created a great deal of environmental chaos in this world. Humans aren't smarter, we're just different. We are capable of abstract thought, and foresight -- we can consider the future. We can consider the consequences of our actions in a more complex way than animals can.
But none of this makes us superior. We are all interconnected; all important parts of the web. Without them, we die too.
Curiosity human curiosity specifically is what sets us apart the most its curiosity that drives us to do ceratin things like build planes and preety much to "Invent" anything new
curiosity and language sure animals communicate but not quite as effeintly as direct verbal speech able to tell another directly what to do and not have to have any body motion at all it gets things done much faster
I still do think whales have more advanced communication but yet again without any appendages to manipulate enviorment civiclization cant progress or even begin, we just recently found out exactly how whales "sing" their songs so we are still figuring out their speech which i think may never happen, dolphins are supposedly the next "smartest" species next to humans, so take that dolphin and basically make him bigger and you have a whale with a brain many times larger and what do you expect to get except the smartest species on the planet
(If you havent noticed I think whales are smarter than us :D) Egads, animals communicate in MUCH more efficient ways than humans do! Our method of verbal communication is highly susceptible to misunderstanding and/or misinterpretation, is limited in its range, and besides, it isn't universal. We have no universal language for our species. I suppose that's at least one definitive thing that separates us from the animals! lol
Granted, our technological advances allow us to mass communicate on a scale animals are totally incapable of, but when it comes to efficiency they've got us beat noses down. Body language isn't efficient? I can merely look at my dog in a certain way and he will stop what he's doing. I can point my fingers in a particular manner and he will sit, down, or stay, depending on the cue I've given, even from a distance. Body language is a wonderful way of communicating, and if people were better at it we'd probably have less disharmony. Instead we fuss about, saying things we don't actually mean, hiding our feelings, bluffing with pride & deception. Verbal communication is horribly complicated, and terribly inefficient.
Curiousity falls under foresight (which I mentioned above), but the part about inventing stuff is innovation -- and animals exhibit innovation. I have a good example for you: researchers discovered that crows will drop hard-shelled nuts on a busy road.... and of course both crows & nuts have been around a lot longer than cars have been.
I totally agree that whales are highly intelligent. They are wonderful, beautiful, serene, and very mysterious creatures. It doesn't matter to me how they compare to human intelligence, though.
Please keep in mind that I'm not arguing with anyone, just providing all this as stuff to consider!!!! (now, if we were communicating thru body language I wouldn't even have needed to say that ;) ) In response to all the body-language discussion, do you think that sign language should be considered as a TRUE language?
ASL, for example (american sign language, the most common form of English sign language) is composed of choppy sentances. If one were to write out what they are saying in sign language, it would be barely understandable (if at all).
On a similar note, do animals have a language, or do they communicate solely based upon body language/ "calls"? Originally posted by PsycikPsycho
In response to all the body-language discussion, do you think that sign language should be considered as a TRUE language?
ASL, for example (american sign language, the most common form of English sign language) is composed of choppy sentances. If one were to write out what they are saying in sign language, it would be barely understandable (if at all).
On a similar note, do animals have a language, or do they communicate solely based upon body language/ "calls"?
I thought it was a true language? It meets the definition of a language. But I don't know much about sign language. I do know that when I was first learning spanish & german, the literal translations from language to language seemed choppy to me.
Animals also use sounds and scent. Birds, of course, have a very obvious language. Crows have an incredibly complex vocabulary, despite the fact that most people only recognize the caw. Crows even have regional accents, though they all speak the same basic language, and they also use a great deal of body language. Ants communicate primarily thru scent, but also thru sound. Many insects use both to communicate. But some use body language: bees dance a very complex pattern to tell other bees precisely where to find a food source. In general, animals use it all where they can -- body language, scent, sound. Wolves yip, howl, growl, snarl, (never when they're hunting, no matter what that Discovery show may have voiced-over), they scent mark territories & recognize each other by scent (etc), but they communicate the best thru body language -- for example, the alphas yawn repeatedly to tell everyone the excitement is over, it's time to calm down. It's a very subtle thing, yet extremely effective. Would you consider any of this a language? It too meets the definition for it. ("the communication of thoughts or feelings through a system of arbitrary signals such as voice sounds, gestures, or written symbols")
But, PsyPsy, do you have a response to my question about aliens? I promise I'm not being flippant, I genuinely want to know. I used to wonder how anyone (meaning Christians) could condemn science (you know, the discovery of dinosaurs, the history of the planet, evolution of species, etc) and then use so much modern tech, including medical advances. But I came to realize that it doesn't have to be one or the other.... so the bible states that God created the world in 7 days; is that according to our modern conception of time? No, not necessarily. Anyway, what I'm saying is that I don't need to believe in a religion to want to understand it better. Originally posted by PsycikPsycho
In response to all the body-language discussion, do you think that sign language should be considered as a TRUE language?
ASL, for example (american sign language, the most common form of English sign language) is composed of choppy sentances. If one were to write out what they are saying in sign language, it would be barely understandable (if at all).
On a similar note, do animals have a language, or do they communicate solely based upon body language/ "calls"?
i have to disagree woith you there, PP.
ASL is a real language, and sign language itself is truely a universal language, except with minor variations. although you are correct that the english is choppy, written out signs are understandable. if they are written in a sentence, the only thing wrong would be syntax.
i happen to know sign language, but i am not deaf. if one was to learn it, they would understand where i am coming from.
thats all i have to say Heres my two or three cents.
A long time ago, there was a war between alien races. The peaceful race decided to make a race breed for fighting (Humans.)
The humans would be grown, and live out their ohysical lives on a planet called Earth, (which wa smade by the aliens as well), then they would come back and fight in their spiritual form, for the good aliens. The good aliens leaders name was God, and his General was name Jesus.
We were made to fight....think about it.....humans cannot co-exist with each other...we shouldnt worry about what or who made us, but more worried about what or who, is going to destroy us.
Those were my two or three cents....maybe.....null and void in this forum. Interesting thought, Haxxor...
I agree that ASL SHOULD be considered a true language, but it's not by "officials" and linguists. Quite frankly, that confuses me (as nearly everything does, I suppose). What I'm trying to point out, though, is that humans tend to consider what is spoken only as language and ignore body language, voice fluxuations, and other things that appeal to the five senses.
As far as aliens go, I really am unsure also as to whether or not they exist. If they do, I believe them to be part of God's creation. If He made the universe, and another race is out there, why WOULDN'T God have made it? I believe that everything that exists is part of God's creation, period.
Everything was made in seven days according to the Bible. Whether or not it was seven HUMAN days, I don't know. I've asked many instructors, pastors, and theologians and all give (similar yet) different answers.
I don't think we (humans) ever WILL know these answers until we die, and even then we may be left wondering. when ever someone wonsders if there could be aliens I sayn why not we could not possily be the only sentient species in the ENTIRE galaxy or even the universe, the probability of life starting to develop and evolve is not that low, there HAS to be other life out there at at least the same technological level as us. Apes! Darwin! Apes! Who`s God? We were not created by "God".... That`s my opinion... Humans were created as a direct result of a collective of disconnected concious minds becoming self aware. They realised that a form such as this would find it difficult to procreate, so they devised a way of creating a corporeal form to reside in, and thus the human race was created by it's own intelligence, just like our end, due to our own intelligence, and intelligence brings power, both combined create a will to make that intelligence recognised. Thus, it was recognised by the humans that the all-powerful, all-knowing humans with something to prove. For super intelligent beings, we are ******s. cant make up my mind, it was either purple birds or apes. no just kidding realy though i cant make up my mind between created or evolved frome apes so i will go with either one.
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