Mothers, of The Matrix.

Heres an idea that will really mess with your heads.

Why can't there be mothers, yes you read that right, MOTHERS, of The Matrix?

I'm theorizing here that there could possibly be more than one Mother of The Matrix, are you wondering why?

Think about this for a moment:

The Oracle, she stands for Rational Thought, and Choice. She leaves it up to The One for choosing his predetermined fate, and then lets the future play its self according to why the choice was made.

Persephone, lives off of what those choices that The One, or other humans make, she learns from things, and then acts accordingly. She has no will power of Rational Thought, or Choice, she doesn't care what anyone thinks, except for her own good will.

Combine the two, and you get Rational Thought, and Choice (The Oracle), and Consequences (Persephone)...

Cause, and Effect.

Exactly what the Architect wants The One, or Neo, to focus on.

Opionions and thoughts ?

I really think you might be on to something there. But then how do you combine the two. You think maybe they were one program and they split??

Doubt it. Architect said "mother", which is singular (not meant to sound condescending). Discussion on another thread about who's the real mother though. May wanna check that out :p

Originally posted by Helix
I really think you might be on to something there. But then how do you combine the two. You think maybe they were one program and they split??



Maybe, because remember, The Oracle, is fautly, she doesn't have everything, thats why she's hiding. I think her "other half" is Persephone, without that other half, she's faulty.

Interesting theory, although the Architect did say there was a monther, and not more than one. It could be another subtle detail thrown in by the Wachowski brothers.

1) How can you be sure Persephone is even a program? Please see http://www.matrixreloaded.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1017 . I made some arguments about her not being a program there.

2) If the Oracle is faulty without Persephone because she's half of the whole, why is Persephone not faulty? (This is assuming Persephone is a program :p )

Yeah, and isnt Persephone on the run too, that is why she is hanging with the french guy? So I guess she need the oracle too.

Folks, remember, The Architect refers to the machines as "WE", a singular unit.

Maybe the Architect sees The Oracle, and Persephone, as part of the collective ( sorry to use a Borg refrence here ), thought process, thats why he can't see them as two seperate Entitys.

all of ya'll have a good point but i believe alot of the questions will be answered in the 3rd movie

Originally posted by Araxis
1) How can you be sure Persephone is even a program? Please see http://www.matrixreloaded.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1017 . I made some arguments about her not being a program there.

2) If the Oracle is faulty without Persephone because she's half of the whole, why is Persephone not faulty? (This is assuming Persephone is a program :p )



How do we know she's not? There wasn't any indication that she was or wasn't..

XEHIRUT, LoL... boy oh boy you always come up with the best theories! You never seez to amaze me. how do you comeup with these opinions... its a very good thought. Your opinion can very well be right! Im baking some top ramen... hold on:)

It's all on that thread...

Basically, she said she loved the Merovingian. How can a program love? How can anyone create code to get a program to "love" if humans can't even understand the real meaning/origin/how-it-happens/etc for love?

If a program can design a world that emulates our reality to the fullest extent possible, without us knowing about it, whats stopping a machine from learning how to love?

Cause and effect is something I have posted on another thread but not as in-depth as you have. Persephone lives purely through others experiences and downloaded (like any programne) Neo's Pure love. I agree she only cares for her self, but you are onto something here with the mothers of the Matrix.

I symbolise The Oracle as the nurturer progamne, like letting the fledgling come to her and she gives her take and then lets Neo chose his predetermined fate as she has done many many times before.

Persephone cares nothing but for her ownself, how many times has she downloaded feelings for her own self seeking pleasure.

Now we have cause and effect. Neo has (and she downloded it) want the others didn't Pure Love. Only after she was kissed would she give him the keymaker. Persephone is already aware of what might change so she wanted that kiss.

I belive otherwise she would not have given him the keymaker, sure she wanted to experience pure love, just like any good programne, but that is way she also treated her man with contempt after when they met.

Well, when she says love, I think she just means an attachment, like that her and Merovingian have an attachment and devotion to each other. Remember that they are not just programs, they are part of an AI. AIs cant be intelligent without some sort of understanding of feelings, even if it is only false love. And if you think about it she is a little weird, like when she wanted to kiss neo, i think it was something more than her just wanting to see what it felt like.

If a program can design a world that emulates our reality to the fullest extent possible, without us knowing about it, whats stopping a machine from learning how to love?

Because reality is something that we can define; love is undefinable. You can't just "create" love. Look at Reality TV! All those match-making shows never work because you cannot create "true love." Sure, some stay married for a couple months....

"Already I can see the chain reaction. The chemical precursors the signal the onset of an emotion designed specifically to overwhelm logic and reason. An emotion that is already blinding you from the simple and obvious truth: ..."

Infatuation. They've done studies; it's been proven that your brain releases chemicals to make you think you're in love, just for the sake of reproduction. Which is the only reason why those marriages last even the smallest bit of time.

Like I said: You cannot produce love because we have no rules for it; there are no rules for it, as far as we're concerned, so how can you write the code for a program to love if you've yet to even discover the very basis for love yourself?



Persephone lives purely through others experiences and downloaded ...

I don't understand what you mean by "downloading" feelings....I don't recall anyone saying that Persephone can "download" feelings.

Xehirut is right... if AI can make somthin as complex as the matrix then they can learn to anything....REAL fast!

Maybe Persephone was talking about a different kind of love, the kind of love where the other person is completely devoted to you. That other person is so attached to you that they feel no need for others. That is what Neo has with Trinity and maybe that is what Persephone wanted to experience.

Maybe Persephone was talking about a different kind of love, the kind of love where the other person is completely devoted to you. That other person is so attached to you that they feel no need for others. That is what Neo has with Trinity and maybe that is what Persephone wanted to experience.

Tell me this. What is the difference between the love you speak of and the love I speak of? :)

of course she is tired of Merovingian. They are both bored with each other, now that has human connotations because human beings have a honeymoon period and then everything gets a bit old.

But look deeper, We are talking about cause and effect and the mothers of the matrix. Mothers can be good bad nurturing or self centred, but progamnes need each other, and I hate to do this but I'm going to - think of it being a collective.

Define collective- forming a collection or aggregate, combined. Pertaining to a group of idiviuals (or programnes) taken together.
A collective body. A Communal enterprise.

What would the collective become without the oracle or Persephone? Re read Xehiruts post.

Sorry Ultimate, I am kinda lost about your post!


:D -Helix- :D

Ultimate: Xehirut's theory depends on Persephone being a program. If she's not a program, then how can Oracle/Persephone be a whole?

And I agree with Helix...it was a bit con-furzing :confused:

Oh yeah, Ultimate, I don't know if you got another post I addressed to you, but I need to speak to you. If you have AIM or something please contact me otherwise contact me on PM.

:D -Helix- :D

My AIM: HelixStrand

The Oracle is the mother, its plain and simple.

Why you ask?

When Neo guesses the Oracle as the mother, the Architect says "Please", not because he is wrong, but because that answer is so obvious that its stupid for Neo to even ask.

Its just a trick that the W-Bro's throw in the confuse the "over" believers ;).

Ok,, a program can't Love,,, WRONG..
then you'd also think they can't hate.. or distrust or any other emotion..
Well Smith "hates this place" said when interigating Morpheus trying to get the key to Zion,, in M1

in the animatrix, revolutions part 1.. we see that they can hate,, and kill and trust. we also see in revolutions that they build better AI..

So.. Yes.. Persephone can "Love" and Feel Love. but maybe is trying to gain data on "real love"

Is the Animatrix even out yet? If so I need to go pick it up... I have need of viewing whatever else is out there about The Matrix.

Oh yeah, Ultimate, I don't know if you got another post I addressed to you, but I need to speak to you. If you have AIM or something please contact me otherwise contact me on PM.
origionally posted by Helix on this thread

Hun I have yahoo or msn yahoo is tylard2000 and msn is tylard.

Ok now I got that out of the way, I don't mean that in a bad way .


"Ok,, a program can't Love,,, WRONG..
then you'd also think they can't hate.. or distrust or any other emotion..
Well Smith "hates this place" said when interigating Morpheus trying to get the key to Zion,, in M1

in the animatrix, revolutions part 1.. we see that they can hate,, and kill and trust. we also see in revolutions that they build better AI..

So.. Yes.. Persephone can "Love" and Feel Love. but maybe is trying to gain data on "real love".

well said netorious. I was half asleep when I posted my first 2 on this excellent thread so please try and understand what I was getting at.

Progamnes can love, hate, distain and nuture. Gaining data for an AI is one of its most important needs. Persephone is part of
this AI. Agent Smith hated the Matrix and he is a programne. The oracle gives neo choices just like a mother and she states in M1 about her children in the apartment to Neo. She can nuture and she is a programne.

Persephone is capable of love but wanted to downlaod real love ( the feeling of pure love). she is a programne.;)

I think you bring up a valid point about Agent Smith having the feeling of Hate, in Matrix 1.

That alone shows that machines are capable of Emotion..

All these programnes have also been around after the great AI war, which we also created purely out of our own vanities. Now we have another emotion which is easily idedifyalbe in Merovingian.

Of course an AI programne will have all of these experiences sure they are in human form, but they are programnes at the end of the day.


Now through this one around. Merovingian, might have been one of the first programnes because he represents vanity.

The programs in the matrix MUST be able to feel emotion because they are AI. The Turing test is the basic method for determining if a program has achieved AI. Basically it says that the program can fool people into thinking it is human...that you can not tell the difference betweeen "real life" and "the machine." So even if the programs can't feel "real love" the can approximate it well enough to fool anyone and everyone.

Ok, here is a little theory I came up with that is probably thinking too deeply, but lets see what you think.

The merovingian dynasty existed as a bridge between the classical europe of the romans and the medieval europe of the catholic church. A lot of stories about werewolves, vampires, angels/demons, etc. are from that time, or set in that time. The Merovingian keeps a lot of that sort of program around...here's my big idea...what if he is the actual architect of the matrix and the Architect that Neo meets later somehow managed to depose him in a coup or some-such? The Merovingian knows a lot about Neo and his predecessors, i.e. previous "The One"s. Have all of them had to go through this exiled program? Also, if you buy the theory that Persephone is the Mother of the Matrix then her marriage to the Merovingian/architect makes sense, otherwise there is no reason for her connection to the architect. And it seems like she has pulled stunts like giving Neo the Keymaker previously from the Merovingians "You will be the death of me, woman" comment and her "So is this" just a game comment.

Another thought just hit me. What if the Merovingian and Architect are the same program...or different aspects of it, somehow split like it has been proposed that The Oracle and Persephone were split? That might make more sense than my coup theory...I don't know, haven't thought about that enough.

Well, that's my theory...what do you think?

The architect said one mother but they are split thus making them one mother of the past.

If Agent Smith can "learn" disgust and hatred of being in the Matrix, why can't Pers. "learn" love?