What religion do you affiliate yourself

I was just wondering the religious demographics of this board.
Friendly discussion ensues and please dont affirm your religion as the greatest and best. This is not a free-for-all or flame war.
Intrigue me

NMN

I'm a Protestant Christian. Probably one of the most open-minded of this type that you'll come across. :D I don't look down on anyone with beliefs other than mine; on the contrary, I love finding out more about different views and challenging my own faith. It only makes it stronger, in the end.

To sum things up,

I firmly believe that there is an absolute Truth. Whether or not we are able to fully grasp or comprehend this Truth is irrelevant - it exists. I believe there is right, and there is wrong. There is good, and there is evil.

I believe the road to the Truth is narrow and not easy - but it is the only road worth taking, the only one that makes life truly worth living.

"Two roads diverged in a wood and I -
I took the one less travelled by,
And that has made all the difference."
- Robert Frost

Im Muslim , and im very proud with that .... :)

i'm a jew....i go to a jewish school and most of the kids there don't like the matrix cuz its christian...who cares if its christian??? matrix rocks!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by KEANU Holic
i'm a jew....i go to a jewish school and most of the kids there don't like the matrix cuz its christian...who cares if its christian??? matrix rocks!!!!!!!!

Your friends seem to be missing the bigger picture; the Matrix isn't a 'Christian' movie, it's a fusion of all different types of worldviews. That's part of why I find it so interesting. As the Wachowskis once said, it's a movie about "the synthesis of our finite knowledge of what is with our infinite beliefs of what might be".

Originally posted by Jaiden
Your friends seem to be missing the bigger picture; the Matrix isn't a 'Christian' movie, it's a fusion of all different types of worldviews. That's part of why I find it so interesting. As the Wachowskis once said, it's a movie about "the synthesis of our finite knowledge of what is with our infinite beliefs of what might be".


I spend almost 2 weeks in a topic here trying to convence my friends here that The Matrix is for all religions , and you came with a littel words that explained all what i want to say ....

thanks Jaiden ...

I'm an atheist. I don't hate God, or religion even, I just don't believe in Him/it.

I don't think anyone is wrong for believing what feels right to them. I only think it is wrong when they take those beliefs to an extreme which harms others who simply think differently.

Originally posted by KEANU Holic
i'm a jew....i go to a jewish school and most of the kids there don't like the matrix cuz its christian...who cares if its christian??? matrix rocks!!!!!!!!

It's interesting that you say this. My inlaws are devout christians, and they hate the matrix. Goes to show that misunderstandings can be rampant on all sides.... :(

I'm a Christian. Period. And I love the Matrix. You could almost say it's a vital part of my life, just as much as what I believe (sorry, though, but I DO hold my faith just a notch above the trilogy and matrix-related stuff).

I think it's awesome that so many people from such different beliefs can all love the same movie, and probably for totally different reasons.

:D

I am not apart of any religion, but I am not an athesist. For I believe that there is a god, But I do not believe In him.
I think the whole Idea of religion is based on fear, and that we as humans, our weakest point is that we tend to focus to much on religion, and how it effects our lives.

I seek to find myself within myself, and not myself within god, or god within myself. For I know that If I am able to find true meaning of my life, by myself, and point in directly into me then I know that I will have nothing to fear and live my life in happiness. I do not need to follow the path of enlightenment, because that do is heavily shrouded in religion.

I live by what my morals are, and by what i see as fit and good natured, I dont need a bible or a god to tell me how to live my life.
God and religion is a product of societys imagination, and I know that one day I will die. I dont need to belive in a faith, to relize and accept this.

The Christian/Catholic/Jewish belief that we are all sinners in god's eye, unless we accept the death and ressurection of jesus is bullsh!t.

I am heavily anti-semitic, not proud of it, but I find no place within my heart or body to accept Jews and thier practices.

I do not believe in god. I was raised at school with the Roman-Catholic belief, and was made say a prayer to god each morning. I know the bible quite well, and am aware of it's contents.

Despite of this education I do not believe in him, and have never been baptised, something I am still grateful of. The only religion I can respect, as is Buddhism, or Zen-Buddhism, as it is the only religion, I am aware of, that seeks Enlightenment, rather than force it's believers in believing faulty morals, and fight for it's cause, to get more members, and more power.

I seek enlightenment like Buddhists, but I'm not too fond of the rituals and the whole Buddha figure around it. I just believe I must decorate my life in a way that it pleases me, that way, I believe I will reach enlightenment.

HU

I am a muslim, and I will challenge anyone in the world who is patient and not arrogent to not love this religion after knowing about it fully. I am not against other religions so no offense meant to anyone..........

I dont affiliate myself with any religon, even though my parents were christian im not, i see it as there may bea god or gods but i will not follow any dictorial

i am not usually religious, but buddhists are my favourite one. they are very peaceful, and accept all religions

i'm catholic. but i don't go to church of stuff like that.
i don't realy think that there is a god or satan (heaven or hell). i think after you die. there's nothing

What if i'm shintoist ?

I'll add it for you, Jebulum.

Btw, are you a shintoist? I liked that "Merry ****ing Christmas"-song in South Part, it included Shintoists...

HU

not really, just read a lot about it.

I found religions that only care about humanity rather boring, dangerous and moraly wrong. At least shinto saw divine gods in rivers, mountains, rocks, everything that we really should care of before it gets too late :/

thanks for the contrasting views guys. this discussion could go on forever as more and more people will come and discuss their religion. i forgot to even answer my question in my first post. so i will tell every one that i am agnostic and i am a strong believer in being able to choose my own path. i neither deny nor accept the existance of God or a god. i think religion places too Mny boundaries on a person's life and with my parents being protestant, i find it unnecessary with day to day life. thats my opinion, anyways.

also, who is the other agnosty in here that voted, was it you stalin? i just want to know for future reference

Originally posted by NeoMeansNew

also, who is the other agnosty in here that voted, was it you stalin? i just want to know for future reference

Yes, I voted being agnostic.
I do not say that there is no god at all (i am not atheist) but i do not believe that there substantial amount of truth is what religion is.

I go to this church and give them money and they fill me up inside every time. No, wait, that's not church, it's In-n-Out Burger.

Originally posted by HomoUniversalis
The only religion I can respect, as is Buddhism, or Zen-Buddhism, as it is the only religion, I am aware of, that seeks Enlightenment, rather than force it's believers in believing faulty morals, and fight for it's cause, to get more members, and more power.

I seek enlightenment like Buddhists, but I'm not too fond of the rituals and the whole Buddha figure around it. I just believe I must decorate my life in a way that it pleases me, that way, I believe I will reach enlightenment.

HU

WOW! There is an 'I' in Buddhism after all! Idiot...

he ou, no bad mouting now ! you may be the starter then of a flame war !

i'm not it but you forgot 1 other religion satanist ?

Yeah, OBLh, there's no quality in that opinion.

Buddha does teach "don't take MY word for it, try it yourself & see." The 'I' is not absent from that. The path to enlightenment begins with oneself, and though HU misses one of the main tenets of buddhism (foregoing worldly pleasures to discover inner peace), he is young & has much yet to experience. We don't come into this world knowing everything about everything.

Regardless, he is in no way an idiot for his opinions: they affect only himself.

But why are you complaining? If you're buddhist you've missed the point of the philosophy entirely by making that statement, and if not you have no room to judge.

I am not a Buddhist, as I stated before. I just see nothing wrong with "pleasures". If you want to know more about Buddhism, I'm not the authority you should ask, you should ask a Buddhist.

And I'm not an idiot, we both know that. Now let's get back on topic, and leave OBLH in his little own reality, in which he can freely exercise his ageistic believes.

HU

//edit
he is young & has much yet to experience

Both are unconnected. I have much to experience, and I look forward to experiencing "life", but some people are old, and have never truly experienced life, only lived. :)

but some people are old, and have never truly experienced life, only lived. :)

Gonna disagree with this cliche, ol' chap..... We all experience our lives, and only those who need to judge others say some haven't or their lives are less worthy. Who can judge the worth of a life except the person living it?

Regarding the other, you have to take my words in context to apply them. Regardless of whether you are buddhist, you did say you seek enlightenment "like" them.... and that was what I was responding to.

*sigh* but you're right, back to topic now. and I'm glad you are able to just let such comments roll off your back. :)

You can't judge your own life, as you would have to compare with someone elses live, which makes it a paradox. Perhaps you are right, perhaps you are not, there is no way to tell :).

I like flowers, so do Christians. Does that make me alike with Christians? Yes, but it does not make me follow Christian believes... I am not harmed by Ou Be Low Hoo's insults, as I pity him for being blind, for being an ageist.

HU

Originally posted by HomoUniversalis
You can't judge your own life, as you would have to compare with someone elses live, which makes it a paradox.


Well, actually I don't see this as being fully representative of the picture. Not all of us need to compare ourselves to others to know we are satisfied with what we have. It is possible to just know. It is nice to free oneself from that cycle, actually. Difficult, too. I haven't entirely. I try to recognize it though, when I'm judging my life based upon how I think it compares with others.....

------

about the "he is young" comment... I'm not sure why anyone is so sensitive about this. In context, this doesn't diminish you or negate your experiences in any way. As with all things, we know more about ourselves the older we get/more we experience. It's a constant process, and not one to ignore or deny. I see the truth in it when people older than *I* make comments about how perceptions change with age. That doesn't mean I can expect a fundamental change in ME, but that the passage of years does bring with it new thoughts & ideas & understandings. For example, it's possible that as you get older you will have more acceptance for the "rituals" of buddhism, considering that the basic philosophy appeals to you. And that is all I meant.

This IS connected to your age AND to your experiences, btw -- the teens & twenties are a very important time for being self-centered & self-involved, to formulate & solidify the identity. It's a natural (and documented) time of human development.

I wasn't trying to sound self-centered our self-interested at all. I only meant to imply that I try to make my own life better. However, as you probably know, one is never complete withouth a partner, and I will try to make my partner have a pleasurable life as well.

I come here for my amusement, and to reach "enlightenment", I'm not here to hear some grumpy person whine about how I'm too young to learn, simply because he finds it neccesary to compare himself with me.

I'm different, not better, just different, and how much I like discussing me ;), let's get back to Religion...

HU

Egads, HU!!!!! I didn't mean you were being (negatively) self-centered!!!! :(

hmph! nevermind....

yes, back to religion!

Originally posted by stalin6025
Yes, I voted being agnostic.
I do not say that there is no god at all (i am not atheist) but i do not believe that there substantial amount of truth is what religion is.

i thought it was you by your first quote, and all i wanted to do was make sure people know what they are saying and when they say they are christian or jewish that they know what those religions are, and not be utterly blinded by the fact that one's religion is superior and others inferior. i brought this topic up because i remember malak blatantly confirming his religion and saying others were if not for a better wird, stupid. i have actually give my indifferent beliefs much thought and i found myself thinking it was a little too convenient for an all-powerful being to just magically createa world.

these are jsut my beliefs and dont reflect any others. that is the beauty of religion, it self-adhering.

I cant do that

i'm not none of them

i'm a pagan

4 more info look on the internet plese. i'm not ver good at explaining

With Pagan, I presume you mean Wicca, so I added that one. If you are not a Wiccan, and you mind calling yourself a Wiccan, give me the name of your religion, and I'll add it.

Welcome to Matrix Mania, btw :)

HU

im none of these, im christian,
dont no how many christians r on this site,
actually i havent been in to religion for a yr now just started doing it again on friday.

thanks

we are not actually wiccan but i'm still going to vote :)

wiccans are pagan but not all pagans are wiccan same as all catholics are christians but not all christians are catholics.

Thanks again

You're welcome :). The only pagan religion I am familiar with is Wicca, but I guess that's just because I'm not really into that kind of stuff. Anyhow, I'm glad I could help.

It seems we have a pretty diverse public here, with the atheist leading with an impressive 4, and with three agnostics.

Hmm.. I don't think the pope will like this poll much, though :D.

HU

I will not vote in this poll, because I am anti-organized religion. I agree with Marx that the key issue is unequal distribution og resources, and believe that organized religion is simply a facade. Notice I say organized religio, and not religion in general. If you worship by yourself, I do not agree with your views (probably), but everyone needs something to believe in.

wicca are good wiches aren't they ?
there are so many more religions.
i am catholic, but i don't go to church. i'm not even sure of there is a heaven or hell. i do thinkt here is something but don't know what.

it also would be fun to believe like the 'old people' to believe in many gods (like the greeks and romans or the vikings or egyptians)

Originally posted by HomoUniversalis
Hmm.. I don't think the pope will like this poll much, though :D.

HU

that would be a fact and since some people are polytheistic or pagan maybe, HU, you could add that onto the poll

and for DMR, i put protestant up there thinking most non-catholics would say that, but i was wrong so again, HU, you could just add plain old christian to the list

Well, I added the Christian, although I doubt there are many movements that are not protestant (Hugonut, Lutheran) or Catholic, but that might just be me.

Pagan and Polytheist are not religions. Polytheist is simply a name for a system with more than one god. In that case I could also add monotheist, which would apply to all Christians and muslims.

Pagan is a "curse"-name for non-believers in the Catholic religion I think, and is not a real religion, again, I think. So if you are a pagan, without being a Wiccan or anything, but a real pagan, tell me, and I'll add it :).

HU

hey thanks HU, and i enjoyed the "good ol'" that you added to christian and you are right about the protestant thing, many are protestant but dont know it and they just say christian, but its cool, no worries

and about the polytheism, i was just suggesting to appease people so they dont say "hey, what about me?"

just having fun

Pagan is a real religion HU. It is like christianity in the way there are different branches. within paganism there are many different traditions including wicca, druidry, asatru etc. If u want more info the pagan federation have good basic stuff. The address for the website is www.paganfed.demon.co.uk.

have a look at that it might prove useful

Hmmm... according to HyperDictionary.com, Pagan (a person) means:

Definition:
[n] a person who does not acknowledge your God
[adj] not acknowledging the God of Christianity and Judaism and Islam

I was aware of the first translation, but I guess the second one is valid too, however this means paganism is not a religion, but more a name for everything not Christian, Islamic or Judaistic (sp?). So I don't think many people will actually call themselves Pagan, more likely a practitian of Wicca, or Druidry, et cetera.

HU

PS. Your link doesn't work. I tried to remove the www., but it lead to a 404 as well.

There are ****loads of pagan gods tho, from celtics to irish including greek, egyptians, etc.

You can venerate Thor without being a wicca.

Buddha's a baaad ass, Jeebus is a saaad ass...Mohamed's a prophet and I muthaphucking know it. ALL.

I love me.

The true path to enlightenment is led this way...

This is my recipe, but your all welcome to it...

Take a spoon-full of Taoism(pronounced 'Daoism', HU - you're welcome!)
Add a cup-full of Buddhism
Mix with a pinch of Maori mythology and Celtic druidism
Stir gently while adding little round cubes of Hinduism
Add salt water(from the sea...)
Gently simmer for 5 minutes...
Place in any available Ko Te Kore for a gestation period of a day.
Serve when ready...

Enlightenment for everyone! Woo woo woo!

Thank you, Ou Be Low Hoo. Frankly, I had expected it to be pronounced with a hard "t", but I guess a "d" is much better, when pronouncing it in English.

Again, thank you, Ou Be Low Hoo. I'm glad people like you excist to teach me the finer arts of pronunciation.

HU

Originally posted by HomoUniversalis
Thank you, Ou Be Low Hoo. Frankly, I had expected it to be pronounced with a hard "t", but I guess a "d" is much better, when pronouncing it in English.

Again, thank you, Ou Be Low Hoo. I'm glad people like you excist to teach me the finer arts of pronunciation.

HU

You didn't need to thank me! I already said you're welcome!

Now the serious bit...

I told you before about SPAMMING, but I think the warnings aren't getting through to you. We members of this site do not tolerate spam and it simply has to stop. If you have any further questions regarding pronounciation please feel free to PM me or create a thread about it. Going off topic is a breach of the rules and is considered SPAM.

If I bear witness to any more of it from you, the consequences may be severe. Consider your self warned HU...don't make me have to ban you for any more SPAM.

Xianity was invented by Socrates...he dictated it's basic outline to Plato. Their plan was to pull the biggest con ever...it seems to have worked. I have no proof, but it's true.

You are ALL very welcome.

If you have a problem with me, pm the admin, Neo or Valasher. I do not appreciate you sense of humour. - HU

I'm a Christian, but I think Protestants and Christians are the same, but I don't think Catholism and Chritianity is the same, although it is based on the same religion, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Catholics think that the path to Heaven is in being and doing good, and knowing the Bilble. I grew up in a Catholic church, but I transfered to the good ol' southern Baptist church.

Originally posted by Malak
I'm a Christian, but I think Protestants and Christians are the same, but I don't think Catholism and Chritianity is the same, although it is based on the same religion...


Quite true, IMHO.
Yes, earlier I referred to myself as "Christian" and not "Protestant," but in my mind, that's what I'd rather be. If you go by what church I'm a member and all that garbage, then yes, I'm a Protestant. Still, I'd rather classify myself as "Christian" above anything else. By using the "Protestant" category, it seems to say I'm concerned with formalities and whatnot rather than the faith itself. Personally, I dislike ALL denominations. All seem to corrupt the Faith in some way. Can't win them all, though.

if u r talking to people that aren't into paganism then you would say "i'm a pagan" like i said to you but if you are talking to experianced pagans then it is different. Say if i was talking to my friend daniel who is a pagan i would probably say i'm a wiccan for example.

Well, since I am an atheist, I am a pagan as well. However this does not mean I actually believe in anything, just that I do not believe in the standard, Christian, Islamic or Judaistic belief.

Most people will, when they refer to Pagan, mean a belief in nature, in a "Holy Mother" (Mother Earth), but this is not the exact definition of pagan, that was the only thing I was trying to make clear.

HU

Edit://Malak, didn't you leave because of me? Darn, I chase away a member for the first time in my life, and he doesn't really go.. :(

I personally follow one supreme truth. Whether god exists or not is irrelevent in my truth, as it's useless to argue the point.

My first truth was best explained by a dilbert cartoon

Dogbert asked, "do you see time as a sequence of discrete events or simply a line of perception through infinite possibilities?"

for me the truth is a line of perception. I believe that I control my past present and future, and only by escaping the "box" can you subconsciencely control your reality. I guess it would be similar the Matrix but in the end you control everything that happens.

Death may be the only escape to the next level, and unfornunately I have about 60 years until i find out.

tell me what you think of my truth, honestly.

Cogito Ergo Sum. Nothing can be if we do not exist. If we do not exist, we can not think, if we exist, we can think, so we must think. Descartes formulated it better than me.

Personally, I'm a sucker for reductionism. I don't believe in complex systems of religion, I believe in what my mind tells me, as a true rationalist. I don't believe that I control either my past or my future, since too many people influence me, and I influence too many people for that to be possible.

Mr U

A good quote for that HU is "I think therefor I am" -- Rene Descartes

really to me there are some things that I can definately control and there are things that I simply have no control over and theres no way getting around it, you put your own life into effect but you cant control the outcome

Huh? Cogito ergo Sum= I think therefore I am, I was talking about his explanation around that quote. That sentence was his outcome, his conclusion.

Mr U

id just like to say that hindi is a language not a religion. your thinking of hindu (hinduism) thats what i am.

I`m an Atheist, I dont hate other religions but i just dont believe in God and that kind of stuff. If I had to be something else, I would have choosed Buddhism, Thers no God there.

I would like to say that i have a religon but to be truthfull i would have to say that i dont. We used to go to a prespiterin church.I think no matter what your religon you are speicel.To me the word religon means that i am a great person and i can be or do whatever i want and get whatever i need.

Man, was I retarded. I cannot believe the amount of retardedness that consumed me. I could make fun of myself right now. For one, I said 'just having fun'. I never say that anymore. God, that was weak. Telling everyone I was playing? Sheesh.

Ok, the question still stands.

You seem to go on a whole lot about retardedness lately NMN.
No, this post is not complete spam. I was wondering why "Jewish" was italianated, whatever you call it. Slanted. Is it because we're so special?

Yea, FYM, I was retarded. I know.

The Jewish was ITALICIZED because that is what you voted. Definitely not special.

I'm Catholic, been since I was a wee tot.

However, I don't support much of what I hear and know. I beleive in God, in the way that he made us, becuase I don't believe that we evovled from apes. It wavers a lot. Sometimes I believe strongly in him and will readily pray to him, praise his name, etc.. Sometimes, I need someone to make me believe he is protecting me and my family, because I worry about them a lot and really love them.

Yet, sometimes I just don't think it's possible. I got really depressed once, cuz of it. It all confuses me. What I do know is that when I have kids, I'm gonna give them the choice of whether they want to go to church or not. If they do, I hope they do it because they want to, not because they want to please me.

Yea, FYM, I was retarded. I know.

The Jewish was ITALICIZED because that is what you voted. Definitely not special.
Damn. Does that mean I'm Jewish?

Damn. Does that mean I'm Jewish?
Sadly, yes.

Meh, this is as good a thread to post this in.

Sins. Sins, sins, sins. Bad, right? Priests preach to their sheep that if one does not repent for their sins, one will be damned eternally in hell, as a "punishment." Still, is hell really a punishment? The function of a punishment is to correct the path of the offender. Your kid hits a sibling? Tells you to fuck off? Comes home starting a sentence with the words "She might be pregnant..."? Asks for his insulin? You punish the little bastard, hoping the punishment will deter him from performing such deeds in the future. However, if you're eternally damned in hell, how does that correct you? Rotting in hell for the rest of time does nothing to better yourself. So it must not really be a punishment. In that case, I'll see you all there. Cocktails will be served, the show starts at 11 each night.

Moving on: Free will. "God" blessed us with this, no? If He is so compassionate and loving, why would He give us complete free will? Why should one's free will impede on the life of another? Why should the free will of some drunkard who is too fucking stupid to realize he shouldn't be driving be able to take the life of an entire, innocent family? How fair is that? What sense does it make?

Once again, forgive my dementia. It's late, I'm bored, you know the excuse. I should go eat some more. Thank God, He blessed me with a great metabolism.

First, I am a fond believer of what I like to call 'thereisnogodism', meaning that I believe that God, against popular belief, does not exist and never did exist. This may come as shocking, but I just thought I'd add it as an opener, so you have something to open that can of beer (which I know you are going to drink, TINM) with.

Second, hell doesn't exist. God is just an infinite source of light, knowledge, wisdom and beauty, and if you die, you return onto it. Yep, if God existed, the jews were right, not the christians. Maybe that's why the christians are so pissed off about it, hehe. And if hell does exist, and it is eternal, I seriously doubt God's non-existant goodness, and yes that non-existant was meant to be taken ambiguous and prove of my intelligence and greater intelect.

Free will. According to Genesis, it was that darn Eve who ripped the apple from the poor tree of life (if only she had been one of those hippies that only eat fruit that has fallen from the trees...) and gave it to Adam. Than they got free will and started covering up their private parts.

So there, I gave an explanation on the very things thousands of people struggle with each day, and yet it gives me no true satisfaction because I know that the people who seek the answers to these questions are in fact asking the wrong ones. Where they ask "Oh God, please make my son get his degree!?!", they should be asking "Why the fuck aren't you learning? No degree, no parole!"

This is the basic problem with religion, and something I think G.A.O.T.U could shed some words of wisdom on. You see, instead of looking to ourselves for responsibility, instead of looking to ourselves to what is morally right, and what is morally wrong, we look up to some deity to tell it for us, or we look to some organisation that is running the world to shed us of our concerns. It doesn't matter what I do, the Illuminati is stopping me from getting more money. It doesn't matter what I do, as long as I don't sin, because than I will live in eternal bliss for the rest of eternity.

Which is of course also quite paradoxial. Imagine that I will go to heaven and spend eternity in bliss. If I day one day before you, I will spend more time in this state of bliss. And since it is eternity, this one day become infinitely small meaning that our lives are completely insignificant. If that is true, why does our very existence within heavy weigh so heavily upon our actions here?

It's like telling a kid, if you behave for one minute and not eat that pie, I will give you as much apples as you want.

Because that's basically heaven, isn't it? There is no alcohol, or opium or even sex. It's just constantly sitting next to God. Now, I'm not sure about this, but after sitting next to someone for 20 billion years, no matter how much light he radiates, I still want to get the hell out of there (and yes, again I make wonderful use of ambiguity!).

There they are, several reasons why to convert to Thereisnogodism. Do you have it in you to spit at your god and deny his existence and that of the holy spirit, of whom no one actually knows what it is except that it has nothing to do with spirits or any sort of alcholic beverage for that matter...

Mr U

TING - I like it! You can even pronounce it easily without saying each letter individually! You just hold all the answers, don't you?!

Religion is an explanation for the unexplainable, no? Ancient civilizations were perplexed when they would find their crops destroyed and harvests lost. Why did it happen? They were too stupid to know. So they come up with an explanation - The god of rain. This can be applied to current times, now, too, can't it? We don't know what happens when we die, so we invent a heaven and a hell. Who knows what will come about if and when we ever do find out what goes on in the next life. But you know what I learned through this all? Rap music truly sucks.

Before you ask yourself, Does God exist, you must ask the question, do I exist? If you do not believe that you exist, you have big problems, but if you do then keep reading this post.
One question which inevitably comes up in a discussion of this nature is what is the origin of God? If we conceive of God as physical, anthropomorphic (like man) being, the question of God’s origin is valid.

However, such a concept of God is odd from the following descriptions of God in the Bible:

#1. God is a Spirit:...
#2. ...for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my father which is in heaven.
#3. God is not a man, that He should:...

Obviously, the descriptions of God given in these passages are that God is a spiritual entity. He exists not of the three-dimensional, physical world in which we live, but in a spiritual world. (Heaven)

Another question that comes up is, Who created God?
When asked “Who or what created God?,” we are making the assumption that God was created. If God exists outside of time and space, and if He is the Creator of time and space, He obviously was not created! God began the beginning! This is why He says, “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.”

God created time. The statement of Genesis, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth,” is making reference to the creation of time.
________________

At this time it is easy to make an argument for God’s existence, but there is also more that lead to believe, God does exist.
I am one who believes in Heaven & Hell, God & the Devil. I'm one who went to church and was brought up to believe these things all my life.

Now you must ask yourself the question, Does God exist?

I will answer that in one word with the best of my knowledge thus far in my life: Maybe.

After six years of studying the bible and satanic cults that spawned from it. After 6 years attempting to find but a shred of proof of his existence. I have stumbled on nothing but satisfactory explanations explaining the so-called miracles described in the Bible.

That put aside, you mentioned not being able to prove your own existence. You see, that's the first of physical laws. Cogito ergo sum. I think so I am. Without that law, all other is irrelevant and can not be proven. Sadly, that very law can not be proven either, and if you choose to believe that you do not exist and that the world around you does not exist, there is nothing I can do about it.

Anyway, I never was a sucker for theological discussions. You either believe it or not. There is no evidence whose credibility can be discussed.

Mr U

HU's point is the same thing I was going to say regarding this. The lack of credible sources on the matter that are available. If you make an argument citing the Bible as a credible source, and your opposing viewpoint doesn't see the Bible as a credible source proving the existence of a divine or celestial being, then there really is no argument.

Also, AO, it's not right just to basically copy and paste something without saying where you got it from. There are people who might actually believe that you wrote that up yourself, which I have my doubts about, but whatever's clever.

Well think what you want becuase I wrote it myself. I've had enough people asking me the same thing, as if I could never write something like that. I have read the bible two times already on my third, so I know what I'm talking about.

Sorry to be rude, but I got back from the Orthodontics. They tightened my braces, so in other words my teeth are in pain.

Alright bro, but I've found a lot of the exact same sentences/paragraphs elsewhere. Not calling you a plagiarist, but that's a crazy ass coincidence. Nice writing, however situationally applicable it may be.

None of thee above. I subscribe to a religion called Matrixism whcih is of course based on the movies. It's web site is located at http://www.matrixism.org . Go there check it out. Who knows maybe you'll convert ;)

I let this shit go for way too fucking long. Read the top one, the read the bottom one and note the uncanny similarities. Another one of God's miracles, AO? I don't wanna just come out and say you're a liar as well as a plagiarist, but you're a liar and a plagiarist. Consider this in God's eyes? If it's the truth, why are you lying to "help" spread the gospel? That gives the non-believer mixed messages you see? If I don't believe, and you lie to try and persuade me, that makes me think I'm believing a lie from the get-go....that's pretty interesting if you sit and think about it for a while. This shit should be fucking deleted.

Before you ask yourself, Does God exist, you must ask the question, do I exist? If you do not believe that you exist, you have big problems, but if you do then keep reading this post.
One question which inevitably comes up in a discussion of this nature is what is the origin of God? If we conceive of God as physical, anthropomorphic (like man) being, the question of God’s origin is valid.

However, such a concept of God is odd from the following descriptions of God in the Bible:

#1. God is a Spirit:...
#2. ...for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my father which is in heaven.
#3. God is not a man, that He should:...

Obviously, the descriptions of God given in these passages are that God is a spiritual entity. He exists not of the three-dimensional, physical world in which we live, but in a spiritual world. (Heaven)

Another question that comes up is, Who created God?
When asked “Who or what created God?,” we are making the assumption that God was created. If God exists outside of time and space, and if He is the Creator of time and space, He obviously was not created! God began the beginning! This is why He says, “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.”

God created time. The statement of Genesis, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth,” is making reference to the creation of time.
________________

At this time it is easy to make an argument for God’s existence, but there is also more that lead to believe, God does exist.
I am one who believes in Heaven & Hell, God & the Devil. I'm one who went to church and was brought up to believe these things all my life.

Now you must ask yourself the question, Does God exist?


If you do not believe that you exist, you have bigger problems than this study will entail and you will have to look elsewhere.


The problem here is that many people have a mistaken concept of God. If we conceive of God as physical, anthropomorphic (like man) being, the question of God’s origin is valid. However, such a concept of God is alien to the Bible and to common sense. Consider the following descriptions of God from the Bible:

John 4: 24
God is a Spirit:...

Matthew 16:17
...for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my father which is in heaven.

Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that He should...;

Obviously, the descriptions and concepts of God given in these passages are that God is a spiritual entity. He exists outside of the three-dimensional, physical world in which we live.

When asked “Who or what created God?,” we are making the assumption that God was created. If God exists outside of time and space, and if He is the Creator of time and space, He obviously was not created! God began the beginning! This is why He says, “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

God created time. The statement of Genesis, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth,” is making reference to the creation of time.

Quotes in my post came from:

http://www.doesgodexist.org/Phamplets/Mansproof.html
http://www.doesgodexist.org/Phamplets/WhoCreatedGod/WhoCreatedGod.html

The author: http://www.doesgodexist.org/AboutClayton/AboutClayton.html

AO, if are are indeed John N. Clayton, a profuse apology will be given from my part, but if you say you're still in high school, and live in Colorado, I have problems believing that after seeing Mr. Clayton's picture, address, and some information in other articles on the website I got these quotes from.

Ok ok I believe we have the point down. Let's come clean, and AlmightyOne please refrain from a tempting flame in your next reply. DPD; that was MKultra you just replied to, so we haven't seen AO's answer to your last post, relax.

Now about some of the points here. I understand how it is most religions have abused the idea of God (very nice thesis there HU), but we must remember in the meantime God's true purpose for being there in all religion: a source of strength. Taken right, the idea of a God can be put to very good use answering the big questions in life. I have friends who converted simply because they couldn't stand the gaping hole of uncertainty in their soul a lack of religion creates when considering theology. It also gives folks a rock to depend on when taken right, and I have friends who are very strong because of this pillar. Negative examples like 'Oh God please help us' deviate unfortunately from this intent, but surprisingly I don't see it that much in the religious folk I know.
But, as often repeated, God; along with sadly so many other ideas, belongs firmly in the Belief factor. That means that no amount of reasoning can change a person's opinion on this, and while that's understandable and is in no way a weakness, it has to be clearly separated from logical debate and discussions.

Mac I know I asked for you opinion on this, but it's the principality of this matter. If you or I or any other college student who is a member tried to do something like that in school, we'd fail the assignment, probably fail the class, and might even get kicked out. If he'd have come out and say he took it and given due credit, that's fine...but snapping back at me for calling a bluff when I was right? I took it easy when it came to exposing the façade. Yes, I clicked reply, but I wasn't replying to MKultra, and I'm also relaxed, as was I when I wrote and submitted that post.

Quotes, paraphrases or other forms of 'quoting' shoud be done in either the Quote brackets ([/QUOTE]), or by making a reference.

DPD, it is quite illegal to commit plagiarism. I guess schools just don't like sueing students for it. And since, by the terms of agreement, agreed not to do anything illegal, posting stuff that isn't yours and insinuating that it is yours, is also illegal.

MM does not condone or support illegal activities in anyway, so I'd appreciate it if people refrained to their own viewpoints, and if they decide to include an authority, they make a reference.

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using his intelligence; he is just using his memory." - Leonardo DaVinci

At DGE: Anyone trying to argue God's existance while remaining serious about it, should first prove the validity of the Bible, not referencing to the Bible as if it is the only Truth.

Mr U

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought they can't sue students who plagiarize because they're not using it for commercial purposes. If they were to publish it and make a profit, or win awards or scholarships or something, then I suppose that would actually be illegal, no?

I believe there was some student in Washington state that made a poem for an English class. He copied the lyrics from a Metallica song and simply turned it in like that. Afterwards, his teacher submitted it in for some big award, and it won first place. Before the award ceremony he confessed to copying the lyrics, and I believe he faced some charges for that.

Anyhooooo, that doesn't change the fact that MM strictly forbids plagiarism. AO, if you still come around, don't do it again. Ever. I know for certain this wasn't the first instance of plagiarism from you.

What I want to know is when are they going to include Matrixism http://www.matrixism.org in this poll?

That's pretty strange list of religions and the "Good Ol' Christian" seems very biased. I guess technically the whole list is biased. Can we get a better list?

Hmmmmmm... MKultra, you seem angry. Not just mad angry, but overall angry. "Good Ol' Christian" was meant to be a joke. I'm sorry you don't find the list sufficient. But, you see, in my experience in the world today, I put more religions than are really necessary. I like to think I was a bit generous when I made the list. To put all the religions of the world in one list would be futile, if not huge.

To answer your earlier question, Matrixism was not around when I made the poll earlier this year, or at least I didn't here about it and no one else did. So I might, I just MIGHT, add 'other' to the list, but that and only that. I find it kind of odd that a non-profit religion would link you to Budweiser.

Thank you and good day.

I'm not mad at all I just wanted to see it on the list =D

I think the reason the link to budweiser is there is to make a put down on alcohol as blue pill. It seems like it might also be a put down of major corporations. Anyway, I like it.

MK, if you want to include Matrixism in that list, you might as well include Jedi too, which has been around a lot longer.
I myself am not a Jedi or a Matrixist. I am a good ol'Christian, which I believe is the only correct way to achieve eternal happiness. At the beginning of the thread it was said that we shouldn't advocate our religion as the best or most important.
Consider this: Jesus Christ was and is the single most influential person in the entire history of the world. No armies, no countries, no people, no wars, no dictaors, no kings, no emperors have even reached the heel of His greatness.
And he was just one man. One man.
Coincidence? I think not.
I won't condemn other religions. To err is human. I just believe that the faith that I believe in, Christianity, is the only true one, and if you do not believe in salvation through Jesus Christ, I'm sorry, not to be brutal, but you are definitely not going to heaven OR purgatory when you die.
Why is Christianity the most persecuted religion in the world? People accuse us of not being accepting, but lots of people don't accept us.

Free Your Minds.

-neoizcool

You quite clearly did not understand what I meant over 9 months ago, from my first post.

neoizcool, I'm not going to banter with you, but I don't feel saying I won't be going to heaven for not believing in a man who could have not even lived the life he is portrayed is hardly not professign your religion is better. You're just doing indirectly. 'To err is human' is so demeaning, especially in the way you used it in a religion thread.

Jesus was a Jew.

Actually, Jesus Christ did not influence history the most. This I like so much about the Matrix Trilogy, and it's very often stressed by the Oracle. "The path of the one is made by the many."

Jesus Christ, despite of what you might think, took many of his learnings from his judaistic belief, and from eastern influences. Much of what he said, according to the Bible came from Confucius and other filosophers. Without them, it is quite possible Jesus Christ would never have existed in the way we know him now.

Also, if I would name the most influential person in history, it would be Thales, as he created it in the first place.

Mr U

Jesus was a Jew, but he believed he was God, which is what led the Jewish leaders to want to kill him. And HU, he may have drawn many of his beliefs from judaism, but he was still the most influential person in history.
EVERYONE, except for some remote tribes who still have had no contact with men, has heard of Jesus. Who the heck is Thales? I seriously have no idea who you're talking about.
Jesus was the most influential person. Period. There's no getting around that. Not half of the people who have heard of Jesus have heard of Thales. Hello!?! And if you don't want to see it, that's between you and God. As Christians we are called to witness to the world, and once we've done that, the eternal damnation of each person is on their own heads.
And please don't boot me for expressing my religious views.

Free Your Minds.

-neoizcool

You're still doing it indirectly. You can profess your views without putting anyone else into your reply. I don't care that you love Jesus, but as you said, that's between you and the Buddy Christ.

Don't come in here and say 'eternal damnation'. If God gave me a brain, then I will use it however I please, since there is no restriction ont he way I think. Stop demeaning or degrading other people like it's their fault they aren't Christian. That's what's wrong with Christians, they judge, judge, judge, but when it comes time for their judgment, they cower in fear and get overly-defensive.

Who the heck is Thales? I seriously have no idea who you're talking about.
Jesus was the most influential person. Period. There's no getting around that. Not half of the people who have heard of Jesus have heard of Thales. Hello!?!
Someone who knows more on this please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Thales was one of the original Greek philosophers, if not THE founder of philosophy, being born hundreds of years into BCE times. He was pre-Plato, Aristotle, etc., and I think was largely responsible for education being what it is today. Just because you've never heard of him doesn't mean that he wasn't a largely influential individual in the history of humankind. Just like Bayard Rustin; just because you've never heard of him doesn't mean that he couldn't have been more influential from a behind-the-scenes role than was Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Not trying to step on feelings/ideals/beliefs:
Perhaps the reason so many people have heard of Jesus and not of Thales is the fear instilled into them. That isn't to say that many religious people are not very educated or question a lot, which I know many are and do, but for those that do there are hordes that do not.

The amount of people knowing one's name does not measure influence. Also, biblical studies tell that the figure we know as Jesus Christ is not at all similar to the actual 'Joshua'.

The fact that you have not heard about Thales is to me no suprise, as Christians are not known for their fondness for history (or facts for that matter).

Kudos to DPD. Also, he predicted a Solar Eclipse, one that halted a battle between two armies. This is the first known scripture and thus, the beginning of history.

Mr U

Okay, this has gone on long enough, but I will say this:
It's obvious we're not gonna change each other's minds, so let's just stop.
And, it is people's own fault if they're not Christians, because they won't convert. And you can judge Jesus's influence by the polls up there. 12 people said they were christian, or a denomination of christianity. And only 38 people voted. That's 32 percent. More than any other group.
Beat that, in terms of influentiality, if that is a word.

Free Your Minds.

-neoizcool

Only 30% of the world's population, if that, is actually Christian. "Influentiality" overridden.

That's pretty good, when you consider all the other religions have to divvy up that 70 percent left.

Free Your Minds.

-neoizcool

And, it is people's own fault if they're not Christians, because they won't convert.

Lol, it's also my fault that I hate Machintosh, because I won't buy their computers, and my fault that I hate sour cream, because I won't eat it by itself... So then, what denomination of Christianity would ye be, neo?

It's the fault of tribes in Papua New Guinea, Tanzania, the Congo, the Amazon, etc. for not being Christians even though it's been damn near impossible thus far in history for them to be exposed to the religion? So they're relegated to hell for something they couldn't possibly have been informed about? Ah, it all makes sense now.

That's pretty good, when you consider all the other religions have to divvy up that 70 percent left.

Free Your Minds.

-neoizcool
Well considering there are three major religions in the world, Christianity, being the 30% that it is, which would also mean Judaism would be 30% approximately, and Islam being approximately 30%. The remaining 10% would be for the rest of the religions in the world.
But those figures are for my point and not necessarily right. 30% is not a majority, so I don't believe it's "pretty good".

I think that means they are about equal, if not more influential than Christianity. I don't think many Muslims say Jesus too often, and I'm sure most of them don't know who he is. Muhammed happens to THE most common first name in the world. I think that says something about the influence in the world by religions.

Lol, Judaism doesn't have nearly 30% of the world population. They bes a smaller group nowadays.

Worldwide, there's about 2 billion Christians (1 billion of which alone are Roman Catholic). The next highest religion would be Islam, with 1 billion members. There's about 800 million Hindus, and Judaism comprises of about 15 million people. That leaves about 2 billion people, or 1/3 of the world to other religions. So if any particular religion or denomination takes the cake, it's Roman Catholic and Islam.

I don't ascribe to a particular denominatioin, TINM. And good point with the numbers on Christianity.
And DPD, it's only your fault you're not a Christian if you've heard it. For lost tribes, though, it's not their fault, but they still go to hell. That's why Christians send missionairies, to convert tribes before Jesus comes back.

Free Your Minds.

-neoizcool

And DPD, it's only your fault you're not a Christian if you've heard it. For lost tribes, though, it's not their fault, but they still go to hell. That's why Christians send missionairies, to convert tribes before Jesus comes back.

Free Your Minds.

-neoizcool

Let's use reasoning and logic to breakdown this statement and prove that according to the logic of Christianity itself, that is bullhonkey.

A. God creates man in his likeness and image. We are ALL his children.
B. He has given us free will, allowing us to consciously decide to obey him or disobey him (Adam and Eve).
C. Though we are born in his likeness and image, we are not born with his intelligence. We know nothing at the time of our birth - We can only learn through our surrounding environment.
D. If Christianity is not present in our environment, we have no means of knowing about it.
E. If we do not know about Christianity, we cannot possibly believe in Christianity.
F. God created man in his likeness and image. We are ALL his children.

So, you can see, hopefully, he cannot condemn his own child if the 'basis' on which you say he condemns individuals is fundamentally flawed. Furthermore, since the basis is fundamentally flawed, it must be discarded for all other applications it might have had. Are Jews going to hell? Buddhists? Atheists? Hindus? I believe the more widely accepted Christian view would be "HELL no." If you lead a morally good life, despite your buddhist beliefs, you will still be admitted into heaven.

Actually, it's not my fault. It's everyone who tries to force Christianity on me's fault. They're pushing me away by showing me the hypocrisy existant within it's followers and how they claim to be good witnesses however lead alternate lives which makes me think it's okay to be a Christian and committ many hellworthy trespasses but run to God and say I'm still going to heaven. That just doesn't resonate well with who I am, nor does it resonante well with many people. There are over 31,000 edicts in the Christian Bible, and if you ask anyone, that's pretty nitpicky, and no Christian I've ever met has adhered to all of them. Thus Christians are sending me to hell and going to heaven themselves; that kinda opens the eyes of a heathen to the unfairness imposed by many religions.

We all commit hundreds of thousands of sins in our lives. The beauty of Christianity is that God admits us into heaven anyways.

Romans 10:9-10
"That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."

That's it. We do that, we're Christian. And we get a free pass into heaven.

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

If you believe in Jesus, you're saved; pure and simple. There are no works you have to do to get to it.

Ephesians 2:9
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith---and this not from yourselves---it is the gift of God---not by works, so that no one can boast."

See? Also, TINM, I have to disagree with you on that. That's saying that all roads lead to God, and in this passage it clearly states otherwise.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Judging by these passages, and many similar ones throughout the Bible, it is safe to say that Buddhists and the like, and even tribes in the Amazon who do not know God will go to hell when they die. Is it their fault? No, but when Satan brought sin into the world he brought that too.
And, TINM, if you lead a good life, you will not get into heaven if you do not believe in Jesus. How can you ignore these passages? No matter how good someone is, they are not good enough to get into heaven.
BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO BE PERFECT TO GET INTO HEAVEN.
Only Jesus can make you perfect in God's eyes. If you aren't saved through faith in him, then God cannot look at you, and thus cannot let you into heaven.
And, no you are wrong, the majority of Christians do not believe that you can get into heaven just by doing good works.
In fact, in my view, you're not really a Christian if you believe that, because you're the denying the basic precepts that led to your own "salvation", which is belief in Jesus Christ.

Free Your Minds.

-neoizcool

I'm Roman Catholic officially, but you can't rely solely on the church for your beliefs. You have to take the main ideas of the religion of your choice and apply them practically to your life in a way that makes sense.
One can't rely on Bible verses alone to justify such crucial statements. It's one thing to say Jesus turned water into wine. It's an entirely different thing to say 4 billion people are going to be damned eternally in the fiery chasms of hell over such a controversial topic. It might have worked at the time of the Bible's creation. It may have worked at the time Bibles were first widely circulated with the printing press to a widely uneducated population. However, it will not fly with an educated population that can actually think and reason.

What about the child born with mental retardation? He cannot comprehend the concept of "Jesus Christ," and therefore cannot follow Christianity. However, he IS God. He is a perfect representation of God, created in His image and likeness. Should the child go to hell? We say that God is loving, fair, and just, but if he would condemn such innocent people, then he is not the father we make him out to be. If I am damned to hell for believing that the child has done no harm, let alone enough to be damned eternally in hell, then I'll be planning on having lunch down there with the poor kid.

Furthermore, why would God create someone if he KNOWS that ultimately, in the end, the entity will be lost forever to Lucipher?

After all, religion is merely an explanation for the unexplainable. Perhaps Christianity isn't so popular because it is 'evident that Jesus is the son of God and our only chance for salvation,' but because Christianity is one of the easiest practices of religion. Is it not easier to simply say "I believe in Jesus" and BAM - eternal salvation, rather than dedicating a lifetime of application in Buddhism to hopefully achieve nirvana? It's a fact: The masses swarm to the easiest (or, in Hobbes' perspective, less painful) option.

The Bible is the inspired word of God, as it says in 2nd Timothy 3:16. Look it up. Therefore everything in it is applicable always. Everytime. If you're gonna believe part of the Bible and not the rest, you might as well dismiss everything as fairy tales. You're not a Christian. You're one of those who believe all of everything is good, and that's just not God's view. He says He's right. It's all over the Bible. And if you won't believe that, that's your problem. You're going to heaven, because you've accepted Jesus.
A kid born with mental retardation is going to heaven, because no matter what, even if the gospel is preached to him, he can't accept God. Tribal people on the other hand, can, which is why God commands us to out into the world and preach the Gospel. If it's all good and everyone can go to heaven, then Jesus coming to Earth is entirely pointless.

Free Your Minds.

-neoizcool

Lol. The two situations - the kid with mental retardation and the 'heathens' with no way of knowing about Christianity - are one in the same. What's the kid supposed to do? Shake off his birth defects? No... Yet, he can go to heaven? What are the tribal people supposed to do? Magically think through thousands of years of concepts in order to evolve the idea of Christianity? Impossible. Should they die before these 'saviors,' or missionaries, reach them, they cannot possibly be held responsible for being condemned to hell.

Again, lol. A definition of the bible that comes from the bible. I'm sure if Hitler described himself, the words would be much different than how you or I would describe him. Not to say that the Bible is evil like Hitler; I merely mean to show a difference in perspectives. You can believe in the crucial concepts of the bible, but you can't always believe in the detailed intracacies of it. After all, the books weren't written down until nearly a century after Christ's death. Furthermore, when Constantine ordered his scribes to create the New Testament, there's definitely reason to believe that parts of the Bible were altered and changed to reflect the approvals of the emperor.

If God knowingly creates people that will be damned to hell, then it was pointless. If 4 billion people are going to hell no matter what, then we should not be concerned with their suicides, as they'll end up in the same place regardless.

Stop contradicting yourself. Don't say 'everyone who doesn't believe in Jesus won't go to Heaven' and then go back on yourself and say 'mentally retarded people can though' and then the next post 'oh, also blind and deaf folk can go to heaven' or the 'terminally ill too!'

The Bible contradicts itself multiple times, sometimes even int eh same book. Sure the Bible was inspired by the word of God, but it was written by humans, a fallible bunch of organisms. So you cannot stay here, belaboring your already contradictory point, when your point is not valid. You keep bringing up that the Bible is based on fact. That, my friend, is etremely naive, and I would consider the study of history as a course of studies. The Bible is a very lovely piece of fiction.

Did you know he and Mary Magdalene had sex, multiple times? Mary was the one who found him "risen", but don't you think she was a bit biased? Also, the people she went and told were the apostles, and don't you think they were a bit biased? Don't you think Jesus rising was the kind of publicity they were looking for? Seems like the human race to me, with it's greed and vanity. Christians were being killed left and right during Roman occupation, so to gain a steady following, don't you think it would be wise of them to say he had risen? They could have burned his body so nobody could EVER disprove them.

But see, that's all speculation, because I wasn't there and nobody kept very accurate records. And a lot of things went on unrecorded. That's exactly what the Bible is. Speculation. That's it. Revelations is total bullhonkey, as it was written during the Middle Ages. How the fuck would they know what the Revelations were? You know, damn me to hell for saying this, but I don't think Jesus is coming back. And everyone goes to hell. That sounds fun now, doesn't it?

I believe in Jesus Christ, so that means I get into heaven? Sweet. I mean, the man did exist, however his teachings I can only agree with so far. Golden rule, good vibes, it's all good as far as that is concerned. But seriously, I think it's bullshit that women are supposed to go around ringing a bell and saying "Unclean!" during their monthly menstrual cycle. Additionally, the translation of the Bible we most commonly see today was written by the people in power at the time it was translated. Wealthy, educated, sexist, racist, bigoted, priests. Sure, these were acceptable practices at this point in history, and although social problems we face now remain largely unchanged, oh how TIMES have changed.

And on Mary Magdalene, she wasn't a whore. She was a wealthy, educated woman who made things happen and got things done, was different from many women during her time, and didn't particularly like to take shit from people. I'm sure you know women like this currently, as they're referred to as bitches and whores, but Mary, Mary is a revolutionary if viewed through the right eyes.

And we're STILL all hippies and lameasses for even discussing religion.

He's absolutely right. We should be discussing the Pistons/Pacers game. Now that is what the NBA should be about!

My, my, you're certainly quite cheery NMN.
TINM, there is a difference between the retarded kid and the tribes. For the retarded kid, when the gospel is preached to him, he is physically unable to accept it. For the tribal people, when the gospel is preached to them, they are able to accept it.
Crap happens. People go to hell. We live in a fallen world. God is not to blame for people's mistakes. People make their own choices.
Mary Magdalene and Jesus had sex? I'm sorry, how do you know this? Were you there? Were you watching them? Were other people watching them. As you oh so accurately pointed out (note my stinging sarcasm here) the apostles lied. Why wouldn't people lie about Jesus being fake?
Why is the "truth" of Jesus's Deity being fake more plausible than the "truth" of Jesus's Deity being true If the apostles can lie, why can't other people? Why are people who want to prove Jesus is a hoax so much more honest than the people who want to prove he's real?
Hundreds of people saw Christ day, and many many saw him after he rose. You heathens have been trying out that crap on us for years.
And TINM, I have this to say:
IF ALL RELIGIONS ARE GOOD TO GO TO GOD, THEN JESUS'S DEATH AND RESURRECTION HAVE NO PURPOSE WHATSOEVER.
And don't give me that crap about the Bible being written a century after Christ's death. The Torah, hello???? That was written by Moses, about 5000 years before Christ. And what about the dead sea scrolls? And if the gospels were written a hundred years after Christ's death, how could they be by the apostles? Even back then they didn't live that long.
You can't call yourself a real Christian, though, if you dismiss only what you believe in the Bible. Why do you get to pick and choose what you like and don't like? It's not fiction. It was inspired by God. In other words, when the writers wrote their books, God gave them the exact words to write down. So their is no fault in the Bible. Period.
Why are you the be all and end all of what's true and not in the Bible? Why can't it all be true? And don't give me and crap about, "oh, well, it depends on the person, because it's different for each person, and we should all go out and pick flowers and be happy!"
That's relativism crap. If there's no truth, then you're contradicting yourself because you're saying that it is truth that there's no truth?
Just as you saying that all religion is good. Because you're saying that my Christianity isn't good. When in fact you just said that all religion is good.
Get me, or am I being too deep for you thick-head jerks?

Free Your Minds.

-neoizcool

Mary Magdalene and Jesus had sex? I'm sorry, how do you know this? Were you there? Were you watching them? Were other people watching them. As you oh so accurately pointed out (note my stinging sarcasm here) the apostles lied.

Just a few of the apostles actually knew Jesus. Most of them just heard from other people. In fact, most people who wrote about the crucifixion weren't even there.

Also, the Quran states that Jesus survived the Cross. This is in line with other historical evidence, and I might add that the Quran was never translated. It has remain unaltered for 2000 years. The bible has not.

In any case, I suggest you cut the insults, Neoizcool. You bore me.

Mr U

And don't give me that crap about the Bible being written a century after Christ's death. The Torah, hello???? That was written by Moses, about 5000 years before Christ. And what about the dead sea scrolls? And if the gospels were written a hundred years after Christ's death, how could they be by the apostles? Even back then they didn't live that long.


Whoa, wait? You actually believe the Bible was written during the Apostle's lifetime? I'm afraid you're sadly mistaken, good sir. The Bibles were never scribed until at least a century after Christ's death. They were written by the leaders of the church at the time, the successors and students of the successors of the apostles. Go ahead, google it, prove me right. And I wouldn't be so sure about Moses writing the Torah... Maybe you're right, maybe not. I can't quite remember the truth behind that, perhaps FYM could lend us a hand? FYM? Where the hell are you?

IF ALL RELIGIONS ARE GOOD TO GO TO GOD, THEN JESUS'S DEATH AND RESURRECTION HAVE NO PURPOSE WHATSOEVER.

IF THE MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION IS INEVITABLY DOOMED TO HELL, THEN GOD'S CREATION OF THE MAJORITY OF MANKIND HAS NO PURPOSE WHATSOEVER. Once again, God made everyone in his likeness and image. He gave me the logic and intellect that prevents me from believing such things as what you're advocating. He gave others here the characteristics that prevent them from being able to accept Jesus.

You can't call yourself a real Christian, though, if you dismiss only what you believe in the Bible. Why do you get to pick and choose what you like and don't like? It's not fiction. It was inspired by God. In other words, when the writers wrote their books, God gave them the exact words to write down. So their is no fault in the Bible. Period.

Heh. Inspired. This, is true. They were INSPIRED. That is NOT the same as God telling them verbatim what to scribe. To inspire simply means to influence or guide. Perhaps the Bible isn't fiction, but it also isn't entirely fact. I mean, seriously, man, think! Do you honestly believe "GREAT BOWLS OF WRATH WILL FALL FROM THE HEAVENS ON JUDGEMENT DAY!" Seriously. What the fuck does wrath even look like. And please don't tell me you truly believe in the creation stories.

Why are you the be all and end all of what's true and not in the Bible? Why can't it all be true? And don't give me and crap about, "oh, well, it depends on the person, because it's different for each person, and we should all go out and pick flowers and be happy!"
That's relativism crap. If there's no truth, then you're contradicting yourself because you're saying that it is truth that there's no truth?

It all can't be true simply because of what NMN stated. It was written by humans. I don't care how much God inspired the creators - They're still human. If it was all true, we wouldn't have four different Gospels (and many, many, unpublished Gospels). We would have one, definitive Gospel. Why are none of the Gospel's clear on who condemned Jesus? Was it the Jews? Was it the Romans? Who, precisely, was it? The Gospels make it unclear. Perhaps that's because the Bible was first published for a ROMAN EMPEROR. How could the emperor's scribes publish that the ROMAN EMPIRE condemned Jesus, and then hand that over to the ROMAN EMPEROR. I'm sure he would not be happy with that interpretation of the situation. Just one example of a possible fault in the Bible.

Just as you saying that all religion is good. Because you're saying that my Christianity isn't good. When in fact you just said that all religion is good.
Get me, or am I being too deep for you thick-head jerks?

I never said all religion is good. Satanism isn't good. But if you lead a MORALLY GOOD life, all is well.

Excuse me while I go off to be a thick-head jerk. Sorta like Dad's Root Beer, only I'm a jerk.

I've been yelled at in other websites for expressing my views, so this is nothing new to me.
You say the Quran states that Jesus survived the cross. Whoop-de-do. You can't say that it hasn't been unaltered, because you weren't there when it was first written. The Bible has only been altered to change the wording in different translations, but the message in all of them and the facts are exactly the same.
There you go again, automatically assuming that the Bible is wrong and claiming other books that are just as old as it to be much more reliable than it. That's a double standard if I ever saw one.
I'll cut the insults, HU, but I don't care if I bore you.
Jesus did not survive the cross. You can't survive all that he went through. You wanna try it? BE MY GUEST.
Hundreds of people saw him die. That's in many historical records too. You're just picking and choosing ones that go against the Bible, like I said, and claiming that just because they're against the Bible, they're more reliable.
Here's what second Timothy 3:16 says:
"ALL SCRIPTURE is God-breathed and is useful for TEACHING, REBUKING, CORRECTING and TRAINING IN RIGHTEOUSNESS, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."
Get that TINM? ALL SCRIPTURE. ALL SCRIPTURE!!!
You think it's just coincidence that the Bible has lasted with all the books in this order for 2000 years?
And, yes, I do believe the creation story, because it's in the Bible, and therefore it must be true.
It says God-breathed. Where's your problem, I want to know.
The majority of the population is not doomed to hell, BECAUSE THAT'S WHY GOD ORDERED US TO GO OUT INTO THE WORLD AND PREACH HIS WORD!!!
Buddhists aren't doomed to hell from the start. THEY CHOSE THAT PATH. But if the Gospel wasn't preached to them, you're saying they go to heaven anyways. Not true. Listen to this:
Romans 3:10
"As it is written: There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."
This means that without Jesus we are worthless. Humankind has turned away from Him, and they need him to get to Jesus. So no one can ever lead a good enough life to get to heaven. For God to be able to let you in you have to be perfect, and only Jesus can do that.
And you still haven't addressed the fact that if everyone was good, then why did Jesus come?
Like I said before, the majority of the population is not doomed to hell. Not if we go out and preach the gospel. Once we've preached it, our obligation is done, and their going to hell is on their own heads.
May I ask TINM, if all roads are good to go to God, why you became a Christian? Because you obviously are oblivious to the basic precepts of the Christian faith, and have no idea what the majority of Christians believe.

Free Your Minds.

-neoizcool

Hundreds of people saw him die. That's in many historical records too. You're just picking and choosing ones that go against the Bible, like I said, and claiming that just because they're against the Bible, they're more reliable.

Free Your Minds.

-neoizcool

Show me. Please. Which historical records? Besides the Bible? Because aside from the Bible, there is no written records of his life at around that time. His death on the cross wasn't even recorded, because the Romans only recorded crucifixions when they did them by the thousands (which was quite often), not by the threes.

You ask me to show you historical records of his deaht, I ask NMN and DPD to show me the historical records he always runs to when he's in trouble.
Hey, are there any good Christians out there who can help me on this?

Free Your Minds.

-neoizcool

"ALL SCRIPTURE is God-breathed and is useful for TEACHING, REBUKING, CORRECTING and TRAINING IN RIGHTEOUSNESS, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."
Get that TINM? ALL SCRIPTURE. ALL SCRIPTURE!!!

*sigh* Once again, you're using the Bible to validate the bible. That's like using "happy" to define the word "happy." I'm sure Hitler sang a little ditty that went: "All Jews, homosexuals, gypsies, disabled, and the like are useless and must be exterminated." Hey, he also had quite a large following of that theory. Is it true because HE said it? Absolutely not.

You think it's just coincidence that the Bible has lasted with all the books in this order for 2000 years?

Nope, because it hasn't. The New Testament was not formed until the later part of the second century when Irenaeus choose twenty books from about forty Gospels, another 20 acts of the apostles or so, and a bunch of revelations and epistles to make 'a collection of independant writings.' The Bible didn't even take on its present form until the fourth century, with the Romans, as I stated earlier, and from there it was split even further in modern times. The Council of Trent (around 1500) determined the exact Roman Catholic Bible, while protestants denounce it. The Eastern Orthodox Church further altered the bible and added canons that aren't in the Roman Catholic version, near 1700. The Bible that you're quoting from is, in actuallity, less than 300 years old.

And, yes, I do believe the creation story, because it's in the Bible, and therefore it must be true.

There's so much evidence to prove the evolutionist theory that I'm not even gonna go into that.

Like I said before, the majority of the population is not doomed to hell. Not if we go out and preach the gospel. Once we've preached it, our obligation is done, and their going to hell is on their own heads.

Then for many people, salvation was merely being in the right place at the right time. Good job, God.

You ask me to show you historical records of his deaht, I ask NMN and DPD to show me the historical records he always runs to when he's in trouble.

That's super. Maybe they'll do that, maybe they've lost interest in the conversation. In anywhich case, I (not NMN or DPD) am asking you (neoizcool) to show me where you got that info from.

May I ask TINM, if all roads are good to go to God, why you became a Christian? Because you obviously are oblivious to the basic precepts of the Christian faith, and have no idea what the majority of Christians believe.

Parents, eight years of Catholic schooling, and three years of religion classes through the church. If it's taught me anything, it's that there's obvious faults within the church, and you can't blindly believe every single detail it entails.

Live up to your signature. Free your mind.

You quote that huge long list of how the Bible was altered, but you have no proof.
::sigh:: You disappoint me. Once again you automatically assume that the Bible is wrong and everything that you believe refutes the Bible is true. Picking and choosing your facts from history. In actuality, nobody is alive today that lived back then, so nobody can confirm it.
It is a matter of faith of believing in the Bible. I have faith that the Bible is 100% accurate. You obviously don't, picking and choosing once more.
Picking and choosing, picking and choosing, that's all you do.
There is virtually no evidence for evolution, as there is virtually no evidence for creation. No scientific evidence, that is. Here are two quotes, both by evolutionists.

"We do not believe evolution because it is scientific. We believe it only because the alternative is creation, and that is unthinkable."

"Neither evolution nor creation can be proved or disproved by science."

The second one is soooo true. We weren't around back then. Until we get a time machine there is no scientific way that we can verify these.
Evolution makes no sense.
If organisms evolved over millions of billions of years, they wouldn't have time to reproduce before they died out. Fish with gills walking onto land and surviving for another million or so years? How could they? They were just breathing water. And the offspring would be sterile, so they wouldn't be able to multiply. In all experiments today, when two different species have been combined, without any outside scientific help, the offspring have been sterile.
And while I'm at it, abortion is wrong, too, according to the Bible.
You say I quote the Bible to prove it's correct. If you're a true and proper Christian, that should be enough, but obviously you are neither.
It's not God's fault that Satan came and brought sin into the world. It's Satan's fault. That's like people blaming society because somebody kills somebody else. Not society's fault. Society influenced that person, but the final decision to kill was made by the person himself. There was never a point where somebody forced him to kill someone else.
And you still have not addressed the fact that Jesus coming to Earth would be pointless if all was good.

Free Your Minds.

-neoizcool

God is dead. Jesus isn't coming back. That is all.

It is written, let it be so.

You quote that huge long list of how the Bible was altered, but you have no proof.
::sigh:: You disappoint me. Once again you automatically assume that the Bible is wrong and everything that you believe refutes the Bible is true. Picking and choosing your facts from history. In actuality, nobody is alive today that lived back then, so nobody can confirm it.
It is a matter of faith of believing in the Bible. I have faith that the Bible is 100% accurate. You obviously don't, picking and choosing once more.

There's written documents of the Council of Trent and that the Roman emperor ordered his scribes to create the first bible. I'd say there's much more physical evidence that supports of altered instances than of evidence that supports it's entirely true. I do not assume that the Bible is wrong, I conclude that the Bible is most likely wrong in certain areas through historical data. I pick and choose those facts which are unbiased. Of course the Bible and Christians will tell you that they're right, and their enemies of course will tell you that they're wrong. The only way to figure it all out is through unbiased facts.

There is virtually no evidence for evolution, as there is virtually no evidence for creation. No scientific evidence, that is. Here are two quotes, both by evolutionists.

Precisely. That's why one must make their conclusions based on the probability derived from what we know.

As someboody, I forget who, pointed out ealier, the Romans hated Jesus. Why couldnt' they lie? Why couldn't the council of Trent lie?

Free Your Minds.

-neoizcool

I've got to say that you guys need to chill a bit.

There is no way you will change each others minds, so getting personal won't change anything. There are historical documents that prove Jesus life, and do back up alot of the biblical accounts. The writings of Josephus for one.

Neoizcool, I admire your boldness but you need to temper that with a bit of tact. Burn in hell preaching will only alienate people, making you and christianity appear unaccessible, exactly what you do not want to achieve.

You other guys, go easy on the new kid, he's overstated his point, i agree, but at least he's passionate about what he believes in.

The Roman's hated Jesus until Emperor Constantine came to power. He was the emperor that ordered the first Bible to be published. He was the emperor that instituted Catholocism as the religion of the empire, over the Roman's previous pagan religion. Why the hell would there be false papers documenting the creation of a Bible.

The real question is why WOULD the Council of Trent lie? And about what? Are you suggesting there was no Council of Trent? Or are you suggesting they just spent all the time and resources to get all the major bishops of the time period to the city of Trent and conjure up false documents saying they changed the Bible?

EDIT: I'm not getting personal. I just have several hours to kill before I go out for the night. Why must Saturday afternoons be so boring?

Before I start, I would like to ask you to address the question of why God sent Jesus if everyone was good anyways.
Next, I would like to say:
Okay, I am frickin' sick and tired of this.
Our arguments are bouncing back and forth when the truth is that neither of us truly knows what we're talking about. As I said before, it is all a matter of faith.
No matter how many "facts" I present, you will never believe me.
No matter how many "facts" you present, I will never believe you.
Swampy has a point. We're not going to change each other's minds.
There are historical documents that prove the Bible correct.
There are historical documents that prove the Bible incorrect.
Neither of us knows for sure which ones are correct and which ones are incorrect. So I suggest we both just drop it right now.
It's a matter of faith for both of us.
NEITHER ONE OF US CAN KNOW FOR CERTAIN THROUGH SCIENTIFIC AND HISTORICAL PROOF THAT THE OTHER PERSON IS WRONG.
And please don't come right back at me and say, "Yeah, well, there's more "historical evidence" supporting Bible is wrong than Bible is right."
If you do, this argument will start all over again.
Also, please don't think that I'm avoiding the issue. You have not won the argument simply because you posted the last question to me.
So, answer the question at the top.

Free Your Minds.

-neoizcool

Beats the hell outta me. Perhaps if I did some more homework on it I could find an answer that I find satisfactory, but it's too late for that now. Now it's time to go to see the Spongebob movie. Why? Because we refuse to see Alfie.

'Twas a fun discussion, though.

I wouldn't call it fun. It was interesting.
But what the heck: who cares.
I myself want to see Polar Express.

Free Your Minds.

-neoizcool

Someone mentioned my name 15 posts ago?

I particularly liked this one:
(Disclaimer: neoizcool's quote paraphrased by DPD)
Picking and choosing, picking and choosing, that's all you guys do.

In response: Are you not choosing to accept the Bible as God's word and picking that as the (your personal) truth?

Additionally: You say the Bible was "inspired by God"...there are movies "inspired by" books, etc., where things are changed, and there's thousands of years of the possibility of human error in storytelling and/or translation that one must account for.

Finally: I'm not here to knock anyone's religion. Whatever personal truth anyone chooses is most likely fine with me. However, being told you're going to hell or wherever just because you don't make the same choice as someone else regarding religion is never fun. No Muslims, Catholics, or any other religion are knocking anyone else here. I'm not telling you that you'll never enjoy a beezy-filled paradise because you're not a member of the Nation of Thizzlam. Sure, I understand that most Christians they were put here by God to spread his word, and warn nonbelievers of the consequences of their lack of faith in your God, but you act like none of us have ever heard this exact same sermon before. Previously you said that heathens only needed to hear it once, then after that you were absolved from responsibility for our souls or whatever. Well, I guarantee you than most everyone has heard very similar witness as yours before, and you've stressed many of the same points multiple times, so the question is begged, "what's up with that?" I commend you very much, though, for being a Christian of conviction rather than one of convenience, as it can be, at times, a hefty task. However, I've got friends in both places and must be off to continue my own spiritual journey in concordance with my own ideals and practices. Good evening to all.

Good for you DPD, but remember: just because you don't choose to accept it means it's false to you.
There are universal truths.

Free Your Minds.

-neoizcool

And this type of thing is exactly what I just seemingly, after reading your post, explained in my previous post. Absolutely disgusting.

Call it what you want, DPD. It's between you and God now.

Free Your Minds.

-neoizcool

I could debate you and show you several inconsistencies in the bible with official, recognized historical evidence, but I have seen Christians denying the holocaust, so I won't even go there.

In any case, believe what you will. You have done your christian duty to attempt to convert us, and our blood will be ours.

I would like to say that I believe TINM put forth some great arguments there, with some very detailed information. Your rock, dude! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v75/HomoUniversalis/bows.gif

Mr U

I tried to bury it but you just dug it up again, so here we go.
"Official, recognized evidence" is a euphemism for evidence from people who are refuting the Bible. As people pointed out, the Bible came from many different sources, and was not inspired by God. This is not what I believe, but if it is what you believe than you have to take them as 66 different historical pieces of evidence.
Again, you're just refuting the Bible, when it is in fact a historical source. There are millions of scientists who agree with what it says, and they're Christian. There are millions of scientists who disagree with what it says, and hey, big coincidence, they're not Christian. The truth is it's a matter of personal bias every way.
WHY ARE PEOPLE WHO REFUTE THE BIBLE MORE CREDIBLE THAN PEOPLE THAT AGREE WITH IT?
Why are you, HU, allowed to call these people recognized historical sources? I don't recongize them. Millions of Christian scientists don't recognize them. Why are we wrong? Why are people who refute the Bible more credible than people who advocate it? You might saw it's because we have a personal bias for the Bible. I say people who refute it have a personal bias against it.
Personal bias either way.
And TINM, maybe you should ask yourself why God sent Jesus if everyone was good. Seems to me you keep on evading the issue. The argument's on again, so go ahead, answer me.
That's one of the good points I've made that people have refused to address. Another is the fact that the Bible must be made up but anything against it must be true.
Bias, bias, bias, HU.
And saying the Holocaust doesn't exist is just stupid. Don't clump me in together with Christians who deny it happened. There are people from other religions, and atheists, who believe this too. Don't put that belief on only people in the Christian category.
There are stupid people in this world. I won't go below the belt and say that HU, TINM, and DPD are some of them. All three of you are very smart. You argue your points well.
I just have faith in Jesus, and shake my head sadly at your ignorance.

Free Your Minds.

-neoizcool

OK, before this gets totally out of hand can I just quote what NMN said in the very first post of this thread.

Friendly discussion ensues and please dont affirm your religion as the greatest and best. This is not a free-for-all or flame war.
So can we just drop this and agree to disagree.

I tried that Eon, but DPD and HU both dug it back up again, as I said in my post. And I am kind of interested to hear their explanations of my two main questions at the bottom of my post. TINM can answer if he wants, but since he dropped it when I asked, I respect him.
I'm sorry if I insulted anyone before. I can get pretty riled up when people say that all religion is equal.
Hey, where is PsycikPsycho? At the beginning of the thread she said she's a Christian. Are you a Christian like me, PP, or like TINM? If you don't want to get involved, just say so, and I'll drop it, though I would appreciate some help here defending Christianity if you believe what I believe.

Free Your Minds.

-neoizcool

And I am kind of interested to hear their explanations of my two main questions at the bottom of my post.

Well lets face it, I'm not interested, I've watched this thread head closer and closer to a flame war for a while and I'm tired of it.
DPD and HU presented their arguments and so have you now and so we can all drop it and go for a beer at Kara's. Anymore flames, or anything close to flames for that matter, and I will close this bloody thread, intersting though it can be.

You can close the thread if you want; I don't care.
This isn't a flame war. When it becomes one you can and should close it.
Right now we're expressing our views on the subject and stating facts and asking something of the other.
I haven't seen flames yet.
So answer the questions DPD and HU.
Eon's getting mad at us, so answer my questions in the thread under the culture category: Christianity Discussion

Free Your Minds.

-neoizcool

At this point the only thing being discussed here is how every one likes to argue about everyone arguing about what religion is correct or incorrect and how no one can get along. so how about we all start over and have some respect for on another.

The Matrix is full of different religous afilliations from budda to Christ to krishna to what ever. If this movie that brought us here can find someting similar between all these religons, then we should find something to agree on.

No one ever talks about how hinduism is seen in the matrix, how about that. I just got done reading the bhagavad-gita and it sounds just like a lot of what morpheus tells neo in the first movie about FREEING YOUR MIND and or how to. it talks alot about self dissiplin and meditaion and how we live in a prison.

Im Jewish but I beleive that if there is a messiah that it has to be Christ. So one could call me a Messionic Jew.

You call me ignorant?

The Quran, which has never been translated (opposed to the bible, who has been translated 3 times) states Christ survived the cross. Historically, the Quran is much more reliable because of that than the Bible.

Also, experts at Greek and latin have pointed out that either language can be interpreted in many ways, and that many of the interpretations which came with the second translation where simply not correct.

It has nothing to do with Bias. It has to do with interpretation. I do not claim to know what happened 2000 years ago. I only know that the Bible probably is not correct, as it bold claims do not match on several other occasions.

I did not generalise the claim that all christians deny the holocaust. I simply stated that some christians deny the holocaust, and thus christians are capable of denying the holocaust. Thus, I noted that you were capable of denying it, as you are, as you stated a christian.

Perhaps the Church did not explain logic correctly to you.

Actually, ChalfantMT, that reference has been made. The Matrix, a collective of human minds can be seen as Maya. It is indeed an interesting perspective on the Matrix.

Mr U

Actually, thanks Eon for getting involved. She is absolutely right. Neoizcool, the argument was over and DPD was going to leave quietly, but you just had to have the last word. You just had to. You know what I would equate this argument to? Arguing about who is going to die first.

"I'm gonna die first"
"No, I'm gonna die first"
"No no, I'm gonna die first"
"I beg to differ sir, I'm gonna die first"
"Nuh-uh, it is I who is to be the one that dies first"
"NO! I'm dying first"
"Chut up! I'm dying first"
"Stop it! I'm dying first"
"Gaaaah! I'm dead first"

And so on and so forth until one concedes defeat and kills the other one. I hope you understand my point. Neoizcool, you believe whatever you want to believe as long as it doesn't infringe on others' right to believe what they want. AND, DO NOT come back in here and post saying they're wrong, because I frankly don't give a shit. That kind of post will be deleted. And, in return, we get to believe what we want and let you to your beliefs. That's how humans co-exist, for the most part. Tolerance is a very good friend to have.

I see no problem in addressing Christianity and issues surrounding it here, as this is a general religion thread, and we're not getting too specific in here anyway.

I tried to say, okay, discussion is moot, let's move on. BUT, no no no, you keep calling me out on shit I'm not even arguing for or against necessarily with your propaganda, saying I'm trying to EVADE things and making me out as, basically, a "devil" in front of the whole forum. Now, it isn't that I'm taking this to heart so much as the principality of the matter. You're doing the exact same shit you've already said that you would not, then calling people who don't agree with you ignorant, which, to the unbiased casual observer, makes you indeed look the most hypocritical one in the argument here. No, I did not call you a hypocrite.


To address some of the questions I'd never said I would answer anyway, and still won't answer, but will address.

"WHY ARE PEOPLE WHO REFUTE THE BIBLE MORE CREDIBLE THAN PEOPLE THAT AGREE WITH IT?
Why are you, HU, allowed to call these people recognized historical sources?Millions of Christian scientists don't recognize them. Why are we wrong? Why are people who refute the Bible more credible than people who advocate it? You might saw it's because we have a personal bias for the Bible. I say people who refute it have a personal bias against it.
Personal bias either way."

Personal bias, exactly. Opinion held as truth. You hold the Bible as truth, HU does not. I think this one is more than glaringly obvious. Is either of you right or wrong? To answer THAT, we'll all find that out upon death. No further discussion on that topic is needed.

Since there are no other questions since my last reply posed directly at me, I'll pick some quotes that are, well, as controversial as this discussion.

"but DPD and HU both dug it back up again, as I said in my post."

Once again, there is a difference in personal opinion here, as I was prepared to not feel compelled to respond in this thread on this topic again.

"I just have faith in Jesus, and shake my head sadly at your ignorance."

Ignorance is relative. You're saying that I am ignorant to something you hold as opinion. I recognize and even understand your viewpoint from a Christian standpoint from personal experience, however me disagreeing for reasons that you could not possibly understand does not make me ignorant. It makes me different. You are not ignorant because you believe what you believe, you are different. I have not said that you are completely wrong or anything, I just haven't said that you are right.

Additionally, if you get into this discussion on your lonesome, why call for help? How do you know that PP is from the same sect of Christianity as you? How do you know her belief system is the very similar or the exact same as yours? You do not, and that's a completely unfair burden to place upon someone's shoulders in my opinion. Additionally, you're denouncing TINM for being "that kind" of Christian, merely because he is not the same type of Christian as you, which is an equally ugly thing to do in my opinion, and is one of the things detrimential to Christianity, especially in American society today. It is unfortunate that we are conflicting over unshared opinions, rather than just recognizing one another as having these differences in who we are as human beings, and I've wanted already for this to happen, and understand that you will not let it as a result of having a set idea of how things are supposed to be, unlike myself. So, unfortunately again, this discussion will only go around in circles, as everyone should've seen from the outset. Nice buzzwords.

please dont affirm your religion as the greatest and best.
Well met, however, it doesn't seem to hold true to this discussion.

Well lets face it, I'm not interested
Hey, that makes two of us.

I haven't seen flames yet.
That opinion and call, however, lies in the hands of the forum administration. Thank you for presenting yours, however, they will make the call if this discussion does indeed come to that.

I politely asked, not demanded, PP to come into this discussion if she wanted to. I said that if she didn't want to, I would understand. So don't take that out of context. I just didn't think it would hurt to have some help on my side.
TINM is "that kind" of Christian. And to him, I am "that kind" of Christian. Again, personal bias.
You're dead right on your answer to my question on why some scientists are more credible than others. Personal bias. Thank you very much for seeing it my way. Unfortunately HU doesn't share your opinion.
I tried to say discussion is moot, move on, and then both me and TINM moved on and began to talk about other things. You two are the ones who insisted on saying one last thing, so don't say that I'm the one who had to have the last word.
Okay, it's freakin' over. Drop it. Don't even answer this post to say you agree or disagree with me. Because if either of you does, then I will.

Free Your Minds.

-neoizcool

:cry: Can't we all just get along? I mean :wtf: :D

Okay, it's freakin' over. Drop it. Don't even answer this post to say you agree or disagree with me. Because if either of you does, then I will.
It was over when NMN said it was over, you were warned that your post would be deleted, I won't, though I'm getting pissed off enough with this thread to do so.
So thats it, next post even closely related to this "discussion" will be deleted, I don't care if it's the greatest piece of literature in the history of Earth. NO MORE! No more arguments, no more, "I agree completely"'s. Nada, do we understand each other.

One side must concede first. Who will be the bigger Man and stand down?

Neither side has to concede. They just all have to shut up and leave the topic damn well alone as should we all.

You two are the ones who insisted on saying one last thing, so do